119 replies to this topic

[chrono]

I don't think anyone in this thread has put forth possible solutions in the way you seem to be responding to. I see a few ideas proposed which might help social anxiety. I don't think any of these are particularly dangerous, of have side effects which weren't mentioned. At no time was monocausality or comprehensiveness implied; quite the contrary.

OTOH, suggesting SSRIs as "the logical solution" is laughable. Just because something works according to literature, doesn't mean it should be the first thing tried. I know more people who would never take SSRIs again than were helped by them in any way. Pharmaceutical options (at least the ones you mentioned) are in a different class than anything mentioned here, in terms of possible adverse reaction. As someone who has had more bad doctors than good ones (and I've had a lot), I find it difficult to agree with the patent assertion that seeing a clinician will guarantee a good solution. Getting involved in your own health care seems like a much better guarantor of success, whatever path you choose.

Clinical intervention should certainly be brought up (in fact it was, by me), but it seems like it's possible to do so without marginalizing other possible solutions.

[nito]

awweessomeeeee!!!!! yesterday I took the mag citrate that I brought, took the 100%dv and
felt great today!!! no sleepiness like the Cal-mag that I took last time, and never got
hungry all day, but I was hyper, with a lot of energy but without jitterness or unpleasent effects,
Went to a shop that a cute girl is working and asked her out with a confident air and without shakin hands!!
Not sure if its placebo but I havent felt that great since a long time thanks all for your help!!!
And only a question, how do often do I take the mag? and is the daily requirement enough? thnks!

so wait, someone with shaky hands suddenly felt confident and asked a girl out without shaking at all? I think i will try magnesium myself lol! Do you mind linking where you bought it please?
thanks

[chrono]

so wait, someone with shaky hands suddenly felt confident and asked a girl out without shaking at all? I think i will try magnesium myself lol! Do you mind linking where you bought it please?
thanks

LOL. You're a card, nito. Some people respond very well to it, and it's an epidemic deficiency with western diets. Magnesium is literally the easiest supplement to find, anywhere. Go to the grocery store, or actually read the rest of this thread

Edited by chrono, 27 April 2010 - 02:03 PM.

[Rational Madman]

I don't think anyone in this thread has put forth possible solutions in the way you seem to be responding to. I see a few ideas proposed which might help social anxiety. I don't think any of these are particularly dangerous, of have side effects which weren't mentioned. At no time was monocausality or comprehensiveness implied; quite the contrary.

OTOH, suggesting SSRIs as "the logical solution" is laughable. Just because something works according to literature, doesn't mean it should be the first thing tried. I know more people who would never take SSRIs again than were helped by them in any way. Pharmaceutical options (at least the ones you mentioned) are in a different class than anything mentioned here, in terms of possible adverse reaction. As someone who has had more bad doctors than good ones (and I've had a lot), I find it difficult to agree with the patent assertion that seeing a clinician will guarantee a good solution. Getting involved in your own health care seems like a much better guarantor of success, whatever path you choose.

Clinical intervention should certainly be brought up (in fact it was, by me), but it seems like it's possible to do so without marginalizing other possible solutions.

At the time of my writing, it seemed that you were implying that a magnesium deficiency was a critical part of the etiology, and in the absence of sufficient evidence, suggested a lazy and unsubstantiated monocausal explanation. And, while most of the proposed remedies are innocuous, it is my opinion that they're unlikely to satisfactorily solve the original poster's problem. As for your concern about potential side effects, there is indeed a heightened risk of side effects with SSRI therapy, but such risks are sometimes necessary for satisfactory patient outcomes in difficult to treat cases. Further, rather than being concerned about the perils of supplementation, it is my fear that if the original poster heeds the advice of the discussion participants, and forestalls a proper examination, his problems are likely to remain unsolved.

Again, based on the severity of the original poster's symptoms, an SSRI would be a logical therapeutical option, and despite your concerns, would unlikely be the first modality that he has used. Otherwise he wouldn't be soliciting advice from a messageboard, which I interpret as a sign of desperation. As for the efficacy of SSRIs, you're unfortunately relying on anecdotal evidence, which is the lowest form of evidence, and for determining a treatment approach, is of relatively little use. Since studies supporting SSRIs for this indication were methodologically sound, and because the findings have been exhaustively repeated and scrutinized, the demands of empiricism have been satisfied. None of the proposed solutions have satisfied the high standards required for FDA approval or scholarly consensus. So, they must be treated with some skepticism, and relegated to the supplemental treatment of evidently serious cases of social anxiety.

Although it's unfortunate that your experiences with medicine and SSRI therapy have been disappointing, they are not an accurate reflection of patient experiences that have been recorded and analyzed. If you have evidence that indicates otherwise, please provide multiple citations, and be prepared to explain the flawed methodology of previous studies. Otherwise, I believe the scholarly consensus is unchanged. However, due to the the lack of equilibrium in the marketplace, you're quite right in stating the necessity of self-advocacy and responsibility in cases that are unresponsive to conventional approaches. Proper diagnosis and treatment depends on a patients' willingness to play an integral role in the diagnostic process. But, ultimately, it's imperative that we have the humility to defer to the professionals.

Edited by Rol82, 27 April 2010 - 04:55 PM.

[Lufega]

So, in my psychiatry class, the professor, a promiment doctor in his field, states that social anxiety has nothing to do with dopamine but everything to do with serotonin. From someone who has experienced different degrees of social anxiety over many years, I said, outloud, that it was bullshit.

The only interventions that have helped me has been those that increase dopamine/norepineprhine. All of my research has led me to the same conclusions. I've written about this in the socialanxietysupport.com forum under the name "beggiatoa". You are welcome to dig up that info. Warning though, much of the things I wrote there where pre-imminst and I was a total newbi. Now, I'm just a newbi.

In addition, of all the supplements I've tried, the only thing that made a noticeable impact (judged by my increased sociability this year and well as the number of partners I've had) is manganese, presumably, by boosting levels of D.

So while people may theorize about SSRI's, talk therapy and all this other nonsense, experience speaks best.

[chrono]

Again, based on the severity of the original poster's symptoms, and because it seems likely that he has tried several solutions, an SSRI would be a logical therapeutical solution, and in all likelihood, wouldn't be the first modality that he has used.

This doesn't make any sense. The OP mentioned nothing of previous treatment. And if he had sought therapeutic help, SSRIs would probably have been one of the first modalities attempted. And I could be wrong, but if the primary symptom is that their hands shake and they stutter when they talk to girls, my first thought is that this is not serious social anxiety. People with serious social anxiety say things like "I can't leave the house," or "I don't answer the phone when my friends call." I know this from personal experience too, but if you're going to demand clinical evidence, I'll ask you to tell me why you thought the OP's symptoms were so serious they needed clinical intervention.

I didn't present my own experience as anything but proof that failure of the system you're defending so vehemently is possible. To demand clinical evidence of this is so, so silly. And you're talking like the OP not rushing out to get medical help for talking to girls is going to lead to drastic consequences. I think trying some simple and innocuous options, the efficacy of which are almost immediately apparent, will not be a significant detractor to this person's course of treatment.

You seem keen on escalating arguments, and severe distinctions that make it easier for you to make your point, and harder to disprove. I don't have time for that this morning.

So, in my psychiatry class, the professor, a promiment doctor in his field, states that social anxiety has nothing to do with dopamine but everything to do with serotonin. From someone who has experienced different degrees of social anxiety over many years, I said, outloud, that it was bullshit.

Ha! Good for you. That's been my experience as well. Almost any dopaminergic has much more of a positive impact for me than any of the SSRIs I was on. Though I suppose a general flattening of emotion/affect could be considered a cure for social anxiety.

I've seen several of your excellent threads on SAS. I've wondered if you get any relief from GABAnergics or BZD drugs, when you say that manganese is the only thing to help.

It's funny how people with clinical bias think of literature as the only form of evidence worth anything. I've yet to see a research study that helped me predict the subjective experience of a medication, which is a huge factor in whether it's a viable treatment. But maybe I'm wrong, and clinical odds of efficacy/inefficacy which can be judged easily by research studies are the only thing worth considering.

Edited by chrono, 27 April 2010 - 04:27 PM.

[Lufega]

I believe social anxiety is caused by some type of yet undescribed neural degeneration. Let me now simplify it too much. It's probably not just manganese. I'm giving myself many nutrients that are helping my body and brain rebuild, heal, as well as changes in the way I eat. (including but not limited to Mg, B1, B6 B12, Omega 3, etc.) I'm sure all of that had an impact. But boy, when I got back on Mn and gave it an honest try, It was unstoppable.

Mn is a cofactor for dopamine production. I have a source somewhere and I had to go to hell and back to find it. It seems all research points to Mn as only bad (sure, in insanely high doses) but in physiological doses, it serves many important chemical reactions and function including dopamine production and the integrity of connective tissue. Mn needs not be underestimated.

Iron is also a cofactor for dopamine production. It seems that Mn and iron both have affinity for dopaminergic neurons. Why do you think that is? Maybe perhaps, because they serve a function there??

Edited by Lufega, 27 April 2010 - 04:12 PM.

[chrono]

Mn is a cofactor for dopamine production. I have a source somewhere and I had to go to hell and back to find it.

Had it in my notes, here it is

I asked about GABA because my SA responds very well to dopaminergics too, but it's also relieved pretty effectively by certain benzos (clonazepam and lorazepam are the ones with fewest sides for me) and alcohol (though I can't drink due to pain issues). Though in those cases the solution probably doesn't address the cause as elegantly as dopamine.

Edited by chrono, 27 April 2010 - 04:27 PM.

[rwac]

So, in my psychiatry class, the professor, a promiment doctor in his field, states that social anxiety has nothing to do with dopamine but everything to do with serotonin. From someone who has experienced different degrees of social anxiety over many years, I said, outloud, that it was bullshit.

I'm curious. What was his response to that ?

[Lufega]

So, in my psychiatry class, the professor, a promiment doctor in his field, states that social anxiety has nothing to do with dopamine but everything to do with serotonin. From someone who has experienced different degrees of social anxiety over many years, I said, outloud, that it was bullshit.

I'm curious. What was his response to that ?

He told me I was an Idiot and to STFU. But he's a cool guy, it's just his way That the reason I dared to be so bold in the first place.

[chrono]

It's funny how it's so fashionable for medical doctors to have so little doubt about certain things, when consensus understandings cycle so rapidly.

[nito]

So, in my psychiatry class, the professor, a promiment doctor in his field, states that social anxiety has nothing to do with dopamine but everything to do with serotonin. From someone who has experienced different degrees of social anxiety over many years, I said, outloud, that it was bullshit.

The only interventions that have helped me has been those that increase dopamine/norepineprhine. All of my research has led me to the same conclusions. I've written about this in the socialanxietysupport.com forum under the name "beggiatoa". You are welcome to dig up that info. Warning though, much of the things I wrote there where pre-imminst and I was a total newbi. Now, I'm just a newbi.

In addition, of all the supplements I've tried, the only thing that made a noticeable impact (judged by my increased sociability this year and well as the number of partners I've had) is manganese, presumably, by boosting levels of D.

So while people may theorize about SSRI's, talk therapy and all this other nonsense, experience speaks best.

I have some celated manganese. Took 5mg the first time and i felt like i had a bit of a slurred speach and slight brainfog. The dosage says to take 1 twice a day but i only took one that day. So i tried it again the next day and didnt notice the slurred speach, kinda strange. How much do you take to feel it working for the anxiety?

[rwac]

I have some celated manganese. Took 5mg the first time and i felt like i had a bit of a slurred speach and slight brainfog. The dosage says to take 1 twice a day but i only took one that day. So i tried it again the next day and didnt notice the slurred speach, kinda strange. How much do you take to feel it working for the anxiety?

That kinda sounds like a bad sign, actually.
I certainly felt good when I started taking Manganese.

Manganese can also feed certain bacteria, so you want to watch out for that.
Have you considered the possibility of a chronic infection of some sort ?

Have you tried taking some NAC to boost Mn-SOD ?

PS: what brand were you using ?

[Cless986]

after a few days, I begin to feel a little down... I dont lack energy but I seem a little deppresed,
is normal??

[chrono]

Hmm, probably not? A lot of people find magnesium makes them tired. Are you taking it in the morning or at night?

Starting with the full 400mg dose at once may have created some kind of rebound response before, or now. My impression is that it should take a week or so to properly gauge what the effects are going to be like.

Edited by chrono, 29 April 2010 - 02:44 AM.

[Guacamolium]

Cless986 I used to be in your same situation. We might have slightly different brains, but the same main things are going on. To cut to the chase and not peddle with mediocrity, just get a good SSRI like citalopram, and a good benzodiazepine. Take them together during social settings and take NGF cog enhancers in the meantime.

[chrono]

I am 20 years old and managed to fit more or less, I get used to regular social contact,
but MY biggest issue is that I cant talk to beitiful women or potential girlfriends, when I see one I get anxious
and is very difficult for me to have good eye contact or small talk, let alone inviting them to dinner.

I may be missing something obvious here, as some people are pushing pretty hard for clinical intervention and strong pharmaceuticals. But am I the only one who thinks it's actually pretty normal for a young guy to get nervous around girls? Suggesting SSRIs and benzos seems so premature and extreme to me, when he's reporting literally one situation in which social anxiety is a problem. Can you picture a doctor prescribing either of those if someone came to their office and said something like what I quoted?

While I'm more than willing to admit the general limitations of some of the non-clinical solutions I find preferable, based on what he's actually said, it seems highly plausible to me that something like L-theanine or one of the basic GABAnergics could alleviate this to his satisfaction. Maybe all he needs is a little boost in confidence, to get started doing something scary he's not used to.

[nito]

I have some celated manganese. Took 5mg the first time and i felt like i had a bit of a slurred speach and slight brainfog. The dosage says to take 1 twice a day but i only took one that day. So i tried it again the next day and didnt notice the slurred speach, kinda strange. How much do you take to feel it working for the anxiety?

That kinda sounds like a bad sign, actually.
I certainly felt good when I started taking Manganese.

Manganese can also feed certain bacteria, so you want to watch out for that.
Have you considered the possibility of a chronic infection of some sort ?

Have you tried taking some NAC to boost Mn-SOD ?

PS: what brand were you using ?

I am taking this one. http://www.hollandan...o...ese&rdcnt=1

I'm not taking NAC, as a matter of fact i don't know what it is, but they sell it in the same shop as the manganese so i could try it out if it's helpful.

[tintinet]

It may be healthy to have social contact. I don't know that it's healthy to disparage other posters as "recreant," etc..

[rwac]

I am taking this one. http://www.hollandan...o...ese&rdcnt=1

I'm not taking NAC, as a matter of fact i don't know what it is, but they sell it in the same shop as the manganese so i could try it out if it's helpful.

Hey, if something is causing brain-fog, stop taking it.
Sounds like it's not good for you.

It might be worth trying a different brand, this is the one people have had good results with.
http://www.iherb.com...lets/13270?at=0

Again, if that causes problems, stop that too.

[pycnogenol]

The Carlson Labs is a fine product; I currently take the Bluebonnet Nutrition brand of manganese.

http://www.iherb.com...caps/14975?at=0

[nito]

I am taking this one. http://www.hollandan...o...ese&rdcnt=1

I'm not taking NAC, as a matter of fact i don't know what it is, but they sell it in the same shop as the manganese so i could try it out if it's helpful.

Hey, if something is causing brain-fog, stop taking it.
Sounds like it's not good for you.

It might be worth trying a different brand, this is the one people have had good results with.
http://www.iherb.com...lets/13270?at=0

Again, if that causes problems, stop that too.

Thanks i will definately stop it if it continues. Will try maximum 1-2 pill and see again. I have now got lions and vinpocetine to help me sharpen the brain a little better. But what i was wondering whether i should use an antioxidant to detoxify instead of all this noots. Could you recommend a good one to clean the brain of maybe poison because i suspect i could have some due to all the things i have tried recently.
thanks

[nito]

In terms of anti anxiety i use rescue remedy spray that works somewhat. I have just started l theanine serene with relora but its so damn expensive for 60 pills it kills me lol. http://www.iherb.com...blets/1437?at=0

[Rational Madman]

So, in my psychiatry class, the professor, a promiment doctor in his field, states that social anxiety has nothing to do with dopamine but everything to do with serotonin. From someone who has experienced different degrees of social anxiety over many years, I said, outloud, that it was bullshit.

The only interventions that have helped me has been those that increase dopamine/norepineprhine. All of my research has led me to the same conclusions. I've written about this in the socialanxietysupport.com forum under the name "beggiatoa". You are welcome to dig up that info. Warning though, much of the things I wrote there where pre-imminst and I was a total newbi. Now, I'm just a newbi.

In addition, of all the supplements I've tried, the only thing that made a noticeable impact (judged by my increased sociability this year and well as the number of partners I've had) is manganese, presumably, by boosting levels of D.

So while people may theorize about SSRI's, talk therapy and all this other nonsense, experience speaks best.

Social anxiety is a complex phenomenon that has multiple causes and treatment strategies. In most cases that require pharmacological treatment, the administration of drugs that inhibit the reuptake of serotonin have been demonstrated to be statistically effective for most patients. But, its not entirely clear if improved patient outcomes are linked to this mechanism, or other effects that SSRIs exert over the biochemistry of the recipients. As you have discovered from your personal struggles, and after conferring with other socially anxious individuals, some patients report a more significant improvement after receiving drugs with different mechanisms, which suggests multiple etiologies. In my previous entry, I implicitly acknowledged this variance by suggesting drugs with different mechanisms----such as beta adrenergic blockers and psychostimulants. The suitability of such agents depends on the presence of other symptoms and comorbid disorders which are not universally present. From what I've gathered, your case is confounding and refractory, and it's fair to say, not an accurate representation of the patient population. It seems that you understand the uniqueness of your case, and I hope that you're not suggesting that most patients suffering from social anxiety are likely to respond best to agents that increase cerebral levels of dopamine and norepinepherine---because such a claim is almost entirely without foundation, and greatly at odds with most research findings on the subject.

[Rational Madman]

Again, based on the severity of the original poster's symptoms, and because it seems likely that he has tried several solutions, an SSRI would be a logical therapeutical solution, and in all likelihood, wouldn't be the first modality that he has used.

This doesn't make any sense. The OP mentioned nothing of previous treatment. And if he had sought therapeutic help, SSRIs would probably have been one of the first modalities attempted. And I could be wrong, but if the primary symptom is that their hands shake and they stutter when they talk to girls, my first thought is that this is not serious social anxiety. People with serious social anxiety say things like "I can't leave the house," or "I don't answer the phone when my friends call." I know this from personal experience too, but if you're going to demand clinical evidence, I'll ask you to tell me why you thought the OP's symptoms were so serious they needed clinical intervention.

I didn't present my own experience as anything but proof that failure of the system you're defending so vehemently is possible. To demand clinical evidence of this is so, so silly. And you're talking like the OP not rushing out to get medical help for talking to girls is going to lead to drastic consequences. I think trying some simple and innocuous options, the efficacy of which are almost immediately apparent, will not be a significant detractor to this person's course of treatment.

You seem keen on escalating arguments, and severe distinctions that make it easier for you to make your point, and harder to disprove. I don't have time for that this morning.

So, in my psychiatry class, the professor, a promiment doctor in his field, states that social anxiety has nothing to do with dopamine but everything to do with serotonin. From someone who has experienced different degrees of social anxiety over many years, I said, outloud, that it was bullshit.

Ha! Good for you. That's been my experience as well. Almost any dopaminergic has much more of a positive impact for me than any of the SSRIs I was on. Though I suppose a general flattening of emotion/affect could be considered a cure for social anxiety.

I've seen several of your excellent threads on SAS. I've wondered if you get any relief from GABAnergics or BZD drugs, when you say that manganese is the only thing to help.

It's funny how people with clinical bias think of literature as the only form of evidence worth anything. I've yet to see a research study that helped me predict the subjective experience of a medication, which is a huge factor in whether it's a viable treatment. But maybe I'm wrong, and clinical odds of efficacy/inefficacy which can be judged easily by research studies are the only thing worth considering.

While we can debate the operational definition of "severity," it appears that the symptoms of the original poster are clinically significant, which would make him an appropriate candidate for SSRI therapy. But, my suggestion is only tentative, since he has not disclosed sufficient information, and because I'm not qualified to render diagnoses. To be clear, I suggested SSRI therapy as a possible treatment, but I've been emphatic about the necessity of seeking a professional opinion first and foremost. Indeed, if symptoms are impeding the original poster from enjoying an ordinary social life, and are accompanied by worrisome symptoms such as stuttering, I think there should be no debate about the importance of seeking a professional evaluation or his case's satisfaction of the diagnostic criteria for pharmacological treatment. For his recovery to be expedited, it would behoove him to heed my advice, and not waste time and money on supplemental approaches that remain investigational and are only likely to yield suboptimal outcomes.

Edited by Rol82, 02 May 2010 - 01:33 AM.

[niner]

This is a little silly, imho. The OP is nervous around girls. If he's fine around guys, or around women who are not potential mates, I don't think this even qualifies as "social anxiety". It's just a little hangup about sex, most likely. Fear of rejection, fear of the unknown... jeez, this is one of the most common anxieties that young males have. I'm amazed at the power of magnesium being reported here. I guess I must have been magnesium replete before I ever took a mag supplement, because it never had any such effect on me, but more power to y'all. It sure sounds like it worked for the OP. Placebo? Probably, but I'd recommend taking advantage while it's working. Getting laid would be substantially superior therapy to SSRIs, in all probability. Good luck, Cless. It gets easier.

[chrono]

Getting laid would be substantially superior therapy to SSRIs, in all probability.

This is a rash and possibly dangerous assumption about the etiology of this case. Only a qualified health care professional can make such a diagnosis. If determined to be the proper course of treatment, copulation should occur under clinical supervision and direction.

[niner]

Getting laid would be substantially superior therapy to SSRIs, in all probability.

This is a rash and possibly dangerous assumption about the etiology of this case. Only a qualified health care professional can make such a diagnosis. If determined to be the proper course of treatment, copulation should occur under clinical supervision and direction.

LOL!

[Rational Madman]

This is a little silly, imho. The OP is nervous around girls. If he's fine around guys, or around women who are not potential mates, I don't think this even qualifies as "social anxiety". It's just a little hangup about sex, most likely. Fear of rejection, fear of the unknown... jeez, this is one of the most common anxieties that young males have. I'm amazed at the power of magnesium being reported here. I guess I must have been magnesium replete before I ever took a mag supplement, because it never had any such effect on me, but more power to y'all. It sure sounds like it worked for the OP. Placebo? Probably, but I'd recommend taking advantage while it's working. Getting laid would be substantially superior therapy to SSRIs, in all probability. Good luck, Cless. It gets easier.

The original poster indicated that he suffers from social anxiety in general---the symptoms of which become more acute when interacting with girls. So, he might be suffering from Generalized Anxiety Disorder. But, I sincerely hope that his anxiety is limited to his encounters with women, which wouldn't warrant treatment with an SSRI or another agent. But, I'm getting the impression that there is more to his case than he is divulging. In any case, even if his anxiety isn't very serious, it wouldn't hurt him to seek therapy, and determine if further treatment is needed. It's an affordable and efficacious option, and certainly better than following sometimes dubious advice from messageboards. And further, rather than urging the original poster to begin SSRI therapy without regard to symptoms, I was simply trying to encourage him to seek some form of therapy

Although your getting laid advice was perhaps meant half seriously, it's nonetheless good advice. For me, repeated acts of physical intimacy over the course of several years in college ameliorated whatever social anxiety symptoms existed during an embarrassing period of dating without consequence.

Edited by Rol82, 02 May 2010 - 03:54 PM.

[rephore]

Liquid courage worked well for me. Since alcohol lowers your inhibitions and makes you not care as much, I believe it should lower your social anxiety. Then the trick is to do the same things sober, as when you were drunk. It will be a little challenging, but it is doable.

I now go to clubs and never drink, unless pressured by woman, or to be "polite."