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What is your favorite excuse for forgoing indefinite life extension?


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#1 brokenportal

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 01:31 AM


What is your favorite excuse for forgoing indefinite life extension?

List more and Ill edit them in to this list.

If you can link me to a discussion where the person is actively trying to defend one of these excuses the please link to that too.

The first 8 here are covered in the imminst.org/faq


-List of Objections-

1. There is no reason to want to live indefinitely.

2. Death is inevitable.

3. It is stupid to think that we would want to become increasingly frail and not be able to die.

4. Life will get boring.

5. Creating indefinite life extension is not possible.

6. Only the rich would get indefinite life extension.

7. Life extension will cause an over population crisis.

8. Keeping all of those old people around will ruin our economies.

9. It is not natural.

10. Then murderers and horrible people will get to live indefinitely.

11. It is irresponsible for us to try to play god.

12. The world would be overrun with junk yards and landfills.

13. There wouldn’t be enough rooms in hospitals for everybody to get the life extension therapies.

14. We wouldn’t want to see our friends and families die.

15. We cant see into the past so what is the point?

16. We will never invent time machines to go into the past so what is the point?

17. Our noses and ears would get too big and so we wouldn’t want indefinite life extension.

18. Invisible god friends we made up don’t say that we should do this.

19. If we do this it is part of the apocalypse.

20. If we don’t die we will miss out on the serenity and experience of being in a grave yard.

21. Our health insurance policies set us up for funerals and we can’t let that go to waste.

22. Life works like a book, you have to have a beginning and an end or you can’t have a good life.

23. There are spiders, crocodiles, smelly things, ugly dogs and all kinds of things we don’t want to have to see for so long.

24. Our stuff would keep wearing out and we would have to keep getting new stuff, clothes, house, hat, etc…

25. We would be stuck hearing the same songs and there would be reruns for so long and who wants to be around for that?

26. The sun will eventually explode anyways so why try?

27. We could get tortured or something so why would we want to allow that chance?

28. You would owe bills forever and your debt collectors would never stop calling.

29. You would have to stand in line so many more times, and so many more of your pens would run out of ink.

30. There are fat and dumb people and so why would we want to live around people like that?

They are too lazy to respond to the need to stop their life from being taken away. In other words, are they so irresponsible that they make excuses so they wont have to do anything about it.


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Edited by brokenportal, 21 October 2011 - 11:45 PM.

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#2 Marios Kyriazis

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 07:01 PM

I thought of one but got so interested in coming up with arguments answering all the above excuses, that I forgot what it was!
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#3 Elus

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:57 AM

My favorite one is about it not being natural.

Since when has anything humans have done or accomplished ever been considered natural? Screw natural, we'll do as we damn well please.
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#4 brokenportal

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 09:46 PM

Right, that reminds me of the Kurweil quote, "Why should humans be defining themselves by their limitations rather than their ability to supersede them?"

If we could not more directly control the elements as we do then we would just be another form of monkey. Just as surely as the ant can not help build the mound, the bee the honey comb, the bird the nest, so can we not help but innovate everything that is available to us. We couldnt help it if we tried, that is what humans do, it is natural that humans innovate.
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#5 Hoppimike

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 11:01 AM

Yeah people come up with so many! The most common I hear are about getting bored and being old forever lol

The former.. it depends what you're doing in life I think.. maybe o.O

The latter... is kind of missing the point!! :)
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#6 brokenportal

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 08:04 PM

Yeah people come up with so many! The most common I hear are about getting bored and being old forever lol

The former.. it depends what you're doing in life I think.. maybe o.O

The latter... is kind of missing the point!! :)



If you want to help us collect more then please do. We could use a few people to put a little focus on this and build this list up. You could for example go in to some of the forums in our internet networking team (in the projects and teams section) and try to stir up some opposition. You might even ask them, "please list as many reasons for not wanting this as you can".

I encountered another of the oft said "overpopulation!" arguments the other day. I was at my local indefinite life extension chapter meeting down in a meeting room at the public library the other day and this guy I know a little bit walked past the open door. I asked him if he wanted to join us and told him it was about indefinite life extension. He had to run because he was meeting up with somebody outside. So he was rushed, he had from what I know never really thought about this before, and in that moment he spewed out, with a smirk, "but there will be over population." as if to say, "gotcha dummy". How does that come so readily to these people? Even on the spot and under pressure... Its almost as though many people have, in their coming to terms with their own mortalities, have come up with the notion that part of the reason it is ok is because they want to make room for more people. Other wise Im not sure what else could explain how it could be so readily on the tips of so many peoples tongues.

#7 Arcanyn

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 12:37 PM

Of course, if people really believed the 'overpopulation' argument, they'd be opposed to antibiotics, and every other medical advance that increases life expectancy, on the same grounds.
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#8 Maosef

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Posted 27 November 2010 - 11:02 PM

Hmm, Im heavily in support of indefinite life extension but for the point of being open minded and secular towards it to the effect of maintaining my rational I often ponder in the liabilities of such technology.

My main concern for it is the effect it could have on society, generally advanced technology trickles down through through the different social classes determined by wealth. Now if this technology which I believe will be coupled with advanced human cognitive capabilities sets in a stone a permanent social structure, class would be completely hereditary, and by extension of that so would power and ability. In a sense cultural social mobility will be a dinosaur.

That and robots stealing humanitys flame in a promethean manner are my biggest fears. However im relatively optomistic that like-minded individuals developing the technology are conscious of the same. However this is a completely subjective standpoint, others might adhere to the antithesis; argue that a permanent heirarchy based and structured on ability would be practical and efficient; or/and that artificial minds would be best suited for the cognitive intensive work, i.e philosophy

Again I acknowledge my subjective standpoint and that my image of dystopian society is an exaggeration on the petite negatives of an otherwise brilliant society. However I choose to characterise a good society by(part of) an abundance of oppurtunity and human self-determinitation, relative to my concerns.

To all other excuses, as bad as creationism.
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#9 Guest_Eidnoga_*

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 10:26 PM

It is my experience that the underlying motivation in most, if not all, those who choose to forgo attempts at life extension is the avoidance of personal responsibility for their own lives. The realization that one's continued survival is in one's own hands is a great burden. It is not surprising that most people wish to avoid acknowledging this.

#10 brokenportal

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 11:19 PM

It is my experience that the underlying motivation in most, if not all, those who choose to forgo attempts at life extension is the avoidance of personal responsibility for their own lives. The realization that one's continued survival is in one's own hands is a great burden. It is not surprising that most people wish to avoid acknowledging this.


You think that many people are too irresponsible to accept the tasks that come along with sustaining their own lives and so they put it off, and procrastinate, and make excuses? You dont think that many people have enough sensibility and wherewithal to understand that their life is more important than gaining immediate qualm to a feeling of anxiety in facing the mountainous task of removing the obstacles that are preventing them from remaining alive? An analogy might be that a person is lost in the desert with a few days worth of food and water. Rather than work to escape, your saying that you think most people are more content to put their situation out of their minds and rather make what they can out of the time they have left, like say making a nice game involving rocks and scraping some of their thoughts on to some cliff faces with a stick?


By the way all, this topic is for collecting good excuses that we come across like this, but remember also that we have a guide for getting through to people at: http://www.imminst.o...the-uninformed/

#11 Guest_Eidnoga_*

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 02:16 AM

It is my experience that the underlying motivation in most, if not all, those who choose to forgo attempts at life extension is the avoidance of personal responsibility for their own lives. The realization that one's continued survival is in one's own hands is a great burden. It is not surprising that most people wish to avoid acknowledging this.


You think that many people are too irresponsible to accept the tasks that come along with sustaining their own lives and so they put it off, and procrastinate, and make excuses? You dont think that many people have enough sensibility and wherewithal to understand that their life is more important than gaining immediate qualm to a feeling of anxiety in facing the mountainous task of removing the obstacles that are preventing them from remaining alive? An analogy might be that a person is lost in the desert with a few days worth of food and water. Rather than work to escape, your saying that you think most people are more content to put their situation out of their minds and rather make what they can out of the time they have left, like say making a nice game involving rocks and scraping some of their thoughts on to some cliff faces with a stick?


By the way all, this topic is for collecting good excuses that we come across like this, but remember also that we have a guide for getting through to people at: http://www.imminst.o...the-uninformed/


In short, yes. But I think there are key differences between being lost in the desert with limited food/water and being "lost" in ordinary Western life. It's a lot easier not to realize that your life is in your hands when there are supermarkets around, a healthcare system in place, the news dispensing health advice periodically (and setting a norm for when some health issue is worth worrying about).

#12 brokenportal

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 03:19 AM

I used to have a nice list of just all the dumbest sorts of excuses. I mean, some of these are almost acceptable, but there are many that are just wacky. I dont have that list any more though and Im looking to create another one. Can you please list here some of the lamest excuses that youve heard? If you can, go out and ask some new people in the next few weeks here and list those here.

I can imagine the spirit of them, like these:

  • The world would be overrun with junk yards and landfills.
  • There wouldn’t be enough rooms in hospitals for everybody to get the life extension therapies.
  • We cant see into the past so what is the point?
  • We will never invent time machines to go into the past so what is the point?
  • Our noses and ears would get too big and so we wouldn’t want indefinite life extension.
  • Invisible god friends we made up don’t say that we should do this.
  • If we do this it is part of the apocalypse.
  • If we don’t die we will miss out on the serenity and experience of being in a grave yard.
  • Our health insurance policies set us up for funerals and we cant let that go to waste.
  • Life works like a book, you have to have a beginning and an end or you cant have a good life.
  • There are spiders, crocodiles, smelly things, ugly dogs and all kinds of things we don’t want to have to see for so long.
  • Our stuff would keep wearing out and we would have to keep getting new stuff, clothes, house, hat, etc…
  • We would be stuck hearing the same songs and there would be reruns for so long and who wants to be around for that?
  • The sun will eventually explode anyways so why try?
  • We could get tortured or something so why would we want to allow that chance?
  • You would owe bills forever and your debt collectors would never stop calling.
  • You would have to stand in line so many more times, and so many more of your pens would run out of ink.
  • There are fat and dumb people and so why would we want to live around people like that?


But this list is going to be used in outreach I work with and I want to be able to say that the list is all actual things that people actually said that I can say with certainty so that they cant poo poo the state of these miserable sorts of excuses away.




In short, yes. But I think there are key differences between being lost in the desert with limited food/water and being "lost" in ordinary Western life. It's a lot easier not to realize that your life is in your hands when there are supermarkets around, a healthcare system in place, the news dispensing health advice periodically (and setting a norm for when some health issue is worth worrying about).


Mmm, well, there are differences in any analogy, its the similarities that are the point of them. I could be wrong but I think that this is beginning to border into perverted analogy straw man fallacy.

I mean, your right, but I didnt exclude the reality that the person in the desert would be "lost" in that same way in this hypothetical.

In the end, its not hard for a person to step back and see that the are going to die and they need to put down the tiddly winks and face the dragon.

#13 brokenportal

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 08:37 PM

I heard another good excuse of death is the aim because the future would be boring and we would run out of things to do. I asked him when options like say, playing basketball on an intergalactic starship while contemplating whether or not to go to the fully sumbersible virtual reality machine later might get boring.

#14 brokenportal

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 09:28 PM

I asked another just now, quote:

Eric: So you want to live indefinitely right?

other: hell no lol
other: y wouldi wanna do that?

Eric: why not?

other: have u looked around this place is goin to complete hell

Eric: so,
Eric: you think that death is the best solution to challenges?

other: nah but i honestly don't wanna live longer htan i have to idw see the world go down nemroe than it has
other: besides if i die i can be with the ones that love me

#15 MentalParadox

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 10:33 PM

I asked another just now, quote:

Eric: So you want to live indefinitely right?

other: hell no lol
other: y wouldi wanna do that?

Eric: why not?

other: have u looked around this place is goin to complete hell

Eric: so,
Eric: you think that death is the best solution to challenges?

other: nah but i honestly don't wanna live longer htan i have to idw see the world go down nemroe than it has
other: besides if i die i can be with the ones that love me


Sad, just sad. The problem I have when talking to people about this, is that the word "immortality" sounds plain childish and naïve. There's no way to translate "indefinite life extension" in my language. =p The moment people see I'm on this site or reading up on it, they think I'm on some site for gaming nerds or religious nutcases. They just never even considered living indefinitely as a remote possibility. Let alone become active to support the cause.
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#16 brokenportal

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 11:47 PM

What about "onbepaalde levensduur verlenging"? There has to be a word for perpetual, indefinite, unlimited...

We have encountered the thick bias against the word immortality in a serious context too, and so recently we have undergone the addition of a new main name to our organization. We are now Longecity. You can tell people about "Longecity - Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans" We are also working to brand the word Longecity to mean indefinite life extension, so you could even try that out. Tell them its about "Longecity" and when they ask what it is then explain perpetual, indefinite, unlimited lifespans in your language. Its like longevity but taken to another level.

#17 jdgauchat

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 12:51 AM

In short, yes. But I think there are key differences between being lost in the desert with limited food/water and being "lost" in ordinary Western life. It's a lot easier not to realize that your life is in your hands when there are supermarkets around, a healthcare system in place, the news dispensing health advice periodically (and setting a norm for when some health issue is worth worrying about).


And society, social institutions (specially religious institutions) telling you all the time, every day, every minute, that you HAVE to die in the desert.

JD

Edited by jdkasinsky, 20 February 2011 - 12:51 AM.

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#18 jdgauchat

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 01:02 AM

I heard another good excuse of death is the aim because the future would be boring and we would run out of things to do. I asked him when options like say, playing basketball on an intergalactic starship while contemplating whether or not to go to the fully sumbersible virtual reality machine later might get boring.


It's part of the fantasy world proposed by society. They tell you that life is a closed cycle. Of course, that is just a lie. Life is composed by cycles that repeat itself all the time, and the variety of effects produced by material interaction (and of course our own creativity) make that cycles different and attractive every time. People imagine themselves 50 years later and they just see a man who has nothing else to do in life, because everything that he was programmed to do have been done (the false cycle is complete). If they don't have to study anymore, if they don't have to raise kids anymore, if they don't have to work anymore, they will get bored. Of course, in the real world they don't HAVE to stop doing anything, and of course, real life continue exactly like it was before, so enjoyable (or not) as always (or even more). Be bored or not doesn't depend on how long you live.

JD
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#19 brokenportal

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 06:55 AM

I was trying to remember this other I recently heard and it finally came to me earlier. The other day this guy told me one I hadnt heard in a while, he said that he wouldnt want to live indefinitely because he would forget all his really old memories and so then it wouldnt be worth it to him. He wouldnt be able to remember the "him's" he used to be. The notion that that occured to him made it a slam dunk decision for him that he wouldnt want indefinite life extension.

I try a variety of tactics on people, most cause people to dig deeper into the devils advocate side of the subject thereby validating that reasoning for them more and more. The best tactics that I know of are the ones we outline in guide to getting through to the skeptics, fence sitters, uninformed and pro aging trancists. Those include ways to inform and influence people with out discussing their objections head on. There are some cases where discussing them head on is the most effective though and we go over that too.

In this case I was testing new freestyle methods out out to practice things. I tried a loose version of the socratic method that was bordering to much on sarcasm. I told him things like, "Well, I know what you mean, I mean for example if I couldnt remember all of the cool things that I did when I was say, 6 or 8, all the touchdowns I made, all the games I played and clever things I did, the interesting perspectives that made me say, "aha!" then I would just feel like X'ing myself out right now too." Then I told him that its not like they will invent ways to enhance and store and improve memory either. I dont think it worked though. It might have gotten him thinking, but it probably caused his devils advocate to engrain the opposite deeper with in him. I cant be sure on that method.




On another note, I often find this page for topics when searching for topics in google. How do we get to this from the forum? I dont see a way.

http://www.longecity...&do=who&t=44642

#20 jdgauchat

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 07:42 AM

I was trying to remember this other I recently heard and it finally came to me earlier. The other day this guy told me one I hadnt heard in a while, he said that he wouldnt want to live indefinitely because he would forget all his really old memories and so then it wouldnt be worth it to him. He wouldnt be able to remember the "him's" he used to be. The notion that that occured to him made it a slam dunk decision for him that he wouldnt want indefinite life extension.


I always confront people directly, but is so weird to find myself trying to convince people to not let themselves die. I feel stupid all the time. There is no sense in dead, dead is wrong, most of the people don't want to die, everybody knows that, so why do I have to convince them to fight against dead? It's like living in a world of zombies... (sorry for the bad analogy but when someone ask me: "why do you want to live forever?" the answer in my mind is an skeptical: "do I really have to answer that???!!!")

JD
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#21 brokenportal

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Posted 23 February 2011 - 03:37 AM

I got another of these answers, quote, "Dont you want eternity? Why would you want eternity in this body?" Of course, we can see thats the beginning of the supernatural faith arguement but I pressed on with reasons why you would want this body.

The reasoning is because there are a lot of things to do I explained to him, and part of the problem why a lot of people dont realize how many things there are to do is because they dont think of it for any of a variety of reasons like: they dont have time, the concepts havent been presented to them very much, they think they already know the answer, people tell them not to think about that kind of stuff, and most importantly is that society as a rule isnt imbued very well with an understanding of fallacy. My standard answer is then to talk about how to help remedy this problem I wrote a list of what I call "existences big picture big 8 categories and standalone opportunities", or "the big 8" for short, and then I go over it.

Well, of course, as expected, the answer was still that supernatural faith is best. He came back to an insinuation to it by again saying, "but there is a much better eternity than that." So I said, "Oh so then I take it your making the jesus friend in the sky that whisks you away to a magical land in the clouds when you die argument?"

He said yes, I said Im sorry to hear that and walked away.

Now, I many times walk away as a strategy to try to lend authority to what Im saying. I dont want to beg him to validate what Im saying, I wanted to leave him with the information and the chance for it to sink in. However, some of the best mental progress I have made in my life has been through debating religion mainly (and the endless related digressions that spring from it). I recommend it. If your finding those types that will tell you after a few short minutes, "lets just agree to disagree", then keep looking until you find a few that are willing to go through rounds. Its priceless exercise for your critical thinking skills. Debate until it hurts, hone, perfect, get better at spotting out your own and their fallacies, then engage, engage, engage. Do it until your brain hurts. No pain no gain, its the same with thinking.

#22 Destiny's Equation

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 03:26 AM

7. We will over populate.


People who assume that longer lifespans will lead to overpopulation are not looking at the entire picture. Can't compare Homo Evolutis' thought processes to the way people think today...apples and oranges!

Accelerate brain function to the extreme and ancient impulses such as excessive breeding will practically disappear.

I would even go as far as to say that crime, greed, and human shortsightedness in general will be mostly a thing of the past. What we call "human evil" is unfavorable gene expression, nothing more. (I say "mostly" because those who are stubborn and afraid of change will be left behind.)

If we all survive to see it happen, the singularity will save planet earth.
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#23 The Immortalist

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 01:29 PM

My favorite one is about it not being natural.

Since when has anything humans have done or accomplished ever been considered natural? Screw natural, we'll do as we damn well please.


That reminds me of a quote I once heard from somewhere

"We are products of nature so then everything we produce is a product of nature" :cool:

#24 brokenportal

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 11:11 PM

I found another good topic on this here: http://www.longecity...716#entry229716

But I would rather not merge the two topics. I have need to link to this one and adjust it over time. I will probably though, however, copy paste the answers from that other topic into this topic too.

I dont know when though. If somebody else wants to compile a new master copy for me to paste into this topic then please go ahead and then post it here and Ill consider pasting it in.

#25 brokenportal

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 11:17 PM

There is another update to interpolate in the mean time. Im saving the old list here and pasting the new one in.


What is your favorite excuse for forgoing indefinite life extension?

List more and Ill edit them in to this list.

If you can link me to a discussion where the person is actively trying to defend one of these excuses the please link to that too.

The first 8 here are covered in the imminst.org/faq

1. Why would you want to live forever?

2. Death inevitable.

3. Why would I want to live a long time as an old/frail person?

4. Life will get boring.

5. Creating indefinite life extension is not possible.

6. Only the rich will get indefinite life extension.

7. We will over populate.

8. It will ruin our economies to keep all those old people around.

9. Its not natural.

10. Then murderers and horrible people will get to live indefinitely.

11. It is irresponsible for us to try to play god.

12. It will never work, science and human innovation, creativity and ingenuity can not ever pull off such a ridiculous thing.




They are too lazy to respond to the need to stop their life from being taken away. In other words they are so irresponsible that they make excuses so they wont have to do anything about it.


Posted Image



#26 Droplet

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 06:01 AM

My favorite one is about it not being natural.

Since when has anything humans have done or accomplished ever been considered natural? Screw natural, we'll do as we damn well please.

I stand and applaud you for this one! :-D

One of my faves besides the above is "without old people dying, old ideas will just stay. We need young people for fresh ideas and for old people despite their wisdom to just die." Errr...really?

#27 brokenportal

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 12:27 AM

In topic 143 at this link, I have drawn out this excuse: "Just think of the cars on the road!!! It would be unworkable."

At Christmas time I commented to my grandmother that one my great aunts on the other side of the family died this last summer at the age of 104. My grandma scoffed saying something to the effect of, "I wouldnt want to live that long, no way, not me. Not in this economy."

"This" economy has better food, safer food, cleaner air, higher standards of living, really nice affordable motor homes of which they have had a few, nicer things all around like tv, phone, etc.. We have way better health care, more things to do, more prospects to look forward to, etc. etc. etc.

John Mccain looks like the people my grandma knows and says the things that sound like what they all say. Barrack Obama doesnt. So basically, my grandmother would rather die than have to see Barrack Obama on tv. It seems that is basically what she is saying.

#28 Droplet

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 08:28 AM

In topic 143 at this link, I have drawn out this excuse: "Just think of the cars on the road!!! It would be unworkable."

At Christmas time I commented to my grandmother that one my great aunts on the other side of the family died this last summer at the age of 104. My grandma scoffed saying something to the effect of, "I wouldnt want to live that long, no way, not me. Not in this economy."

"This" economy has better food, safer food, cleaner air, higher standards of living, really nice affordable motor homes of which they have had a few, nicer things all around like tv, phone, etc.. We have way better health care, more things to do, more prospects to look forward to, etc. etc. etc.

John Mccain looks like the people my grandma knows and says the things that sound like what they all say. Barrack Obama doesnt. So basically, my grandmother would rather die than have to see Barrack Obama on tv. It seems that is basically what she is saying.

Oh my God are you sure we don't share a branch from a common family tree? :laugh: I have a relative just like this and he's not even old! Everytime I mention life extension and/or anything remotely transhumanist I'm met with "I don't want to live too long. Technology will make this world Hell." Both him and his wife are convinced that technology will turn the world into an unbearable dystopia from which the best escape is death. I find it weird, as they are both atheists yet would choose deletion over living long and healthy. They are also concerned about the economy and powerful governments using technology for all sorts of evil.

I did convince them of the error of one of their opinions. He said that he wishes he was living when there wasn't technology and that life was a lot better a few decades/a century ago. I told him that if he really wants a world with worse medical care, poor hygiene and a lot lower life expectancy then he's getting in the time machine alone. He did realise when I mentioned medical advances that it actually would be a pretty shit idea. :) He has one of the wonderful genetic turds floating in our gene pool and has ankylosing spondylitis. I find it odd that he would be against reversing things associated with aging, as it could potentially help him especially given his condition will eventually wreck his memory and body as he ages but bit quicker than those without the condition.

Edited by Droplet, 07 January 2012 - 08:30 AM.


#29 brokenportal

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Posted 21 January 2012 - 10:02 PM

Maybe we do all mostly trace back to a common tribe that naturally selected for forward thinking traits.

Yesterday somebody told me that death was alright because, quote, "that is what makes us all so colorful & diverse".

#30 Mind

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Posted 21 January 2012 - 10:42 PM

My main "objection" to indefinite lifespans, or should I say concern, is the existential threat from the technologies we are developing. As many commentators like Kurzweil have stated, there is both great promise and great peril in all the powerful new technology that comes with achieving indefinite lifespans. Of course, we have to take the chance because the alternative is guaranteed death/oblivion. My hope is that the human condition... the human psyche....our social ethic.... will evolve with the new technology to ensure a safer passage into the future.

By the way Eric, good job building this discussion and keeping the list!




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