55 replies to this topic

[medicineman]

I have mixed feelings about this. If the person holding this ceremony was someone other then that sociopath, I might be disinterested in this whole thing, but knowing the man, and his stance on various topics, such as same sex marriage, I am disturbed. Is he the voice of America? Is that what the voice of America has descended to????

[forever freedom]

he's just some crazy fellow. His church has 50 members.. Although i suspect his following may grow after this incident.

[chris w]

I guess it's kinda silly that people ranging from David Petraeus to Hillary Clinton to Angelina Jolie felt that they have to take a stance on it and condemn this dude, giving him more publicity than he deserves.

This case looks pretty much like idiots against idiots : on one side you have pastor Jones raiding on the recent anti - muslim wave in US and on the other guys like this -

"It is the duty of Muslims to react," said Mohammad Mukhtar, a cleric and candidate for the Afghan parliament in the Sept. 18 election. "When their holy book Quran gets burned in public, then there is nothing left. If this happens, I think the first and most important reaction will be that wherever Americans are seen, they will be killed. No matter where they will be in the world they will be killed."

Still, I think an act of destroying a religious book you don't agree with ( though I have doubts if Jones has actually read the one he wants to burn ) is IMO an acceptable act of protest, and no officials should stick their noses into this, no matter the political circumstances.

Here in Poland it's crazy that in XXI century there are still paragraphs protecting not just the Bible in material form but also one's "religious feelings", only two people are required to file a case stating that their feelings were offended by some act or for ex. artistic performance for the police to have to start an investigation. Sometime ago a lead singer of a black metal band tore the Bible during a concert ( so only fans who knew what to expect actually saw this happen ) and he was to stand trial, because a couple of right wing petty politicians heard about this and felt offended by an action they didn't even see.
But now the singer has leukemia so looks like Jehova has made even.

Edited by chris w, 09 September 2010 - 02:13 PM.

[medicineman]

I agree Chris. Burn the bible, or the Koran, the Iliad, it matters none, but I am uneasy about the intent this Pastor has. If it was some crazed French intellectual who was going to carry out the burning, I would not think twice of it.

[the_colossus]

If you don't like or agree with something you should just say so and why. Burning something, whether a religious book or a painting of the ocean really offends people and ruins any possibility to change their minds. It just makes them dig their heels in.

If you actual want to change someone's mind make your point respectful. Burning something is just an excuse to vent anger and frustrations, which usually is about stuff that is totally unrelated. I was going to say it could also be about popularity, but if the need for fame is so much that you do something that you know is very hurtful it comes from frustration and anger. Anger about how life is, that you feel you should get more attention.

[niner]

I have mixed feelings about this. If the person holding this ceremony was someone other then that sociopath, I might be disinterested in this whole thing, but knowing the man, and his stance on various topics, such as same sex marriage, I am disturbed. Is he the voice of America? Is that what the voice of America has descended to????

He's a Christianist extremist. As such, he's no more the voice of America than Islamist extremists are the voice of Islam. Both give voice to the extremist subsets of their respective populations. The Florida pastor has been denounced from the highest levels of government, various religions, the press, the military and responsible people throughout the world. If the nut actually goes through with his plan, I would expect to see a large counter-demonstration and an enormous police presence to try to keep people from killing each other. It will be a Media Circus. Sadly, to much of the world, this crank will be the face of America.

[Ben]

He's a Christianist extremist. As such, he's no more the voice of America than Islamist extremists are the voice of Islam.

I think there's a small difference in burning the koran and blowing up a busload of children. It's unfair to the same word to describe both outlooks.

The Florida pastor has been denounced from the highest levels of government, various religions, the press, the military and responsible people throughout the world.

Cowardly Muslim appeasement. The only stance these people will understand is violence and force. You can't deal with a primitive mentality any other way, and they've earned no more from us. Personally, I believe all muslims are responsible for the extremists in their ranks. Collective responsibility is the only way to ensure that muslim extremism is attacked from the inside and eradicated.

If the nut actually goes through with his plan, I would expect to see a large counter-demonstration and an enormous police presence to try to keep people from killing each other. It will be a Media Circus. Sadly, to much of the world, this crank will be the face of America.

Good. Let them. Let them scream and shout: "down with democracy." They will do it anyway. At least one guy is making a stand and refusing to bend over for these aggressors.

If there were only liberals in America, right now it'd be Ameristan. The liberals having very kindly, and politely, without wanting to insult anyone's precious religion, having handed over the country as it was the only "right" thing to do, and besides, if they didn't the Muslims would be angry.

[kismet]

Of course, it's unfortunate that a religious cook decided to do it, but burning magic books of superstition is a beautiful symbol!

If you don't like or agree with something you should just say so and why. Burning something, whether a religious book or a painting of the ocean really offends people and ruins any possibility to change their minds. It just makes them dig their heels in.

Your argument fails on many levels. You do know that art and other forms expression both actually do convey the "why", albeit non-vocally, (and are constitutionally protected)? Additionally, people responsible made rather clear why they are burning the koran. The message is clear, people have the right to choose their medium.

You CANNOT voice your opinion on religion without offending SOMEONE. Period. And it's everyone's consitutional right to offend, because it does no real harm. The harm is perceived and subjective. If I merely tell the truth I will already offend. Does Dawkins offend? "The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."
Well, truth can be stranger than fiction; he's not even lying!

No one tries to change the mind of radicals. Do you really believe you can change the mind of someone who would kill because a lunatic somewhere on the planet burned a stack of paper?

If you actual want to change someone's mind make your point respectful. Burning something is just an excuse to vent anger and frustrations, which usually is about stuff that is totally unrelated.

It is not intended as such, but this amounts to performance art. It will open the eyes of people and remind them that fundamentalism is as dangerous as ever and that islam, especially radical islam, is a toxic and dangerous religion. As we have seen: the radicals and a few "moderates" are already threatening us with death while the religious "moderates" across the globe are giving them cover.

It will show that you cannot blackmail us out of our constitutional rights.

If the US never waged an aggressive war and all countries in the world burned magical books out of solidarity the islamistic threats of violence would be diluted into irrelevance. Now of course this may threaten a few additional Americans or soldiers but we should not be blackmailed into changing the constitution to please islamists.
If their threats were effective once they will do it again and again until...

---

If there were only liberals in America, right now it'd be Ameristan. The liberals having very kindly, and politely, without wanting to insult anyone's precious religion, having handed over the country as it was the only "right" thing to do, and besides, if they didn't the Muslims would be angry.

Are you sure about your terminology? I consider myself closest to a liberal and I would despise compromising our rights to please radicals. Not that I followed the discussion closely enough to comment authoritatively but it seems a nice term emerged for those who are so spineless that they want to please everyone, no matter how irrational, it's "accomodationists".

Edited by kismet, 10 September 2010 - 11:26 AM.

[the_colossus]

You CANNOT voice your opinion on religion without offending SOMEONE. Period. And it's everyone's consitutional right to offend, because it does no real harm. The harm is perceived and subjective.

Just because you can't doesn't mean others can't. Even if it is true you can try to do it in the least offensive way possible.

Whenever you enrage people needlessly it causes harm. I wasn't saying it is illegal, just out of respect you shouldn't. If someone disrespects you it doesn't make it okay to do the same to that person.

And I was talking about convincing moderates, those that might be receptive. If you do something out of spite against extremists and it offends moderates as well it causes harm to your cause because others think that life extension is full of bigots.

Anyone who went to this website and read your post about burning something sacred to someone else they would stop and leave. That isn't what you want.

Try to be as respectful as possible, if human decency isn't enough do it out of respect for the cause.

[kismet]

Just because you can't doesn't mean others can't. Even if it is true you can try to do it in the least offensive way possible.

No one can (compare op. cit. text and all the holy books). It is a matter of fact. However, you do have a point that you can try to be the least offensive. The issue is only that objective criteria for "offense" are lacking which is the reason why it's usually not punishable. Burning a koran is in fact terribly inoffensive; declaring women second-class citizens isn't, for instance. So why should the former lead to an international outcry while the latter - arguably a million times more offensive to us - is just accepted as a core tenet of islam? Who decides what is offensive or not?

Who says offending is wrong? Art regularly offends. The great reformers of all time have offended.
There are different strategies to accomplish once goals and all have their pros and cons; ironically the vocal "offensive" atheists have had quite a lot of success incl. "converting" many religious to rationality. Despite being mean, harsh, offensive and most of all honest..

Being offensive per se is not an unwise move.

Now of course the fundamentalist pastor is (was) planing the burning for all the wrong reasons. Nonetheless you cannot so easily say that his plan was a net negative (or at least completely negative). It illustrates all the things that are wrong w/ our society. Most importantly it shows how dangerous religion often is.

Whenever you enrage people needlessly it causes harm. I wasn't saying it is illegal, just out of respect you shouldn't. If someone disrespects you it doesn't make it okay to do the same to that person.

You do not deserve respect, you earn it.

You can never not enrage people, because so many things are offensive to so many groups.

And I was talking about convincing moderates, those that might be receptive. If you do something out of spite against extremists and it offends moderates as well it causes harm to your cause because others think that life extension is full of bigots.

Anyone who will kill for a book or cover and support those who do is hardly a moderate. While this may scare a few true moderates others may distance themselves from a religion that threatens to kill over a book. Barring evidence, who knows what the impact will be?
and the whole fiasco is not much of a problem for our community anyway. If you think "offending on purpose" makes one a bigot, you should really look the word up. (of course the pastor in question is a terrible bigot who is burning the koran for all the wrong reasons, nonetheless the situation is a good test for our democracies and will effectively showcase how toxic islam and other religions are - at least there is an upside)

Anyone who went to this website and read your post about burning something sacred to someone else they would stop and leave. That isn't what you want.

It could hurt the cause (hypothetically!), but I don't care for the simple reason that my posts are rather moderate and would mostly only offend the very religious, the bigots and hypocritical accomodationists; people that really are not needed* on this site and would hardly subscribe anyway. My principles - honoring personal liberties - stand above the bickering of a few.

The koran is not sacred by the way. To me and fellow rational minds anyway. The pious cannot demand that non-believers treat their text with the same reverence as if we really believed them. The same way I cannot demand (and get them) to actually reconsider their theological position other than by asking kindly.

(and ofc, I could add that I have not been the most unsuccessful in helping convert people from "supplement fadists" or fence sitters to real life extension, despite my harsh honesty - diff. strategies..)

*IMHO

Try to be as respectful as possible, if human decency isn't enough do it out of respect for the cause.

Speak for yourself. I do not wish to live in such a dystopian world. Thankfully, it's not a black and white dichotomy between "shut up for the cause" and "be honest and die"; We can have both for the most part! Just fight for it and don't be a coward. People have the right to offend.

Edited by kismet, 10 September 2010 - 11:19 PM.

[cathological]

Muslims fly jet airliners into WTC and pentagon in the name of islam, slowly decapitate a large number of westerners while shouting "allah is great", are obsessed with the distruction of western countries and so on = americans don't want to hurt muslims by offending their feelings. Constantly say islam is peaceful and practiced almost entirely of moderates, and so on. An american threatens to burn a koran = muslim mobs riot all over the world burning american flags, calling for the murder of all americans, and so on. Are you people aware that you're all probably deeply offending muslims right now simply by not being a muslim and not paying them Jizya? Do you know you can go to youtube right now and watch videos of korans being burned that nobody seems to care about?

[cathological]

&lt;object width=&quot;480&quot; height=&quot;385&quot;&gt;&lt;param name=&quot;movie&quot; value=&quot;http://www.youtube.c...&#62;&#60;param name=&quot;allowFullScreen&quot; value=&quot;true&quot;&gt;&lt;/param&gt;&lt;param name=&quot;allowscriptaccess&quot; value=&quot;always&quot;&gt;&lt;/param&gt;&lt;embed src=&quot;http://www.youtube.c...p;hl=en_US&#34; type=&quot;application/x-shockwave-flash&quot; allowscriptaccess=&quot;always&quot; allowfullscreen=&quot;true&quot; width=&quot;480&quot; height=&quot;385&quot;&gt;&lt;/embed&gt;&lt;/object&gt;<br /><br /><br /> See.

Edited by cathological, 11 September 2010 - 01:59 AM.

[brokenportal]

I read the Bible and the Koran a long time ago. As an anecdote Ive had my copy of the Koran as a prop to hold my keyboard up for years now. I periodically pull it out and read some passages. Its an interesting book.

I have a question to anybody. Can you name 3 things that each of those books says to kill for that might leave a lot of us feeling a bit uneasy?

[medicineman]

He's a Christianist extremist. As such, he's no more the voice of America than Islamist extremists are the voice of Islam.

I think there's a small difference in burning the koran and blowing up a busload of children. It's unfair to the same word to describe both outlooks.

The Florida pastor has been denounced from the highest levels of government, various religions, the press, the military and responsible people throughout the world.

Cowardly Muslim appeasement. The only stance these people will understand is violence and force. You can't deal with a primitive mentality any other way, and they've earned no more from us. Personally, I believe all muslims are responsible for the extremists in their ranks. Collective responsibility is the only way to ensure that muslim extremism is attacked from the inside and eradicated.

If the nut actually goes through with his plan, I would expect to see a large counter-demonstration and an enormous police presence to try to keep people from killing each other. It will be a Media Circus. Sadly, to much of the world, this crank will be the face of America.

Good. Let them. Let them scream and shout: "down with democracy." They will do it anyway. At least one guy is making a stand and refusing to bend over for these aggressors.

If there were only liberals in America, right now it'd be Ameristan. The liberals having very kindly, and politely, without wanting to insult anyone's precious religion, having handed over the country as it was the only "right" thing to do, and besides, if they didn't the Muslims would be angry.

Many of the muslims in American soil are there because of America's geopolitical ventures in the region. The Iraqis in Detroit, the Afghanis in Lincoln and numerous other examples I can think of. This is the same for Pakistanis and Indians in the UK and Algerians in France. Do you not see these nations as responsible (at least partly) for the backwardness of these regions? Historically, the muslim mentality was not as intolerant as it seems now, and examples are not difficult to find.

Do you not see how certain aspects like a youth bulge and state corruption in muslim nations (thanks to installed leaders), coupled with poverty (created by corruption and decades of colonialism) can create a condition which can foster these vile characteristics? Egypt for example, has one of the most corrupt rulers in the world, yet he not only uses extreme force and violence on opposition, he is also guaranteed his position by the U.S. Do you really expect that tampering with nations in this way will not produce hatred, and not serve as justification for the thoughts that these people have?

I am just presenting these ideas for you to consider. Maybe instead of labelling a population as carrying a primitive mentality, other factors which might be subtle need to be considered.

[medicineman]

Muslims fly jet airliners into WTC and pentagon in the name of islam, slowly decapitate a large number of westerners while shouting "allah is great", are obsessed with the distruction of western countries and so on = americans don't want to hurt muslims by offending their feelings. Constantly say islam is peaceful and practiced almost entirely of moderates, and so on. An american threatens to burn a koran = muslim mobs riot all over the world burning american flags, calling for the murder of all americans, and so on. Are you people aware that you're all probably deeply offending muslims right now simply by not being a muslim and not paying them Jizya? Do you know you can go to youtube right now and watch videos of korans being burned that nobody seems to care about?

All major civilizations has had their share of atrocities. The Crusades 1-9 held in the name of Christianity, which were as much religious as political. Christian massacre of Jews in the Rhineland. Catholic support for Hitler during ww2. The inquisition. Russian orthodox anti-semitism during tsar Alexander the thirds reign, which initiated Jewish pogroms. Persecution of hellenistics after roman conversion to Christianity. Charlemagnes campaign of convert or be killed (which isn't too different from current extremist Islam) across Europe.

and I dont need to show the ignorance of blaming a population of people on the action of a few.

and not all over the world. mostly in run down muslim nations. I live in the middle east, not one riot or protest. not in bahrain, in saudi, etc..... a riot would not only be controlled swiftly, but most likely violently suppressed by American friendly leadership

Edited by medicineman, 11 September 2010 - 02:18 AM.

[medicineman]

I read the Bible and the Koran a long time ago. As an anecdote Ive had my copy of the Koran as a prop to hold my keyboard up for years now. I periodically pull it out and read some passages. Its an interesting book.

I have a question to anybody. Can you name 3 things that each of those books says to kill for that might leave a lot of us feeling a bit uneasy?

A friend of mine actually rolls his marijuana joints on a Koran, he says his adventures with cannabis are holy to him...... makes sense.

uh oh, i better watch out, this can get me in trouble by the online state police

and these is alot more than 3 things in both these books that might make an individual uneasy

Edited by medicineman, 11 September 2010 - 02:24 AM.

[brokenportal]

I know, Im just saying, if somebody would, please list a good 3 really violent punishments for what we might consider petty things, from each book.

[medicineman]

I have mixed feelings about this. If the person holding this ceremony was someone other then that sociopath, I might be disinterested in this whole thing, but knowing the man, and his stance on various topics, such as same sex marriage, I am disturbed. Is he the voice of America? Is that what the voice of America has descended to????

and my apologies for saying he is the voice of America. He obviously is not. It is just in an article, I read he might become the voice of America, and labels like that actually bug me.

[cathological]

All major civilizations has had their share of atrocities. The Crusades 1-9 held in the name of Christianity, which were as much religious as political. Christian massacre of Jews in the Rhineland. Catholic support for Hitler during ww2. The inquisition. Russian orthodox anti-semitism during tsar Alexander the thirds reign, which initiated Jewish pogroms. Persecution of hellenistics after roman conversion to Christianity. Charlemagnes campaign of convert or be killed (which isn't too different from current extremist Islam) across Europe.

and I dont need to show the ignorance of blaming a population of people on the action of a few.

and not all over the world. mostly in run down muslim nations. I live in the middle east, not one riot or protest. not in bahrain, in saudi, etc..... a riot would not only be controlled swiftly, but most likely violently suppressed by American friendly leadership

These examples all deal with religions in general. I don't mean to single out islam, they're all bad. I think it is possible to blame a religion without having a problem with the individuals who are "members" of it. I suppose a muslim extremist is more of a true muslim than a moderate muslim would be. The same could be said for christians that kill doctors that have performed abortions. I've known quite a few muslims and get along with them just as well as I would with anybody else. It's really a non issue, however, I'm an aquantaince with a hardcore afgan general who fought the russians and I've come across some real serious muslim types and at that point, with people such as that it may become slightly awkward while trying to get along with people. Im not sure that makes sense but maybe it will. At any rate I don't have any respect for the american media and I wouldn't put it beyond them to have exagerated or completly fabricated the muslim reaction to this whole koran thing. My real issue here is with how the american media does things. Also I disagree with your premise that poverty has anything to do with it.

[cathological]

Really now out of all the things americans are doing and have done why would someone burning a koran stand out like it's the most offensive thing that's ever happened?

[medicineman]

All major civilizations has had their share of atrocities. The Crusades 1-9 held in the name of Christianity, which were as much religious as political. Christian massacre of Jews in the Rhineland. Catholic support for Hitler during ww2. The inquisition. Russian orthodox anti-semitism during tsar Alexander the thirds reign, which initiated Jewish pogroms. Persecution of hellenistics after roman conversion to Christianity. Charlemagnes campaign of convert or be killed (which isn't too different from current extremist Islam) across Europe.

and I dont need to show the ignorance of blaming a population of people on the action of a few.

and not all over the world. mostly in run down muslim nations. I live in the middle east, not one riot or protest. not in bahrain, in saudi, etc..... a riot would not only be controlled swiftly, but most likely violently suppressed by American friendly leadership

These examples all deal with religions in general. I don't mean to single out islam, they're all bad. I think it is possible to blame a religion without having a problem with the individuals who are "members" of it. I suppose a muslim extremist is more of a true muslim than a moderate muslim would be. The same could be said for christians that kill doctors that have performed abortions. I've known quite a few muslims and get along with them just as well as I would with anybody else. It's really a non issue, however, I'm an aquantaince with a hardcore afgan general who fought the russians and I've come across some real serious muslim types and at that point, with people such as that it may become slightly awkward while trying to get along with people. Im not sure that makes sense but maybe it will. At any rate I don't have any respect for the american media and I wouldn't put it beyond them to have exagerated or completly fabricated the muslim reaction to this whole koran thing. My real issue here is with how the american media does things. Also I disagree with your premise that poverty has anything to do with it.

Yes, that makes sense. I completely agree. Regarding poverty, while it does not directly bring feelings of religiosity, the animated and extravagant awards in the afterlife sure make things seem better if you were a peasant with barely enough to sustain yourself. Speaking of Islam, it was mostly the slaves, peasants, and the illiterate who converted first. I can probably say the same about Christianity. This is what Nietzsche was talking about when he called on man to raise his head out of the sand of heavenly things (im not a nietzschean, but I enjoy his writing). This sand of heavenly things is exactly what gives hope to people who barely make it through the day.

Education to poverty stricken people is also limited. Sometimes, it is these extremists who are state sponsored who teach and feed these poor. It is no surprise that late 1800 and early 1900 populist and socialist movements targeted peasants.

anyways, im quite uncomfortable continuing this debate. A friend of mine was pulled in for saying things online the powers that be werent too happy about.

[niner]

Really now out of all the things americans are doing and have done why would someone burning a koran stand out like it's the most offensive thing that's ever happened?

Why are there millions of Americans who think we should have a constitutional amendment prohibiting flag burning? It's just a piece of cloth, right? Maybe you're cool with burning people's sacred symbols. I'm not a fan of religions or tribalism, so I don't care what you burn, as long as I don't have to pay for it or breathe the smoke. But I can at least understand that some people really care a lot about their symbols. I just don't see how burning religious books is a good thing. It just pisses people off.

[cathological]

Why are there millions of Americans who think we should have a constitutional amendment prohibiting flag burning? It's just a piece of cloth, right? Maybe you're cool with burning people's sacred symbols. I'm not a fan of religions or tribalism, so I don't care what you burn, as long as I don't have to pay for it or breathe the smoke. But I can at least understand that some people really care a lot about their symbols. I just don't see how burning religious books is a good thing. It just pisses people off.

I've never met anyone who thought we should have a constitutional amendment prohibiting flag burning. Not only would people I know not care many would be likely to say "fuck america" if you talked to them about patriotism. Seriously, a student wearing a shirt that has an american flag on it to a public school in california will offend people and cause a protest / walkout among the mexican students. It is indeed just a piece of cloth when you get right down to it. Should we be afraid of a backlash when someone burns a piece of cloth? Or if someone wears a piece of cloth? Ok, it's offensive and it's not a good thing, it's also trivial. People are going to kill each other over trivial stuff like this, is it justified? A woman wearing a dress alone in public might be more likely to get raped, does this make it her fault? Should any remotely attractive clothing be outlawed and women be forced to wear berkas? After all, it doesn't take much to make some of the rapists out there lose self control. Shall we ban wearing the colors red and blue?

Damn, do democrats have any idea how much they sound like conservative wack jobs lately?

Edited by cathological, 11 September 2010 - 05:00 AM.

[cathological]

anyways, im quite uncomfortable continuing this debate. A friend of mine was pulled in for saying things online the powers that be werent too happy about.

No problem, I don't know what to say other than good luck with that.

[Forever21]

Why burn when you can put it in the toilet.

Edited by Forever21, 11 September 2010 - 05:42 AM.

[niner]

Why are there millions of Americans who think we should have a constitutional amendment prohibiting flag burning? It's just a piece of cloth, right? Maybe you're cool with burning people's sacred symbols. I'm not a fan of religions or tribalism, so I don't care what you burn, as long as I don't have to pay for it or breathe the smoke. But I can at least understand that some people really care a lot about their symbols. I just don't see how burning religious books is a good thing. It just pisses people off.

I've never met anyone who thought we should have a constitutional amendment prohibiting flag burning.

Do you know many Republicans?

Damn, do democrats have any idea how much they sound like conservative wack jobs lately?

Thank you! I was getting really tired of being called a Marxist.

[cathological]

Do you know many Republicans?

...

Thank you! I was getting really tired of being called a Marxist.

They are one in the same if you ask me. Maybe this was a topic of interest to republicans 15 years ago but nowadays they're only giving lip service to the economy. At any rate I think the democrats and republicans are just two puppet groups used as a devide and conquer stratagy by a shadow dictatorship to control public sentiment and limit thinking to canned, pasturized, preaproved issues. Issues such as the one we're talking about now in this thread, it's ultimately a pointless topic they're getting everyone worked up about. This is my problem with the media. A handful of guys own the whole thing, they must all know each other personally and collude on things. It's not like 2 of them are democrats and the other two are republicans and they hate each other... It wouldn't be like this if the real powers that be weren't trying to solidify control. Your choice is dictatorship. That iraq war is still going on and the repubs will never shrink the goverment.

The constiution is just a piece of paper as well. Elected officials think the goverment can do pretty much whatever it wants.

[i!i]

This discussion like many others in this subforum is vastly Political.
This thread and many others in this subforum are OT.

This subforum is specifically labeled Spirituality & Religion.

Provocative threads such as this, fuel users into the directed tangents of off-topic discussions.

[medicineman]

Do you know many Republicans?

...

Thank you! I was getting really tired of being called a Marxist.

They are one in the same if you ask me. Maybe this was a topic of interest to republicans 15 years ago but nowadays they're only giving lip service to the economy. At any rate I think the democrats and republicans are just two puppet groups used as a devide and conquer stratagy by a shadow dictatorship to control public sentiment and limit thinking to canned, pasturized, preaproved issues. Issues such as the one we're talking about now in this thread, it's ultimately a pointless topic they're getting everyone worked up about. This is my problem with the media. A handful of guys own the whole thing, they must all know each other personally and collude on things. It's not like 2 of them are democrats and the other two are republicans and they hate each other... It wouldn't be like this if the real powers that be weren't trying to solidify control. Your choice is dictatorship. That iraq war is still going on and the repubs will never shrink the goverment.

The constiution is just a piece of paper as well. Elected officials think the goverment can do pretty much whatever it wants.

I agree......

[Connor MacLeod]