57 replies to this topic

[justwalkingaround]

No, I did some research, and since the licorice root extract worked, i stuck with it. I believe it works on the aldosterone system, so get your doctor's advice just in case there may be some deleterious effect.

But at my dosage, I dont seem to notice anything--except maybe.....and i mean maybe.........my facial hair doesnt grow as fast. But i dont know how that could possibly be.

[hamishm00]

Check this study out below.

My anecdotal account: I have also noticed the effect that was recorded in the rat study at night when I supplement high dose melatonin - I notice a massive increase in bladder volume before the need to void arises (approximately 40% increase). For example, I notice that the bladder barely feels full at 600ml during melatonin dosing (and I have had bladder volumes as high as 900ml to 1 litre without a major urge issue when sleeping), whereas during the day without supplemental melatonin in the system the bladder volume at where the need to void arises will be significantly lower, with first urge to void being triggered at 400ml and "extreme" urge to void at approximately 600ml-700ml. I have NEVER woken up during the night to urinate in the past 10 years. I have been supplementing melatonin for the past 10 years. Go figure. Nightly bladder volumes of this magnitude may result in chronic bladder distension. Something to be wary of.

Melatonin increases bladder capacity via GABAergic system and decreases urine volume in rats.
MedLine Citation: PMID: 20488476
Abstract/OtherAbstract:

PURPOSE: Impaired melatonin production is involved in disruption of the normal circadian pattern of sleep, which leads to nocturia in older adults. Melatonin improves nocturia. We hypothesized that melatonin could alleviate urinary frequency by suppressing the brain micturition center. We investigated the central contribution of melatonin to bladder function and urine volume. MATERIALS AND METHODS: Cystometry was done in conscious female Sprague-Dawley rats (Japan SLC, Hamamatsu, Japan). We examined the effect of melatonin alone (4.3 x 10(-1) to 4.3 x 10 pmol intracerebroventricularly) or with the gamma-aminobutyric acid(A) antagonist bicuculline (5.0 x 10(-5) mg/kg intravenously) on bladder function. The influence of melatonin (4.3 x 10 pmol intracerebroventricularly) on urine volume was investigated in water loaded rats. Blood samples were collected to determine antidiuretic hormone, atrial natriuretic peptide and brain natriuretic peptide 4 hours after melatonin administration. RESULTS: Melatonin significantly increased bladder capacity dose dependently by 27.0%, 40.8% and 63.5% at 4.3 x 10(-1), 4.3 and 4.3 x 10 pmol, respectively, but had no significant effect on bladder contraction pressure. Bicuculline inhibited the melatonin induced increases in bladder capacity. Melatonin decreased urine volume in water loaded rats but plasma antidiuretic hormone, atrial natriuretic peptide and bladder contraction pressure were not changed. CONCLUSIONS: Results suggest that melatonin increases bladder capacity via gamma-aminobutyric acid(A) receptor in the brain and decreases urine volume. Thus, melatonin could be beneficial for nocturia via a central nervous system effect.

[tornpie]

I had a problem of having to urinate frequently during the night. It was caused by obstructive sleep apnea. Sometimes my alarm would be going off and I was dreaming alternating between beating the shit out of the snooze and running all over creation filling up whatever containers I could find until they would overflow.

Do you wake up sweaty? Often with a headache and sore throat? Have hypertension? There are some more symptoms, but you usually don't really know until you have a bedfellow sleeping with you on a consistent basis.

[tlm884]

I agree with everyone else see a doctor before you make a self diagnosis. I was experiencing the same problems and it turned out it was a kidney stone. They gave me some Flomax which helped with the peeing all night long and it helped pass the stone.

[calengineering]

An update on my condition:

I believe that it's caffeine that makes me wake up to pee at night (usually once, sometimes twice). I started drinking coffee or tea in the mornings several months ago and forgot this could be a major contributing factor. It has always seemed to odd to me that some caffeine in the morning could affect me more than 16 hours later when I go to sleep. But after having done some logs to isolate the cause from among other suspects (eg drinking fluids at night, supplementation of AcetylCholine), I see that caffeine usually wakes me up to pee regardless of any other factors.

Drinking fluids after 8 or so also is probably the second major contributing factor. However, If I have a cup of coffee but not drink anything after 8 and empty the bladder before I go to bed, I will still have to wake up to pee, and it is usually a pathetically small amount.

One added complexity is that I'm a skinny guy and might have a small bladder to begin with.

Also, I've heard that you can condition your mind to alert you only when your bladder is more full by training yourself to use the restroom only after certain periods of the day. It's called bladder training and more commonly done during the day. For nighttime occurrences, you might try to go back to bed and avoid the restroom for one or two nights. Your mind will eventually eliminate these unnecessary triggers. This is only if you're being woken up by a very small volume of urine. I might try this in the next few days.


Thanks for everyone's input. Cheers to good health and sleep.

Edited by calengineering, 04 March 2011 - 10:58 PM.

[calengineering]

In my earlier post I concluded that caffeine (from coffee or tea) was a contributing factor to my nighttime urination even when taken in the morning. After monitoring myself and avoiding caffeine completely for another week, I am suspecting that the problem might be something else completely different. In doing some research online, I found that apparently many people misidentify disturbances that disrupt their sleep, such as nighttime urination. Quite obviously, it's sometimes hard to tell what is waking you up, especially, when you're not being woken up completely or when there are multiple disturbances and poor sleeping habits involved. One doctor's website that I read about nightime urination suggested that many people think that they wake up during the night to urinate, when they're realyl woken due to some other disturbance. The reason why urination is the scapegoat, is because when people are awoken, they tend to have the urge to pee. The brain supposedly suppresses the urge to urinate when the body is well asleep, but if awoken, this mechanism is hindered (read the excerpt I attached below).

One frequent sleep disturbance that goes undiscovered for many sufferers is Sleep Apnea, and another is Restless Legs Syndrome. Both frequently go unidentified for some people for years or decades. I don't know if I have one of these disorders, and again it could be a matter of a neurological issue (aka bad habits wired into my brain), but I'm going to do some more research and possibly get a sleep test done. I really need to get to the bottom of this puzzle as I'm confident that my poor sleep is affecting my mood and focus during the day. I wish anyone else suffering out there success with this battle.

Here's an excerpt from a very interesting article I read...

http://www.yafferude..._urination.html
Sleep and the Nervous System

The urge to urinate is the result of a complex balance of influences. When its muscles are relaxed, the bladder wall is soft and stretchy; pressure doesn't even start to build up until the bladder is half full, and the desire to urinate doesn't begin until it is three-quarters full. As the bladder gets fuller, it sends nerve impulses to the brain, signaling the need to void. But the brain talks back, suppressing the urge until it's convenient or until the bladder is totally full.

When people wake up at night to urinate, they assume that they have a full bladder. In some cases they're right. But as people get older, they often sleep lightly, so instead of suppressing the urge to void until morning, they may sense the urge even before the bladder is three-quarters full; nocturia may be the effect of disrupted sleep, not its cause.

Surprisingly, perhaps, people are very poor judges of what wakes them up. When researchers monitored 80 patients with suspected sleep disorders, they recorded an average of one-and-a half episodes of urination per night. In most cases, the patients said they were awakened by the urge to void, but careful monitoring documented that sleep disturbances were actually responsible for 79% of the awakenings. In men, the major cause was obstructive sleep apnea (see Harvard Men's Health Watch, May 1997); restless legs syndrome was a frequent cause in both sexes (see HMHW, December 1998). Anxiety and various neurological disorders can also contribute to disturbed sleep and nighttime urination, as can insomnia (see HMHW, April and May 1999) and simple habit.

[Logan]

If you are sleeping properly and are not under a lot of stress, waking up just to piss should not have a negative impact at all on a good night's sleep.

[InVeritate]

I only skimmed this thread so excuse me if I got something wrong or if this has already been stated, but are you tracking you fluid intake to know exactly how much you are drinking and voiding? You say you only need to urinate a "pathetically small amount." But is it really? There is a lot of variation in the human bladder and for many the urge to void can begin at as little as 200ml. So voiding 400ml may seem small to you if you are use to holding large amounts during the day, but still cause the urge to void. Have to also considered environmental factors that may keep you from sleeping deeply? Even stray lights coming through the window may interrupt you you are a light sleeper?.

Not drinking 2 hours before going to sleep and voiding before going to bed is good practice. But may not work if you are intaking large amounts, more than you actually need of fluid. Keep a log of all you fluid intake even from things like foods. And buy a urinal to see how much you are actually voiding. It may be more than you think.

[hamishm00]

Yeah, Inveritate is right.

If you are voiding a small amount at night, but normal during the day, this means the urge is being triggered prematurely for some reason, which indicates bladder instability (Nocturia). If its a large amount then something you are eating or drinking is giving you diuresis. It's important to know which problem you are dealing with here, and measuring (i.e. keeping a "bladder diary") which help give you an idea

[albedo]

Apart from them, alpha-1a blockers
for BPH may also be considered.

The latest one is silodosin, which has
just been approved by your FDA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silodosin


Tamsulosin would be the second choice.

Alpha blockers have a lot of very bad side effects like Orthostatic hypotension which is very annoying...
It also leads to muscle weakness.
Not cool.

Btw, Tamsulosin is reknown for its horrible side effects. It also gave me anorgasmia and loss of libido.
In many cases, it's just not worth it.

The idea of taking an antispasmodic seems interesting. Thanks

I am using tamsulosin for mild BPH and has written also here and here (btw clearly experimenting OH). Interesting the comment on muscle weakness, could it be the reason also for a worsening condition of the bladder muscle tone and failure to void completely as I have reported which is my most concern? I would be interesting to have a study pointing to the muscle weakness effect of tamsulosin which is an alpha blocker but specific to prostate, urethrae and bladder receptors. If an effect on bladder muscle tone is real, tamsulosin might be helping with easing the obstruction due to BPH but making worse the capability of bladder to void. Any comment on this idea?

[Sartac]

I found forskolin (cardiovascular research brand) to help some for a while. Not sure if I've adapted to it, as I am getting up again on most nights. No negative effects were noticed on forskolin, and I did check BP after taking for a few days; no noticeable change.

Am in the same boat with OP, thinking it was caffeine and getting a good change from cutting that out. Then back to the drawing board. I'm certain there's more to my issue than sleep apnea, with having a full bladder 2-3 hours after emptying. Time for more doctor's visits and more $$..

[calengineering]

it's been a while and i still haven't found anything that helps. i'm still waking up once or twice a night to leak pathetically small amounts of urine (like a couple ounces).

does anyone else have this problem?

[bio123]

I had a similar problem for a couple of years and tried everything (as with
other problems I've had, doctors were totally useless, apart from telling me
there was nothing obviously amiss and prescribing drugs that made me feel worse.)
I'd had a couple of foot problems in the past that both went away miraculously
after massage, so I decided to try massage on the area. The problem got better
almost straight away and was gone completely in a couple of weeks. My theory is
that since I spend most of my day sitting down (like most these days) I was 'crushing'
the vasculature/plumbing in the area around the genitals, thus causing inflammation
which triggered the 'need to pee' button. Whatever the cause, the massage certainly
worked. Basically I was just lying down on my bed twice a day and massaging the entire
area for about ten minutes, so give it a whirl, doesn't cost a cent

[hamishm00]

You need to measure how much you are urinating. Its simple. If its less than say 300ml after a few hours then you are probably triggering too early. If its more than 500ml after a few hours its mild diuresis. Find the cause this way.

[calengineering]

<br />I had a similar problem for a couple of years and tried everything (as with<br />other problems I've had, doctors were totally useless, apart from telling me<br />there was nothing obviously amiss and prescribing drugs that made me feel worse.)<br />I'd had a couple of foot problems in the past that both went away miraculously <br />after massage, so I decided to try massage on the area.  The problem got better<br />almost straight away and was gone completely in a couple of weeks. My theory is<br />that since I spend most of my day sitting down (like most these days) I was 'crushing'<br />the vasculature/plumbing in the area around the genitals, thus causing inflammation <br />which triggered the 'need to pee' button.  Whatever the cause, the massage certainly<br />worked.  Basically I was just lying down on my bed twice a day and massaging the entire<br />area for about ten minutes, so give it a whirl, doesn't cost a cent <img src='http://www.longecity...fault/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /><br />

<br /><br /><br />

i'm assuming you're massaging your lower abdomen area, where your bladder might be? or are going even lower? haha

[calengineering]

<br />You need to measure how much you are urinating. Its simple. If its less than say 300ml after a few hours then you are probably triggering too early. If its more than 500ml after a few hours its mild diuresis. Find the cause this way.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

it can be as small as 100ml, but more often 2-300. still something ridiculously small. if i'm triggering too early, what can i do about that?
again, there's no pain, and no pressure. just a feeling that i need to pee once or twice a night.

[bio123]

"or are going even lower? haha"

Now you've got it Just don't do it in public or people will get the wrong idea...
Actually what you've got is a fairly common problem, which can get a lot worse (think
feeling the need to pee ALL the time.) Panadol also seems to help, as it seems to be
caused by inflammation a lot of the time.

[calengineering]

"or are going even lower? haha"

Now you've got it Just don't do it in public or people will get the wrong idea...
Actually what you've got is a fairly common problem, which can get a lot worse (think
feeling the need to pee ALL the time.) Panadol also seems to help, as it seems to be
caused by inflammation a lot of the time.

is this inflammation you're referring to basically englarged prostate?
or is it something else? what's the name of it?

[bio123]

is this inflammation you're referring to basically englarged prostate?
or is it something else? what's the name of it?
[/quote]

It's called "damage caused by sitting on your butt for too long". If you
want a Latin name see a doctor and he can give you some damaging chemicals
as well :( Basically sitting down a lot restricts blood flow to your nether
regions, and you need blood flow to receive nutrients and remove waste products,
so that's why massage is so beneficial. Also it had the side benefit of making
me feel like a randy seventeen year old again (I'm 48) so I'd recommend everybody
to try it

[calengineering]

It's called "damage caused by sitting on your butt for too long". If you
want a Latin name see a doctor and he can give you some damaging chemicals
as well :( Basically sitting down a lot restricts blood flow to your nether
regions, and you need blood flow to receive nutrients and remove waste products,
so that's why massage is so beneficial. Also it had the side benefit of making
me feel like a randy seventeen year old again (I'm 48) so I'd recommend everybody
to try it

interesting. my natural reaction is to read more about this online, but i have no idea what to look up without attracting pornography websites.

[Sartac]

Bump for more info. I have found unisom, ashwagandha, tryptophan, and possibly mg to help in varying degrees. Curious if mg is diuretic or if the ash can cause upset stomach / abdominal tension, leading to feelings of urgency.

[Sartac]

Eh, I just take Remeron / mirtazapine, any more. Helped the most for me, and many other things were either inconsistent or too sedating the following day. Have not tried hydroxyzine or Sonata / zaleplon, but that's about it. Unisom / doxylamine has a noticeable tolerance now.

I still get up once, but sleep much better despite this. Have not tried a kitchen sink approach, except with just remeron and trazodone, and was sedated the entire next day. I suspect that these with doxylamine and phenibut + theanine and maybe tryptophan and/or opioids on rare occasion would allow me to sleep through for once.. Not recommending this by any stretch.

Any experiences with Sonata?

[hamishm00]

In relation to urgency, Prostaphil is a worth a try - it seems to have helped Michael with his idiopathic urinary urgency (which is not related in any way to prostate - it seems the defined pollen extract does more than just act on the prostate). see http://www.longecity...ills-fall-2009/

[calengineering]

Thought I'd let everyone know that I believe this problem went away entirely on its own. To rehash the gist: I use to wake up in the middle of the night needing the urinate a very small amount. No leakage, pain, etc...

I moved apartments since then and did some travelling but can't think of any LONG TERM changes to my diet or habits. The problem has been gone for several months and hasn't come back.

I think the entire thing was "neurological" aka just a bad habit. I still wake up to urinate, but only after my alarm rings, which is fine.

My advice to anyone who reads this entry is that if you see similar symptoms as mine in this thread, you should try forcing yourself to go back to sleep and not use the restroom. Or you should adjust your sleeping habits for a few nights to somehow throw this subconscious behavior out of sync.

Edited by calengineering, 03 April 2012 - 02:31 PM.

[kurdishfella]

Vitamin c and zinc and vitamin and magnesium are helpful. You will pee less and thus the liquid is used more efficient

[kurdishfella]

Magnesium makes me pee more until the body adjusts

[kurdishfella]

magnesium intake in high doses from supplements might make your bones weaker at first because calcium activity has increased because of deficiency so when magnesium comes in it inhibits calcium and magnesium then can work its thing.

Edited by kurdishfella, 12 August 2021 - 12:19 AM.

[kurdishfella]

thats also why magnesium for some cause anxiety in beginning as dopamine goes down.