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Rol82's Regimen


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#31 Rational Madman

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 01:15 PM

I'd like to pose a question that has stumped me a bit....

What is the best strategy for upregulating mu and v2 receptors? Both are unrelated, of course, but underappreciated pharmacological targets. There are many well known ligands for the former target, but they carry unpalatable side effects. The latter target is even more frustrating, since Desmopressin appears to be the only attainable substance with a known affinity, but is quickly disqualified because of its multiple side effects. If anyone remembers, the protein RGS-14's binding relationship with the V2 receptor was considered to be especially critical to its cognitive effects, and the neuropsychiatric benefits of mu receptor upregulation should require no explanation.



The D1 receptor is another interesting target deserving mention.



#32 medievil

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 01:18 PM

What about D4? AFAIK that one plays a much bigger role in the prefrontal cortex then D1.

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#33 Rational Madman

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 01:43 PM

What about D4? AFAIK that one plays a much bigger role in the prefrontal cortex then D1.


Indeed, very true. For the legion of ADHD sufferers, the etiological role of D4 is especially important.

#34 Recortes

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 01:57 PM


Sirtuin 1 activation, and Phosphodiesterase 4 Inhibition: Luteolin, which I've concluded to be superior to Resveratrol.




Rol82,

just out of curiosity. How did you conclude that?.

#35 aLurker

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 03:04 PM

To answer your previous question: you get upregulation of mu receptors with LDN.

Regarding your regimen, your target dose of Rasagiline seems to be much higher than what you mentioned before. What's the motivation behind that?

Also, since you mentioned methylphenidate, dexmethylphenidate instead of amp perhaps?

How would Acitretin or Pioglitazone enhance learning? I haven't heard of either, any evidence for this?

Are you going to take varenicline to stop smoking or do you think it will work well with the nicotine somehow?

#36 Animal

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 04:23 PM

Some good points have been made, and before I address the questions about varenicline, I'll have to delve a bit further. There is some evidence, however, that the monotherapeutic use of varenicline has cognition enhancing properties, and because of its affinities for nicotinic receptors, it is being investigated for use in patients suffering from schizophrenia, Alzheimer's, and other conditions characterized by mild cognitive impairment, but the outcomes are mixed. Interestingly, when combined with bupropion, in concert, both deliver better outcomes than monotherapy, but without the full texts, I'm unable to determine the cognitive effects of this combination. But, I'm very curious, and may experiment should I encounter confidence brightening findings about this combination. Varenicline also carries the risk of promoting behavioral disturbances and suicidal idealation, which has dampened my enthusiasm somewhat, but adjunctive 5ht2a/c antagonism should resolve that problem. For now, though, I'm on the Rasagiline train, since I've concluded that it's safer than many feared, and have been heartened by a friend's experimentation with the substance. For cognitive enhancement, alpha 7 upregulation is certainly important, but there are other pharmacological targets that need to be considered, and I intend to personally investigate over the course of several months.

Reelin Promotion: Low dose Valproic Acid, Tianeptine, and or low dose Amisulpride.
Acetylcholinesterase Inhibition: Donepezil, but the ideal dosage remains shrouded.
Maintenance of Tyrosine Hydoxylase, Glial Cell Line Derived Neurotrophic Factor, and the promotion of SOD: Rasagiline, at doses of 1-4 mg/day.
Glutathione Promotion: Cabergoline, twice weekly.
Activation of Nuclear Receptors: Pioglitazone, or Acitretin.
mTOR and calciuneurin inhibition: Once or twice weekly use of Rapamycin.
Sirtuin 1 activation, and Phosphodiesterase 4 Inhibition: Luteolin, which I've concluded to be superior to Resveratrol.
Protein Biosynthesis Enhancer: Cerebrolysin, or Pioglitazone.
Neutralizing the Effects of Alcohol: Valdoxan, or something melatonergic.
Concentration: Amphetamine in conjunction with xanthines like green tea or freeze dried organic coffee (which is exceptionally rich in pyroglutamic acid).
Learning Enhancer: The racetams in conjunction with intramuscular choline alfoscerate, nicotine, Acitretin, or Pioglitazone.
Mitochondrial Energy: Rasagiline, Pioglitazone, Methylene Blue (pharmaceutical grade), or Dimebon, once the price falls inevitably.
Inflammation: Rapamycin, Pioglitazone, fish oil, flavonoids, Rasagiline, and xanthines.
Preventing the breakdown of Cyclic adenosine and cyclic guanosine monosphosphate: Perhaps Cialis, which has considerable appeal, and when used adjunctively with cranial electrotherapy, should induce oxytocin release without resulting in cognitive impairment. Anecdotally, I find Cialis to be an exceptionally pro-social drug.
Neuroplasticity: Tianeptine, Valdoxan, and one of the racetams.
Nicotinic receptors: Donepezil, Varenicline, Tropisetron, and nicotine (I haven't decided on the best delivery mechanism, but to my girlfriend's chagrin, my favorite has become pipe smoking).
Visual Processing: Probably Tolcapone or Entacapone.
Prepulse Inhibition and Prefrontal Efficiency: Either Tolcapone or Entacaopone, but most likely the latter because of serious safety concerns.
Executive Function: Agents that are dopaminergic and noradrenergic.
Reward: Running, at home acupuncture, or perhaps upregulation of opioid receptors with Naltrexone.
V2 receptor upregulation: Critical, but I have no ideas. Desmopressin or testosterone may work, but I'm dubious.
Telomerase Activation: Cycloastragenol, but there has to be something better out there.
Tumor Necrosis Factor Inhibition: Rapamycin.
Protein Kinase Expression: Copious amounts of phosolipids.
Promotion of Neurotrophic Factors: Valproic Acid and Rasagiline.
Mood Enhancement: Valdoxan, Tianeptine, a tetracyclic antidepressant, and light therapy.
Stress: Valdoxan, Tianeptine, meditation, sensory deprivation, massage, acupuncture, and cranial electrotherapy,
Environmental Richness: Exercise, socializing, and light and sound devices.
Diet: Flavonoid dense that closely resembles a Mediterranean or East Asian diet.
Sleep: Valdoxan, or single malt scotch whiskey (seriously, give it a try).
Reactive Oxygen Species: Luteolin, and Rasagiline.
Glucose Metabolism: Pioglitazone, and Acitretin.
Energy: Modafinil, and low dose hydrocortisone.
Blood Pressure: Guanfacine, and fish oil.
Vague, and Undefined Infections: Minocycline, and/or Valtrex.
Chelation: Valtrex (unsubstantiated pet theory of mine).
Liver: Intramuscular choline.
Stomach Ailments: Ondansetron, or Tropisetron.
Anxiety: Amisulpride, Tianeptine, amphetamines, Cialis, Sceletium Tortuosum, and/ or alcohol.
Obsessiveness: Salvinorin A, Sigma agonist, and/or intramuscular oxytocin.

Now, I should note that I have no intention of using all of these substances at once, but I believe that these maybe effective solutions to problems that pervade the message board, and that I've arrived at through personal research. In my regimen thread, these issues will likely be revisited, with a disclaimer attached, and without discussing the method of procurement. While I have moved quite off topic, I thought it was worth elucidating my thoughts on a comprehensive approach for cognitive enhancement, since it's is evidently a concern of all the thread participants.


I find your attitude towards neuropharmacology fascinating, I've never seen anyone so dedicated towards enhancing their cognition in such a capacious way. I am rarely complimentary towards people, especially since because I have extremely extensive scientific knowledge in general, I am difficult to impress. But I have to admit I believe pharmacologically I have something to learn from you. Can I ask if you have any formal qualifications? Not that it's relevant to the accuracy of your knowledge.

Initially I was sceptical about your aims, since it seemed from the amount of substances you were taking that there was a motive based on insecurity, as is the case with many people who excessively self-medicate. But the research and reasoning behind each pharmaceutical/supplement is undeniable. You may be the epitome of what a contemporary meta-cognitive individual can possibly be, given the limitations on current modulation of human consciousness, as hyperbolic as that sounds. Personally I am interested in human cognitive and physical enhancement in a more enduring way, and am performing research to that end, but it is far less immediate of course.

I would like to know what your experience has been with Amisulpride, and also what your opinion is of a combination of Agomelatine/Valdoxan and Tianeptine. I am currently on Agomelatine and have taken tianeptine in the past with excellent results, thanks!

Edited by Animal, 20 September 2010 - 04:27 PM.


#37 medievil

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 05:21 PM

Animal perhaps your also interested in my own experience with amisulpiride.

It was the only pharmaceutical wich really adressed my anhedonia and motivational issues, it kept working for the 2 weeks i took it, however i stopped taking it due to the massive rise in prolactin it causes wich could cause trouble in the long run, i retried it a few times later but it never worked again.

#38 Animal

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 08:45 PM

Animal perhaps your also interested in my own experience with amisulpiride.

It was the only pharmaceutical wich really adressed my anhedonia and motivational issues, it kept working for the 2 weeks i took it, however i stopped taking it due to the massive rise in prolactin it causes wich could cause trouble in the long run, i retried it a few times later but it never worked again.


I've been on it for 6 months at 50mgs/day and had no issue with hyperprolactinema, i.e. I don't have bitch tits. It's positive effects on prolactin only really occur at doses that begin to antagonise post-synaptic D2 and D3 receptors, which is anything over 100mgs/day.

The reason I was asking is because I stopped taking it 5 days ago and the dysthymia came back with a vengeance earlier on today. I took a 50mg tablet of Amisulpride, and within 3 hours I was back to my old self. It really works miracles for me.

How long did you trial it for the second time?

#39 medievil

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 08:49 PM

I tried it for 2 weeks again several times, i seem to have gottan a permanent tolerance to it wich is a shame, as it really worked good for me. Its a very good med for anhedonia/motivational issues.

#40 KimberCT

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 10:33 PM

Animal perhaps your also interested in my own experience with amisulpiride.

It was the only pharmaceutical wich really adressed my anhedonia and motivational issues, it kept working for the 2 weeks i took it, however i stopped taking it due to the massive rise in prolactin it causes wich could cause trouble in the long run, i retried it a few times later but it never worked again.


I've been on it for 6 months at 50mgs/day and had no issue with hyperprolactinema, i.e. I don't have bitch tits. It's positive effects on prolactin only really occur at doses that begin to antagonise post-synaptic D2 and D3 receptors, which is anything over 100mgs/day.

The reason I was asking is because I stopped taking it 5 days ago and the dysthymia came back with a vengeance earlier on today. I took a 50mg tablet of Amisulpride, and within 3 hours I was back to my old self. It really works miracles for me.

How long did you trial it for the second time?


I always though prolactin was regulated by presynaptic dopamine receptors.  I figured it may be a augmenting agent for folks with anxiety, but this study (pdf) showing hyperprolactinemia with low-dose amisulpiride put me off trying it.

#41 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 10:42 PM

Animal perhaps your also interested in my own experience with amisulpiride.

It was the only pharmaceutical wich really adressed my anhedonia and motivational issues, it kept working for the 2 weeks i took it, however i stopped taking it due to the massive rise in prolactin it causes wich could cause trouble in the long run, i retried it a few times later but it never worked again.


I've been on it for 6 months at 50mgs/day and had no issue with hyperprolactinema, i.e. I don't have bitch tits. It's positive effects on prolactin only really occur at doses that begin to antagonise post-synaptic D2 and D3 receptors, which is anything over 100mgs/day.

The reason I was asking is because I stopped taking it 5 days ago and the dysthymia came back with a vengeance earlier on today. I took a 50mg tablet of Amisulpride, and within 3 hours I was back to my old self. It really works miracles for me.

How long did you trial it for the second time?


I always though prolactin was regulated by presynaptic dopamine receptors.  I figured it may be a augmenting agent for folks with anxiety, but this study (pdf) showing hyperprolactinemia with low-dose amisulpiride put me off trying it.


Aripiprazole is the only drug that can produce these d2 antagonist-like benefits without raising prolactin levels IMO.

#42 medievil

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 10:46 PM

But its a strong 5HT2A antagonist, bleh :sad:

#43 John Barleycorn

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 03:13 AM

Now that I think of it, the affinity for 5ht2a varies with species, which means that its therapeutic efficacy is probably owing more to its relationship with the kappa receptors.


I wasn't aware that it has ever been considered to be a conventional psychedelic.

#44 John Barleycorn

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 03:20 AM

Aripiprazole is the only drug that can produce these d2 antagonist-like benefits without raising prolactin levels IMO.


Another option is combine amisulpride and an agonist like pramipexole or ropinirole. From memory, there are hypotension issues there, so some folks have contemplated adding in bupropion or the like. I know, it all starts to sound like too much polypharmacy, but sometimes synergy actually happens (in theory at least).

My bigger reservation, as I have mentioned elsewhere, is with chronic administration of these anti-psychotics, even at low doses. I guess Animal's experience suggests that the rebound isn't too nasty, but I'd still like to be sure that I finished in better underlying shape than when I started.

#45 Logan

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 07:30 PM

Are you going to do straight up valproic acid or sodium valproate?

Why no lithium?


Lithium has unwanted effects on inositol metabolism, and reduces neurotrophic factors in certain parts of the brain---like the hippocampus. Further, it has yet to be agreed upon effects on the reelin glycoprotein---possible downregulation for one, which would be at odds with the impetus for use. Since I'm not using valproic acid for the treatment for manic depression, and since I'm starting at a base of 30 mg, its efficacy as a mood stabilizer at this dose is beside the point, since neuroprotection and reelin promotion is what I'm looking for. However, since I'm starting at a low base, and because the efficacy of low dose therapy remains uncertain, I'm a bit in the dark. and it will take some time to arrive at an effective dose.


How are you getting such a low dose of valroic acid? I'm just thinking this is hard to find since it is prescribed at much higher doses than 30 mg, and even doses like 250 mg are considered very low.

What do you think about using sodium valproate for the same purposes?

Edited by morganator, 21 September 2010 - 07:31 PM.


#46 Rational Madman

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 07:48 PM

Are you going to do straight up valproic acid or sodium valproate?

Why no lithium?


Lithium has unwanted effects on inositol metabolism, and reduces neurotrophic factors in certain parts of the brain---like the hippocampus. Further, it has yet to be agreed upon effects on the reelin glycoprotein---possible downregulation for one, which would be at odds with the impetus for use. Since I'm not using valproic acid for the treatment for manic depression, and since I'm starting at a base of 30 mg, its efficacy as a mood stabilizer at this dose is beside the point, since neuroprotection and reelin promotion is what I'm looking for. However, since I'm starting at a low base, and because the efficacy of low dose therapy remains uncertain, I'm a bit in the dark. and it will take some time to arrive at an effective dose.


How are you getting such a low dose of valroic acid? I'm just thinking this is hard to find since it is prescribed at much higher doses than 30 mg, and even doses like 250 mg are considered very low.

What do you think about using sodium valproate for the same purposes?

I'll be carefully dividing a 120 mg pill. As for sodium valproate, there isn't really a substantial difference, and since I already ordered valproic acid, I see no point in changing substances until a trial has been conducted.

#47 dilenja

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 08:05 PM

But its a strong 5HT2A antagonist, bleh :sad:


I've read a few conflicting reports on the 5HT2A receptor and can't quite make out whether antagonism or agonism would be preferred for enhancing the beneficial effects of dopamine - case in point below. I was previously under the impression that antagonism was better, but now am not quite so sure. Would it be possible that 5HT2A has different effects on dopamine in different regions of the brain? I can't help but notice that quite a few antidepressants (and also atypicals) have potent antagonistic activity at 5HT2A (Mirtrazapine, trazadone, nefazadone), while I haven't really head of any agonists being employed for this or for cognitive enhancing purposes. Any thoughts?

"Evidence has suggested that5-HT2A receptors located on both the ce11 bodies and terminal regions ofDA neurons mediate the inhibition of DA firing and release such thattheir activation is required for the inhibition while antagonism of 5-HT2A releasesDA fiom this inhibition (Ugedo et al. 1989; Muramatsu et al. 1988;Kapur and Remington 1996). Altematively, other lines of evidence haveimplicated an excitatory role for the involvement of the striatal 5-HT2A receptors inmediating stimulant-induced dopamine release (Schmidt et al. 1992; Schmidt etal. 1994) and hyperactivity (Moser et al. 1996; O'Neill et al. 1999). Forexample, selective 5-HT2A antagonists have been shown to attenuate thehyperlocomotor effects of amphetamine and cocaine apparently by inhibiting theincrease in dopamine release that causes hyperactivity (O'Neill et al. 1999).In other words, activation of the 5-HT2A receptor is necessary formediating the effectsofdopamine enhancing agents."



#48 medievil

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 08:15 PM

Copy of a post of me on another forum:
5HT2A also plays a role in prozac's dopamine increase:

In another study, injections of M100907 attenuated fluoxetine-induced
increases in cortical DA (Zhang et al., 2000). Thus, selective antagonism of 5-HT2A receptors
attenuates mesocortical DA release.

Comes from this paper:
http://pubget.com/se...smission.[1]=AND&asesp[2]=AND&asesp[3]=AND&institution=


Besides, some interesting facts about 5HT2A:

------------------

Atypical, but not typical, antipsychotic drugs robustly increase DA release in the PFC. A
common property of these drugs that distinguishes them from the typical agents is high affinity
for the 5-HT2A receptor. Thus, a plausible hypothesis was that 5-HT2A receptor antagonism
increases cortical DA efflux. Earlier studies demonstrated that administration of the nonselective
5-HT2 receptor antagonist ritanserin increased nigrostriatal and mesocorticolimbic
DA efflux (Devaud et al., 1992; Pehek, 1996; Pehek and Bi, 1997). However, subsequent work
has shown that ritanserin may facilitate DA cell activity by antagonizing D2 receptors (Shi et
al., 1995). Multiple subsequent studies have since been performed with the selective 5-HT2A
receptor antagonist M100907 and demonstrate that systemic or intracortical administration
Alex and Pehek Page 11
Pharmacol Ther. Author manuscript; available in PMC 2008 October 7.
NIH-PA Author Manuscript NIH-PA Author Manuscript NIH-PA Author Manuscript
blocks DA release evoked by treatment with the 5-HT2 receptor agonist DOI (Gobert and
Millan, 1999; Pehek et al., 2001).

------------------------

In contrast to studies employing the administration of 5-HT2A receptor antagonists alone, the
combined, systemic administration of D2 and 5-HT2A receptor antagonists results in a
potentiation of cortical DA release (Westerink et al., 2001; Liegeois et al., 2002). Evidence
has been provided that this effect may be mediated by actions of released 5-HT interacting
with 5-HT1A receptors (Bonaccorso et al., 2002). In addition, this potentiation may result from
actions of drugs on DA cells in the VTA. It is clear that, as a class, atypical antipsychotic drugs
enhance DA release in the PFC. It is also clear that this effect is not mimicked by selective
antagonism of 5-HT2A receptors. Rather, it may result from a combination of receptor binding
properties including blockade of 5-HT2C receptors (see below).

------------------------------

We have
demonstrated that intracortical infusions of the 5-HT2A receptor antagonists M100907 or MDL
11,939 blocked the increases in cortical DA produced by the systemic administration of the 5-
HT2 receptor agonist DOI (Pehek et al., 2001; Pehek et al., 2006).

------------------------------

Recent behavioral studies demonstrate that selective 5-HT2A receptor blockade attenuates
DA-mediated behaviors. Administration of the 5-HT2A antagonist SR 46349B (1.0 mg/kg or
less) attenuates hyperactivity induced by either the acute or repeated administration of cocaine
(Filip et al., 2004). Treatment with M100907 reversed behavioral deficits in locomotor activity
and prepulse inhibition of acoustic startle in DAT knockout mice (Barr et al., 2004). In addition
to behavioral abnormalities, these mice display elevated synaptic levels of DA (Gainetdinov
et al., 1999). The authors suggest that 5-HT2A antagonists may be useful in the treatment of
conditions characterized by chronic, elevated dopaminergic tone.

------------------------------

Summary
Activation of 5-HT2A receptors stimulates dopaminergic activity in all three pathways
although most work has been performed in the mesocortical system. Investigations into the
circuitry of this regulation indicate that 5-HT2A receptors on corticotegmental projections
regulate DA cellular activity. A functional role for 5-HT2A receptors localized on VTA DA
neurons remains to be determined.

5HT2A antagonism on its own doesnt increase cortical dopamine at all, instead it appears that agonism actually increases dopamine in several brain area's. Ive never really jumped on the anti 5HT2A bandwagon, but many ppl still think that 5HT2A antagonism is a good thing, i have to disagree with that.

5HT2A facilates dopamine release and 5HT2A antagonism does NOT raise dopamine.
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#49 maxwatt

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 08:15 PM

:|o :blink: :excl:

#50 dilenja

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 08:25 PM

Well dam, that's like finding out the world isn't flat after all these months, haha. Thanks a lot for clearing that up Medievil Posted Image





#51 medievil

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 08:28 PM

Well dam, that's like finding out the world isn't flat after all these months, haha. Thanks a lot for clearing that up Medievil Posted Image

Still 5HT2A antagonism can be a good thing in some types of depression, but for those suffering from anhedonia or lack of energy its definatly a no go, i beleive that 5HT2A agonism is a highly interesting target hence my intrest in lisuride.

#52 Animal

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 08:47 PM

Well dam, that's like finding out the world isn't flat after all these months, haha. Thanks a lot for clearing that up Medievil Posted Image

Still 5HT2A antagonism can be a good thing in some types of depression, but for those suffering from anhedonia or lack of energy its definatly a no go, i beleive that 5HT2A agonism is a highly interesting target hence my intrest in lisuride.


The 5-HT2A receptor is extremely complex, you can't simply state that an agonist will increase dopamine, because that is highly dependent on what other 5-HT receptor subtypes are being stimulated in tandem. The 5-HT2A and 5-HT1A receptors have hugely different effects depending upon whether they are stimulated separately or together.

The modulation of 5-HT2A downstream effects is still not fully understood, as it mediates a majority of the hallucinogenic effects that psychedelic drugs have, but does not cause hallucinations when stimulated alone. Personally though, I think it's better to stimulate rather then inhibit it's activity, as overall it's effects seem to be primarily positive, including the facilitation of abstract thought. The only scenario where it should be antagonised is in psychosis.
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#53 Rational Madman

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 08:54 PM

Well dam, that's like finding out the world isn't flat after all these months, haha. Thanks a lot for clearing that up Medievil Posted Image

Still 5HT2A antagonism can be a good thing in some types of depression, but for those suffering from anhedonia or lack of energy its definatly a no go, i beleive that 5HT2A agonism is a highly interesting target hence my intrest in lisuride.


You'll have to excuse my oscillatory mind, but I'm beginning to have doubts about the merits of 5ht2a antagonism as well, and the mechanism of the tetracyclics, which also have an affinity for adrenergic receptors. A blockade of either is linked to an impairment of working memory. So, I'm re-examining the SSRIs, which have the advantage of inducing oxytocin synthesis, and positively influencing opioid pathways and the circadian rhythym. After consulting the literature, I may toy around with doses---starting at a low base---and make some other calibrations. Presently, I think the Sigma 1 agonists are probably still the best within this class. But, if forced to choose, would you choose Lexapro, or Luvox? Monotherapeutic SSRI use is a daft idea, but combined with other agents, much more efficacious. However, I'll have to reconsider my use of Tianeptine, since they aren't exactly synergistic. So, now I have greater motivation to try Valdoxan, but has anyone found a good price? The best I've found is $90 for 28 pills, which is a cost that may exceed the benefits. I'll try alibaba.com tonight, and see if I can find anything interesting.

Edited by Rol82, 21 September 2010 - 08:55 PM.

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#54 medievil

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 09:12 PM

Well dam, that's like finding out the world isn't flat after all these months, haha. Thanks a lot for clearing that up Medievil Posted Image

Still 5HT2A antagonism can be a good thing in some types of depression, but for those suffering from anhedonia or lack of energy its definatly a no go, i beleive that 5HT2A agonism is a highly interesting target hence my intrest in lisuride.


The 5-HT2A receptor is extremely complex, you can't simply state that an agonist will increase dopamine, because that is highly dependent on what other 5-HT receptor subtypes are being stimulated in tandem. The 5-HT2A and 5-HT1A receptors have hugely different effects depending upon whether they are stimulated separately or together.

The modulation of 5-HT2A downstream effects is still not fully understood, as it mediates a majority of the hallucinogenic effects that psychedelic drugs have, but does not cause hallucinations when stimulated alone. Personally though, I think it's better to stimulate rather then inhibit it's activity, as overall it's effects seem to be primarily positive, including the facilitation of abstract thought. The only scenario where it should be antagonised is in psychosis.

Yes that is entirely true, but either way there's no evidence that 5HT2A antagonism increases dopamine at all.

5HT2A agonism only causes psychedelic experiences when the ligand also stimulates the intracellular 2nd messenger pathways (something witch lisuride lacks for example, despite having a very simular pharmacological profile to LSD). But my knowledge on this is pretty limited.

Agreed that 5HT2A agonism is a positive thing.

#55 medievil

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 09:14 PM

Perhaps we should start a new thread on this, as were going offtopic here and quite a few members here have intrest in the dynamics behind several serotonin receptors. I have a paper overviewing the effects of all serotonine receptors on dopamine.

#56 Rational Madman

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 09:21 PM

Animal perhaps your also interested in my own experience with amisulpiride.

It was the only pharmaceutical wich really adressed my anhedonia and motivational issues, it kept working for the 2 weeks i took it, however i stopped taking it due to the massive rise in prolactin it causes wich could cause trouble in the long run, i retried it a few times later but it never worked again.


I've been on it for 6 months at 50mgs/day and had no issue with hyperprolactinema, i.e. I don't have bitch tits. It's positive effects on prolactin only really occur at doses that begin to antagonise post-synaptic D2 and D3 receptors, which is anything over 100mgs/day.

The reason I was asking is because I stopped taking it 5 days ago and the dysthymia came back with a vengeance earlier on today. I took a 50mg tablet of Amisulpride, and within 3 hours I was back to my old self. It really works miracles for me.

How long did you trial it for the second time?


I always though prolactin was regulated by presynaptic dopamine receptors. I figured it may be a augmenting agent for folks with anxiety, but this study (pdf) showing hyperprolactinemia with low-dose amisulpiride put me off trying it.


Sure, go for it.

#57 medievil

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 09:23 PM

Well dam, that's like finding out the world isn't flat after all these months, haha. Thanks a lot for clearing that up Medievil Posted Image

Still 5HT2A antagonism can be a good thing in some types of depression, but for those suffering from anhedonia or lack of energy its definatly a no go, i beleive that 5HT2A agonism is a highly interesting target hence my intrest in lisuride.


You'll have to excuse my oscillatory mind, but I'm beginning to have doubts about the merits of 5ht2a antagonism as well, and the mechanism of the tetracyclics, which also have an affinity for adrenergic receptors. A blockade of either is linked to an impairment of working memory. So, I'm re-examining the SSRIs, which have the advantage of inducing oxytocin synthesis, and positively influencing opioid pathways and the circadian rhythym. After consulting the literature, I may toy around with doses---starting at a low base---and make some other calibrations. Presently, I think the Sigma 1 agonists are probably still the best within this class. But, if forced to choose, would you choose Lexapro, or Luvox? Monotherapeutic SSRI use is a daft idea, but combined with other agents, much more efficacious. However, I'll have to reconsider my use of Tianeptine, since they aren't exactly synergistic. So, now I have greater motivation to try Valdoxan, but has anyone found a good price? The best I've found is $90 for 28 pills, which is a cost that may exceed the benefits. I'll try alibaba.com tonight, and see if I can find anything interesting.

WHat are you taking SSRI's for? Depression? Or just for oxytocin?

Edited by medievil, 21 September 2010 - 09:28 PM.


#58 Rational Madman

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 09:29 PM

Well dam, that's like finding out the world isn't flat after all these months, haha. Thanks a lot for clearing that up Medievil Posted Image

Still 5HT2A antagonism can be a good thing in some types of depression, but for those suffering from anhedonia or lack of energy its definatly a no go, i beleive that 5HT2A agonism is a highly interesting target hence my intrest in lisuride.


You'll have to excuse my oscillatory mind, but I'm beginning to have doubts about the merits of 5ht2a antagonism as well, and the mechanism of the tetracyclics, which also have an affinity for adrenergic receptors. A blockade of either is linked to an impairment of working memory. So, I'm re-examining the SSRIs, which have the advantage of inducing oxytocin synthesis, and positively influencing opioid pathways and the circadian rhythym. After consulting the literature, I may toy around with doses---starting at a low base---and make some other calibrations. Presently, I think the Sigma 1 agonists are probably still the best within this class. But, if forced to choose, would you choose Lexapro, or Luvox? Monotherapeutic SSRI use is a daft idea, but combined with other agents, much more efficacious. However, I'll have to reconsider my use of Tianeptine, since they aren't exactly synergistic. So, now I have greater motivation to try Valdoxan, but has anyone found a good price? The best I've found is $90 for 28 pills, which is a cost that may exceed the benefits. I'll try alibaba.com tonight, and see if I can find anything interesting.

WHat are you taking SSRI's for? Depression?


Well, yes, that's the prescribed purpose, but I'm also interested in the aforementioned benefits. Pending further research, I may reintroduce an SSRI, but probably not at the previous dosage of 150 mg.

#59 Rational Madman

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 09:33 PM

Given its relationship with 5ht2a, I think Inositol might be worth reexamining.

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#60 medievil

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 09:37 PM

Are you planning to keep on taking mirtazepine?

What do you think of lisuride its a potent 5HT1A and 5HT1B agonist wich stimulate oxytocin release, its also a potent 5HT2A agonist, basicly has a very interesting pharmacological profile. Its also a D2 agonist wich could replace cabergoline, or do the benefits of cabergoline come independly from another mechanism?
http://www.imminst.o...st-in-lisuride/

Its also been shown to potentiate the antidepressant effect of other antidepressants in rodents.

I would say low dose SSRI+lisuride would be very interesting, downside of it is the price and the half life tough.




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