186 replies to this topic

[Mike M]

The smaller guys will get the attention eventually. I'm just the big fish importing wise. From there, they will work downward, trust me

[zm3thod]

If this is true, what is the likelihood of it applying to all the other -racetams at the same time? Or very soon?

[Warrior]

Where is this letter?

[synapse]

I was hoping that Mike was going to scan a copy of the letter today and post it for us.

I checked the FDA warning letter website and don't see anything. See http://www.fda.gov/I...ers/default.htm

I also did a search on piracetam and still didn't find anything. The FDA is pretty good about posting their letters online.

[Cephalon]

It's like here in Germany, where Piracetam is precription only.
I suppose the US pharma business got more interest in it and wants to get rid of the supplement market.
All the best for you Mike, I will order some Piracetam soon as well.

[Viscid]

Scanning a letter ain't difficult, Mike. I wanna know if I was fooled into buying lots or not. (Even though it was still decent value)

[MoodyBlue]

What is surprising is that if the FDA is banning Piracetam, then why wouldn't they just go ahead and ban the rest of the racetams at the same time? Oxi, Ani, Prami, and Nefi (especially Nefi) would seemingly bite the dust at the same time. If this is true, then I'd conclude that Big Pharma and Doctors are pushing the FDA to do this because they think that they are losing business in the area of pschotropics and other nasty drugs with horrible side effects which they want to make lots and lots of dough on. The fewer people who are coming in to be treated as patients for that class of drugs because they are treating their selves with Nootropics, the less money they make. Then there are those of us who's brains would be considered quite normal by any psychiatrist's standards of evaluation, but nonetheless are eager to perform mentally even better than we would without Nootropics.

Then too, maybe the government is worried about the population becoming too intelligent and therefore less subject to their control. Reminds me of what Alan Watts wrote in a chapter called "The New Alchemy" in one of his books. He said the reason that the Federal Government made LSD illegal in 1965 is because they were afraid a half civilized youth might get a hold of the substance and as a result reveal all of the mysteries.

By the way Mike, since your Piracetam Lab Test shows April 9, 2009 as the date it was received, does that mean the expiration date would be around April 9, 2012?

Edited by MoodyBlue, 01 September 2010 - 12:37 AM.

[synapse]

Alan Watts rocks!

[Mike M]

I'm out of town. A trip I couldn't get out of. I'm traveling with my father, who is 67. He can't travel alone on this trip and I was set to travel with him. I've been in a car with him all day. The letter was ran over to my house from my house late this afternoon. It is being scanned in the morning, emailed to me, then put up on the site. For those that quote the FDA website, the most recent letter they post is from the 19th, I was served on the 30th, so of course it isn't posted.

Everything will be up by tomorrow night.

[Grapevine]

I'm out of town. A trip I couldn't get out of. I'm traveling with my father, who is 67. He can't travel alone on this trip and I was set to travel with him. I've been in a car with him all day. The letter was ran over to my house from my house late this afternoon. It is being scanned in the morning, emailed to me, then put up on the site. For those that quote the FDA website, the most recent letter they post is from the 19th, I was served on the 30th, so of course it isn't posted.

Everything will be up by tomorrow night.

What are you smoking? It says that it was last updated today, and the most recent letter is from the 25th. I'm calling bull.

It is entirely possible that you did receive a letter from the FDA, but if that is the case, you have severely misunderstood why they are asking you to stop selling. I will be calling them tomorrow to confirm whether or not it is banned. My guess here is that you're either trying to boost sales (what better way to bring in customers than to tell them the product will no longer be available and knock the price down a little, but not enough to hurt you? seriously? you couldn't spring for 25%?), or the FDA is telling you to stop because piracetam is not considered a dietary supplement, and the manner in which you are selling it allows them to classify it as a drug. Note that this does not mean it is banned-- if you are marketing an unregulated substance (which piracetam is) as a drug, they will come after you.

I look forward to seeing your letter posted, and I will update after I have gotten more information from the FDA, rather than taking the word of a vendor trying to promote his sale.

Edited by Grapevine, 01 September 2010 - 04:41 AM.

[synapse]

What I find a little strange in this whole scenario is that if Mike did receive a letter from the FDA (and acknowledges that he received such a letter) that he should stop selling piracetam, then why is he going around the Internet posting messages about how much piracetam he still has for sale (now at a special closeout price) even after the FDA injunction to stop? Seems that the digital paper trail could be incriminating.

Edited by synapse, 01 September 2010 - 07:18 AM.

[Grapevine]

What I find a little strange in this whole scenario is that if Mike did receive a letter from the FDA stating that he should stop selling piracetam, then why is he going around the Internet posting messages about how much piracetam he has for sale after the FDA injunction to stop. Seems that the digital paper trail could be incriminating.

Yeah, as far as I've seen, he is the ONLY source I can find for all this hysteria about piracetam being banned. If the FDA's coming down so hard, you'd think he'd want to lie low and stick with the email he sent out earlier, or that you'd see other vendors talking about it since apparently Mike "made some calls and it looks as if others are getting similar letters" (from his post on Something Awful). It's driving me crazy that everyone's falling all over themselves freaking out (on a variety of forums), but no one is stepping back and thinking about this, nor can any of them provide me with any information that didn't come from him. Where ever I've posted, I've just been dismissed for not knowing what I'm talking about. For a bunch of people that take piracetam pretty consistently, it certainly doesn't seem to be working very well for them. And you know what? Maybe I'm completely wrong. But I'll believe it when someone links me to something that's not a post by our Mr. Mike.

[ian1983]

I must say I've dealt with Mike before and based on my experience he is a good egg and I have no reason to doubt the man.

Circumstances as they may, I'm still inclined to believe him.

Re the 'why is he selling at a discount when the order to stop has been given'.
He does say that he has been given 15 days as of the 30th August to get in contact with the FDA and cease trading piracetam.
Do you think anyone in their right mind isn't going to sell what they can as whatever discount to try and recoup some of their losses in that window?

[chrono]

I'm always slightly amazed at how quick people on this site are to assume that financial interest automatically makes someone a scammer. The guy's out of town, give him a freaking minute to put the letter up :p I'm sure Mike knows how places like this work, and that any kind of slight boost in sales this would generate would be more than offset by the hit to his reputation, if this turns out to be a hoax.

While this obviously sucks, I'm trying to look on the bright side. We discuss many nootropics here which aren't available in giant tubs for 4c/g. If you want it badly enough, it will always be obtainable.

I hope either Mike or Cerebral Health will fight this; it would be a great victory for all of us. I'm not familiar enough with how serious the FDA is about drawing the line on different supplements to guess how realistic that is.

And if anyone really needs convincing that you can trust the FDA about as far as you can throw them, start with this short piece in the latest issue of TIME: After Avandia: Does the FDA Have a Drug Problem?

[FortFun]

Six ways from Sunday this stinks of shady business practices from smartpowders / Mike M .

But I am even more disappointed in the ImmInst moderators for letting this and other disreputable practices continue. (yes FunkOdessey, Chrono I am speaking to you)

Calling out individual members for being suspect of very questionable vendor claims that have not been substantiated by one shred of verifiable evidence? Claims that have been marketed to nearly ever nutrition/supplement/body building forum known to man?

Shame on you. It should have been your job to be suspect of these type of things and caution prudence before stocking up on 10 years of piracetam!

I appreciate your retraction, well somewhat of a retraction... "I'm still confident he's telling the truth but maybe this is not as widepsread as I thought. "

What gives you confidence? That he has advertised his products and current 'promotions' here for a long period of time? That his prices are cheap?

That very suspect member profiles like '425Runner' and others use nearly every post to promote smartpowders, primaforce, or other affiliated vendor's product on here and many other forums???

Take a look! I see one very 'touching' post started by '425Runner' looking to overcome severe stage fright. Then two pages of concerned forum members trying to give ideas and solutions, asking for more information. Not one thank you, or followup by 425Runner to the thread he/she started! Yet 425Runner loves promoting Mike's companies every chance possible. Do a google search. Its not just here and not just nootropics.

Maybe this FDA ban its not 'as' widespread as you thought??? What does that mean exactly? Its a little widespread? Seriously, what shred of proof is there that distinguishes this 'ban rumor' from any other over the last five years? A vendor gets called out for labeling issues...supposedly?

See that's the problem. The continuous presence of vendors like smartpowders on this forum allows them to game the system. Most people roll in and out of here like the wind so they are in a disadvantage when faced with a vendor whose only goal is to promote products/prices and a generate a high ratio of good comments in order to bury any bad ones. Mike M is not a nutrionist, a chemist, a biologist, or even much of a body builder I assume. He is a professional internet marketeer and a very good one at that. He admits his primary job is to troll the forums. He has done this for a long, long time and he knows how forums work. He is well documented by myself and others...

http://www.imminst.o...wders-opinions/

So just pretend for a second! You have no moral code but making money. Your job is to sell snakeoil on snakeoil forums. You are in it for the longer term, its a career and you are smarter than the average bear.. You can't exactly sell arsenic laced snakeoil (can't have customers dropping like Melamine fed dogs) but what's a little rat scat, who's going to notice? Now go be devious in your pursuits! How friggin easy would it be to sell your product here or on any other similar forum??? Low prices would help, but with persistence, big talk, unsubstantiated bluster, a rolling set of methodically managed ghost/fake accounts and multiple company names/LLC's you could sell some serious snakeoil on a whole bunch of snakeoil forums!

I would never suggest that Mike M is using a similar business model, or that he has followed this model repeatedly in his career in the internet 'forum marketing' business. Instead I'd expect every member should expect the worst of vendors in an unregulated industry and question/verify everything. Especially if you are putting their products in your body. I guess what I would not expect is that moderators (especially here), would be asking members to set aside their thinking caps and assume that vendors claims no longer need to be substantiated.

Now I know I am picking on FunkOdessey. I am more than certain that he is a very nice guy and would never do a thing to hurt a flea. But I raise the issue to ask all moderators how long can this forum persist while allowing vendors to openly game the system? Why are vendors like Mike M continually allowed to break forum rules with no repercussions? Why are vendors even allowed to participate if all they they have to say is another announcement of their latest sale prices? If they can't talk about how to use their own product or about their products intended/expected effects then why are they here??? Vendors are not needed here to defend COAs, heavy metal analysis, etc. Imminst should have standards, trusted labs, etc. The vendor either complies or it does not. Its an A,B, or C level vendor according to set standards. End of story. Member credibility will speak for itself with respect to posting.

-fortfun

PS... And what a load of bull that Mike M doesn't stand to gain from this rumor. He claims 90% of the market right? After all his self generated publicity how many new people are now wondering what is so cool about Piracetam that its 'ban' is causing an uproar? What's going to stick...a rumor of a ban or some later quiet mea culpa that he over reacted to a GMP audit? His reputation taking a hit for a false rumor? Seriously? Give me a break. 6 months from now someone like me might bring it up again. He'd then accuse me of having some grudge. And then 10 noobs or ghost accounts would post comments praising how quickly he ships and how they were so impressed that he e-mailed them personally. I know the COA is 1.5 years old but who cares, Mike M can be trusted. He posts here all the time. Rinse/Repeat...

Heck even if he is right, maybe the guy controlling 90% of the market should be the one who is blamed for not doing a more methodical job of insuring product safety/integrity and for making sure his distributors don't make false claims? Maybe it will be better finding a piracetam bottle next to the aspirin at walgreens...I know I would be more comfortable using it.

I do know one thing...The FDA probably won't take too kindly to any two bit supplement vendor that misrepresented FDA actions in order to drive sales....

[Mike M]

I'm out of town. A trip I couldn't get out of. I'm traveling with my father, who is 67. He can't travel alone on this trip and I was set to travel with him. I've been in a car with him all day. The letter was ran over to my house from my house late this afternoon. It is being scanned in the morning, emailed to me, then put up on the site. For those that quote the FDA website, the most recent letter they post is from the 19th, I was served on the 30th, so of course it isn't posted.

Everything will be up by tomorrow night.

What are you smoking? It says that it was last updated today, and the most recent letter is from the 25th. I'm calling bull.

It is entirely possible that you did receive a letter from the FDA, but if that is the case, you have severely misunderstood why they are asking you to stop selling. I will be calling them tomorrow to confirm whether or not it is banned. My guess here is that you're either trying to boost sales (what better way to bring in customers than to tell them the product will no longer be available and knock the price down a little, but not enough to hurt you? seriously? you couldn't spring for 25%?), or the FDA is telling you to stop because piracetam is not considered a dietary supplement, and the manner in which you are selling it allows them to classify it as a drug. Note that this does not mean it is banned-- if you are marketing an unregulated substance (which piracetam is) as a drug, they will come after you.

I look forward to seeing your letter posted, and I will update after I have gotten more information from the FDA, rather than taking the word of a vendor trying to promote his sale.

Two days ago they only had letters updated till the 19th, now it's the 25th. Called David Price yourself, he's in the atlanta branch. He's the controller listed on almost all of those letters listed on the FDA site. I should have that letter posted within about 2h. Then you can see who's telling the truth and who's lying.

[Mike M]

What I find a little strange in this whole scenario is that if Mike did receive a letter from the FDA stating that he should stop selling piracetam, then why is he going around the Internet posting messages about how much piracetam he has for sale after the FDA injunction to stop. Seems that the digital paper trail could be incriminating.

Yeah, as far as I've seen, he is the ONLY source I can find for all this hysteria about piracetam being banned. If the FDA's coming down so hard, you'd think he'd want to lie low and stick with the email he sent out earlier, or that you'd see other vendors talking about it since apparently Mike "made some calls and it looks as if others are getting similar letters" (from his post on Something Awful). It's driving me crazy that everyone's falling all over themselves freaking out (on a variety of forums), but no one is stepping back and thinking about this, nor can any of them provide me with any information that didn't come from him. Where ever I've posted, I've just been dismissed for not knowing what I'm talking about. For a bunch of people that take piracetam pretty consistently, it certainly doesn't seem to be working very well for them. And you know what? Maybe I'm completely wrong. But I'll believe it when someone links me to something that's not a post by our Mr. Mike.

You've got me. I've decided to risk my reputation of 10 years on a product that I'm selling for 15.00. I was already selling it cheaper than most, now I take 20% off of it and create a huge lie just to sell something so I can make 3.00. If it weren't being banned and taken away, why on EARTH would I risk something like this? Do you really think I'd do something like that? SmartPowders is the smallest company I own, I would never risk its future over trying to make 5-10k selling some product via a lie. The internet doesn't go away. It would be told to people for years. I'm selling more than enough of this stuff, I bought all of the USA supply 2 weeks ago. The only way someone within the US is going to purchase it now is through china. Which getting it through customs is next to impossible. I've had multiple racetam shipments blocked going back to december of last year. If I knew I had all of the US supply, that more supply wasn't going to get through the US, WHY ON EARTH would I sell it at a discount? If anything, I could sell it at a premium. Just use some business logic here. There is no logic in lying about any of this. Much less lying about it across multiple boards, especially the bodybuilding boards whom I sell 10x the amount of product too vs nootropic buyers.

[chrono]

But I am even more disappointed in the ImmInst moderators for letting this and other disreputable practices continue. (yes FunkOdessey, Chrono I am speaking to you)

By your logic, I probably should have suspected you of being a troll, or a shill from another company, and not approved this post.

I'm sorry the fact that this is an open forum antagonizes you so. While we're considering all the paranoid possibilities you raised, why don't you think about the possibility that this is really happening, and as such is a hugely important topic of discussion in this community?

But as this is more of a supplier/market-related topic, I've moved it to the Retailer forum.

[Mike M]

This is the first two pages that concern piracetam. The other pages were concerning items I don't even sell on the site, so weren't relevant. You'll see this same letter posted whenever the FDA updates their site. Including the last page that says I have 15 days to act before they take action.

[FortFun]

But I am even more disappointed in the ImmInst moderators for letting this and other disreputable practices continue. (yes FunkOdessey, Chrono I am speaking to you)

By your logic, I probably should have suspected you of being a troll, or a shill from another company, and not approved this post.

I'm sorry the fact that this is an open forum antagonizes you so. While we're considering all the paranoid possibilities you raised, why don't you think about the possibility that this is really happening, and as such is a hugely important topic of discussion in this community?

But as this is more of a supplier/market-related topic, I've moved it to the Retailer forum.

An open forum? Last I checked vendors where banned from advertising. Right? or did you miss that in Moderator school? Mike M has announced his 20% off sale twice in this thread alone. Do I really have to pull up links for his recent posts in other threads announcing product availability and pricing too?

This topic has been 'really happening' for 5 years now if do a quick search. Sorry, some of us may require a bit of physical evidence before we freak out once again.

If you read my post you would have seen I did consider the possibility that this is real. And like I stated! If it is real then whose fault might that be? Kinda think the business practices of the distributor controlling 90% of the market might possibly have something to do with calling the attention of the FDA? Oh, no that's right. It was the videos on youtube of those scketchy piracetam users that were getting high and slobbering all over themselves. Or no, the multi billion dollar pharma industry was quaking in their boots because of Mike M. yeah, okay. lol

Very unimpressed Chrono with the thickness of your skin and your tone as a moderator. My criticisn for the moderators was because you were not doing your job enforcing blatant violations of the forum rules and topping that off with the criticism of members for not participating in your naive assumptions that vendors don't engage in deceptive viral marketing practices. Thought I read somewhere that you all where good at catching them, not that you were oblivious to the 'paranoid possibility' of a vendor ever doing such a thing.

[Mike M]

Hey fort who do you work for? Cause all of your posts attack me and I've never had any interaction with you.

[FortFun]

Hey fort who do you work for? Cause all of your posts attack me and I've never had any interaction with you.

lol. Any critical analysis must come from someone who works for a competitor and therefore everyone on the forum should disregard anything critical of your operations. Rinse/Repeat...yawn

But back to the topic...

I'm not sure the only interpretation of the warning letter is that the FDA is banning piracetam. In fact that may be a stretch. Guess we will find out if smartpowders really does control 90-100% of the market if he can't appropriately relable his products. But looking at the number of products sited I wonder if the target is smartpowders or piracetam? Why include all the others if the real goal is to force piracetam off the market?

Any ideas anyone?

[synapse]

It will be interesting to see the letter in its entirety to get a little better picture, but I am not surprised the FDA is taking a blanket approach to several products simultaneously. I don't get the immediate sense that this is a strong ban on piracetam quite yet (perhaps a soft prelude of things to come), but it is something definitely worth taking note of. I do still think there is a strong case to be made for the basis of piracetam in an amino acid that might help it qualify as a dietary supplement under FDA regulations. The grandfather issue is also worth investigating further.

[FunkOdyssey]

Thought I read somewhere that you all where good at catching them, not that you were oblivious to the 'paranoid possibility' of a vendor ever doing such a thing.

We are very good at catching them. As for me personally, I've been doing this for five years and I am a viral marketer's worst nightmare.

If I dismiss someone's concerns as paranoid, will I be right 100% of the time? No. Will I be right much more often than the average person here? Yes.

I hope my attitude impresses you because your opinion is highly important to me.

[Mike M]

Hey fort who do you work for? Cause all of your posts attack me and I've never had any interaction with you.

lol. Any critical analysis must come from someone who works for a competitor and therefore everyone on the forum should disregard anything critical of your operations. Rinse/Repeat...yawn

But back to the topic...

I'm not sure the only interpretation of the warning letter is that the FDA is banning piracetam. In fact that may be a stretch. Guess we will find out if smartpowders really does control 90-100% of the market if he can't appropriately relable his products. But looking at the number of products sited I wonder if the target is smartpowders or piracetam? Why include all the others if the real goal is to force piracetam off the market?

Any ideas anyone?

I thought you checked all my posts? If you did you'd know how all this went down. Supplier visit in December, visit to me in feb and now this. When the full letter is up on the site you will see the other stuff listed. We use a data feed from a big supplier for our third party items. That feed wasn't updated so items were listed that were out of production. That's all that letter pertained to. It's all bodybuilding stuff that posts were made about months ago.

If you read the letter it says piracetam is a drug, end of story.

[synapse]

The moderators are doing a pretty damn good job here at ImmInst and I am personally glad that there is some room for supplier involvement including Mike and myself. Reasonable doubt and critical thought is not something we should shy away from. There is however a fine line between paranoia and critical thinking. Most of the ImmInst members and moderation crew seem to have a good feel for this.

[kurt]

The more important issue is: where to get high quality piracetam now? Suggestions appreciated.

[Grapevine]

Yeah Mike, your letter? You are completely misunderstanding it. I read over it and it's exactly what I've been saying that no one's listening to. They're not banning it completely (I'm not claiming this may not be in the works, I'm just saying that's the case right now), they're asking YOU, and as far as I can tell, ONLY YOU to stop selling it because of the way you're presenting it. I don't understand what it is about this that's so hard for people to understand. They are saying that piracetam can't be considered a dietary supplement because it doesn't meet X list of criteria, and that based on the information you've provided on your website, it should be classified as a drug. Because piracetam is an unregulated substance, and not AN FDA APPROVED DRUG, you cannot sell it on your website as a drug, as you have been doing. Maybe they'll come after some other people who are marketing it similarly, but ultimately this is an issue with your labeling.

If you somehow need me to explain this more clearly, I will try to.

Edited by Grapevine, 01 September 2010 - 04:33 PM.

[Mike M]

Right grape, you know more than what the head of the FDA in Atlanta is telling me. Think what you wish. You are focusing on the structure/function claim and not the bigger issue at hand. Avoiding the obvious statement by them that it is a drug in their eyes. This is just the start of their larger probe into piracetam. If that weren't true, why wasn't something said by Them about the other race tams? They went through my entire site looking at stuff but said nothing of oxi/ani? Because nobody is making it a script. I dotn care what you say, i'll take the word of David price of the FDA over a random internet poster who tells me all is well.

Edited by Mike M, 01 September 2010 - 05:21 PM.

[Cephalon]

Hi Mike,

I must agree to Grapevine, the FDA is not concerned about you selling Piracetam as it is, but about your way of marketing it.

In this point they are right, as Piracetam is no supplement by definition and can not be sold as such.

It should be fine, if you contact them and agree not to sell it as a dietry supplement.

You might sell it as plant food like many UK & US rc designer drug vendors do to avoid further trouble.

To my understanding (ongoing lawyer in Germany) the letter does not intend a ban on Piracetam as such.

But I guess it won't be easier to sell Piracetam in the future.

Can you sell it without description?

Be prepared to get similar issues with the other racetams and phenibut (due to definition)

All the best!



Other sources:

You won't find Piracetam as cheap as you find at smartpowders, cerebral health, cognitive nutrion and all other great vendors.
For EU customers buying brand Piracetam in Czech (online) is an option, but with 20$/100g + Shipping rather expensive

Edited by Cephalon, 01 September 2010 - 05:30 PM.