56 replies to this topic

[Skötkonung]

The exhaust fumes from cars going past the house are probably more harmfull.

I keep hearing that, but I wonder if it is actually true? Both are burnt substances, so I don't either is spectacularly great.

The largest part of most combustion gases is relatively harmless nitrogen, water vapor (except with pure-carbon fuels), and carbon dioxide (except with hydrogen as fuel). A relatively small part of it is undesirable noxious or toxic substances, such as carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxides, ozone, partly unburnt fuel, and particulate matter.

Conversely, numerous studies have shown marijuana smoke to contain carcinogens and to be an irritant to the lungs. In fact, marijuana smoke contains 50–70 percent more carcinogenic hydrocarbons than does tobacco smoke. Smokers (including marijuana and those exposed to second hand smoke) show dysregulated growth of epithelial cells in their lung tissue, which could lead to cancer. These are not present in pedestrians living in urban areas, which indicates to me that car exhaust may not be as dangerous.

Smoked marijuana as a cause of lung injury.

I would prefer to stay away from both. Tell your neighbors to get a vaporizer Unlike tobacco, at least marijuana doesn't smell so obnoxious. So it has that going for it..

[Skötkonung]

Anyway, I was essentially double teamed by two people yesterday for reminding my mother not to smoke around me. Both my mother and my brother yelled over my reasoning and presumed themselves right in their stance because they have the ability to yell over someone. The reasoning once again was that it is 'her house' and she has a right to do what she wants in it. My reasoning was that my body is MY house and nobody has the right to blow smoke into its windows! Perhaps someone can explain the following to me. I have not been working as much lately since my job laid off a few people. They cut my hours in the process. My brother used the reasoning that because I am 'not really working' all that much I have no right to defend myself and my right to healthy lungs and that I should 'buck up' and accept it. Of course I told him that was bullshit in so many words and in a reasoned tone but I am really perplexed by that reasoning. How does not wanting to inhale second hand smoke have anything at all to do with my employment situation? Whether I am actively working or not? It doesn't make any sense at all to me. And I need some advice on how to deal with people who essentially think yelling over you makes them right and you wrong with regard to second hand smoke. Basically I feel as if they are using intimidation against me to try and lessen my position. It reminds me of the way this highschool bully use to speak to my friends. It is extremely childish and unevolved thinking. How would you guys deal with it? And what would you do if it came to them physically trying to shut you down by actually pushing you? How would you react?

As with most addictions, the addicted don't want to accept the harm they are inflicting on you as it means they are also harming themselves. The attitude I have seen in most smokers is that the habit may be dangerous, but they are the exception. They truly want to believe that they, and the ones exposed to their smoke, are the ones who won't get lung cancer, or have compromised cardiovascular function, etc.

Does your brother smoke as well?

[distinct]

No but I think you should talk to an attorney and see if you have a case. He will advice you on what doctor to see. If you have a case, sue the chimney in your office and let us know.

horrible advice.

how about you just man up and go tell her she stinks and ask her if she could please keep her windows rolled down?

Yeah, really. Suing? How remarkably silly. If the smell is that bad, and you can't or don't think it'd be a good idea to confront her directly, speak to management. As for longevity, I think it's a bit of paranoia. We likely breathe in far worse things, far more often, just from driving in traffic. Not that it makes breathing in extra toxins ok. Rather, I wouldn't lose sleep over the health concerns of so called "third hand smoke" until I had already ironed out all of the other, far worse toxins in my environment.

[Solarclimax]

The exhaust fumes from cars going past the house are probably more harmfull.

I keep hearing that, but I wonder if it is actually true? Both are burnt substances, so I don't either is spectacularly great.

The largest part of most combustion gases is relatively harmless nitrogen, water vapor (except with pure-carbon fuels), and carbon dioxide (except with hydrogen as fuel). A relatively small part of it is undesirable noxious or toxic substances, such as carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxides, ozone, partly unburnt fuel, and particulate matter.

Conversely, numerous studies have shown marijuana smoke to contain carcinogens and to be an irritant to the lungs. In fact, marijuana smoke contains 50–70 percent more carcinogenic hydrocarbons than does tobacco smoke. Smokers (including marijuana and those exposed to second hand smoke) show dysregulated growth of epithelial cells in their lung tissue, which could lead to cancer. These are not present in pedestrians living in urban areas, which indicates to me that car exhaust may not be as dangerous.

Smoked marijuana as a cause of lung injury.

I would prefer to stay away from both. Tell your neighbors to get a vaporizer Unlike tobacco, at least marijuana doesn't smell so obnoxious. So it has that going for it..

Pretty much just speculation on my part, about marijuana and the lungs, i (think) i know it can cause bronchitis ? but i thought it actually removed those cells on the lungs that can actually cause lung cancer ? can't remember what study i saw, it was a recent study. I would be pretty skeptical also of any study regarding an illegal substance and the government but maybe that's just me being paranoid i don't know. In-fact the study you just posted even says "On the other hand, physiologic, clinical or epidemiologic evidence that marijuana smoking may lead to chronic obstructive pulmonary disease or respiratory cancer is limited and inconsistent." I have seen people of high regard talk about effects of marijuana based on their years of research and even they seem to have a hard time giving any solid evidence of anything that is bad about it.

As for exhaust fumes, they had to hand out masks to all the Olympic athletes as soon as they got off the plane in Beijing due to the toxic smog, that place is notorious for.
With my neighbours also i don't think it's actually any smoke I'm breathing in its just the smell, which i don't mind. Standing next to or being in the same room though with smokers is something that annoys me a bit. I guess that's where i draw my line.

[niner]

The exhaust fumes from cars going past the house are probably more harmfull.

I keep hearing that, but I wonder if it is actually true? Both are burnt substances, so I don't either is spectacularly great.

That depends on where you live. If you live in America, auto emission regulations are strict and car exhaust, at least in modern cars in good working order, is very clean. If you live in the third world, get a gas mask. If you live in Europe where diesel is popular, get a gas mask. New "Clean Diesels" are in fact clean, but they are few and far between at the moment. Even the cleanest modern cars are a little dirty until the catalytic converter warms up, which takes a minute or three. There's an interesting phenomenon with modern cars: People try to commit suicide by running a hose from the exhaust pipe into the interior of the car. They don't die. I met a guy who tried this, and he lived to see another day.

In a reasonable first-world environment today, the danger from car exhaust is minimal. That's not the case for second hand smoke.

[Solarclimax]

Interesting, should also be clear as to what type of smoke people refer to when they say "smoke" Kinda like a modern car is different to an old diesel in a similar sort of way that 1 type of something you smoke might be different to another type, like second hand pure weed smoke might have different effects to cigarette smoke , I have also seen studies about typical off the shelf at your local store type cigarettes and the effects second hand smoke from them can apparently have, and their does seem to be some good evidence.

Also said people who attempted suicide are lucky, carbon monoxide poisoning if it doesn't kill you can also cause brain damage

Edited by Solarclimax, 11 March 2010 - 11:18 PM.

[Skötkonung]

Interesting, should also be clear as to what type of smoke people refer to when they say "smoke" Kinda like a modern car is different to an old diesel in a similar sort of way that 1 type of something you smoke might be different to another type, like second hand pure weed smoke might have different effects to cigarette smoke , I have also seen studies about typical off the shelf at your local store type cigarettes and the effects second hand smoke from them can apparently have, and their does seem to be some good evidence.

Also said people who attempted suicide are lucky, carbon monoxide poisoning if it doesn't kill you can also cause brain damage

Perhaps the evidence against marijuana isn't consistent, but lets be clear: Any kind of burning, noxious gas being inhaled is bad for your respiratory health, if not for your whole body. It doesn't matter if it is tobacco, marijuana, camp fires, incense, or internal combustion engines. The smart thing to do is to reduce exposure to all of these external factors as much as possible.

I'm not saying there aren't medicinal qualities in either tobacco (nicotine slows alzeheimer's for instance) or marijuana, I just think most of those benefits are negated through the burning process. All burned plant material contains AGEs, and we know in the case of tobacco smoke (no reason to think marijuana would be different), that these are well absorbed from the lungs and contribute to premature aging of the skin. This alone should be reason to avoid even trace amounts of tobacco smoke. Over the course of a lifetime, these all add up.

Edited by Skotkonung, 12 March 2010 - 12:17 AM.

[Forever21]

No but I think you should talk to an attorney and see if you have a case. He will advice you on what doctor to see. If you have a case, sue the chimney in your office and let us know.

horrible advice.

how about you just man up and go tell her she stinks and ask her if she could please keep her windows rolled down?

Yeah, really. Suing? How remarkably silly. If the smell is that bad, and you can't or don't think it'd be a good idea to confront her directly, speak to management. As for longevity, I think it's a bit of paranoia. We likely breathe in far worse things, far more often, just from driving in traffic. Not that it makes breathing in extra toxins ok. Rather, I wouldn't lose sleep over the health concerns of so called "third hand smoke" until I had already ironed out all of the other, far worse toxins in my environment.

What's galactically silly is speaking to the management.

I say, SUE. Smoking is an act of aggression. Suing is just a way to protect yourself from these animals.

http://www.nytimes.c.../09ansonia.html

http://www.boston.co..._estate_broker/

[platypus]

I say, SUE. Smoking is an act of aggression. Suing is just a way to protect yourself from these animals.

Are you sure you should be living in human settlements? You need your own ranch away from all those assholes

[TheFountain]

@ TheFountain.
Seems you have little choice but to put up with it. Try and keep as much distance as you can from you and the smoke/do things to get rid of any smoke you can't avoid contact with.
Don't try and argue any point with them as they already know everything, make indirect suggestions that will help them realise they are wrong. But in most cases said ignorance is usually associated with people who you can't get much sense out of. Think of everything in terms of is me trying to reason with them going to get me any further forward. If the answer is no then i wouldn't waste my breath. Or do what i did, -Leave- It sucks when morons have some type of authority over us.
If it gets physical then that depends, Not sure on your age if you're younger it's hard, don't you have anyone you can turn to to have a word with them ?

I do have people I can 'turn' to and speak to but these unfortunately are not family members with enough will power to go against my mother strong enough to exert any type of influence. I have thus had to fight the battle myself. I am in the process of moving out within the next month or so. Moving back in with here was circumstantial while in college. Before I was living on my own for a couple of years till I came upon a difficult situation which forced me back into the situation I was in. It's amazing how sensitive you become to someone elses unhealthy habits when you have been away from them for a time and then realize just how disgusting they are. My fight has been somewhat worth the effort considering she stopped smoking in my area of the house (the lower level) and has been *almost* completely relegated to smoking in her own room. Though occasionaly she smokes out of her room to spite me, which is what happened this previous instance when I had pointed it out and then had been subsequently teamed up on.

[TheFountain]

Anyway, I was essentially double teamed by two people yesterday for reminding my mother not to smoke around me. Both my mother and my brother yelled over my reasoning and presumed themselves right in their stance because they have the ability to yell over someone. The reasoning once again was that it is 'her house' and she has a right to do what she wants in it. My reasoning was that my body is MY house and nobody has the right to blow smoke into its windows! Perhaps someone can explain the following to me. I have not been working as much lately since my job laid off a few people. They cut my hours in the process. My brother used the reasoning that because I am 'not really working' all that much I have no right to defend myself and my right to healthy lungs and that I should 'buck up' and accept it. Of course I told him that was bullshit in so many words and in a reasoned tone but I am really perplexed by that reasoning. How does not wanting to inhale second hand smoke have anything at all to do with my employment situation? Whether I am actively working or not? It doesn't make any sense at all to me. And I need some advice on how to deal with people who essentially think yelling over you makes them right and you wrong with regard to second hand smoke. Basically I feel as if they are using intimidation against me to try and lessen my position. It reminds me of the way this highschool bully use to speak to my friends. It is extremely childish and unevolved thinking. How would you guys deal with it? And what would you do if it came to them physically trying to shut you down by actually pushing you? How would you react?

As with most addictions, the addicted don't want to accept the harm they are inflicting on you as it means they are also harming themselves. The attitude I have seen in most smokers is that the habit may be dangerous, but they are the exception. They truly want to believe that they, and the ones exposed to their smoke, are the ones who won't get lung cancer, or have compromised cardiovascular function, etc.

Does your brother smoke as well?

My brother went from a heavy cigarette smoker to a heavy marijuana smoker. So it is kind of silly for me to expect him to comprehend my position. Nor do I rely on him or any other family member to do so. I simply stand my ground against people and defend myself. I think it was on the verge of getting physical because people realize I am not going to back down from my position despite their aggressive stance and what happens is they believe getting 'pushy' is the only option they have to control my position. I have no intention of allowing this however at any point. The real draw back is in the amount of stress it causes to have to consider battling with family members over something like simple consideration for another family member. This is why I am in the process of moving. I hope to be out within about a month and a half.

[Solarclimax]

We can understand your concerns of what might come across as a bit harsh views from you of second hand smoke. It's hard to have sympathy for people who piss us off. Try and forgive their lack of understanding, it's not like they are scientists who understand the harms and are only doing it to poison themselves and everyone else. Sure they are a pain in the ass, but what's the point in stressing over it ? The stress you put on yourself getting wound up about them is doing more harm to you than their bad habits. Try to distance yourself from anything negative, be it smoke or irritating family members. And when contact can't be avoided, grit your teeth and try not to let negative thoughts occupy your mind for to long (even if you do want to stub it out on their 4head). Look at it like you would a disobedient child, sometimes you have to let them have their sweets just to shut them up. Whilst you do your own thing.

Edited by Solarclimax, 12 March 2010 - 11:21 PM.

[Skötkonung]

I say, SUE. Smoking is an act of aggression. Suing is just a way to protect yourself from these animals.

Are you sure you should be living in human settlements? You need your own ranch away from all those assholes

You just described it perfectly. My goal is to live above the arctic circle with the Sámi and eat surströmming and the classic Nordic food of svid (burnt sheeps head). Good way to avoid tobacco smoke, UV damage, and stay low carb.

http://en.wikipedia....Thorramatur.jpg

Edited by Skotkonung, 13 March 2010 - 01:04 AM.

[Ghostrider]

Look at it like you would a disobedient child, sometimes you have to let them have their sweets just to shut them up.

As long as there's no public health care support. Would you want to pay for that disobedient child's cavity fillings? I respect people's freedoms, I just don't want to pay for their obviously bad decisions.

[TheFountain]

Try and forgive their lack of understanding

I can but I am not sure if my lungs can forgive them considering every single time I inhale second hand smoke I get phlem build up in my throat that takes hours to hack up. Not to mention the nausea the smell causes me. Not to mention how it decreases my lung capacity and prohibits me from exercising as well as I would like to when I inhale it. When I tell this to my family they say that I am being selfish by only caring about my health. I can't believe their disgustingly selfish perspective, even in turning it around and calling MY position selfish.

but what's the point in stressing over it ?

MY HEALTH!

The stress you put on yourself getting wound up about them is doing more harm to you than their bad habits.

Does anybody here think this is true? I don't.

Try to distance yourself from anything negative, be it smoke or irritating family members. And when contact can't be avoided, grit your teeth and try not to let negative thoughts occupy your mind for to long (even if you do want to stub it out on their 4head). Look at it like you would a disobedient child, sometimes you have to let them have their sweets just to shut them up. Whilst you do your own thing.

The difference is that a disobedient childs sweets do not fuck my health up. Do you live with a smoker?

[niner]

(burnt sheeps head)

Too high in exogenous AGEs. Best go with the raw sheeps head...

[niner]

Though occasionaly she smokes out of her room to spite me

She should be thankful that you let her smoke in her room. I think that it's time to tell her that in your house, it's your rules, and she should pack up her shit and hit the bricks.

[TheFountain]

Though occasionaly she smokes out of her room to spite me

She should be thankful that you let her smoke in her room. I think that it's time to tell her that in your house, it's your rules, and she should pack up her shit and hit the bricks.

nice sarcasm....

not

Edited by TheFountain, 13 March 2010 - 05:30 AM.

[Shepard]

just man up

Sadly, it's a lost art.

I blame the MTV and the reality TV.

[nightlight]

Let me run this by you guys and let me know if I'm crazy.

It's not crazy at all. That's not an uncommon experience among ex-smokers. Your own observations provide a clear clue as to what is going on behind the symptoms.

Anyway, I've been having trouble breathing lately (as in, the last month and a half). I do a lot of breathing exercises and meditation, and I've realized I've been short of breath during these. I've attributed this to my recent drop in aerobic exercise/rise in inaerobic, which started a couple of months ago, but I'm starting to question that.

Also, especially in the last week or so, I've started to wake up very irritable and very tired. I used to dip Copenhagen for a week or so every once in a while, and this is how I felt when I was doing that after a couple of days. My anxiety and depression (that haven't surfaced in a while) are also starting to get pretty bad. I've been feeling a slight withdrawal feeling on the weekends also, especially on Sunday. I work M-F, and am not around any smoke on Saturday-Sunday.

The main clue is here:

I know for a fact I go into withdrawal (however slight) very easily. When I used to drink regularly, a couple of cigarettes on Saturday would case obvious effects on my well-being on Monday. I'd be trapped in my shell of anxiety, depressive, and irritable. It took me a while to realize what was causing this, but it happened consistently, anytime I smoked a cigarette or two. Same thing with Copenhagen. Which is why I stopped both over a year ago.

You answer is hiding in plain sight under the judgment-laden, emotions-loaded term "withdrawal" which blocks you from further analysis and from finding a more rational resolution of the problem. To break through the spell of the emotional term 'withdrawal', you need to restate it in a more detached, pragmatic form. What is the 'withdrawal' sensation? It is a signal from your biochemical networks to your CNS to resupply something that these networks have evaluated as beneficial/useful, something they need (labeled as "addiction" for needs your prejudices disapprove of). If you don't take a breath for a minute, or water for half a day, or you don't have sex for a while, or didn't get to see the object of your latest infatuation for a day (a person, "addictive" game or anything else one can fall in love with)... you will get withdrawal sensations.

If the object of craving is something you consciously approve of, such as air, water, sex... it's just a need, and without much ado or side effects your CNS engages its executive-motoric facilities to resupply the provisions or a suitable substitutes if the real thing is not available at the moment (as it is often the case with sex) requested by your biochemical networks.

The problem arises when your conscious evaluation of the need being signalled conflicts with that of your biochemical networks e.g. if your conscious mind considers something as bad for you that your biochemical networks evaluate as good for you, you will get variety of psychosomatic symptoms (difficulties breathing, irritabililty, lost focus,..) -- your biochemical networks are fighting back against your CNS. This is perhaps even more obvious when you flip the two judgments i.e. if your CNS insists that something should be done that your networks evaluate negatively, e.g. a teen may pop in a hurry an usightly gigantic pimple before going out, which his CNS evaluates as net gain, but to which his networks will reply with pain signals (and possibly scars later).

That your biochemical networks have sent a signal in the form of 'having trouble breathing' is their little sly way of reminding your CNS using a familiar metaphor 'gasping for air' indicating, they need something they recall as inhalation of something, related in some way to inhalation of tobacco smoke (nicotine, MAO B inhibition, dopaminergic or cholinergic effects, anti-inflammatory effects, boost in heavy metals detox or antioxidants via glutathione, catalase, SOD upregulation from TS (all nearly doubled), protection against: early onset beta-amyloidosis/Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, pre-clinical rheumatoid arhtritis, osteoarthritis, depression, anxiety, schizophrenia, CFS, MS, asthma, allergies, obesity, latent diabetes, insufficient angiogenesis, low telomerase activity, low pregnenolone/DHEA/testosterone,... are some among the myriad therapeutic and protective effects of tobacco smoke, see brief summary, especially link #17 regarding pharmaceutical substitutes, from another thread discussing the subject in greater depth).

Your CNS cannot win this by suppressing the signalls via superficial emotional covers/guardians "withdrawal" or "addiciton", the symptoms will only get worse. The whiff of tobacco smoke smell has essentially triggered the memories stored in your biochemical networks, while they have been looking for a solution for some latent health problem, or problem known to you, and they are signalling to your CNS -- that may be just the medicine we were looking for, you need to inhale that thing. Since "that thing" is unacceptable to your CNS, it is suppressing the signal, turning a deaf ear to them, and the networks are responding by raising the volume.

Attempts to bully the poor co-worker (a victim of our curent mass hysteria against smokers) or the company into rearranging the world around your internal conflict, will pass the buck to outer social network from your CNS, and the problems would get only worse, once other actors get involved and bring in their own problems and solutions (which you may like even less). It is the problem with your CNS evaluating the direct solution (e.g. smoking) highly negatively, which contradicts the evaluation of that solution by your biochemical networks (they almost always know much better than fads and hysterias du jour whipped by "experts" with agendas that have more to do with benefits to them than to you), which you need to resolve. Since so far you have been merely suppressing their signals, they will keep ratcheting up the symptoms until you face the options -- keep getting worse or provide at least some substitute, more acceptable to your CNS, for what they are asking you to provide. Since within our present Matrix, smoking tobacco is a no-go, you can try some combination of nicotine, selegiline, anti-inflammatory steroids, diet, ... until you find a minimum substitute that deals with the underlying health problem they are trying to solve by sending your CNS the message 'inhale that thing'.

Edited by nightlight, 13 March 2010 - 11:17 AM.

[Forever21]

I say, SUE. Smoking is an act of aggression. Suing is just a way to protect yourself from these animals.

Are you sure you should be living in human settlements? You need your own ranch away from all those assholes

You just described it perfectly. My goal is to live above the arctic circle with the Sámi and eat surströmming and the classic Nordic food of svid (burnt sheeps head). Good way to avoid tobacco smoke, UV damage, and stay low carb.

http://en.wikipedia....Thorramatur.jpg

Some may be appalled by that picture but growing up with the US military in the gulf, this is called dinner. Local style, roasted sheep or camel heads. The best part is the brain, it has that buttery texture and melts in your mouth.

Edited by Forever21, 13 March 2010 - 11:12 AM.

[Solarclimax]

Look at it like you would a disobedient child, sometimes you have to let them have their sweets just to shut them up.

As long as there's no public health care support. Would you want to pay for that disobedient child's cavity fillings? I respect people's freedoms, I just don't want to pay for their obviously bad decisions.

If me paying a bit of tax meant that i could save someones health that would be great, i can't think of many things that would make me feel better.

I don't see a real point to what you're saying, people start up smoking for many reasons, doesn't mean everyone who smokes deserves to be punished. (after all they're allready punishing themselves apparently) I think allot of smokers think that nothing bad will happen to them or just don't think about it. Plus many many other reasons.
It doesn't mean we should condemn smokers, any more than we should condemn you because the power station that provides your electricity is polluting our atmosphere.

You're basically categorising people for their presumed lack of decision making skills. Like saying I'm smarter than you because i make better health choices but i don't want to help you because you should be intelligent enough to make as good a choices as me. What next ? we moan about paying for people with disabilities as i can work then so should they ? After all what's the difference really ? 1 is self inflicting the other can't help it, i presume would be the main argument to that. But is that really true ? what if someone is naturally programmed in such a way that life's circumstances means their chances of not turning out to be a smoker are very slim, In the same way someone is programmed in such a way that life's circumstances means their chances of not being disabled are also very slim.

Or look at it this way, 2 twins separated at birth, 1 grows up in a gang ridden neighbourhood, see's people get raped stabbed, sees people who are supposed to be the good guys do bad things, (like a cop for example) gets it drilled into his head growing up that you need to do this or you wont get no money, so on ect, i hope you can see where I'm going with this.
Then the other twin gets brought up in an affluent place with very good foster parents, all he gets drilled into his head is go to school do good, you will grow up and get a good job ect, sure their will be isolated cases where twin 1 grows up and gets a job and twin 2 ends up in jail. But for the most part they are going to follow the path that they know. In your opinion the good twin should always mock and look down upon the bad twin ?

[TheFountain]

Look at it like you would a disobedient child, sometimes you have to let them have their sweets just to shut them up.

As long as there's no public health care support. Would you want to pay for that disobedient child's cavity fillings? I respect people's freedoms, I just don't want to pay for their obviously bad decisions.

If me paying a bit of tax meant that i could save someones health that would be great, i can't think of many things that would make me feel better.

I don't see a real point to what you're saying, people start up smoking for many reasons, doesn't mean everyone who smokes deserves to be punished. (after all they're allready punishing themselves apparently) I think allot of smokers think that nothing bad will happen to them or just don't think about it. Plus many many other reasons.
It doesn't mean we should condemn smokers, any more than we should condemn you because the power station that provides your electricity is polluting our atmosphere.

You're basically categorising people for their presumed lack of decision making skills. Like saying I'm smarter than you because i make better health choices but i don't want to help you because you should be intelligent enough to make as good a choices as me. What next ? we moan about paying for people with disabilities as i can work then so should they ? After all what's the difference really ? 1 is self inflicting the other can't help it, i presume would be the main argument to that. But is that really true ? what if someone is naturally programmed in such a way that life's circumstances means their chances of not turning out to be a smoker are very slim, In the same way someone is programmed in such a way that life's circumstances means their chances of not being disabled are also very slim.

Or look at it this way, 2 twins separated at birth, 1 grows up in a gang ridden neighbourhood, see's people get raped stabbed, sees people who are supposed to be the good guys do bad things, (like a cop for example) gets it drilled into his head growing up that you need to do this or you wont get no money, so on ect, i hope you can see where I'm going with this.
Then the other twin gets brought up in an affluent place with very good foster parents, all he gets drilled into his head is go to school do good, you will grow up and get a good job ect, sure their will be isolated cases where twin 1 grows up and gets a job and twin 2 ends up in jail. But for the most part they are going to follow the path that they know. In your opinion the good twin should always mock and look down upon the bad twin ?

You're just using a round about method to defend smokers through semantics and other language manipulation. Bottom line though is that regardless of how you view it there are way too many studies implicating second hand smoke as a health danger. No amount of semantical BS can forego this stark truth. Either you do not live/work with a smoker, you have not suffered from it, or you are a smoker. Otherwise, if you are a health conscious person, I see no reason to defend the habit, or more specifically the effect it has on NON-smokers, to any extent.

Edited by TheFountain, 13 March 2010 - 09:12 PM.

[Solarclimax]

Look at it like you would a disobedient child, sometimes you have to let them have their sweets just to shut them up.

As long as there's no public health care support. Would you want to pay for that disobedient child's cavity fillings? I respect people's freedoms, I just don't want to pay for their obviously bad decisions.

If me paying a bit of tax meant that i could save someones health that would be great, i can't think of many things that would make me feel better.

I don't see a real point to what you're saying, people start up smoking for many reasons, doesn't mean everyone who smokes deserves to be punished. (after all they're allready punishing themselves apparently) I think allot of smokers think that nothing bad will happen to them or just don't think about it. Plus many many other reasons.
It doesn't mean we should condemn smokers, any more than we should condemn you because the power station that provides your electricity is polluting our atmosphere.

You're basically categorising people for their presumed lack of decision making skills. Like saying I'm smarter than you because i make better health choices but i don't want to help you because you should be intelligent enough to make as good a choices as me. What next ? we moan about paying for people with disabilities as i can work then so should they ? After all what's the difference really ? 1 is self inflicting the other can't help it, i presume would be the main argument to that. But is that really true ? what if someone is naturally programmed in such a way that life's circumstances means their chances of not turning out to be a smoker are very slim, In the same way someone is programmed in such a way that life's circumstances means their chances of not being disabled are also very slim.

Or look at it this way, 2 twins separated at birth, 1 grows up in a gang ridden neighbourhood, see's people get raped stabbed, sees people who are supposed to be the good guys do bad things, (like a cop for example) gets it drilled into his head growing up that you need to do this or you wont get no money, so on ect, i hope you can see where I'm going with this.
Then the other twin gets brought up in an affluent place with very good foster parents, all he gets drilled into his head is go to school do good, you will grow up and get a good job ect, sure their will be isolated cases where twin 1 grows up and gets a job and twin 2 ends up in jail. But for the most part they are going to follow the path that they know. In your opinion the good twin should always mock and look down upon the bad twin ?

You're just using a round about method to defend smokers through semantics and other language manipulation. Bottom line though is that regardless of how you view it there are way too many studies implicating second hand smoke as a health danger. No amount of semantical BS can forego this stark truth. Either you do not live/work with a smoker, you have not suffered from it, or you are a smoker. Otherwise, if you are a health conscious person, I see no reason to defend the habit, or more specifically the effect it has on NON-smokers, to any extent.

I don't aim to take sides, in anything in life, i try to stand for logic and reason, regardless of what side that may be on. I used to smoke (stopped around 5 years ago) i don't like to be around smokers since i stopped. I have however been around people who smoke and are not willing to keep the smoke away from me.
I'm not defending the habit of smoking, as i have said, i don't like to be around smokers. I was just trying to point out the flaws in the reasoning behind Ghostriders comments. What i said applies to many things not just smoking.
As far as i can tell, though I'm far from an expert, the act of smoking or even drinking alcohol ect, is in my opinion a set of actions that do not in most cases bring any health benefits, but do have the potential to bring health risks so therefore it would be logical and reasonable to assume that these are things that people should not be doing, but that's just my opinion, each to their own.

Maybe i could of worded my last post differently, If smokers want to smoke then i guess that's the choice of the individual, the educated should try and offer information as a way of suggesting why people shouldn't smoke. And smokers should respect that allot of non-smokers don't want to breath in their fumes. But that doesn't mean we should blow things out of proportion by saying if smokers want to smoke then it's only right that they should have bad health and or face death because i mistakenly believe that I'm somehow having to pay for any health care that they would need. Not only do "Us tax payers" not pay for the health-care (refer to my previous post as to why that is) but even if we did for example lets say %2 of "Our" tax money was going straight into an account called "fix smokers fund" even in that situation it's still wrong to say you don't want to do that. Even if i look at it from your point of view it still doesn't make sense. Of all the crooked things that your tax actually gets spent on you choose to ignore that and instead pick on smokers, because you are/where around second hand smoke. It's like getting shot at and then phoning the police, but not to report a shooting, just to complain that someone stole your milk.

[niner]

But that doesn't mean we should blow things out of proportion by saying if smokers want to smoke then it's only right that they should have bad health and or face death because i mistakenly believe that I'm somehow having to pay for any health care that they would need. Not only do "Us tax payers" not pay for the health-care (refer to my previous post as to why that is) but even if we did for example lets say %2 of "Our" tax money was going straight into an account called "fix smokers fund" even in that situation it's still wrong to say you don't want to do that. Even if i look at it from your point of view it still doesn't make sense. Of all the crooked things that your tax actually gets spent on you choose to ignore that and instead pick on smokers, because you are/where around second hand smoke. It's like getting shot at and then phoning the police, but not to report a shooting, just to complain that someone stole your milk.

Why do you think that the rest of us are not paying for the healthcare costs of smokers? I couldn't find anything in your previous posts that explained that. You seem to be saying that we should ignore one injustice because another one exists. That really doesn't stand up to logic.

[Solarclimax]

Why do you think that the rest of us are not paying for the healthcare costs of smokers? I couldn't find anything in your previous posts that explained that.

I forgot that i didn't post the bit about why people are not paying for smokers.

I guess that's another subject, paying for the medical support of what is assumed to be ill effects from smoking. I personally think maybe people think about the little things to much, and miss what their tax money actually gets spent on. Kinda like you grab hold of a kid in the store and give him a gob-full because you have just seen him steal some candy, but you don't notice that an armed robber has just taken the safe because the robber was more cunning. And that the store worker you are polite to and hand the kid over to who phones the police and has the kid arrested, was in on the robbery.

Please note the following is not my opinion of you, but my generalisation of people who generally complain about people who can do without their opinions.
I personally don't relate to the typical whining negative people who complain about taxes this taxes that, i think they are missing points that matter in favour of unintentionally blowing out of proportion things that don't matter, as much (<-- please note the words "as much"). People all over the world are starving, ill ect and most the people complaining that they have to pay tax and complaining about everything else don't care, they only care about themselves, and whine about others. Some people are happy to complain about smokers drinkers ect, but you don't hear the same people complain about their local food store that provides them with basic necessity's, but also happens to sell people the things that you're whining about, or the fact that the road you drive to work on, the bridge you cross was partly funded by the taxes from products that are bad for ones health. The taxes on cigarettes alone in the UK at least, is enough to cover any costs of health issues maybe related to smoking a few times over (quote from a website talking about taxes in the uk) "In the UK, the tobacco industry generated over £10bn in tax revenue in 1998, enough to pay for three quarters of the Education and Employment Budget. ".If anything, not only do you not pay for smokers, but they can be seen as actually paying for you in a way, ie paying for your education, or your kids education, at least here in the UK. You're happy to turn a blind eye to the worlds problems as long as you're ok. You go around falsely thinking you're some kind of good person, but as soon as these people who are less than you do anything that you deludedly think that you're paying for you whine about it. If you want the world to be fair then why don't you figure out how much you need to buy enough food to live on and pay the bills, then give the rest to charity ? didn't think so. There's probably lots and lots and lots of reasons why people who whine about paying taxes and then try to blame some person at the bottom of the human food chain for it need a reality check.

You seem to be saying that we should ignore one injustice because another one exists. That really doesn't stand up to logic.

That's not what I'm saying as i have made as clear as i can by now.

Edited by Solarclimax, 14 March 2010 - 04:23 PM.

[eternaltraveler]

it doesn't matter how much smokers cost public health care because it is entirely the public's fault in being stupid enough to pay for it (and then complaining about how much they pay?!). The rationale that I voluntarily pay for your mistakes, then demand laws be put in place to limit your actions so I don't pay as much is complete nonsense (and you can use the same damn reasoning to make everyone be required to smoke, because non smokers cost more in health care by having the audacity of living 14 years longer).

Smoking is terrible. Don't do it. If you do you should pay for your own actions. People need to face the consequences of their own decisions. Just how much does preventing people from being accountable for their own actions cost society I wonder?