22 replies to this topic

[TheFountain]

I notice that whenever I do more than 20 minutes of cardio a week I begin to actually gain visceral fat. When I do weights alone I don't and my body fat seems to stay lower. My assumption is that too much cardio is causing catabolism to the muscle tissue in favor of fat stores. Anything else?

[mikeinnaples]

I notice that whenever I do more than 20 minutes of cardio a week I begin to actually gain visceral fat. When I do weights alone I don't and my body fat seems to stay lower. My assumption is that too much cardio is causing catabolism to the muscle tissue in favor of fat stores. Anything else?

Not enough information to really comment. I do full body strength training 3 days a week and run 4 miles 2 days a week ...then switch it the following week (2 strength, 3 running). I never strength train and do cardio on the same day. If you are doing this, it could be causing your problem. Low T levels ...have you gotten it tested ever? ....it could be not enough protein to support the strength training ....it could be your diet .....it could be a million things. Unfortunately, without more information, it is hard to give you any real direction.

[aLurker]

Try interval training instead of regular cardio.

[Skötkonung]

I saw a recent study that showed men who participate in endurance sports often have testosterone levels that are significantly lower than that of their untrained peers. Long-distance runners, marathon runners, and swimmers often subject their bodies to hours of rigorous training per day. Intense training impairs the immune system. This may be the connection – long-term impairment of the immune system causes the pituitary gland to halt some production of testosterone. Or, it could mean the body simply doesn’t have the resources available for testosterone production after all that exercise.

I've also seen studies indicating that weight training increases testosterone, and that slow-type aerobic exercise (like walking) tends to have no effect on testosterone. Perhaps alternating your aerobic exercise with weight training, hatha or vinyasa yoga, or pilates might be beneficial.

Here are some other pointers for preserving testosterone production:

• Consume whey protein plus glutamine before training: Whey is an easy-to-digest protein that is high in branched-chain amino acids (BCAAs). One study showed that consuming BCAAs before an endurance activity helped sustain testosterone. In practical terms, 20 g of whey would yield roughly 7 g of BCAAs. Throw in 5 g of glutamine to help moderate cortisol and maintain testosterone. Combine the whey/glutamine with a small amount of low-GI carbohydrates. Consume this meal about 40 minutes before training.
• Eat Carbs Post-Workout: Many bodybuilders take a post workout meal abundant in simple carbohydrates, about .5 to .6 grams per pound of body weight. A post workout high-insulin environment suppresses cortisol, the muscle-destroying hormone that can push your metabolism into a catabolic or muscle-wasting state. Elevated cortisol not only tears down muscle tissue, but it also decreases testosterone. Adequate post workout carbohydrate intake can help prevent cortisol levels from driving down testosterone.

[TheFountain]

Skot I do regularly consume whey protein but I seem to be doing post-work out as opposed to pre-work out. You think taking 20 grams before and 20 grans after would yield better results? With regard to idea number 2. I always thought eating carbs first thing in the morning was the best thing for gluconeogenesis because insulin spikes that occur throughout the latter part of the day are bad with carb consumption, not so much earlier in the day. This is why I always consumed the bulk of my carbs within 2 hours after waking. But I will certainly try this because I was not aware of the elevated cortisol issues related to catabolism and working out. Does this apply to endurance training as well, when someone uses lighter waits at 20 reps each?

Mike I definitely consume enough protein to at least maintain adequate muscle mass. Or so I believe. I consume about 120 grams a day and it comes from a combination of food and powder supplements. Here is a rough breakdown.

4 eggs=20 grams of protein
4 oz of shrimp=25 grams of protein
2 servings of low fat tofu (because of the PUFAs)=14 grams of protein
2 scoops of whey protein=40 grams of protein
2 servings raw cheddar=14 grams of protein
1 serving salmon=13 grams of protein

Other miscellaneous sources of low protein throughout the day, such as oatmeal, macadamia nuts, etc add about another 15 grams or so.

My diet is mainly low to moderate carbs and I get the bulk of them in the morning. I am an aqua-vegetarian which means vegetarian plus shrimp and sometimes salmon. I consume mostly leafy green vegetables like collard greens, spinach and kale with some other crucifers like peppers. I eat mainly low fructose fruits like berries and avocados. I seldom eat bananas anymore even though I like the taste. I do not consume any extraneous sugars outside of natural sugars found in foods. I do not consume bread, crackers or any other kind of high carb, processed foods. I would estimate my carb consumption as having been hovering around 70-100 grams a day, which isn't bad IMO. I have been doing lighter weights at higher reps lately for the purpose of endurance training. I've even noticed an increase in muscle tone while doing this even though there is no size increase. My sleep schedule is another thing altogether. I pretty much do get at least 8-9 hours a day but I do not sleep at regular intervals because my job is on my computer and school is out till september. I don't know what impact this might be having but I know that extra aerobics always seems to add body fat as opposed to detract from it. Very insightful responses so far though.

Edited by TheFountain, 07 July 2010 - 01:35 AM.

[mikeinnaples]

A few things:

1. Seems like you are getting enough protein.

2. I would give what Skot suggests a try as well with the before/after.

3. I think your weight is also too low and your reps too high. I understand where you are coming from completely, however, I think you can up the weight and lower the reps a bit and not see much of an increase in size. I would wait to see how Skot weighs in on that, but personally I find that if I jump alternate cycles of extreme low reps (2-4) / extreme high weight and high reps (12-15) / low weight, I can increase my strength/tone/endurance without bulking up as much as I used to when I was lifting in the 6-10 rep/weight range. That is atleast what works for 'me' and I find bulking up undesirable because it interferes with surfing in more ways than one.

[xontek]

Anything else?

You don't lift hard enough. 20 minutes of cardio, and you can tell a difference?

I agree with intervals. Those kick ass.

[TheFountain]

Anything else?

You don't lift hard enough. 20 minutes of cardio, and you can tell a difference?

I agree with intervals. Those kick ass.

How do you know I do not life hard enough? Basically when I do higher reps (15-20) I do 25 pound dumbells, when I do lower reps (8-10) I do 40 pounds dumbells. I am considering doing 50 pounders for the traps and chest though. 20 minutes of intense cardio a week definitely kicks my metabolism into high gear. But I think the lower weighted, higher rep endurance training with weights is akin to cardio as well. In fact I notice more tone increase with lower weight, higher reps than with higher weight at lower reps. Anyone know any supplements that can aid in fat burning also? Acai berries are suppose to be noted for this, is there any truth to this claim?

[ajnast4r]

caffeine, egcg

no, any claims about acai are false

lifting heavier produces greater losses in bodyfat & greater gains in muscle. if you can do more than 6 reps of any exercise on your last set you need to add 5lbs and try again. no progressive overload = no muscle. imo, high rep low weight for tone is a myth... its great for recovery but its not going to build significant amounts of muscle. heavy, compound, progressive overload will fill you out to your genetics limits... when you get happy with where your at physically, stop adding weight.

'cardio' type exercise causes great muscle catabolism during exercise which is probably why youre getting skinny fat. have carbs & drink some whey or bcaa's before and you'll be fine.

Edited by ajnast4r, 13 July 2010 - 03:26 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

if you can do more than 6 reps of any exercise on your last set you need to add 5lbs and try again. no progressive overload = no muscle. imo, high rep low weight for tone is a myth... its great for recovery but its not going to build significant amounts of muscle. heavy, compound, progressive overload will fill you out to your genetics limits... when you get happy with where your at physically, stop adding weight.

A few comments on this....

1. The 6 rep thing is dependant on your goals and your purpose

2. low weight / high rep is great for conditioning ....is can be very valid depending on your goals.

Judging from the comments I have seen TheFountain make in the past, my guess is that he doesn't want to bulk up.... probably going for the very lean/wiry strong look. I do just a step above that myself.

[Shepard]

There are multiple possible reasons, but it's impossible to guess without more accurate measurements and information.

[xontek]

How do you know I do not life hard enough? Basically when I do higher reps (15-20)

Because you are doing 15-20 reps. If you are already doing cardio, you don't need to do high reps with free weights.

[SuperBig]

Most likely it is due to cortisol release from the cardio. So, adding interval style training could exacerbate the problem, depending on protein/carb timing. As you said, when you do not do cario your body comp is better. This could be due to testoerone and/or GH from the weight training.

Remember you have protein synthesis and protein breakdown going on. The reason you have 15-30g whey pre-workout is so that it starts being broken down during your workout and keeps you in a positive protein balance. Then you can follow your workout with a regular meal with carbs and protein, again to ensure you stay in a positive protein balance. Carbs work by preventing protein breakdown. So they are synergistic to staying in a positive protein balance.

Lyle McDonald has an excellent book, "The Protein Book" which covers all this, as well as his site that goes thru this in enormous detail.

So, stick with the weight training and time your protein around your workouts.

[NR2(x)]

Your body compsition is better when you dont do cardio??????? How? I really dont not understand this comment, you need to work on your health. Last years i was 270pounds, lean and hard, i know that you need to do real sports that involve cardio, and more is better.
What i did was
play team competitive sports 2 times a week,
train 2 times including lots of anaerobics,
run slowly twice for more than an hour(recovery run 50% tempo, up this much and you start to get cortisol probs etc)
Lift three days a week but really push myself when im at my freshest(stimulate .
Bike or Swim interval training twice.

If you want to add more than a kilo a week, then maybe cut carido down, but this should be cycled so that you optimise functionality not asthetics. I would not want to gain at a rate faster than 1kg per week, as i have seen negative effects in others who have.

Do 2-3 rep sets at the begining of session, 85% of maximium and 12-20 rep sets at the end
*After warm up

Edited by NR2(x), 11 August 2010 - 11:33 AM.

[kenny001]

Calories in < calories out = weight loss.

If you are too much in a defecit (including not enough protein) you will lose muscle mass.

If you lose "weight" and most of that is muscle, what will be left is FAT = "skinny fat".

Losing and gaining weight both are like 85% nutrition. If you dont do it properly you will end up looking like crap.

[maggilane]

well, the reason could be because when you do aerobics then it just work on your feet more then your stomach or your biceps because running is like giving the strength to your leg.So, try ab machine

Edited by maxwatt, 23 December 2010 - 03:18 PM.
spam link

[nowayout]

I saw a recent study that showed men who participate in endurance sports often have testosterone levels that are significantly lower than that of their untrained peers.

"More than 20 minutes a week" does not sound like endurance sports. Of course, it depends on the meaning of "more".

Interesting factoid - marathon runners tend to have more atherosclerosis than people who exercise moderately. There is such a thing as too much endurance exercise. I doubt the Op belongs to this category, though.

[nowayout]

HIIT is said to be more muscle-sparing than regular ol' boring aerobics. You might try that.

[GhostBuster]

I notice that whenever I do more than 20 minutes of cardio a week I begin to actually gain visceral fat. When I do weights alone I don't and my body fat seems to stay lower. My assumption is that too much cardio is causing catabolism to the muscle tissue in favor of fat stores. Anything else?

Cardio is not good for you.



Ever seen a runner that looks young and fresh in old age?

[Skötkonung]

I notice that whenever I do more than 20 minutes of cardio a week I begin to actually gain visceral fat. When I do weights alone I don't and my body fat seems to stay lower. My assumption is that too much cardio is causing catabolism to the muscle tissue in favor of fat stores. Anything else?

Cardio is not good for you.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=RiHhc7eLpQY

Ever seen a runner that looks young and fresh in old age?

That's because they run outside and get lots of sun exposure. Cardio is good for you as long as it isn't in excess. Any healthy adult should be able to run a mile or two at a decent pace.

[yoyo]

'cardio' makes you too tired to do any real exercise, but doesn't cause much beneficial change.

[TheFountain]

The main thing I remember about my cardio days is that it took strength away from me. Strength I needed for lifting weights, which, when it came time for it, I didn't have. I find walking long distances (5 miles or so) a couple times a week is better than short bursts of cardio. You walk at a reasonably pace and you don't have those hormone issues mentioned earlier in the thread, plus you still burn fat. Just not as quickly.

[icyT]

Long-term low intensity cardio can catabolize muscles but I'd think it'd take a lot more than 20 minutes for that to occur. Plenty of muscular non-fat people go for long walks. It's the ultramarathonners and stuff that have the problems.