41 replies to this topic

[pinballwizard]

FACT: Stress is one of the top contributors to cognitive decline

What if you have already had a life full of all-nighters, workaholism, stress, and caffeine ( and some nicotine)?? Are there any particular nootropics for this that I am unaware of? I wonder what happens in particular in the brain to stress and why it is so big with mental decline.

I know B-complex is good for "present" stress. However, I want to talk about the supplements for stress that has already taken its toll.

My father always talked about stress being a big deal. It really affected his health and cognition. (It probably runs in the family.)

Lets brainstorm. If you are "lurking", stop. Don't be afraid to respond.

Thanks,

Pinball

[bdnf]

The stress response entails an increase in cortisol secretions by the adrenal glands. Cortisol has been demonstrated to reduce hippocampal volume. This is coupled by a decline in memory, since the hippocampus is one of the main brain structure implicated in memory.

So, what to do?

Well, SSRI-type antidepressants have been shown to stimulate neurogensis in the hippocampus of rats after they have undergone a period of chronic stress (in which their hippocampus was shrunken).

But, does this extend to humans? I'm not sure, but it's worth a shot.

Good luck.

[scottl]

1. Supps reported to be useful in lowering cortisol include vit. c, ginko, and phosphatidyl serine.

Also from LEF:

LIFE EXTENSION DRUG GH3 or KH3
GH3 and KH3 are popular products whose active agent is procaine, an anti-aging compound discovered in the 1950s by Romanian physician Ana Asian. Both GH3 and KH3 suppress monoamine oxidase (MAO) levels. Elevated MAO destroys the essential neurotransmitters dopamine and norepinephrine. GH3 or KH3 also suppress elevated serum cortisol levels, which has been linked to several of the degenerative diseases of aging. There are better cortisol suppressing therapies such as low dose RU-486, but at this time, RU-486 is not available to Americans.

GH3 and KH3 can be taken every day including the days you take deprenyl, which is a selective MAO inhibitor. An appropriate dose of these drugs is one to two GH3 or KH3 tablets daily. Some doctors believe you should take a five day break from these drugs once a month to avoid too much monoamine oxidase suppression, but our review of the scientific literature does not support the need for taking such a break.

2. There was information which discussed Bacopa monniera (Brahmi) and its protective effects on the hippocampus, although I don't remember where I read it.

3. Relaxation exercise which is useful in combatting stress is here:

http://www.imminst.o...t=0

4. I can not prove it, but I suspect that a regular restorative yoga practice over time can have significant benefits along your area of concern. You'll need a teacher to help guide you with this, but there is a good book by one of the gurus of restorative yoga:

Relax and Renew: Restful Yoga for Stressful Times
by Judith Lasater Ph.D. P.T.

[pinballwizard]

Cosmos,

you might like this link for cortisol reduction

http://www.harpercol.../0060087005.pdf

Download the big .pdf and type Control F and type in Cortisol.
The author says cortisol is the biggest destroyer of brain cells out there.

Pinball

[lynx]

Tianeptine is the demonstrated superstar in regards to repairing/preventing stress related brain damage. In my case it worked like a charm.

In terms of preventing hippocampal shrinkage from stress only 2 substances have been found

Phenytoin
and
Tianeptine.

For repair, SSRI's work, but Tianeptine is superior.

[pinballwizard]

Tianeptine is the demonstrated superstar in regards to repairing/preventing stress related brain damage. In my case it worked like a charm.

In terms of preventing hippocampal shrinkage from stress only 2 substances have been found

Phenytoin
and
Tianeptine.

For repair, SSRI's work, but Tianeptine is superior.

Lynx,

you make it seem like you used the drug solely for this purpose of getting rid of the damage. Did you also take it to battle some sort of fatigue-depression? Isn't this used of anti-depression. Is it safe for regular people? Would doctors ever prescribe people with it if their patients explained this situation and asked for it?

Pinball

[scottl]

Pinballwizard,

1. Sorry, I will get back to you on the other post. I answer is a bit long and I'll try to do it tomorrow or Thursday.

2. "Would doctors ever prescribe people with it if their patients explained this situation and asked for it?"

I are one (MD) and can tell you that most docs would not. There are some...alternatively minded or life extension types who would.

3. Bacopa:

(J Ethnopharmacol 1982 Mar;5(2):205-14) Results suggest that Bacopa, like the anti-Parkinson drug deprenyl, exhibits a significant antioxidant effect after subchronic administration which, unlike the latter, extends to the hippocampus as well.

http://www.dadamo.co.../cortiguard.htm

[lynx]

It doesn't matter if a US doctor prescribes it or not. They are trained/regulated by Anglo-pharm and this is a French drug, unapproved in the US. In the free market one can order it on their own.

Edit: I used it for depression, which I knew was caused by the accumulated effects of stress. It now appears that ALL anti-depressants work by inducing neurotrophic substances, Tianeptine just happens to be the best at repairing/protecting.

[pinballwizard]

Tianeptine is the demonstrated superstar in regards to repairing/preventing stress related brain damage. In my case it worked like a charm.

In terms of preventing hippocampal shrinkage from stress only 2 substances have been found

Phenytoin
and
Tianeptine.

For repair, SSRI's work, but Tianeptine is superior.

Lynx,

I have not found any articles that show that tianeptince improves cognition in normal people or experiments on those with stress-related cognitive problems. Regarding phenytoin, I have actually found an article that the drug actually impairs cognition. http://www.life-enha...late.asp?ID=520

Are these drugs appropriate for those that might not have the ailments for which the drug was originally intended?

Thanks for your response in advance,

Pinball

[lynx]

I didn't say that it improves cognition. You were talking about stress and the brain. Tianeptine does improve vigilance in ADHD, according to a small Italian study. The phenytoin/nootropic debate has been raging for years, and I wasn't saying it's a smart drug it just prevents hippocampal shrinkage in response to stress.

[strongman]

I believe resveratrol helps cells deal with stress.

Cheers,

Strongman.

[treonsverdery]

paro x etine reduces the volume of the amygdala the emotional preprocessor that participates n the perception of threat neuropsychopharmacology 2k4 april 29 medline on the compound + amygdala theres an ptsd might be OCD cure that is an epilepsy drug Tiagabine that differs from Tianeptine n=7 12 14ths of the women improved J Clin Psychiatry 2k3 twelvethmonth p (1430 - 9)

Edited by treonsverdery, 19 October 2006 - 03:34 AM.

[pinballwizard]

Thanks guys,

I am reading the book "Brain Longevity" right now and the neurologist says that stress, i.e. the hormone cortisol is the biggest killer of brain cells and perhaps the main factor behind Alzheimers. He also believes that Alzheimers is just code language for a really bad memory with age making it worse. (I will give some book reports later)

Like everyone else, he insists there are no silver bullets, but managing the cortisol and repairing the damage is the closest thing to it.

Treo, English please, lol, I can only conclude one thing from your quote which is that you are a doctor. just kidding... [lol]

paro x etine reduces the volume of the amygdala the emotional preprocessor that participates n the perception of threat  neuropsychopharmacology 2k4 april 29 medline on the compound + amygdala theres an ptsd might be OCD cure that is an epilepsy drug Tiagabine that differs from Tianeptine n=7 12 14ths of the women improved J Clin Psychiatry 2k3 twelvethmonth  p (1430 - 9)

[nootropi]

see this

Edited by nootropi, 29 October 2004 - 06:31 PM.

[pinballwizard]

Has anyone used tianeptine yet that has not had depression?

[scottl]

Has anyone used tianeptine yet that has not had depression?

That was my question.

Any thoughts Lifemirage or Lynx?

[lynx]

I certainly don't see why it couldn't be used. It has very few side effects, is cheap, and very effective. It is a matter of cost/benefit/risk analysis like anything else we experiment with here. I certainly wouldn't use Prozac for something like this, because of the possibilities of side effects.

[stellar]

Things get pretty expensive if you use IAS as a source, when you factor in the "loading" dose of 12.5x6 the first week, followed by 3x12.5 for the next month and a half or so.....
Indianmeds4u has it for like $15, there is also betterlifepharmacy which has it for $20.
I'm not sure which to go for. I'd really like to try both tianeptine and deprenyl. I may go with the deprenyl tabs b/c they're cheaper....

[scottl]

Thanks Lynx.

[ejdavis1]

Holosync brainwave entrainment has been shown to significantly lower cortisol levels. Holosync is made and sold by Centerpointe Research and is a little pricey. The product comes as audio CDs and is used with headphones. The entrainment results from embedded sine waves having a slight frequency difference being fed into each ear.

Other entrainment products which probably have similar effect on cortisol are made by Awakened Minds and the Monroe Institute.

You can create your own entrainment signals also with the brainwave generator (bwgen.com)

Edited by ejdavis1, 15 April 2005 - 08:03 PM.

[lynx]

Regarding Tianeptine vs Deprenyl. I have used both and I must say that there is no comparison. Tianeptine is way better, both in terms of cognition improvement and the subjective feeling. Tianeptine is not only an antidepressant but it is also a mood brightener. Tianeptine can actually be euphoric, if taken at 25mg + sublingually.
Deprenyl can be a mood brightener, but for me those effects necessitate doses which produce insomnia and agitation.

[pinballwizard]

Lynx or anyone,

Might you consider an SSRI to compliment the Tianeptine? If so which one?

-disclaimer-
Let me state for the record that we have not found anyone that has used tianeptine that has not had depression. Also, that I could not find much on tianeptine use for those without depression. Further, that I have no background in medicine. I am going to check my cortisol levels and do much more research before considering the drug. I am not giving medical advice, nor do I ever.

-about tianeptine-
What makes tianeptine so interesting is that there is reasearch saying that it increases volume in hippocampus. People that have suffered stress (code language for cortisol damage) and depression can have their hippocampus decrease by up to 2/3s. The hippocampus is critical for memory. The initial starting point where memories are routed to the upper part of the brain where memories are stored. You have seen the move "Memento", right? That guy lost his hippocampus.

Now, phosphatidyl Serine, DHEA and other items prevent cortisol damage. And from what I read, cortisol is considered the biggest murderer of neurons... there are not a lot of items that actually are purported to increase the hippocampus (from what has been posted by Lynx). An SSRI like lithium (ewww, don't want that?!?) or something can do some neurogenisis, however... Not sure I am into being completely lethargic, have side effects or take something that is so taboo as a regular SSRI without being depressed in the least.

Sincerely,

Pinballwizard

[pinballwizard]

Here is some material I found useful on stress, Tianeptine affects on memory, and Tianeptine Side effects.

STRESS
http://www.amazon.co...=books&n=507846
<--read this book for the layman on DHEA



TIANEPTINE RELATED



ON MEMORY, ATTENTION, ETC
http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=15034228 <--CONCLUSIONS: This preliminary study indicates that tianeptine might be a slightly effective beneficial and useful treatment for ADHD, reducing hyperactive behaviors and enabling greater attentional ability with minimal side effects.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=8986335 <--pretreatment of tianeptine helps stressed out rats in spatial tasks.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=1836613 <--alcohol boozing rats get improved memory if they are young rats and some old rats.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=11224046 More drunk rats with diong well with tianeptine.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=12372016 <--The antidepressant tianeptine persistently modulates glutamate receptor currents of the hippocampal CA3 commissural associational synapse in chronically stressed rats. Pinball: whatever that means... I think it means that it protects your brain from being overloaded with glutamate which is bad... no clue though.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=2680463 <--interesting.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=10683709 <---interesting... dont know what it means though.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=15639031 <--this drug can reverse the deleterious (Pinball: deleterious ="that is harmful in subtle or unexpected ways") effects of stress on neuronal plasticity, thereby acting on the causes of psychiatric disorders.

TIANEPTINE RELATED ARTICLES ON SIDE-EFECTS

http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=3180119 Tianeptine withdrawl is minimal. Moreover, tianeptine does not disturb the hematologic, renal, hepatic parameters, even in alcoholic patients in the detoxification period. It does not induce physical or psychological signs of dependence when discontinued, even in alcoholic patients or drug addicts. No abuse of tianeptine and no tolerance were noted in detoxified opiate addicts.

http://probe.usp.br/...article=127_cac <--might be helpful but Have no access to it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=14760227 <--dont abuse the drugs.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=12766932 <--less sexual dysfunction than other SSRIs.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=11772119 in a 3 month trial it is as safe as paroxetine. There was no significant difference in clinical safety parameters. CONCLUSION: Tianeptine appears to be as effective and as safe as paroxetine for the ambulatory treatment of major depression.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=11349388 <--not much of a sedative like other SSRIs. CONCLUSION: The apparent lack of counter-therapeutic side-effects produced by an acute dose of tianeptine suggest that it may be a suitable antidepressant for use in an ambulant population.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=8091370 muscle pain anecdote.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=8415473 <--might show whether or not tianeptine might be good for post-menopause related depression besides HRT... which might be good for my friends mother.


http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=1389024 Longterm use of tianeptine in depressed people. No evidence of tolerance or withdrawal symptoms was seen after treatment was stopped. These results suggest that tianeptine has the potential to provide safe antidepressant activity in both the acute and chronic phases of treatment.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=2306747 <--less cardiac problems than other tricyclic antidepressents.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=9183949
http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=1836619 tianeptine overdosage. Fewer cases of orthostatic hypotension were observed than with other antidepressants. Suicide attempts with tianeptine overdosage did not lead to death due to cardiovascular complications.

[ageless]

Where can I get Tianeptine?
I live in Canada... anyone.

Thanks

[cesium]

Interesting links pinballwizard, thanks. I found this one especially interesting:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=15639031

If anyone knows of a reliable online supplier of prescription drugs at a reasonable price (for delivery to the US) I would be interested in hearing about it.

[lynx]

If you want reliability, then International Anti-Aging Systems is the way to go. I would not take Indian Tianeptine, because of purity/fraud concerns.