85 replies to this topic

[testsubject3]

I've been taking piracetam and aniracetam for about a week now and I haven't noticed anything.

What dose and how often for each? Did you take choline (Alpha GPC, CDP Choline, eggs, etc.) with them? Your body weight would also help in determining a more effective dose. The racetams are said to have a bell-shaped effectiveness curve, so you might be either taking too much or too little to reach optimum efficacy.

Both methods you've described to test the efficacy are completely subjective. Math in your head is influenced by a subjective perception of time.

I don't think testing memory recall is possible, subjectively. In order to know what you are able to recall before and after you take nootropics, you'd need a complete catalog of your memory. We all constantly remember things we didn't think we knew, even without nootropics.

There may be a problem in expectation. It's not an exact science, we're throwing darts here. Not to say there's NO science behind it, but there's a serious lack of information that allows us to accurately predict dose->response. There's a ton of research and science behind the drugs, they DO change the brain, it's just difficult for us to predict magnitude and subjective experience. Maybe it won't affect the speed of your working memory, but there are infinite aspects of cognition. Maybe you'll do them more accurately, without mental fatigue, or with larger numbers and more complexity. Or maybe it'll have absolutely no effect on your math skills, perhaps visual acuity, smell, creativity, mood, patience, pitch recognition...

We can't say how nootropics enhance cognition, only that they do in a variety of ways. Kind of like being a mutant in X-Men, maybe we don't get the power we want, maybe we have to learn how to use what we get. This awesome forum and others like it at least let us collectively figure out what works and what doesn't, and why people have different reactions. I know a sub-par response can be discouraging, but I really think it's a matter of finding the right dose or combination of nootropics rather than a question of whether or not they work.

Alright well I usually wake up at 5:30am cst and put 10 tsp of choline bitartrate and 10 tsp of piracetam into a bottle then pour a little water into it and drink. I then take four 750mg capsules of aniracetam, three focus formula pills, and two multivitamins. Around 8:00am cst I take three tsp of choline bitartrate and piracetam, two 750mg of aniracetam, two focus formula pills. Then I take the same dosage again at noon and 4:30 cst. I've been doing this for about a week and I don't feel/see anything different. Most accounts here make this stuff seem like its sent from the heavens but its just not working for me. Seems the only things that ever works( or at least work fast) is illegal or requires a prescription. Only thing I notice is that I think "out loud" a lot more then I normally do in a day.

Edited by testsubject3, 04 May 2011 - 01:00 PM.

[bdoris]

I don't think testing memory recall is possible, subjectively. In order to know what you are able to recall before and after you take nootropics, you'd need a complete catalog of your memory. We all constantly remember things we didn't think we knew, even without nootropics.

We can't say how nootropics enhance cognition, only that they do in a variety of ways. Kind of like being a mutant in X-Men, maybe we don't get the power we want, maybe we have to learn how to use what we get. This awesome forum and others like it at least let us collectively figure out what works and what doesn't, and why people have different reactions. I know a sub-par response can be discouraging, but I really think it's a matter of finding the right dose or combination of nootropics rather than a question of whether or not they work.

Not subjectively by yourself, but you can either be tested, or test yourself objectively.

Autobiographical Memory Interview (AMI)
Benton Visual Retention Test (BVRT-5)
Brief Visuospatial Memory Test—Revised (BVMT-R)
Brown-Peterson Task
Buschke Selective Reminding Test (SRT)
California Verbal Learning Test-II (CVLT-II)
California Verbal Learning Test—Children’s Version (CVLT-C)
Children’s Memory Scale (CMS)
Doors and People Test (DPT)
Hopkins Verbal Learning Test—Revised (HVLT-R)
Recognition Memory Test (RMT)
Rey-Osterrieth Auditory Verbal Learning Test (RAVLT)
Rey Complex Figure Test (ROCF)
Rivermead Behavioural Memory Test—Second Edition (RBMT-II)
Ruff-Light Trail Learning Test (RULIT)
Sentence Repetition Test
Wechsler Memory Scale—Third Edition (WMS-III)
Wide Range Assessment of Memory and Learning—Second Edition (WRAML2)

Lots of tests for different type of memories, for different categories of people, etc. Some have to be administered by a someone else, others can be done by yourself. Some can be found on the internet.

As for your second paragraph, you are totally wrong. We do know how nootropics work - we may not know all the details about a specific reaction or receptor in our brain, but we know certainly enough to make reasonable theories as to how they work - theories that do fit very well into our current knowledge of the brain and can be considered as axioms.

The only exception is the nootropics which weren't particularly studied such as mushroom extracts, plan extracts where no one has bothered pouring money into research to determine which exact molecule is the source of the effects and everything there would be more of an educated guess - even then we can still make reasonable guess by the effects if all the effects fit together.

Someone very well versed into the field would be able to make a reasonable guess on how any nootropics would interact together, whether they would have synergistic properties or antagonistic.

More information as well as explanations of tests can be found in the Compendium of Neuropsychological Tests: Administration Norms and Commentary, 3rd Edition.

Edited by bdoris, 31 May 2011 - 11:01 AM.

[nezxon]

Not subjectively by yourself, but you can either be tested, or test yourself objectively.

I understand there are a variety of objective memory tests. I think I was remarking more on the fact that people claim that their recall hasn't improved while using nootropics but I don't believe they've used any objective test, only relying on their ability to metacognitively analyze what they think they knew before and after.

As for your second paragraph, you are totally wrong. We do know how nootropics work - we may not know all the details about a specific reaction or receptor in our brain, but we know certainly enough to make reasonable theories as to how they work - theories that do fit very well into our current knowledge of the brain and can be considered as axioms.

The only exception is the nootropics which weren't particularly studied such as mushroom extracts, plan extracts where no one has bothered pouring money into research to determine which exact molecule is the source of the effects and everything there would be more of an educated guess - even then we can still make reasonable guess by the effects if all the effects fit together.

Someone very well versed into the field would be able to make a reasonable guess on how any nootropics would interact together, whether they would have synergistic properties or antagonistic.

More information as well as explanations of tests can be found in the Compendium of Neuropsychological Tests: Administration Norms and Commentary, 3rd Edition.

I think the idea that anybody has to make a reasonable guess about interactions is evidence that we don't know how they work. There are definite effects in certain areas, but getting the right dose and combination for any given goal seems to be a mystery. In my view if we understood how nootropics worked we could easily correlate a stack with a result (e.g. Taking Stack X gets a better memory, Stack Y eliminates anxiety.)

I believe there also remains a gap between the chemistry and the cognitive sciences. In addition, there remains the problem of non-response. I've never seen evidence of non-response on a chemical level, but people claim to gain no benefit from many nootropics. The existence of non-responders indicates to me that there are some broad gaps in our understanding. If all the functions of each nootropic were clear, every time someone asked "What about this stack?" we could point them to a web application to calculate exactly what their stack will do.

I think most of us are experimenting here. If we knew exactly how nootropics worked I think much of the discussion on this forum would be unnecessary, including this thread.

[evodude]

And i think not everybody tried all the substances already so they probably vote the item they know best which will color the results.

[manic_racetam]

I've been taking piracetam and aniracetam for about a week now and I haven't noticed anything.

What dose and how often for each? Did you take choline (Alpha GPC, CDP Choline, eggs, etc.) with them? Your body weight would also help in determining a more effective dose. The racetams are said to have a bell-shaped effectiveness curve, so you might be either taking too much or too little to reach optimum efficacy.

Both methods you've described to test the efficacy are completely subjective. Math in your head is influenced by a subjective perception of time.

I don't think testing memory recall is possible, subjectively. In order to know what you are able to recall before and after you take nootropics, you'd need a complete catalog of your memory. We all constantly remember things we didn't think we knew, even without nootropics.

There may be a problem in expectation. It's not an exact science, we're throwing darts here. Not to say there's NO science behind it, but there's a serious lack of information that allows us to accurately predict dose->response. There's a ton of research and science behind the drugs, they DO change the brain, it's just difficult for us to predict magnitude and subjective experience. Maybe it won't affect the speed of your working memory, but there are infinite aspects of cognition. Maybe you'll do them more accurately, without mental fatigue, or with larger numbers and more complexity. Or maybe it'll have absolutely no effect on your math skills, perhaps visual acuity, smell, creativity, mood, patience, pitch recognition...

We can't say how nootropics enhance cognition, only that they do in a variety of ways. Kind of like being a mutant in X-Men, maybe we don't get the power we want, maybe we have to learn how to use what we get. This awesome forum and others like it at least let us collectively figure out what works and what doesn't, and why people have different reactions. I know a sub-par response can be discouraging, but I really think it's a matter of finding the right dose or combination of nootropics rather than a question of whether or not they work.

Alright well I usually wake up at 5:30am cst and put 10 tsp of choline bitartrate and 10 tsp of piracetam into a bottle then pour a little water into it and drink. I then take four 750mg capsules of aniracetam, three focus formula pills, and two multivitamins. Around 8:00am cst I take three tsp of choline bitartrate and piracetam, two 750mg of aniracetam, two focus formula pills. Then I take the same dosage again at noon and 4:30 cst. I've been doing this for about a week and I don't feel/see anything different. Most accounts here make this stuff seem like its sent from the heavens but its just not working for me. Seems the only things that ever works( or at least work fast) is illegal or requires a prescription. Only thing I notice is that I think "out loud" a lot more then I normally do in a day.

Have you started smelling like fish yet from all that choline bitartrate? Also, is your heart-rate slowing down dramatically? Slowing of heart-rate and lowering of blood pressure are side effects of really excessive choline intake, and a fishy body odor will eventually result from doses of choline starting at 10-16g's per day (this is due to excessive excretion of trimethylamine, a metabolite of choline in the body). Check this article for more info but it sounds like you're at about 26+ grams of choline a day. That's really high and totally unnecessary. Check the article but you shouldn't need more than 3.5g's a day.

[unregistered_user]

I remember smelling really fishy and assuming it was from the massive amounts of fish oil I was taking. Now that I think about it, I was way overdoing it on the choline bitartrate.

[mastercowboy]

No Nootropic has met my hopes. My expectations may have been unreasonable. I was imagining / hoping that I would feel much more awake and focused (like caffeine but with better cognitive boosting). I was also hoping it would noticeably improve my memory. I've tried Piracetam, aniracetam, alcar, alpha-gpc, lecithin, methylene blue, bacopa, DMAE, huperzine-A, nicotine, caffeine.

Piracetam had a strong negative effect initially, and after much experimenting it had seemed to have some small positive effect (which could have been placebo).
Aniracetam made me have trouble with double vision, and didn't seem to help.
ALCAR gives a noticable but very mild increase.
Alpha-gpc did nothing noticable.
Lecithin did nothing noticable.
DMAE gives me a small but noticable energy boost.
MB gives a small increase in focus but nothing like nicotine.
Bacopa works great for anti-anxiety, not sure about memory effects even after 4 months of use.
Huperzine-A had no noticable effect and I don't feel comfortable taking it long term.
Nicotine has an effect on motivation, but it has tolerance, addiction, and possible health issues (increased BP, negative vascular effects)
Caffeine is my favorite, I can definitely feeeeel it.

To test memory effects I really should have done some standard before and after tests. Even that is difficult because just practicing Dual-n-back gives you a higher score.

I guess I am just disappointed overall.

I feel the same way.Only caffeine works always...others were just sugar pills for me...so much money in garbage pills!!

[Hope47]

Modafinil gives me huge rush of motivation but,I develop rashes on it.

[DamnedOwl]

I went with ALCAR in order to be faithful to the request for the single best all-rounder, since though subtle it does seem to improve my cognition quite broadly.

That said, the stars of the show are probably modafinil, caffeine, and sulbutiamine, with an honourable mention going to melatonin from the support-cast.

New kids on my block are uridine and high dose fish oil for which, although I've only been taking for about a month and am still tweaking the doses, the signs are nevertheless very positive and I think they're going to prove to be central to my stack in the future.

Since piracetam is the most popular in the vote, and I do take it, then perhaps I ought to mention it. I've taken it for 18 months now, and I think it does have a positive effect, but it's subtle. Almost too subtle such that I perhaps wouldn't miss not taking it, but not quite. Then again, I only take 2g per (week)day with weekends off, and I know that many would say this is a low dose so perhaps I ought to try taking much higher doses for a week or so just to gauge whether there's any difference. Even if nothing else, I'd be interested to see whether there is a bell-shaped curve to my responses at the varying doses as many others have already attested to with regards to piracetam.

[DamnedOwl]

Modafinil gives me huge rush of motivation but,I develop rashes on it.

Seriously, you should really be careful about that! There were two cases of suspected Stevens-Johnson syndrome during a trial of modafinil as a treatment for ADHD a few years back.

[Atropy]

DLPA on its own is the best I've tried so far.Plus its cheap.

[DamnedOwl]

DLPA on its own is the best I've tried so far.Plus its cheap.

Interesting. What doses? Do you stack it with anything?

[Atropy]

DLPA 500mg x 2 per day
Tryptophan 1000mg x1 day.(Sleep)

Been on it for almost 2 months.

Dlpa helps alot with motivation overall and helped me to be more social.However,its effects dwindle off a little after the first few weeks.Side effects might be a little bit of irritability.That went away after lowering the dosage of my anti-depressant.Its still worth it tho,at least in my case.

I have recently started piracetam too but I'm only a week into that.

[andrea23]

Acetylcarnitine: helps a lot for asteny, tiredness and mental fog

[DamnedOwl]

DLPA 500mg x 2 per day
Tryptophan 1000mg x1 day.(Sleep)

Been on it for almost 2 months.

Dlpa helps alot with motivation overall and helped me to be more social.However,its effects dwindle off a little after the first few weeks.Side effects might be a little bit of irritability.That went away after lowering the dosage of my anti-depressant.Its still worth it tho,at least in my case.

I have recently started piracetam too but I'm only a week into that.

I took DLPA for a short while last year. I felt fabulous the day after I first took it, but I was never able to repeat that experience, and instead it just made me sleepy which is why I stopped taking it.

I started taking Tyrosine instead (another dopamine pre-cursor) and found that to be both stable and beneficial (increased motivation) at 500mg twice a day. I took huge doses for a while once (3g twice a day) because I needed something to take the place of modafinil after I'd ran out, and although beneficial for a while, I started to experience the irritability you mention above, and so dropped it as soon as I re-stocked on modafinil.

[empedocles]

my best results have been Piracetam + centrophenoxine or Aniracetam alone - noopept a close third. I also agree that asking for the "one" nootropic substance is somewhat doomed to failure, plus some of the substances listed cannot be fairly categorised as nootropic agents (by the old definition) but rather cognitive enhancers.

[jly1986]

Piracetam and aniracetam helped me a lot. Oxiracetam not so much. I'm currently trying Noopept + Lucidril, and as long as I don't take mega doses (to avoid the adverse effects), they seem fair to midland. Oddly, it seems nothing has beat piracetam so far, despite all the claims the others are 10x to 1000x more potent. Makes me wonder if those numbers are just marketing gimmicks to keep the consumer and research funding flowing.

[Ukko]

Theanine

[Atropy]

Theanine

Doesn't Theanine make you tired?

[Ukko]

Theanine

Doesn't Theanine make you tired?

Not really. I think that I am ACH dominant. Too brainy to begin with. Actually, let me re-do the list of best noots...in the order of preference:

1) Physical exercise...both aerobic and gym

2) Qi Gong...done properly in the morning

3) Meditation...in the evening. Just as hard as say weightlifting.

4) L-Theanine (sometimes Picamilon instead)

5) This specific form of phosphatidylserine....like 3X300mg a day...http://www.hankintatukku.fi/en/products/?-fosfoser-memory-&product=18

6) Noopept. Trying it currently. Not 100% convinced yet.

7) For energy...DMAE+sulbutiamine+NADH ...whooaaah

[oneshot2shots]

Has to be aniracetam. 

[David_goldenlife]

I think the best nootropic is caffeine. My reasons are: 

-Cheap 

-Effective 

-If properly cycled, it can be tremendously useful. Cycling course ... We all know that caffeine tends to decrease cerebral blood flow.

[vtrader]

The best nootropic, genetics. I have tried most of the mainstream supplements, until NZT is made real, I'll stick with the basics :

A good multi, protein, omega, water ,exercise, meditation, brain training and positive visulisation.

 

I have given up trying to be the best, smartest, most intelligent, most successful as I can, it is just added too much stress and anxiety.

 

I think most of my results with nooptropics have either been placebo, one hit wonders or too subtle to make the cost worth it.

[David_goldenlife]

vtrader, Have you tried with intermittent fasting? Seriously, in the past, no nootropic worked for me. I tried intermittent fasting and all change,  some people (like me) suffer from orexin level falling when their brain is sabotaged by a certain amount of glucose.

[jroseland]

Two questions I get A LOT from people who are new to Biohacking and haven't yet tried smart drugs is:

Which smart drug supplements actually work and have science behind them?

Which Nootropic should I get start with?

 

My answer to both questions is the same: Piracetam

[medicineman]

Caffeine
Nicotine pastilles
Selegeline

[Healthy Tony]

Semax

Selank

Selegeline

Stablon

 

Modafinil, isn't terrible either, but not the best 'all-purpose' nootropic. Anyone else find it amusing that those all start with 'S'? :P

[AOLministrator]

Just to note: I voted Methylphenidate because I could neither find Cocaine nor Subutex in the list!

[Plasticperson]

methylphenidate piracetam combo..dear god its good... but not realistic 

[bzyb]

methylphenidate piracetam combo..dear god its good... but not realistic 

whats wrong with the combo? I've tried concerta and it really helped me study. I think that stack is better than adderall which I believe to be more amphetamine than anything else.  Ciltep is good but dont have much time to take it as most of my day to day stuff revolves being around people and not able to study a long time on my own.  

 

As for OP, I would say noopept (not listed) has the most lasting effect for me, whereas many others felt placebo like, or only works with a stack of many other things.