119 replies to this topic

[Charmion]

Have you had your testosterone levels checked?

no, but I think that I have low T, but I am taking zinc for that.

And thanks everybody for their help, didnt know that magnesium helps for the tremors, I will find some
later. but I am not sure of what kind of magnesium I need.

This is just my opinion, but I would strongly suggest you get this checked out/taken care of, as this may be the root of the issue. Magnesium is fine and well, but if you have low testosterone levels, although it has vast nutritional potential, it will mainly just mask the problem. I'm not saying jump on HRT, but get the levels checked if you can. Then fix the things causing the low numbers: always go to bed on time (around ten or earlier), and sleep until you wake up naturally; eat lots of red meat and eggs slathered in butter; if you train, train with heavy weights (heavy being relative, of course--don't mess with weights you honestly can't do that wreck your form; somewhere in the 3-8 rep range is good); if you don't, it would benefit you to start lifting in this fashion, or start a physical, competitive sport (football, lacrosse, wrestling, boxing, MMA, etc.); don't overtrain!--it will wreck you CNS--start with 2 days/week and work to about 3, 4 maximum, and see where you are then; and most importantly: learn to control stress! Not just social, but general. Social, by the way, may be a major part of your stress, and stress kills test levels; so it plays out a vicious circle: low test=social inadequacy=stress=low test, etc.

Hope this helps!

[Cless986]

Have you had your testosterone levels checked?

no, but I think that I have low T, but I am taking zinc for that.

And thanks everybody for their help, didnt know that magnesium helps for the tremors, I will find some
later. but I am not sure of what kind of magnesium I need.

Try magnesium malate. This is the product that I take:

http://www.iherb.com...sules/1268?at=0


Probably should take a little calcium citrate with that. Magnesium citrate is also helpful, and I'm probably going to take BOTH citrate and malate in the future. For anxiety, I think I prefer magnesium malate. Give it a try!

Thanks, but I have a question, do magnesia milk works too?

[TigerMask]

This is just my opinion, but I would strongly suggest you get this checked out/taken care of, as this may be the root of the issue. Magnesium is fine and well, but if you have low testosterone levels, although it has vast nutritional potential, it will mainly just mask the problem. I'm not saying jump on HRT, but get the levels checked if you can. Then fix the things causing the low numbers: always go to bed on time (around ten or earlier), and sleep until you wake up naturally; eat lots of red meat and eggs slathered in butter; if you train, train with heavy weights (heavy being relative, of course--don't mess with weights you honestly can't do that wreck your form; somewhere in the 3-8 rep range is good); if you don't, it would benefit you to start lifting in this fashion, or start a physical, competitive sport (football, lacrosse, wrestling, boxing, MMA, etc.); don't overtrain!--it will wreck you CNS--start with 2 days/week and work to about 3, 4 maximum, and see where you are then; and most importantly: learn to control stress! Not just social, but general. Social, by the way, may be a major part of your stress, and stress kills test levels; so it plays out a vicious circle: low test=social inadequacy=stress=low test, etc.

Hope this helps!

How does over-training wreck your CNS?

I've never really thought about testosterone having anything to do with social anxiety. Well, I've only begun reading about it and how increasing it to the right levels can help one's mood. Interesting.

After everything I've read, I might start taking half as much calcium as magnesium. I get plenty of calcium through my diet.


"Thanks, but I have a question, do magnesia milk works too?"

I wouldn't take milk of magnesia regularly, unless you have stomach or constipation problems. Even if you did have constipation, I would take magnesium citrate for that.

A) Magnesium citrate makes it easier to... poop. If you take a lot of it, within an hour, you'll be on the toilet. If you just take an average amount, it still might make going a little easier.

B) Magnesium malate does not seem to have as much of an effect on pooping. That's why some people prefer it.

And like I said, I think malate is better for anxiety.

Edited by TigerMask, 17 April 2010 - 05:13 AM.

[e Volution]

I think many people who have social anxiety, try too hard to be liked by others and have unrealistically high expectations of social encounters. Like they're struggling and fighting with their introverted nature, trying to be the life of the party as an extrovert. They may do this by drinking or doing drugs. This is why some people with social anxiety struggle with addiction: It helps them put on the disguise of an extrovert for a little while.

Clearly, it seems, you've become comfortable with being an introvert. Becoming comfortable with this, meditating on this, is probably one of the best things someone who thinks they're struggling with social anxiety can do.

I am not having a go at you, but I think explanations like this really don't answer much because you are completely glossing over the neuroscientific reasoning behind many of these neurological issues... I think most of this stuff is completely out of our control, and the only way to overcome it is through rigirous training (in effect changing your brain chemistry/wiring) or through supplements/drugs.

I posted a thread here about this a week or so ago: Shy or introverted may process their world differently. I think any discussion about social anxiety really needs to take this stuff into account.

[Animal]

I think many people who have social anxiety, try too hard to be liked by others and have unrealistically high expectations of social encounters. Like they're struggling and fighting with their introverted nature, trying to be the life of the party as an extrovert. They may do this by drinking or doing drugs. This is why some people with social anxiety struggle with addiction: It helps them put on the disguise of an extrovert for a little while.

Clearly, it seems, you've become comfortable with being an introvert. Becoming comfortable with this, meditating on this, is probably one of the best things someone who thinks they're struggling with social anxiety can do.

I am not having a go at you, but I think explanations like this really don't answer much because you are completely glossing over the neuroscientific reasoning behind many of these neurological issues... I think most of this stuff is completely out of our control, and the only way to overcome it is through rigirous training (in effect changing your brain chemistry/wiring) or through supplements/drugs.

I posted a thread here about this a week or so ago: Shy or introverted may process their world differently. I think any discussion about social anxiety really needs to take this stuff into account.

It's an exaggeration to say it's completely out of your control. I can imagine that being the way that many people justify any psychological dynamic they are unhappy with, because it means they don't have to take full responsibility for their actions. Have an anger problem "out of my control", have an impulsive nature "out of my control", like beating people up "out of my control". It's an excuse for anything to simply blame your neurology for a behavioural disorder. Commonly the undesirable behaviour will have been learned and reinforced over a period of time, rather then spontaneously manifesting due to some neurochemical derangement.

Disorders like social anxiety are a combination of both, but typically the behaviour began at a less severe level far before any neurological changes were wrought.

[Cless986]

thanks all for your helpful responses, I really enjoyed reading them.
I am 20 years old and managed to fit more or less, I get used to regular social contact,
but MY biggest issue is that I cant talk to beitiful women or potential girlfriends, when I see one I get anxious
and is very difficult for me to have good eye contact or small talk, let alone inviting them to dinner.
but my appareance is not the problem, I dress nicely (people compliments me all the time) and I am polite and treat people well,
But even if the girl likes me, I can manage to look at her for some seconds and smile, and act aloof or disinterested, but need to hide my hands coz theyre shaking and I cant find anything good to say to her even if I memorized a pickup line seconds ago...

Can beta blockers help me?

[csrpj]

thanks all for your helpful responses, I really enjoyed reading them.
I am 20 years old and managed to fit more or less, I get used to regular social contact,
but MY biggest issue is that I cant talk to beitiful women or potential girlfriends, when I see one I get anxious
and is very difficult for me to have good eye contact or small talk, let alone inviting them to dinner.
but my appareance is not the problem, I dress nicely (people compliments me all the time) and I am polite and treat people well,
But even if the girl likes me, I can manage to look at her for some seconds and smile, and act aloof or disinterested, but need to hide my hands coz theyre shaking and I cant find anything good to say to her even if I memorized a pickup line seconds ago...

Can beta blockers help me?

beta blockers will help with the physical symptoms of anxiety. your heart will stop pounding, and i expect your hands to stop shaking. but, all the negative stuff going on in your head will persist.

also, for some, beta blockers can inhibit erections while on it, so be mindful of this fact

[chrono]

Magnesium malate, taurate and glycinate are probably equally good at not giving you GI troubles, and not being bound to a compound that will cause harm in your body (e.g. Mg aspartate). The taurate would be a bonus because it contains taurine, which is generally useful for relaxing.

It might be most useful to maintain two categories of substance: ones that you can take sustainably without tolerance or adverse effects (like magnesium, bacopa, kava, adaptogens), and those which you can use as-needed for a stronger effect, but shouldn't be taken constantly (beta blockers, this thread).

Your hands shaking sounds like a pretty acute response, so the low-level anxiolytics might not do much to help in this situation. Does anything you've tried so far alleviate this (like alcohol)? Are you also looking for a general reduction in anxiety, or is sociability the only thing you have trouble with?

With kava, efficacy depends a LOT on what product you use. Do some reading here to find one people say actually worked.

It sounds like there's a lot of work you could do psychologically as well, especially concerning girls. Try meditation, or perhaps cognitive behavioral therapy if you want to get more serious. Or try to make friends with some girls who you don't feel like you have to impress/perform for (if you don't have any already). It might help you stop putting them in a different mental category.

Interested I've never heard of manganese for anxiety. Do you have an links to reading material?

It's pretty experimental, but well worth looking into. I use it on an as-needed basis. See this thread lufega made: Is Manganese the Solution?

Edited by chrono, 17 April 2010 - 11:37 PM.

[Cless986]

Your hands shaking sounds like a pretty acute response, so the low-level anxiolytics might not do much to help in this situation. Does anything you've tried so far alleviate this (like alcohol)? Are you also looking for a general reduction in anxiety, or is sociability the only thing you have trouble with?

With kava, efficacy depends a LOT on what product you use. Do some reading here to find one people say actually worked.

I cant drink alcohol because I have asian flush (my body cant process alcohol) thats why I cant be like others who drink
alcohol to lower their inhibitions , some people say that mdma or pot helps, but I am not taking any drugs.
I tried kava , but I was making it wrong, using too much hot water that destroys the kava compounds, but t seems to help a bit.

[TigerMask]

I think many people who have social anxiety, try too hard to be liked by others and have unrealistically high expectations of social encounters. Like they're struggling and fighting with their introverted nature, trying to be the life of the party as an extrovert. They may do this by drinking or doing drugs. This is why some people with social anxiety struggle with addiction: It helps them put on the disguise of an extrovert for a little while.

Clearly, it seems, you've become comfortable with being an introvert. Becoming comfortable with this, meditating on this, is probably one of the best things someone who thinks they're struggling with social anxiety can do.

I am not having a go at you, but I think explanations like this really don't answer much because you are completely glossing over the neuroscientific reasoning behind many of these neurological issues... I think most of this stuff is completely out of our control, and the only way to overcome it is through rigirous training (in effect changing your brain chemistry/wiring) or through supplements/drugs.

I posted a thread here about this a week or so ago: Shy or introverted may process their world differently. I think any discussion about social anxiety really needs to take this stuff into account.

I think all that stuff is fine, but sometimes no matter what someone does for their social anxiety, nothing helps. I have tried many drugs, and most of them didn't work or had detrimental side effects. The most effective ones for me are addictive, so I choose not to take them. There are still some more drugs I've left to try, but I'm certainly not going to get my hopes up. A year ago I would've done anything to try Nardil, which for many is a magic pill for social anxiety, but even that doesn't help everyone.

I've found the best thing I can do is emanate positivity and do little things to help myself relax. Yeah, I'm sure that all sounds like hippie mumbo-jumbo, but there really isn't a clear cut, non-addictive solution for social anxiety. And what helps one person's social anxiety, might not help another person's. It really seems to be an elusive and mysterious mental disorder.

Someone searching for a solution to their social anxiety is invariably going to have a long and difficult search ahead of them. Because I'm intimately familiar with the tediousness of this difficult search, my statements may come off as a bit sentimental.

And besides, I've already recommended a few supplements. I'd recommend more, but I really haven't found many supplements that have helped me with social anxiety.

I realize all this may come off a bit negative, and that's okay. Social anxiety is a very difficult issue that many people struggle with and the search for something that helps is always an elusive search. It can be an expensive one, too. Spending money on doctor after doctor, supplement after supplement. I don't want to discourage anyone from these paths, but there are a lot of great, positive, helpful things you can do for an anxiety disorder without spending any money.

I choose all three paths. I look for a good doctor. I try a new supplement. I try to stay positive, build inner strength, and gain new experiences.

[Cless986]

Just bought this http://www.vitaminsh....jsp?id=VS-1224
It works?? couldnt find citrate...

[TigerMask]

Unfortunately, that supplement has a lot of calcium and not enough magnesium. Magnesium oxide is poorly absorbed. Doesn't look like a good supplement.

You might not even need to take calcium. If your getting some of it from your diet, you're fine for now. In the long run, if you're taking magnesium supplements daily, you might need to take a little calcium if you're not getting it from what you eat.

So for now, maybe you should just get a good source of magnesium (malate or citrate):

http://www.vitaminsh....jsp?id=SR-7408

Then if you like that and find yourself taking it often, get some calcium (citrate).

It's a good idea to find a website that you like ordering from, one that has a lot of supplements in stock (any good site or store should have magnesium citrate) and good deals.

Edited by TigerMask, 19 April 2010 - 04:26 AM.

[chrono]

A lot of people find that magnesium citrate gives them loose stool. It's pretty annoying. I'd go for the glycinate or malate. iHerb should have both.

Also, the one you posted (Cless) contains magnesium oxide, which is probably the worst form of magnesium in terms of what is available to the body.

Edited by chrono, 19 April 2010 - 11:05 AM.

[Cless986]

damn, i just bought the wrong one, but it make me sleepy and make hands shake after drinking a little tea

[Animal]

damn, i just bought the wrong one, it made me sleepy and my hands were trembling after drinking a little tea,

The 'wrong one' being citrate?

[chrono]

I just read that shaking hands can be a sign of magnesium and B1 deficiency. Have you seen a doctor about this?

A lot of people (including me) take magnesium at night, to aid in sleep and avoid daytime tiredness. MANY people take the citrate, if you don't notice/aren't bothered by GI troubles after you've been taking it for a week or so, I'd say not to worry about it.

I'd also suggest that you build up to 400mg over a week or two, especially with the citrate. Not sure how necessary this is, but if you're getting weird effects it couldn't hurt.

Edited by chrono, 19 April 2010 - 04:16 PM.

[Cless986]

i bought the calcium/mag complex cuz it was the only one i could find in the pharmacy near my house, i am going to get the citrate then.. How many mg i need to notice the effects i want??

Edited by Cless986, 19 April 2010 - 05:31 PM.

[TigerMask]

i bought the calcium/mag complex cuz it was the only one i could find in the pharmacy near my house, i am going to get the citrate then.. How many mg i need to notice the effects i want??

Starting at 200 should be fine. I wouldn't be surprised if that sent you to the bathroom the first time, though. This is why you see peopling recommending malate and glycinate.

What country are you from? This may be a factor in online purchases, so I was just wondering.

Keep in mind that the shaking could be from the calcium in that supplement. It's a lot of calcium. More than you likely need. Just try magnesium for now.

Edited by TigerMask, 19 April 2010 - 11:02 PM.

[Cless986]

thanks! I live in panama and is tricky to order it online but i will try. I went and found citrate, and one called chelated cal/mag, whats that means?

[chrono]

Cless: I suggest using iHerb. They have some of the cheapest prices and one of the largest selections, with very good brands. They also deliver all over the world.

They have a couple good magnesium malate products that are quite inexpensive.

[TigerMask]

I would recommend using IHerb as well.

And I would take magnesium citrate over chelated magnesium. It's just a different form of magnesium. I would take malate over them both.

Edited by TigerMask, 20 April 2010 - 12:14 AM.

[csrpj]

are there reasons for one to take malate over citrate for someone who doesn't mind the laxative effects?

[chrono]

are there reasons for one to take malate over citrate for someone who doesn't mind the laxative effects?

I think the malate absorbs slightly better, and some notice a subjective difference (one poster here found it more relaxing). The only downside I found to the citrate so far is that it probably increases intestinal absorption of aluminum. But this is debatable, as both citric and malic acid can chelate aluminum in certain circumstances as well.

[TigerMask]

Which, if you have functioning kidneys, I wouldn't worry about. If my sources are correct, there is 2g of malic acid in the typical apple. Before I ran out of magnesium malate a few weeks ago, I was likely taking the equivalent of 1.25g of malic acid.

There are sites that recommend malic acid for ridding the body of aluminum, but they often don't include sources. I need a little more evidence.

J Am Coll Nutr. 1996 Feb;15(1):102-6.
The lack of influence of long-term potassium citrate and calcium citrate treatment in total body aluminum burden in patients with functioning kidneys.

Sakhaee K, Ruml L, Padalino P, Haynes S, Pak CY.

University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas 75235-8885, USA.

BACKGROUND: It has been suggested that citrate salts might enhance aluminum (Al) absorption from a normal diet, posing a threat of Al toxicity even in subjects with normal renal function. We have recently reported that in normal subjects and patients with moderate renal failure, short-term treatment with tricalcium dicitrate (Ca3Cit2) does not significantly change urinary and serum Al levels. However, we have not assessed total body Al stores in patients on long-term citrate treatment. OBJECTIVE: The objective of this study was to ascertain body content of Al non-invasively using the increment in serum and urinary Al following the intravenous administration of deferoxamine (DFO) in patients with kidney stones and osteoporotic women undergoing long-term treatment with potassium citrate (K3Cit) or Ca3Cit2, respectively. METHODS: Ten patients with calcium nephrolithiasis and five with osteoporosis who were maintained on potassium citrate (40 mEq/day or more) or calcium citrate 800 mg calcium/day (40 mEq citrate) for 2 to 8 years, respectively, and 16 normal volunteers without a history of regular aluminum-containing antacid use participated in the study. All participants completed the 8 days of study, during which they were maintained on their regular home diet. Urinary Al excretion was measured during a two-day baseline before (Days 5, 6) and for 1 day (Day 7) immediately following a single intravenous dose of DFO (40 mg/kg). Blood for Al was obtained before DFO administration, and at 2, 5 and 24 hours following the start of the infusion. RESULTS: The median 24-hour urinary Al excretion (microgram/day) at baseline versus post-DFO value was 15.9 vs. 44.4 in the normal subjects and 13.3 vs. 35.7 in the patients. These values were all within normal limits and did not change significantly following DFO infusion (p = 0.003 and p = 0.0001, respectively). The median change of 17.1 micrograms/day in urinary Al in the normal subjects was not significantly different from the 18.7 micrograms/day change measured in the patient group (p = 0.30). Similarly, no change in the mean serum Al was detected at any time following the DFO infusion, either in the patient or control group (patients 4.1 to 4.3 ng/ml, controls 7.4 to 4.6 ng/ml). CONCLUSION: The results suggest that abnormal total body retention of Al does not occur during long-term citrate treatment in patients with functioning kidneys.

[Cless986]

awweessomeeeee!!!!! yesterday I took the mag citrate that I brought, took the 100%dv and
felt great today!!! no sleepiness like the Cal-mag that I took last time, and never got
hungry all day, but I was hyper, with a lot of energy but without jitterness or unpleasent effects,
Went to a shop that a cute girl is working and asked her out with a confident air and without shakin hands!!
Not sure if its placebo but I havent felt that great since a long time thanks all for your help!!!
And only a question, how do often do I take the mag? and is the daily requirement enough? thnks!

[Rational Madman]

Although I'm somewhat loth to reduce a complicated disorder like social anxiety to a monoamine imbalance, there is a great deal of evidence supporting the use of SSRIs like Lexapro, or beta-adrenergic blockers like Inderal. If you place yourself in the hands of a good psychopharmacologist, and continiously expose yourself to social situations without regard to your fears or preferences, your problem should be remedied. While sometimes helpful, supplements should not be thought of as anything other than supplemental.

Edited by Rol82, 27 April 2010 - 07:38 AM.

[csrpj]

Although I'm somewhat loth to reduce a complicated disorder like social anxiety to a monoamine imbalance, there is a great deal of evidence supporting the use of SSRIs like Lexapro, or beta-adrenergic blockers like Inderal. If you place yourself in the hands of a good psychopharmacologist, and continiously expose yourself to social situations without regard to your fears or preferences, your problem should be remedied. While sometimes helpful, supplements should not be thought of as anything other than supplemental.

are there pharmaceuticals with similar effectiveness as SSRIs but with more favorable side effect profiles?

[Rational Madman]

Although I'm somewhat loth to reduce a complicated disorder like social anxiety to a monoamine imbalance, there is a great deal of evidence supporting the use of SSRIs like Lexapro, or beta-adrenergic blockers like Inderal. If you place yourself in the hands of a good psychopharmacologist, and continiously expose yourself to social situations without regard to your fears or preferences, your problem should be remedied. While sometimes helpful, supplements should not be thought of as anything other than supplemental.

are there pharmaceuticals with similar effectiveness as SSRIs but with more favorable side effect profiles?

While not as efficacious as SSRIs, Buspar has a good side effect profile, and is indicated for generalized anxiety. Cymbalta is another option, and should address comorbid depression symptoms. Others respond quite well to psychostimulants, which can ameliorate anxiety in certain patients. So, it really depends on your individual neurochemistry.

Edited by Rol82, 27 April 2010 - 10:10 AM.

[chrono]

Cless, I'm glad magnesium did something for you! Keep taking that dose (400mg?) and see how you feel in a few weeks. The effects might "level off" a bit. But it sounds like you're doing great, keep using the improvement to put effort in personally as well.

While sometimes helpful, supplements should not be thought of as anything other than supplemental.

I think if alleviating a magnesium deficiency has a significant impact on the symptoms this person was describing, saying they should check in and start the SSRI tour is a little unwarranted. And implying that "supplements" are incapable of solving problems pharmacologically is simply incorrect. As in, not borne out by anecdotal evidence or literature.

are there pharmaceuticals with similar effectiveness as SSRIs but with more favorable side effect profiles?

Tianeptine, agomelatine and afobazol are probably worth reading about.

Edited by chrono, 27 April 2010 - 12:20 PM.

[Rational Madman]

Cless, I'm glad magnesium did something for you! Keep taking that dose (400mg?) and see how you feel in a few weeks. The effects might "level off" a bit. But it sounds like you're doing great, keep using the improvement to put effort in personally as well.

While sometimes helpful, supplements should not be thought of as anything other than supplemental.

I think if alleviating a magnesium deficiency has a significant impact on the symptoms this person was describing, saying they should check in and start the SSRI tour is a little unwarranted. And implying that "supplements" are incapable of solving problems pharmacologically is simply incorrect. As in, not borne out by anecdotal evidence or literature.

Since blood tests have not positively confirmed the presence of a magnesium deficiency, there is not sufficient evidence to indicate that a magnesium deficiency is at the root of the original poster's anxiety. With the complaint of hand tremors, and because of the high incidence of magnesium deficiency, the original poster will probably benefit from magnesium supplementation. But, since social anxiety isn't monocausal, there could be alternative explanations. If there is a calcium/magnesium balance, then I would urge the original poster to supplement magnesium, and to consider the use of a prescription calcium channel blocker. Better yet, he should rely on the advice of a trained professional, and not solicit advice from messageboards, which is much more likely to lead him down the wrong path. I only say this because his description suggests a serious case of social anxiety, which is much more likely to be alleviated by a combination of behavioral therapy and prescription medication. Because the literature suggests a strong correlation with serotonergic dysfunction, or rather, a superior response rate to the administration of SSRIs, an SSRI would seem to be a logical solution. At the same time, though, there are dozens of explanations that need to be investigated and ruled out through testing and an examination of the original poster's history.

Since I have an extensive regimen of supplements, I'm not opposed to supplementation. However, I'm somewhat troubled by some members' aversion to conventional medicine, and their often fruitless searches for panacea supplements. To be clear, it is not my belief that supplement use is without foundation. There is a mountain of empirical evidence supporting their use in a number of disorders. But, I do believe that in cases of a more serious nature---which seems to accurately describe this situation--- that prescription drugs are likely to yield superior patient outcomes, and that in most cases, the effects of supplementation will be relatively inferior.

Edited by Rol82, 27 April 2010 - 03:38 PM.