124 replies to this topic

[Rational Madman]

I may have missed this reading the forum but have you considered bipolar type II. Agitation and anxiety on SSRIs and in your case more then one is usually a sign of a mood disorder. Have you been on a mood stabalizer such as lithium, valproate, carbamezapine, topomariate, gabapentin (controversial), pregablin (conterversial), lamotrigine, abilify?

I might give picamilon or phenibut a go for a few days and see how you feel. If you start to cheer up on these I would reccomend getting on something GABAergic.

Is tolerance not an issue with those? I have heard of the wonderful effects on sleep that gabapentin has (that alone entices me) but I am not totally convinced that GABA based medicines don't come with rebound issues. Even Picamilon can have that effect for me sometimes and that one is fairly benign in comparison.

The broader issue is not exclusively about GABA, but the neural excitation/inhibition balance. Gabapentin and Pregablin are not simply GABAergic, but are also Ca++ channel blockers, which gives them some of the properties of NMDA antagonists like Memantine. On the minerals front, Mg++ and Zn++ are also Ca++ channel blockers, but it is controversial whether supplements merely correct deficiencies or can flood the brain like drugs.

Similarly, mood stabilisers like Valproate are Na+ channel blockers, with the corresponding minerals analogue being Li+. (This involves loads of simplifications, but you get the idea). Li+ also seems to act as a NMDA antagonist for reasons that escape me, and I'm not even sure whether it is regarded as an essential trace element.

Another way of skinning the inhibition cat is to antagonise noradrenaline. Beta blockers work centrally and peripherally, whereas agents like Clonidine work centrally only. There are tolerance and rebound issues with chronic usage here.

Lastly, 5-HT1A agonism can be anxiolytic, with Buspirone being the most specific. The nice part is that tolerance doesn't seem to be a big problem, but the downside is that it seems to be tricky to get it to work properly.

The main point I'm trying to make is that your options are not limited to habit-forming tranqs.

The problem with Buspirone is that it's a rather weak agent, and although it may appear to have some novel appeal as an adjunct, I think most of the more common serotonergics should do the trick. And it should be noted that magnesium has much more of a modulatory effect on calcium channels. Finally, the binding affinity of these drugs should be more closely examined, because altering levels of glutamate in some regions should not be conflated with a strongly antagonistic affinity for the NMDA group of receptors.

[Thorsten3]

I may have missed this reading the forum but have you considered bipolar type II. Agitation and anxiety on SSRIs and in your case more then one is usually a sign of a mood disorder. Have you been on a mood stabalizer such as lithium, valproate, carbamezapine, topomariate, gabapentin (controversial), pregablin (conterversial), lamotrigine, abilify?

I might give picamilon or phenibut a go for a few days and see how you feel. If you start to cheer up on these I would reccomend getting on something GABAergic.

Is tolerance not an issue with those? I have heard of the wonderful effects on sleep that gabapentin has (that alone entices me) but I am not totally convinced that GABA based medicines don't come with rebound issues. Even Picamilon can have that effect for me sometimes and that one is fairly benign in comparison.

The broader issue is not exclusively about GABA, but the neural excitation/inhibition balance. Gabapentin and Pregablin are not simply GABAergic, but are also Ca++ channel blockers, which gives them some of the properties of NMDA antagonists like Memantine. On the minerals front, Mg++ and Zn++ are also Ca++ channel blockers, but it is controversial whether supplements merely correct deficiencies or can flood the brain like drugs.

Similarly, mood stabilisers like Valproate are Na+ channel blockers, with the corresponding minerals analogue being Li+. (This involves loads of simplifications, but you get the idea). Li+ also seems to act as a NMDA antagonist for reasons that escape me, and I'm not even sure whether it is regarded as an essential trace element.

Another way of skinning the inhibition cat is to antagonise noradrenaline. Beta blockers work centrally and peripherally, whereas agents like Clonidine work centrally only. There are tolerance and rebound issues with chronic usage here.

Lastly, 5-HT1A agonism can be anxiolytic, with Buspirone being the most specific. The nice part is that tolerance doesn't seem to be a big problem, but the downside is that it seems to be tricky to get it to work properly.

The main point I'm trying to make is that your options are not limited to habit-forming tranqs.

Thanks John some interesting points there. I agree about your idea of the broader issue. I think everyone is looking for to achieve that 'perfect edge effect' (excuse the saying, not trying to plug Braverman's book or anything ). My ideal state of mind is where I have:

* Limited anxiety (sometimes manifested in extreme circumstances which is understandable, but this doesn't become problematic or crippling)
* A perceptive, inquistitive mind and able to balance my thoughts both compassionatley and rationally
* I feel motivated and stimulated by life
* I have the ability to feel joy and pleasure
* I am happy and content with where I am in life. Sure I always want to do better but yeah I'm happy being me.
* I have an awareness of my spiritual path and I am in tune with it

To be honest I am doing ok with regards to the above. I don't suffer with much anxiety anymore. I am perceptive, inquisitive. I am motivated and stimulated by life. I do have the ability to feel joy and pleasure. I do have an awareness of my own spiritual path.
I am however still trying to improve my compassion and rationality. I have never truly been content or happy with where I am (only at times). This all links in with depression I suppose. Sure I'm feeling a lot better these days but I suppose I am still on that road to recovery.

What you say about supressing noradrenalin is not something I'd want to do. I don't suffer with much anxiety and although noradrenalin can contribute to stress it's also crucial if I want to feel joy and pleasure in my life. Beta blockers felt weird for me.
5HT1A receptor activation is not something I would scoff at. I'd welcome it. With Buspar being such a tricky one to get right I am wondering what other agents are agonists at this receptor? 5HT1A agonism with 5HT2C antagonism would be nice

Edited by Thorsten, 04 November 2010 - 09:00 AM.

[Joseph_Dantes]

Thanks John some interesting points there. I agree about your idea of the broader issue. I think everyone is looking for to achieve that 'perfect edge effect' (excuse the saying, not trying to plug Braverman's book or anything ). My ideal state of mind is where I have:

* Limited anxiety (sometimes manifested in extreme circumstances which is understandable, but this doesn't become problematic or crippling)
* A perceptive, inquistitive mind and able to balance my thoughts both compassionatley and rationally
* I feel motivated and stimulated by life
* I have the ability to feel joy and pleasure
* I am happy and content with where I am in life. Sure I always want to do better but yeah I'm happy being me.
* I have an awareness of my spiritual path and I am in tune with it

To be honest I am doing ok with regards to the above. I don't suffer with much anxiety anymore. I am perceptive, inquisitive. I am motivated and stimulated by life. I do have the ability to feel joy and pleasure. I do have an awareness of my own spiritual path.
I am however still trying to improve my compassion and rationality. I have never truly been content or happy with where I am (only at times). This all links in with depression I suppose. Sure I'm feeling a lot better these days but I suppose I am still on that road to recovery.

You're already doing well then.

I don't think you'll get the rest of the way with drugs and diet alone.

To improve my rationality, I invented CYBORGanization. The key software tools are Emacs orgmode and www.brainstormsw.com

To reach a satisfactory degree of state control and proper emotional alignment, including compassion along with the rest of the emotional spectrum, I invented a system of deeply personal mantras and visualizations called Koanic Ataraxia. Heavy influences include The Inner Game of Tennis, Cesar Millan, Game (PUA), and Zen.

I'm busy at the moment, so I haven't had time to fully explain them, but you can see them in a fragmentary way at my blog under http://josephsblog.t...yborganization/ and http://josephsblog.t.../koanic-deluge/

[Thorsten3]

Thanks John some interesting points there. I agree about your idea of the broader issue. I think everyone is looking for to achieve that 'perfect edge effect' (excuse the saying, not trying to plug Braverman's book or anything ). My ideal state of mind is where I have:

* Limited anxiety (sometimes manifested in extreme circumstances which is understandable, but this doesn't become problematic or crippling)
* A perceptive, inquistitive mind and able to balance my thoughts both compassionatley and rationally
* I feel motivated and stimulated by life
* I have the ability to feel joy and pleasure
* I am happy and content with where I am in life. Sure I always want to do better but yeah I'm happy being me.
* I have an awareness of my spiritual path and I am in tune with it

To be honest I am doing ok with regards to the above. I don't suffer with much anxiety anymore. I am perceptive, inquisitive. I am motivated and stimulated by life. I do have the ability to feel joy and pleasure. I do have an awareness of my own spiritual path.
I am however still trying to improve my compassion and rationality. I have never truly been content or happy with where I am (only at times). This all links in with depression I suppose. Sure I'm feeling a lot better these days but I suppose I am still on that road to recovery.

You're already doing well then.

I don't think you'll get the rest of the way with drugs and diet alone.

To improve my rationality, I invented CYBORGanization. The key software tools are Emacs orgmode and www.brainstormsw.com

To reach a satisfactory degree of state control and proper emotional alignment, including compassion along with the rest of the emotional spectrum, I invented a system of deeply personal mantras and visualizations called Koanic Ataraxia. Heavy influences include The Inner Game of Tennis, Cesar Millan, Game (PUA), and Zen.

I'm busy at the moment, so I haven't had time to fully explain them, but you can see them in a fragmentary way at my blog under http://josephsblog.t...yborganization/ and http://josephsblog.t.../koanic-deluge/

Hey, sure I have no idea what any of this means but I have a very open mind. I will have a look myself and raise any neccessary questions ~I have. I currently meditate and i'm also reinforcing to myself positive thoughts. I'm a believer in the concept that if we are giving off the right type of energy we are capable of achieving anything.
What I outlined above has all been down to my recent changes in diet. It has improved all aspects of my wellbeing, immunity, life force. The rest I agree with you can only be achived by practical application. I am currently thinking about some big changes I'd like to make which will hopefully improve things for me.

[Joseph_Dantes]

Cool.

You're lucky to have figured out it was diet early.

I kind of did things backwards, improving everything else until I finally learned diet was the problem and figured out a working solution (not easy).

I want to turn some of the stuff I did into informational products, so I'm more than happy to answer questions in depth and provide customized detailed guides.

I just don't have it organized yet, because I'm busy building up my freelancing income before taking a shot at the long range projects.

My email is joseph.dantes@gmail.com, feel free to keep in touch.

[Thorsten3]

Cool.

You're lucky to have figured out it was diet early.

I kind of did things backwards, improving everything else until I finally learned diet was the problem and figured out a working solution (not easy).

I want to turn some of the stuff I did into informational products, so I'm more than happy to answer questions in depth and provide customized detailed guides.

I just don't have it organized yet, because I'm busy building up my freelancing income before taking a shot at the long range projects.

My email is joseph.dantes@gmail.com, feel free to keep in touch.

I will do dude, thanks for a lot of your insight.

[John Barleycorn]

5HT1A receptor activation is not something I would scoff at. I'd welcome it. With Buspar being such a tricky one to get right I am wondering what other agents are agonists at this receptor? 5HT1A agonism with 5HT2C antagonism would be nice

Well loads of serotonergic agents tickle 5-HT1A, but the problem is that they don't do it specifically and have multiple side effects. There are bioavailability issues with Buspirone, which I think is one of the reasons for the conflicting reports and is something that hasn't been fully resolved yet.

Re depression in general, one thing I saw recently that made sense is that it tends to be about 20% neural and 80% to do with relationships. In other words, the doc can only treat 1/5 of the problem if at the same time someone's domestic life, working life, financial state, etc, is in a mess, possibly as a result of their behaviour towards others. I'm not suggesting this is the case with yourself, BTW, but it is common. So some of the suggestions to improve diet, exercise and meditation are all well and good, but these still tend to be a solitary, cure-yourself sort of thing and neglect the relationships aspect. In some ways, this board's pretext (ie, pursuit of immortality) is the ultimate solitary endeavour.

[Yearningforyears]

Hey, I ate 25 grams of pumpkin seeds yesterday and guess what? My anxiety improved within a couple of hours and the effects are still noticeable.
Thought about buying l-tryptophan powder, but if these seeds are doing the trick then they are probably better because of the other health benefits they can provide
I recall now that one of healthiest moods occurred when eating these seeds regularly. Even began to run for half an hour every three days, which further improved mood.
Don´t want to sound too negative, but I don´t think it´s possible to catch a highly productive mood state and keep it stable and inspiring for eternity (not that one should strive for depression...).
But that´s just my view of course, and I do encourage you to try to reach your fullest potential for happiness.

There is some information about pumpkin seeds and anxiety (even social anxiety) if you do a google search.
Here is one very interesting link!

http://curezone.com/...m.asp?i=1029965

I did notice that too much pumpkin seed daily (100 grams) made me too calm and sleepy (although very functional at work), so there is a sweet spot with these too.

Edited by Nicholas, 05 November 2010 - 07:24 PM.

[Thorsten3]

Hey, I ate 25 grams of pumpkin seeds yesterday and guess what? My anxiety improved within a couple of hours and the effects are still noticeable.
Thought about buying l-tryptophan powder, but if these seeds are doing the trick then they are probably better because of the other health benefits they can provide
I recall now that one of healthiest moods occurred when eating these seeds regularly. Even began to run for half an hour every three days, which further improved mood.
Don´t want to sound too negative, but I don´t think it´s possible to catch a highly productive mood state and keep it stable and inspiring for eternity (not that one should strive for depression...).
But that´s just my view of course, and I do encourage you to try to reach your fullest potential for happiness.

There is some information about pumpkin seeds and anxiety (even social anxiety) if you do a google search.
Here is one very interesting link!

http://curezone.com/...m.asp?i=1029965

I did notice that too much pumpkin seed daily (100 grams) made me too calm and sleepy (although very functional at work), so there is a sweet spot with these too.

That's great news. Another example of how food can be beneficial. Are these seeds helping you sleep? Is it day long anti-anxiety?

[Thorsten3]

5HT1A receptor activation is not something I would scoff at. I'd welcome it. With Buspar being such a tricky one to get right I am wondering what other agents are agonists at this receptor? 5HT1A agonism with 5HT2C antagonism would be nice

Well loads of serotonergic agents tickle 5-HT1A, but the problem is that they don't do it specifically and have multiple side effects. There are bioavailability issues with Buspirone, which I think is one of the reasons for the conflicting reports and is something that hasn't been fully resolved yet.

Re depression in general, one thing I saw recently that made sense is that it tends to be about 20% neural and 80% to do with relationships. In other words, the doc can only treat 1/5 of the problem if at the same time someone's domestic life, working life, financial state, etc, is in a mess, possibly as a result of their behaviour towards others. I'm not suggesting this is the case with yourself, BTW, but it is common. So some of the suggestions to improve diet, exercise and meditation are all well and good, but these still tend to be a solitary, cure-yourself sort of thing and neglect the relationships aspect. In some ways, this board's pretext (ie, pursuit of immortality) is the ultimate solitary endeavour.

Agreed, that's why the general population (with menaingful relationships) have that cushion like effect that prevents them from crashing into depression.
I've already mentioned in the thread that this is an area I want to improve. I had lots of freinds but I lost them for a few reasons. I will be making some very big changes to my life in the next few months which will hopefully improve this situation. One of which will be a change of location, this is essential if I want to move forward.

[Yearningforyears]

[
That's great news. Another example of how food can be beneficial. Are these seeds helping you sleep? Is it day long anti-anxiety?
[/quote]

Oh yes. They have improved sleep in the past and falling asleep was no big deal yesterday. A dose taken in the evening will have anti-anxiety effects for me the day after and it is day long. Too strange I forgot about this habit. One reason I quit was ironically because I missed my anxiety! All kind of thoughts started to pop up after a while. Like... Now what? What should I do? What is the meaning of all this? So not having the usual worries paved the way for another kind of existential stress (very low level). Could be loneliness since I´m not socializing very much outside work. Time is not an issue when you are a member of the immortality institute however

[Thorsten3]

Oh yes. They have improved sleep in the past and falling asleep was no big deal yesterday. A dose taken in the evening will have anti-anxiety effects for me the day after and it is day long. Too strange I forgot about this habit. One reason I quit was ironically because I missed my anxiety! All kind of thoughts started to pop up after a while. Like... Now what? What should I do? What is the meaning of all this? So not having the usual worries paved the way for another kind of existential stress (very low level). Could be loneliness since I´m not socializing very much outside work. Time is not an issue when you are a member of the immortality institute however

Wow tht sounds like major efficiency you have going on there with these seeds. Who would have thought that? Hemp seeds and sunflower seeds are also good for tryptophan you know. As is Papaya fruit, dried dates. All have a high tryptophan/low phenylalanine profile. I'm only beginning to learn about this stuff. I have noticed my sleep is improving. I still always wake up in the middle of the night though with a thumping heartbeat. Might go to the doctor about that, it doesn't sound too healthy. It may be related to blood sugar levels? I don't know.. Maybe I eat too late? Taurine, theanine and other GABA agents don't improve the situation. Melatonin improves it slightly but it makes me feel totally out of it for the next 24hrs, totally unproductive. Sorry I've gone a bit off subject here. I tend to do that sometimes.

What's your diet like overall Nicholas? Do you eat well generally?

Edited by Thorsten, 05 November 2010 - 08:40 PM.

[Yearningforyears]

Waking up early is really annoying, especially if there is anxiety involved. At least your heart is thumping :P
Could it be that you have long working days with rapid changes in their scheduling, that intefere with your internal sleep clock?
I also experimented with melatonin but it was pretty unreliable and sometimes produced weird reactions. I would wake up 4 pm feeling extremely awake, but when I tried to move my body it felt totally numb. Almost as if it was sleeping! I dosed it by opening a capsule and taking a heap of it. Not the best way probably.
There is a time delay melatonin available on prescription called circadin. Could be better than just taking small heaps of the stuff.
Then you have those anti-histamine like medications which work long time to prevent early awakenings. Unfortunately they often give a pretty hung over feeling the next day.
Going off topic is how we learn new stuff in unexpected ways ^_^

My diet is probably not the best. I don´t eat fruit and vegetables are also a pretty rare treat on the platter. I know this will have to change really soon. Starting with a daily carrot tomorrow!

A normal day would be: 2 litres milk (bulking up. a great way for getting extra calories the easy way), some bread, pasta (with extra fibre), some meat, bread (and pumpkin seeds of course)... Oh... it´s pretty atriocious but at least I don´t eat candy or drink sodas...

I supplement with magnesium, zinc, fish oil, vitamin c and pomegranate juice (probably the only green product in my diet).

Back to the sleeping part:

Going to bed at the same time every day will probably help. If you somtimes use alcohol to fall asleep it´s best to avoid . This drug disrupts the sleep cycle even in small quantities (but you probaby already know this. Not that I think you are a sleep drinker).
A cliche advice perhaps: Trying to have fun a couple of hours before bed with something you enjoy to do. Watching a funny movie or something that is not too stimulating.
Relaxing aromatherapy is good as well. Sniffing on a lavender bottle (neroli is awesome for this) has helped me to unwind.
Not sure if they are useful to prevent early awakenings, but I know that the hospitals in England often give this to patients with sleeping problems (well... I saw it on TV).
I think they use lavender - and hops filled pillows.

Then there is the cognitive approach to sleep. If you are worried about your heart this could also contribute to a stressful sleep. Why is my heart racing? Something must be wrong with it otherwise it wouldn´t speed off like this in the middle of the night! There are even cogntivie behavioral books with sleep as the only topic.
I used to be worried about having seizures after falling asleep (i had some nocturnal seizures long time ago) and this of course made the most relaxing part of the day absolutely terrifying. Thankfully this issue went away with time and I just got a mood disorder ;D (so well... I did not see a therapist about this, but my fears definitely made it harder to relax)

[Thorsten3]

Waking up early is really annoying, especially if there is anxiety involved. At least your heart is thumping :P
Could it be that you have long working days with rapid changes in their scheduling, that intefere with your internal sleep clock?
I also experimented with melatonin but it was pretty unreliable and sometimes produced weird reactions. I would wake up 4 pm feeling extremely awake, but when I tried to move my body it felt totally numb. Almost as if it was sleeping! I dosed it by opening a capsule and taking a heap of it. Not the best way probably.
There is a time delay melatonin available on prescription called circadin. Could be better than just taking small heaps of the stuff.
Then you have those anti-histamine like medications which work long time to prevent early awakenings. Unfortunately they often give a pretty hung over feeling the next day.
Going off topic is how we learn new stuff in unexpected ways ^_^

My diet is probably not the best. I don´t eat fruit and vegetables are also a pretty rare treat on the platter. I know this will have to change really soon. Starting with a daily carrot tomorrow!

A normal day would be: 2 litres milk (bulking up. a great way for getting extra calories the easy way), some bread, pasta (with extra fibre), some meat, bread (and pumpkin seeds of course)... Oh... it´s pretty atriocious but at least I don´t eat candy or drink sodas...

I supplement with magnesium, zinc, fish oil, vitamin c and pomegranate juice (probably the only green product in my diet).

Back to the sleeping part:

Going to bed at the same time every day will probably help. If you somtimes use alcohol to fall asleep it´s best to avoid . This drug disrupts the sleep cycle even in small quantities (but you probaby already know this. Not that I think you are a sleep drinker).
A cliche advice perhaps: Trying to have fun a couple of hours before bed with something you enjoy to do. Watching a funny movie or something that is not too stimulating.
Relaxing aromatherapy is good as well. Sniffing on a lavender bottle (neroli is awesome for this) has helped me to unwind.
Not sure if they are useful to prevent early awakenings, but I know that the hospitals in England often give this to patients with sleeping problems (well... I saw it on TV).
I think they use lavender - and hops filled pillows.

Then there is the cognitive approach to sleep. If you are worried about your heart this could also contribute to a stressful sleep. Why is my heart racing? Something must be wrong with it otherwise it wouldn´t speed off like this in the middle of the night! There are even cogntivie behavioral books with sleep as the only topic.
I used to be worried about having seizures after falling asleep (i had some nocturnal seizures long time ago) and this of course made the most relaxing part of the day absolutely terrifying. Thankfully this issue went away with time and I just got a mood disorder ;D (so well... I did not see a therapist about this, but my fears definitely made it harder to relax)

Thanks some good advice there.

You have me thinking. You know what I think I'm going to sell my laptop. I spend far too much time on here and I think it might actually be an addictive problem. The only thing I would miss is my music, I would be gutted to loose all my tunes that I've been downloading for years. I need to get an ipod and then use someone elses computer for the transfer of the music. Then I'll no longer need a laptop. Could still use the internet on my phone but it would cost me. It would cut my usage dramatically and it be more productive for me in the long run. I notice you're not online as much as me, it seems you don't have this problem lol

Yeah not sure about the heart thing. It is really weird. I eat well, always feel tired come bed time and then like clockwork I'll awake a few hours later really tense and stiff. I notice if I change position or get up to take a leak I can get back to sleep. Mostly though I'll just lay there in this sort of zombified half awake state where it's as if I am too paralysed to move. I can move if I want to but I decide to carry on laying there. Eventually I drop back off. Then I end up oversleeping past my alarm (it's very very loud). I used to have perfect sleep. Interestingly this all started when I started playing around with agomelatine. In fact it was a common side effect for me that seems to have continued.

Indeed I think you could make a few changes to your diet! Have you ever tried cutting out wheat? (pasta, bread especially). I feel tons better after doing so. Try it! The main headache is finding stuff to replace it. I mean we all love bread and pasta. It didn't take much for me to let go of them though.

[Joseph_Dantes]

Thorsten, for depression and social problems, I recommend you read Cesar Millan's book and watch the first season of The Dog Whisperer. It turns out that dogs have very similar emotional problems to humans, and the solution is often also the same - get the mind unlocked and moving forward. Of course there's much more than that... check it out. Everything's available on Bittorrent and rapidshare.

[John Barleycorn]

Agreed, that's why the general population (with menaingful relationships) have that cushion like effect that prevents them from crashing into depression.

It's not just familial relationships or even friendships. It's a feeling of achievement in your work, regard from your employer if you have one, a feeling of being connected to a community, etc. Before you throw your laptop away, consider that Imminst is one kind of community.

One mistake I made was the idea that I would get my head together and then work on patching up my relationships. Until I received some guidance, I didn't anticipate that getting my relationships together might patch up my head.

A couple more suggestions in the inhibitory department: AMPA antagonists like topiramate. There seems to be more evidence for inhibition of NMDA as an anti-depression strategy, but the AMPA route does seem to be more strongly associated with mood stabilisation. Oddly enough, positive AMPA modulators like aniracetam also seem to be anxiolytic (for some), and speedy for others. Just a couple more straws to grasp.

[Thorsten3]

Agreed, that's why the general population (with menaingful relationships) have that cushion like effect that prevents them from crashing into depression.

It's not just familial relationships or even friendships. It's a feeling of achievement in your work, regard from your employer if you have one, a feeling of being connected to a community, etc. Before you throw your laptop away, consider that Imminst is one kind of community.

Thanks. Thankfully I kind of have this to a certain extent. The job I do is pretty rewarding, I earn pretty well. I have good freindships with people I work with. I only have 2 or 3 genuine freinds though in my private life. I did have more but we (them and myself) have drifted away for reasons I'd rather not talk about. I feel on top of the world when I have many freinds and I feel valued by a group. Improving this situation is definitley a matter of priority for me.

One mistake I made was the idea that I would get my head together and then work on patching up my relationships. Until I received some guidance, I didn't anticipate that getting my relationships together might patch up my head.

This is me to a tee. I have almost become obsessed with educating myself on my condition to the extent where being on here doing research is a daily obsession. My shrink that I saw recently staright away identified my obsession with this. She said that this is something that I have to change. I know this. I have to get out there. Feed my brain with life. I get withdrawls if I am not on here, seriously. This thread has helped me a lot actually. Instead of me jibbering random crap on things, that quite frankly I know very little about, its helped me unload alot of my thoughts. Despite the chaotic direction it's taken at various points, I hope people who suffer with similar sympons might be able to get some helpful tips. So yeah I hope it could be used as a valuable resource (even if it isn't so pharmaceutically orientated).
I agree that being around people that you enjoy being with promotes wonderful feelings. Warmth, content stuff. It's how we evolved I suppose and this is the recent direction I haver taken with diet too in terms of going au natural. There are a lot of opportunuities out there in terms of meeting new people and once I've sorted out the crap I have here at home (I'm a home owner with a lot of debt), I plan to move and then it's onwards and upwards.

A couple more suggestions in the inhibitory department: AMPA antagonists like topiramate. There seems to be more evidence for inhibition of NMDA as an anti-depression strategy, but the AMPA route does seem to be more strongly associated with mood stabilisation. Oddly enough, positive AMPA modulators like aniracetam also seem to be anxiolytic (for some), and speedy for others. Just a couple more straws to grasp.

Thanks I appreciate the advice here but I don't want to tune myself down. With the recent change in diet I have noticed very significant improvements. I still get excitable from time to time, but that's me. It feels good to be almost joyous by life sometimes. I went to a fireworks display the other night and I experienced shivers down my spine. I was so in awe of the beauty of those fireworks. I get the same being outdoors in nature.
I experienced less of this natural joy when I was on lithium. I tried Memantine previously and I experienced anti-depressant effects on it (may have been through NMDA, who knows) and I have also dabbled with tianeptine (another reported NMDA antagonist) but I found it too stimulating.
Aniracetam has always fascinated me. I tried it a couple of times but it gave me a heavy mental body load.
I think I am going to stay drug free for the time being. I don't see any reason why my diet approach won't last long term. I am discovering things that work and by sticking to them my state of mind right now is a hell of a lot better. In fact reading back to my first post, it almost feels like a different person.

Edited by Thorsten, 07 November 2010 - 12:54 PM.

[Thorsten3]

Thorsten, for depression and social problems, I recommend you read Cesar Millan's book and watch the first season of The Dog Whisperer. It turns out that dogs have very similar emotional problems to humans, and the solution is often also the same - get the mind unlocked and moving forward. Of course there's much more than that... check it out. Everything's available on Bittorrent and rapidshare.

Thanks man I really appreciate your continued help. I am off work today so I can check this out. I totally believe in life being all about energy forces. Blockages are not good. Diet helps immensely but what I need now is to move onto the next level in terms of developing relationships. I realise that it's only me who can do this, but I thank you for these resources as they could help immensely.

[Yearningforyears]

Oh I definitely have an internet addiction, so you are not alone in this.
We also seem to share partially the same online habits as well. Searching about cures and explanations for what it is we think that we are suffering from.
I guess spending time on these subjects ironically makes on feel less lonely, when they also contribute to the problem by creating rigid habits.
I mean sure there is no doubt there is some degree of mood disorder in my mind, and while the supplements do work there is the danger of them being a kind of substiute for social stimulation.
While trying to escape feelings of loneliness it also poses the risk of running right into it ironically.
Selling your laptop sounds drastic, but it could be good for you.
Another strategy is to slowly taper off internet use and schedule it. Try to limit the time you use it and also put limits on search subjects. For example: No more depression cure searches for more than half an hour daily. I will try this approach. To sllowly let the internet become the tool that it´s meant to be.
Quitting pasta... wow... what to eat instead?. What are the benefits of not eating weat? I am a total newbie on this diet thing.

[Joseph_Dantes]

Thanks man I really appreciate your continued help. I am off work today so I can check this out. I totally believe in life being all about energy forces. Blockages are not good. Diet helps immensely but what I need now is to move onto the next level in terms of developing relationships. I realise that it's only me who can do this, but I thank you for these resources as they could help immensely.

No problem man, any time you feel stuck feel free to give a holler!

[Joseph_Dantes]

Quitting pasta... wow... what to eat instead?. What are the benefits of not eating weat? I am a total newbie on this diet thing.

Haha. It took me a LONG time to figure that out.

Here's the basic problem: Carbs are hard to quit. Eating an all meat, or all vegetable diet, requires willpower or a controlled environment. I have neither.

So quitting or restricting carbs creates cravings, cravings create cheating, cheating bad health, bad health creates negative life feedback loops.

My solution? Eat homemade french fried potatoes whenever I feel like it.

They aren't a paleolithic food, but they're neolithic. In other words, people have been able to eat them since the invention of fire. Much better than wheat, which dates to the invention of agriculture.

This solves the whole craving problem. I can walk past restaurants without being tempted, I can resist eating too much fruit (which is also carbs), etc.

Then I balance the diet with fresh (not frozen) fish and vegetables and VERY limited (1-2 pieces per day) fruit.

If I have lots of willpower, I can cut down on potato, but if I start losing focus, a hot meal of french fries is only 10 minutes away.

The only point in restricting carbs and eliminating potatoes would be if you want to lose weight or get ripped. It's not necessary to be healthy.

Some paleo people talk about the dangers of saponins, but if you cook it well, I don't see the problem. I'm eating tons of them with no bad results, and I probably have the worst history of hypersensitivity out of anyone here.

[bobman]

My shrink that I saw recently staright away identified my obsession with this. She said that this is something that I have to change. I know this. I have to get out there. Feed my brain with life. I get withdrawls if I am not on here, seriously. This thread has helped me a lot actually. Instead of me jibbering random crap on things, that quite frankly I know very little about, its helped me unload alot of my thoughts. ...
I think I am going to stay drug free for the time being. I don't see any reason why my diet approach won't last long term. I am discovering things that work and by sticking to them my state of mind right now is a hell of a lot better. In fact reading back to my first post, it almost feels like a different person.

I think your shrink is an idiot. Not every obsession is bad, and in this case your obsession seems to help you. I think modern psychology is breeding pockets of introverts, fearful and ashamed. There have been exactly 0 major contributions in any field of knowledge from people of balanced interest.

Good luck with everything, and the above is my opinion of course. I think you should not be afraid to foster your intense desire for understanding, just don't neglect to eat, breathe, shower once in a while, work if you need to do so to survive.

edit: Just to be clear: Your shrink may need to "feed her brain with life," and so may be impressing her belief of the necessity of that hunger upon you. To some feeding the mind with life means going out to bars/clubs/restaurants/social gatherings, or even museums, etc, and in general socializing. To us introverts that seems simultaneously maddening and boring; for instance my food of life is found in books, daydreaming, imagining the future, working obsessively on side projects, thinking obsessively about matters of great importance (i.e questions of philosophy, interesting questions in physics), and generally lounging in isolation. For instance, my roommate (physics major) and I sometimes stay up till 5 in the morning, having spent maybe 6-7 hours talking a mile/minute about interesting cross-disciplinary questions (general relativity, quantum mechanics, how qm may relate to cognitive processes, programming, epistemology, retrocausality, Feynman, neo-lamarckianism, whatever) There is no single landscape of activities that is healthful for every person, this much should be obvious to her. That's why I called her an idiot, she should be careful with her recommendations. Maybe your reaction to infirmity is good, it may be the correct way for you to deal with your problems. Learning to listen to your body, and filling your mind with knowledge relevant to your condition is, I think, more important than taking advice from someone who plays scientist.

Edited by deletethisaccount, 08 November 2010 - 08:53 AM.

[Thorsten3]

My shrink that I saw recently staright away identified my obsession with this. She said that this is something that I have to change. I know this. I have to get out there. Feed my brain with life. I get withdrawls if I am not on here, seriously. This thread has helped me a lot actually. Instead of me jibbering random crap on things, that quite frankly I know very little about, its helped me unload alot of my thoughts. ...
I think I am going to stay drug free for the time being. I don't see any reason why my diet approach won't last long term. I am discovering things that work and by sticking to them my state of mind right now is a hell of a lot better. In fact reading back to my first post, it almost feels like a different person.

I think your shrink is an idiot. Not every obsession is bad, and in this case your obsession seems to help you. I think modern psychology is breeding pockets of introverts, fearful and ashamed. There have been exactly 0 major contributions in any field of knowledge from people of balanced interest.

Good luck with everything, and the above is my opinion of course. I think you should not be afraid to foster your intense desire for understanding, just don't neglect to eat, breathe, shower once in a while, work if you need to do so to survive.

edit: Just to be clear: Your shrink may need to "feed her brain with life," and so may be impressing her belief of the necessity of that hunger upon you. To some feeding the mind with life means going out to bars/clubs/restaurants/social gatherings, or even museums, etc, and in general socializing. To us introverts that seems simultaneously maddening and boring; for instance my food of life is found in books, daydreaming, imagining the future, working obsessively on side projects, thinking obsessively about matters of great importance (i.e questions of philosophy, interesting questions in physics), and generally lounging in isolation. For instance, my roommate (physics major) and I sometimes stay up till 5 in the morning, having spent maybe 6-7 hours talking a mile/minute about interesting cross-disciplinary questions (general relativity, quantum mechanics, how qm may relate to cognitive processes, programming, epistemology, retrocausality, Feynman, neo-lamarckianism, whatever) There is no single landscape of activities that is healthful for every person, this much should be obvious to her. That's why I called her an idiot, she should be careful with her recommendations. Maybe your reaction to infirmity is good, it may be the correct way for you to deal with your problems. Learning to listen to your body, and filling your mind with knowledge relevant to your condition is, I think, more important than taking advice from someone who plays scientist.

She didn't push this onto me. It was something I brought up. I said it was something that had perhaps become obsessional in my life. I also noted that I missed being part of groups and integration with like minded people. I put forward the fact that I spent hours per day at my laptop trying to work through my issues. I know myself that, although this can very helpful to a certain degree, it can hinder my progress in terms of practical application. Getting out there and living life is the only thing that is going to help me improve, not sat in my room reading about health supplements.
I too love reading and educating myself, I suppose I need to find that happy medium.
I can see where you are coming from in terms of a shrink forcing their ideals onto you. It can be based on what they think is right. I can assure you though that despite my issues I do have quite a lot of strength of character and I wouldn't do anything that I'd disagree with. It would be up to her to persuade me with actual evidence. I suppose that's the whole point of therapy though, it helps you weigh things up and judge/rationalize things better. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. There are a lot of factors that can determine successful therapy but it has been beneficial for me in the past so even if I do come across a bad therapist I don't feel defeated. It's important to keep looking and keep trying.

[Thorsten3]

I have recently started meditating before sleep. This is proving very useful for getting to sleep because it quietens my mind. It helps me become more observational of my thoughts and increases my awareness of those poisonous emotions that can hijak the mind.
My sleep has improved and I have actually stopped waking up with a thumping heartbeat in the middle of the night. God knows what that was all about.
I am however currently waking up in a highly aroused state. I don't mean sexually. I wake up feeling like I am exremely nervous. What the hell could be causing this? My recent switch in diet may have something to do with it? A lot of the foods I eat I have deliberately incorporated due to their high serotonin production factor (high tryptophan/low competing amino acids) so it should be helping me to feel far more calmer. Saying this I do indulge in cacao on daily basis (1 tbs) and it has a definite psychoactive effect. You could say I am currently using it as a anti-depressant. It stimulates and creates a low level and perfectly managable euphoria. Maybe my body is in withdrawl the morning after?
I have read in places that in the morning the human body is naturally higher in cortisol and norepiniphrine. Because I am not taking any drugs right now maybe I am noticing this more because this is my natural state each morning and it kind of shocks me. I don't remember feeling this nervous before. The strange thing is, as soon as I get up and get something to eat I start to relax and I'm ready to take on the day no problem (anxiety is rarely an issue now for me). So it's not really something that is blocking me in any way in terms of making progress with my life, it's just a general observation. I could start meditating to calm this down a bit. Might try this.

Edited by Thorsten, 08 November 2010 - 10:10 AM.

[owtsgmi]

Try out 3 grams of L-Tyrosine twice a day along with a vitamin B complex and vitamin C on an empty stomach. This has been quite mood/energy/motivation/empathy/organizational skills boosting for me.

It also appears to boost the effects of piracetam for me. Piracetam acts on both acetylcholine and dopamine systems so taking choline and dopamine precursors seems to make sense to me. Does anyone have any experiences to share with tyrosine in high doses along with various nootropics like piracetam/aniracetam etc?

To answer your question...

I have recently started taking .5-1g L-Tyrosine (morning/empty stomache) as a compliment to a long time piracetam regimen. I feel the combination (piracetam + L-Tryrosine) has definite synergy. The L-Tyrosine seems to "complete" the puzzle for me with my current stack. It has worked so well that I only take it 2 or 3 days a week. I had read that tolerance can develop (as with all the other dopamine agonists) and I didn't want to lose the great affects. I would be highly interested if others have had success mixing in L-Tyrosince with piracetam, especially regarding tolerance issues.

[biochemie]

Nah I'm not German mate, Thorsten is my nickname.

I know what you're saying about all of that positive thinking stuff. You have to believe in yourself, this much I know. Err think i'm fairly normal looking - no weird deformaties growing from my head or anything lol
I agree with you up to a point that people who look good seem to get more from life to a certain extent but I think what goes on upstairs counts for a hell of a lot too. I see some right ugly gits with really hot women. They must have something - lots of wit no doubt

Heh, ok.

another thing... how about trying priming i.e. have a printout of words that describe the way you would like to be feeling etc?
http://en.wikipedia....ing_(psychology)
funny thing eh?

besides... i am not shure if you tried mirtazapin... shure did wonders for my sleep and i "survived" quite horrendous things emotionaly speaking quite well while on it.

(now i just use doxyclamin and ocasionaly some 7,5mg mirtazapin when mind is racing and i can't get to sleep)

cheers mate

Remeron was indeed a consideration of mine. Interesting you mention that. If it came with the same level of 'depression elimination' capabilities as the SSRI's and without the anxiety - I for sure would be very interested. Would it have that capability? Not sure. It is described on there as being the opposite to SSRI's and can be used to try and stop serotonin syndrome. Good for apetite, mood, libido and has positive effects on memory. Sounds pretty dopaminergic to me. Even so, pretty interesting. Infact the way it is described on wiki actually makes it sound like something I would very seriously consider. Thanks for bringing this back to my attention.
My current approach is following a certain diet and a low dose of lithium orotate each day. It has had some positive impact but I am still waking each day with my mind in overdrive. SSRI's so far are the only thing that stop this completely. But yeah I can't tolerate the sides. I'm giving lithium a try for 2/3 weeks if I don't notice benfits (with the diet as well) I may decide to go with mirtzapine or a different mood stabalizer.

The problem with Remeron is the weight gain. That thing will make you crave sweets like there's no tomorrow. But everyone reacts differently.

Yes, but at least the side effect isn't metabolically induced, and can be controlled with other agents.

How do you control weight gain on remeron exactly? Wellbutrin? I guess that would be the most obvious answer though the two don't necessarily go well together all the time. But yes you're right its not metabolically induced like antipsychotics. Although even SSRI's are thought to decrease insulin sensitivity.


Btw to the reader saying he'd like to gain weight, then remeron is certainly the best antidepressant to open up your appetite no question. Remeron works wonderfully as an appetite stimulant.

[Yearningforyears]

Holy damn!
With all the recent tolerance issues that has been going on lately, I´ve gotten a bit desperate.
That is the reason I decided to jump back on the aniracetam. All I can say is:"Wow!" the anxiety reducing effects are superb and it also seems to take away depression plus helps with motivation I think.

It´s great to be back on the nootropics. Piracetam mostly made me agitated but this stuff... It´s like a giggly brain fog at first and it quickly lands into a kind of relaxed hyperfocus with a devil may care attitude.
Why on earth did I quit this stuff?
We recently had a lot of snowfall here in my small town, and on my way to work today I (this seems to be a common effect?) started looking around more than usual and saw how beautiful it all was. You know when the snow lies heavy and thick on the spruces, but not covering their branches fully, that creates a very nice contrast..
A very inspiring and vivid experience. Pretty common stuff of course, but I think a lot of memorable moments in life are lost due to our closed minds sometimes. I wonder if this is how the aniractam works. Everything feels detailed and alive in a hard to describe improved way, but at the same time there is also a sensation of serenity. I could be sedated who knows. (or on my way to hypomania...)
Have you had similar effects? It´s like a kind of mental ice starting to melt in my head. Or rather... muting some behaviors associated with anticipatory anxiety... and it doesn´t really feel like they are being muted either. The illusion of enjoying normality perhaps? It´s good stuff :D

The social interaction also felt very laid back and natural at work today. I was more able to talk with people rather than indirectly or directly trying to avoid them (by following the same old built in conversation manual "how to talk to people without letting them get to know you".
I hope there are no tolerance issues with this, although the novelty of it all probably might wear off a bit eventually

Edited by Nicholas, 10 November 2010 - 10:19 PM.

[Logan]

Holy damn!
With all the recent tolerance issues that has been going on lately, I´ve gotten a bit desperate.
That is the reason I decided to jump back on the aniracetam. All I can say is:"Wow!" the anxiety reducing effects are superb and it also seems to take away depression plus helps with motivation I think.

It´s great to be back on the nootropics. Piracetam mostly made me agitated but this stuff... It´s like a giggly brain fog at first and it quickly lands into a kind of relaxed hyperfocus with a devil may care attitude.
Why on earth did I quit this stuff?
We recently had a lot of snowfall here in my small town, and on my way to work today I (this seems to be a common effect?) started looking around more than usual and saw how beautiful it all was. You know when the snow lies heavy and thick on the spruces, but not covering their branches fully, that creates a very nice contrast..
A very inspiring and vivid experience. Pretty common stuff of course, but I think a lot of memorable moments in life are lost due to our closed minds sometimes. I wonder if this is how the aniractam works. Everything feels detailed and alive in a hard to describe improved way, but at the same time there is also a sensation of serenity. I could be sedated who knows. (or on my way to hypomania...)
Have you had similar effects? It´s like a kind of mental ice starting to melt in my head. Or rather... muting some behaviors associated with anticipatory anxiety... and it doesn´t really feel like they are being muted either. The illusion of enjoying normality perhaps? It´s good stuff :D

The social interaction also felt very laid back and natural at work today. I was more able to talk with people rather than indirectly or directly trying to avoid them (by following the same old built in conversation manual "how to talk to people without letting them get to know you".
I hope there are no tolerance issues with this, although the novelty of it all probably might wear off a bit eventually

How many times a day do you take aniracetam?

[Thorsten3]

Holy damn!
With all the recent tolerance issues that has been going on lately, I´ve gotten a bit desperate.
That is the reason I decided to jump back on the aniracetam. All I can say is:"Wow!" the anxiety reducing effects are superb and it also seems to take away depression plus helps with motivation I think.

It´s great to be back on the nootropics. Piracetam mostly made me agitated but this stuff... It´s like a giggly brain fog at first and it quickly lands into a kind of relaxed hyperfocus with a devil may care attitude.
Why on earth did I quit this stuff?
We recently had a lot of snowfall here in my small town, and on my way to work today I (this seems to be a common effect?) started looking around more than usual and saw how beautiful it all was. You know when the snow lies heavy and thick on the spruces, but not covering their branches fully, that creates a very nice contrast..
A very inspiring and vivid experience. Pretty common stuff of course, but I think a lot of memorable moments in life are lost due to our closed minds sometimes. I wonder if this is how the aniractam works. Everything feels detailed and alive in a hard to describe improved way, but at the same time there is also a sensation of serenity. I could be sedated who knows. (or on my way to hypomania...)
Have you had similar effects? It´s like a kind of mental ice starting to melt in my head. Or rather... muting some behaviors associated with anticipatory anxiety... and it doesn´t really feel like they are being muted either. The illusion of enjoying normality perhaps? It´s good stuff :D

The social interaction also felt very laid back and natural at work today. I was more able to talk with people rather than indirectly or directly trying to avoid them (by following the same old built in conversation manual "how to talk to people without letting them get to know you".
I hope there are no tolerance issues with this, although the novelty of it all probably might wear off a bit eventually

Your experience reminds me of the honeymoon period I had with Piracetam. I'm not aware of any long term success stories with aniracetam it eould be interesting to hear some. You seem very well educated when it comes to the potential hypomania that might be looming. Maybe this is more of an issue with Piracetam than it is with Aniracetam? Maybe your experience is in fact the illusion of normality. How we percieve, how think, how we feel. Are we supposed to be enjoying ourselves?

Have you noticed any amazing cognitive benefits?

Edited by Thorsten, 11 November 2010 - 03:13 PM.

[Yearningforyears]

I take a dose in the morning and the some smaller booster doses during the day (around 3-4 hours between every dose).