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Discovering actual non-aging people


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#1 StephenTruimm

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 08:16 PM


Hello all!

Though ordinarily it is often considered inappropriate to mention another website on a forum, I was invited to do so. On Trueimmortals.net, we have been investigating the possibility that there in fact are some people in the world who do not age normally. One class, the "true immortals," would not age at all. The other, which we whimsically called "Hafeems" or "half-immortals," would age very slowly. The underlying theory is that of a biological aging clock with various set points.

We hypothesize that such people would try hard not to be discovered, for two primary reasons: In past centuries, such a person would be assumed to have "sold his soul to the devil," and would face the risk of religious prosecution. Complementary to that, it appears likely that a person who could in principle live forever might be much more cautious, less willing to take risks, than a person who has only a finite lifespan at risk. But this requires a person to continually change location, when his or her lack of aging becomes apparent. Doing so would have become more difficult in recent years, with the invention of such things as photographs, fingerprints and social security numbers.

Trueimmortals.net has been going on some time, and the story detailed there has become complex. However, a recent post may be a good introduction, with links in the post that set out the major issues: http://www.trueimmortals.net/?p=2684

-- Stephen

#2 shadowhawk

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 08:52 PM

Hello all!

Though ordinarily it is often considered inappropriate to mention another website on a forum, I was invited to do so. On Trueimmortals.net, we have been investigating the possibility that there in fact are some people in the world who do not age normally. One class, the "true immortals," would not age at all. The other, which we whimsically called "Hafeems" or "half-immortals," would age very slowly. The underlying theory is that of a biological aging clock with various set points.

We hypothesize that such people would try hard not to be discovered, for two primary reasons: In past centuries, such a person would be assumed to have "sold his soul to the devil," and would face the risk of religious prosecution. Complementary to that, it appears likely that a person who could in principle live forever might be much more cautious, less willing to take risks, than a person who has only a finite lifespan at risk. But this requires a person to continually change location, when his or her lack of aging becomes apparent. Doing so would have become more difficult in recent years, with the invention of such things as photographs, fingerprints and social security numbers.

Trueimmortals.net has been going on some time, and the story detailed there has become complex. However, a recent post may be a good introduction, with links in the post that set out the major issues: http://www.trueimmortals.net/?p=2684

-- Stephen


Do you have anyone or any evidence of a true immortalist? Posted Image

#3 lunarsolarpower

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Posted 30 May 2010 - 01:54 AM

Do you have anyone or any evidence of a true immortalist? Posted Image


Not to quibble unnecessarily but we have plenty of immortalists here. It's the true immortals who are harder to find.

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#4 niner

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Posted 30 May 2010 - 04:13 AM

Though ordinarily it is often considered inappropriate to mention another website on a forum, I was invited to do so. On Trueimmortals.net, we have been investigating the possibility that there in fact are some people in the world who do not age normally. One class, the "true immortals," would not age at all. The other, which we whimsically called "Hafeems" or "half-immortals," would age very slowly. The underlying theory is that of a biological aging clock with various set points.

If there are humans with substantially slower (or zero?) rates of aging, then the phenomenon should be observed in a similar, presumably tiny fraction of other mammals. However, to my knowledge we've never observed this phenomenon in animals. I suppose the counterargument would be that if it occurs at a rate of one in a billion, it would be very easy to miss, and animals in the wild would succumb to predation, disease, or accident soon enough not to be noticed. I'll presume that you aren't making any claims about traditional "can't even be killed with bullets" immortality. I would expect that there would be a distribution of aging rates, some faster and some slower but mostly in the usual range. Aging is a multi-factorial process. Aubrey de Grey talks about there being seven major factors. A person might have a key mutation that slows one of the factors. Perhaps this is relatively common. If the odds of having a slowed version of one of the factors was one in 1000, there would be millions of people who would have it. I would expect that fixing only one of seven problems would not really help that much, as the other six would get you. Suppose the odds of having a substantially slowed version of another factor was also 1/1000. Then the odds of having both factors slowed, assuming non-interaction, are 1 in one million. We would expect 6500 people to have two slowed factors. How long could they live with the other five factors still being fully active? 100? 110 under good circumstances? Suppose more of the factors could be slowed via naturally occurring mutations, with a frequency of 1/1000. Adding a third factor would result in a predicted number of 6 people in the world who had all three factors. Perhaps this would describe a Jean Calment. Still having four factors aging you at a normal rate, with three significantly slowed would let you live longer, but still not forever. Mme Calment lived to be 122. Let's add another mutation with the same 1/1000 frequency. The number of people predicted to have the coveted quadruple mutation is... Zero. Hmm. And there are still three factors to go. That's the trouble with this speculation. There are lots of different ways in which humans accumulate damage in aging. If you want to remain healthy for a very long time, you will have to deal with all of the mechanisms of aging, in all likelihood. Expecting mutations to result in complete abatement of their form of aging is asking a lot. I would expect to see at most a factor of 1-5 rate change for a given mutation. A rate of 1/1000 might be too generous. What if these great mutations are a lot less likely? I think the physics is against the existence of anyone with a substantially slowed overall rate of aging.

#5 StephenTruimm

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Posted 30 May 2010 - 07:56 AM

"If there are humans with substantially slower (or zero?) rates of aging, then the phenomenon should be observed in a similar, presumably tiny fraction of other mammals. However, to my knowledge we've never observed this phenomenon in animals. I suppose the counterargument would be that if it occurs at a rate of one in a billion, it would be very easy to miss, and animals in the wild would succumb to predation, disease, or accident soon enough not to be noticed."

In addition to the high natural death rate among animals in the wild, how likely is it that we would even notice an especially long lived sparrow, mouse, or deer? They wouldn't stand out. This would be particularly the case if they didn't appear to age. I don't think one needs to postulate extreme rarity here.

But the problem is thornier when it comes to domesticated animals -- to pets, in particular. One would think there would have been extremely long lived pet dogs if it were possible.

On the other hand, the population of pets is much lower than that of humans, and, further, pets are highly inbred. Perhaps that would hide it.

Your other point -- that of the several mutations -- becomes less of an absolute obstacle if the chance of each one is lowered from one in a billion to 1 in a 1000. But, what if there is an actual aging clock setting lifespans? It wouldn't have to consist of any very large number of genes. This is actively being investigated regarding Japanese quail vs. the common pigeon, which have almost an order of magnitude difference in life span (and rate of aging) despite being very similar otherwise. True, the Japanese quail is shortlived for a bird, but not tremendously so; conversely, pigeons are long lived, but there are other birds that live two or three times longer. Are the longer lived birds more fit than the shorter ones? It doesn't seem to be the case. A fairly large range of lifespans appears to be available among birds, without clear association with weight or anything else superficially obvious. This is one of the findings that lends credence to an aging clock hypothesis. -- Stephen

#6 StephenTruimm

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Posted 30 May 2010 - 08:00 AM

"Do you have anyone or any evidence of a true immortalist?"

Our website details the fragmentary evidence we have suggesting they do exist, yes. See in particular this static page:

http://www.trueimmor...et/?page_id=225

Note: the author of this particular page considers the evidence so far as conclusive. I myself would only call it suggestive. -- Stephen

#7 N.T.M.

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Posted 30 May 2010 - 08:50 AM

Though ordinarily it is often considered inappropriate to mention another website on a forum, I was invited to do so. On Trueimmortals.net, we have been investigating the possibility that there in fact are some people in the world who do not age normally. One class, the "true immortals," would not age at all. The other, which we whimsically called "Hafeems" or "half-immortals," would age very slowly. The underlying theory is that of a biological aging clock with various set points.

If there are humans with substantially slower (or zero?) rates of aging, then the phenomenon should be observed in a similar, presumably tiny fraction of other mammals. However, to my knowledge we've never observed this phenomenon in animals.


Not in mammals, but yes, it has been observed in other (usually aquatic and hermaphroditic) animals. This of course only occurs when a full equilibrium is established between damage and repair. They're rare, but there are quite a few biologically immortal animals.

*edit*

"He got himself seen skulking. He was (is) really fond of skulking, the darker the place the better, but he screwed up a lot. Left tracks everywhere, and I think the only reason his wife in Germany didn’t find him was that she’d gotten sick of him. (Not like his wife in Australia, who was still pining away when I got there.)"

I think I'd go so far as to say that I question the veracity of the article.

Nah, sounds legit. =P

Edited by N.T.M., 30 May 2010 - 08:56 AM.


#8 StephenTruimm

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Posted 30 May 2010 - 10:41 AM

"He got himself seen skulking. He was (is) really fond of skulking, the darker the place the better, but he screwed up a lot. Left tracks everywhere, and I think the only reason his wife in Germany didn’t find him was that she’d gotten sick of him. (Not like his wife in Australia, who was still pining away when I got there.)"

I think I'd go so far as to say that I question the veracity of the article. "


Sorry, that was a poor post to link to as an initial look. Flyss is an investigator willing to take great risks, and so she is often on the forefront. Her writing style, though, does not inspire trust. I personally have examined the evidence, however, and find it compelling. Perhaps, it would be better to look at this static page, written by me as a summary of the discoveries of the others (and a few of my own): http://www.trueimmor...et/?page_id=301

Notes also that we have more information than we present publicly. Immortal seagulls might simply get buy, but immortal humans (we hypothesize) take matters into their own hands. We respect them, and fear them too. Quite sensibly, I think, if you consider some of the events we've seen. Look at the long chain under "The Edlest", http://www.trueimmortals.net/?cat=60, best looked at in chronological rather than in standard blog order (read it in reverse, in other words.)

#9 JLL

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Posted 30 May 2010 - 11:17 AM

A fairly large range of lifespans appears to be available among birds, without clear association with weight or anything else superficially obvious.


Degree of tissue membrane saturation?

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#10 JLL

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Posted 30 May 2010 - 11:34 AM

The website looks like one of those online sort-of-RPG's... the story is pretty captivating... for fiction :|<

But really, these guys are exchanging information in the hex code of public images? Do you have the decoded message and the decoding algorithm at hand? What about the sound files? How was the analysis done?

#11 chris w

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Posted 30 May 2010 - 03:28 PM

I think the physics is against the existence of anyone with a substantially slowed overall rate of aging.


Ha, but remember Niner, we the Illuminati from Trilateral Commision do not bow to the petty science of physics and some statistics devised by "the cattle" !
Don't spill the beans to much Stephen Truimm, I wouldn't want to disturb The Highest Council :|<
Seriously, the site is a good read ( for conspiracy theories ), and that's all.

Edited by chris w, 30 May 2010 - 03:36 PM.


#12 StephenTruimm

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Posted 30 May 2010 - 11:00 PM

A fairly large range of lifespans appears to be available among birds, without clear association with weight or anything else superficially obvious.


Degree of tissue membrane saturation?


Saturation of what?

And, regardless, the question remains, what evolutionary forces are leading to order of magnitude variation in lifespan and aging speed between otherwise very similar birds?

#13 StephenTruimm

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Posted 30 May 2010 - 11:16 PM

I think the physics is against the existence of anyone with a substantially slowed overall rate of aging.


Ha, but remember Niner, we the Illuminati from Trilateral Commision do not bow to the petty science of physics and some statistics devised by "the cattle" !
Don't spill the beans to much Stephen Truimm, I wouldn't want to disturb The Highest Council :|<
Seriously, the site is a good read ( for conspiracy theories ), and that's all.


Really, there's no violation of laws of statistics -- the problem is biological plausibility. The hypothesis would have to be that immortal members of a species are evolutionarily disadvantageous to the survival of the species (but otherwise possible) and that therefore a genetic senescence program is added on to prevent it. This aging clock would be strongly conserved, by being tied to an essential cell process (so that it can't be easily removed without causing death to the organism.) However, it would not necessarily be impossible for it to be removed by chance.

So, not impossible. But is it likely? Probably not. One can think of other more complex scenarios. I know a number of biologists holding a flame for a modifiable aging clock, vulnerable to manipulation by a retrovirus, and I've heard some rather complex ways of getting around the difficulties proposed.

#14 e Volution

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Posted 30 May 2010 - 11:34 PM

Wonderful idea (I always loved highlander!) but I think niner really hit the nail on the head... All the factors involved in ageing make this improbable most likely impossible... Doesn't this forum have links to Aubrey, could we ask mr aging himself?

#15 StephenTruimm

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 08:42 AM

Wonderful idea (I always loved highlander!) but I think niner really hit the nail on the head... All the factors involved in ageing make this improbable most likely impossible... Doesn't this forum have links to Aubrey, could we ask mr aging himself?


Highlander, of course, had a supernatural element involved: they could not be killed at all (except by each other, as I recall.) One of the peculiarly believable characteristics of the people we've been tracking is that they're singularly non heroic. Rather, they exhibit psychological characteristics that are troubling for those of us interested in the possibility of immortality: pervasive fear of injury and consequence extreme caution and conservatism.

This only makes sense, as if one can live forever in principle, but could die as easily as anyone, one might be inclined to avoid all risk. See this post:
http://www.trueimmortals.net/?p=1767

The consequence might be a rather shallow life. -- Stephen

#16 Solarclimax

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 09:07 AM

I think the physics is against the existence of anyone with a substantially slowed overall rate of aging.


Ha, but remember Niner, we the Illuminati from Trilateral Commision do not bow to the petty science of physics and some statistics devised by "the cattle" !
Don't spill the beans to much Stephen Truimm, I wouldn't want to disturb The Highest Council :|<
Seriously, the site is a good read ( for conspiracy theories ), and that's all.


Said thie with the all seeing eye.

#17 StephenTruimm

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 10:33 PM

We're about to photograph one of them -- if he shows up.
There's been an interesting discussion on our site of how one would verify the claim that a given person aged far slower than expected. In general, it would be difficult to date a claim back to before the age of photography. But in the current case there is the issue of a person who (as he claims) usually avoids photographs in order not to be found out against his will, but is now trying to prove his claimed age to us.

Relevant post: http://www.trueimmortals.net/?p=3334

#18 StephenTruimm

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 06:39 PM

We're about to photograph one of them -- if he shows up.
There's been an interesting discussion on our site of how one would verify the claim that a given person aged far slower than expected. In general, it would be difficult to date a claim back to before the age of photography. But in the current case there is the issue of a person who (as he claims) usually avoids photographs in order not to be found out against his will, but is now trying to prove his claimed age to us.

Relevant post: http://www.trueimmortals.net/?p=3334



He did show up -- confirmed! Follow the chain of posts backwards from here: http://www.trueimmortals.net/?p=3351

Another point of interest regards the apparent single order of magnitude variation from the norm in aging speed, within the bounds of possibility if animal models are considered. See this post:http://www.trueimmortals.net/?p=3494

#19 Forever21

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 12:38 AM

I'm sorry but this is bullshit.

#20 distinct

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 12:43 AM

I'm sorry but this is bullshit.


Not sure if the possibility of genuine immortals is bull-shit, but yes, these blog posts certainly appear to be fiction. Albeit really, really entertaining fiction at times.

#21 e Volution

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 05:40 AM

Thought you guys would like this :~

Posted Image

Attached File  keanu.jpg   384.52KB   19 downloads

#22 Forever21

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 06:56 AM

FAIL

We have Keanu's child & teen photos. Even videos of him in his high school / college years.

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#23 Ghostrider

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 09:51 AM

FAIL

We have Keanu's child & teen photos. Even videos of him in his high school / college years.


Growing != aging.

I doubt there are people who can avoid aging. It would mean that at least the 7 deadly causes of aging are somehow not happening in them. Law of entropy.

#24 chris w

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 02:23 PM

I'm sorry but this is bullshit.


Ya think :~ ?

#25 solbanger

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 08:19 PM

Reminds me of the thread where someone claimed to have discovered a conversation between an apparently immortal man and an online AI program. The man was sick of losing his friends so he decided to cozy up to the software program. The poster "found" the recorded texts and couldn't believe what he read. But I thought it was all bogus. Here's my reply:

http://www.imminst.o...mp;#entry344279

#26 StephenTruimm

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 10:05 PM

We've stumbled across something that seems to be right up your alley. ("Your" in the sense of everyone on this site.)

See this post, and the comment by "sirrian." http://www.trueimmortals.net/?p=3701

It appears that somehow the SENS foundation is related to two probable anagrams, as well as a mirrored room and Glenn's disappearance. Can any of you help decipher the anagrams, or identify the room?

As mentioned in that post, the anagrams are "read by eye rug," and "iced his lips."

The room is pictured here: http://www.trueimmortals.net/?p=3628

#27 StephenTruimm

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 03:35 AM

The anagrams have been deciphered. "Read by eye room" converts to "Aubrey de Grey." In retrospect, this should have been obvious, but it was solved not by us, but by a reader. See this post: http://www.trueimmortals.net/?p=3711

The second anagram, "Iced his lips" converts to "His disciple." http://www.trueimmortals.net/?p=3711

So we now suspect the involvement of a student of Dr. de Grey, quite possible one who is doing something that his teacher would never for a moment sanction: actually practicing the elements of SENS on human beings, rather than awaiting further advancement of the techniques in the proper ways. If anyone of you is aware of such an unscrupulous practitioner, please let us know!

#28 StephenTruimm

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Posted 24 June 2010 - 03:32 PM

I'm sorry but this is bullshit.


Not sure if the possibility of genuine immortals is bull-shit, but yes, these blog posts certainly appear to be fiction. Albeit really, really entertaining fiction at times.


Perhaps this post begins to show the method in our apparent madness.

http://www.trueimmortals.net/?p=3975

#29 EmbraceUnity

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 04:51 AM

I love the site guys. You don't have any ads, so that makes it seem more authentic. It reads like a Dan Brown novel.

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#30 StephenTruimm

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 05:32 AM

I love the site guys. You don't have any ads, so that makes it seem more authentic. It reads like a Dan Brown novel.

Glad you appreciate the way in which we are telling our adventures. Unlike what happens in a novel, we don't know what we're doing in advance; we bumble around; we reach dead ends; members of our team die, and the latter for no grand reason at all, just the conspiracy that nature upholds, **her intent to kill us all.**

Lately, we've been discussing some of the consequences of ending the age-old rampage of natural death, and the likely responses by stakeholders as they anticipate what will soon happen. The chain of posts detailing our concerns begins here: http://www.trueimmortals.net/?p=4154 (You can follow the "continued" links from there.)

P.S. Feel free to leave comments on the site. It can be quite helpful, and may very well influence the course of our further investigations.




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