• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans

Photo
* * * * * 1 votes

Can We Live Forever?


  • Please log in to reply
61 replies to this topic

Poll: Can We Live Forever? (131 member(s) have cast votes)

Can We Live Forever?

  1. Yes, we can live forever. (65 votes [52.42%])

    Percentage of vote: 52.42%

  2. No, we can't (20 votes [16.13%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.13%

  3. Maybe (39 votes [31.45%])

    Percentage of vote: 31.45%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#31 NyteFox

  • Guest
  • 15 posts
  • 6
  • Location:Forest
  • NO

Posted 07 January 2016 - 02:09 AM

I've heard of a study on nanotechnology that could be used in the future to keep us alive far past our due date. I'm also very fascinated with cryogenic technology as well, and how it might become an actual thing in the future.

I say as long as we can improve on our understanding of our own anatomy and how our body and brain functions, then there just might be a possibility of a sort of immortality for humans. But who knows how long it will take to get us that far.

Edited by NyteFox, 07 January 2016 - 02:12 AM.

  • Needs references x 1
  • like x 1

#32 Antonio2014

  • Guest
  • 634 posts
  • 52
  • Location:Spain
  • NO

Posted 11 January 2016 - 10:22 AM

NyteFox, do you know about SENS?


Edited by Antonio2014, 11 January 2016 - 10:23 AM.


#33 NyteFox

  • Guest
  • 15 posts
  • 6
  • Location:Forest
  • NO

Posted 11 January 2016 - 10:33 AM

NyteFox, do you know about SENS?


I'm afraid that I do not.

sponsored ad

  • Advert

#34 Antonio2014

  • Guest
  • 634 posts
  • 52
  • Location:Spain
  • NO

Posted 11 January 2016 - 12:35 PM

You can start here: http://www.sens.org/...o-sens-research It doesn't need nanotechnology and can be achieved in 2-3 decades (if properly funded). There is also a section in Longecity: http://www.longecity...ens-methuselah/ and a quite comprehensive video introduction here:


Edited by Antonio2014, 11 January 2016 - 12:55 PM.


#35 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 26 March 2016 - 04:09 AM

Nothing purely physical lives forever.


  • Needs references x 1

#36 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 03 April 2016 - 10:02 PM

Second Law of thermodynamics.  Google it.


  • Ill informed x 1

#37 Antonio2014

  • Guest
  • 634 posts
  • 52
  • Location:Spain
  • NO

Posted 04 April 2016 - 12:35 PM

The second law of thermodynamics says nothing about non-physical things, and for physical things it can only be applied to closed systems. Google it.



#38 Never_Ending

  • Guest
  • 170 posts
  • 4
  • Location:United States

Posted 04 April 2016 - 01:42 PM

Woody Allen-  “I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment.”

 

There's a fair chance of discovering ways to extend life indefinitely (forever is vague), so I would think probably.


Edited by Never_Ending, 04 April 2016 - 01:43 PM.

  • Agree x 1

#39 Danail Bulgaria

  • Guest
  • 2,212 posts
  • 421
  • Location:Bulgaria

Posted 04 April 2016 - 02:01 PM

There is already a way to extend the life indefinately. Now it is a problem of making it happen in purely constructional meaning. The direction is clear, the road is clear, the walked path is clear, it needs more work. That is.

 

The way is to make new structures artifitially, outside the body and transplant them.

 

For example, your heart gets old and breaks down, a new heart is made for you, from your stem cells, that have the same genetics like you, and they will transplant it in your body. This can be done with every part of your body. You need a certain number of vital organs to be made from stem cells - heart, lungs,liver, kidneys, several endocrinic glands, and neural cells, that can be transplanetd in the brain. This is the minimum of what has to be done in order you to be able to replace your aged and damaged vital organs and continue existing forever.

 

For now unfortunatelly, only small things can be made from stem cells with the possibility to be transplanted in people. Such are skin, hair, cartilages and bones, some blood vessels. Making the most important parts are still out of reach. However, if a certain treshhold is being jumped over, living forever will be completely possible.

 

You may see my topic about the stem cells, that are used on people. It is in the Stem Cells section in this forum. It may inspire you and you may start lookig for a way to join the research of stem cells.

 


  • Needs references x 1

#40 Antonio2014

  • Guest
  • 634 posts
  • 52
  • Location:Spain
  • NO

Posted 04 April 2016 - 09:29 PM

As I said to you before: not all parts of your body can be transplanted (for example, the circulatory system or the brain), not all aging causes need a transplant or can be solved by a transplant (for example, transplants will be of no use for clearing lipofuscin or glucosepane). Let's not oversimplify aging and try to treat it with a single silver bullet.


  • Good Point x 1

#41 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 04 April 2016 - 09:35 PM

The second law of thermodynamics says nothing about non-physical things, and for physical things it can only be applied to closed systems. Google it.

Correct.  The second law speaks only to the physical.  Are you saying we are not living in a closed system or are physical.

.



#42 Danail Bulgaria

  • Guest
  • 2,212 posts
  • 421
  • Location:Bulgaria

Posted 05 April 2016 - 08:32 AM

As I said to you before: not all parts of your body can be transplanted (for example, the circulatory system or the brain), not all aging causes need a transplant or can be solved by a transplant (for example, transplants will be of no use for clearing lipofuscin or glucosepane). Let's not oversimplify aging and try to treat it with a single silver bullet.

 

You don't need exactly to replace vessels, you may stend them with intravascullar stends (a standart procedure in many hospitals all over the world for 2015 and 2016), and you may keep them open on that way. But as general for these blood vessels you are right. Today there are blood vessels, that can't be replaced. You may solve that problem by combining the stem cells technologies with the standart medicine, but again you will need new structures, and again these structures is best to be made with your DNA.

 

A way to renew the blood vessels is again connected with stem cells. It is to reach the blood vessels with intravascular device for placing stands, and to inject the stem cells directly in the wall of the vessels. Thus you will renew the blood vessel not by cutting it, and placing a new one on its place, but by replacing the vessel cell by cell when the crucial new cells start to divide and replace the old ones.

 

If you want that much to transplant them, then not having at the moment a routine method for their transplantation does not mean, that this is impossible for them to be transplanted. The modern medicine (2015-2016) can access all possible parts of the body and replace macroscopic structures, that are not routinely transplanted. The intravascular access allows acces to all of the blood vessels all over the body. I believe, that the intravascular method for replacing a blood vessel will be developed in 5 -10 years after the transplanting (by surgery) of blood vessels made from stem cells becomes routine.

 

In brief the blood vessels of the brain is a serious problem for my view, but even it is not an unsolvable problem.

 

What is the scientific evidence, that you die from accumulating lipofuscin or glucosepane? Aging change - yes, but deadly? To be deadly the accumulates have to damage a vital organ on a way for it to stop function. 


  • Needs references x 1

#43 Antonio2014

  • Guest
  • 634 posts
  • 52
  • Location:Spain
  • NO

Posted 05 April 2016 - 12:20 PM

Are you saying we are not living in a closed system

 

Are you kidding me??? Please, stop reading the bible for a moment, go outside (provided it's a non-cloudy day there) and look above you. See that yellowish thing? All the energy and entropy in our bodies comes from there.


Edited by Antonio2014, 05 April 2016 - 12:22 PM.

  • Unfriendly x 1

#44 Antonio2014

  • Guest
  • 634 posts
  • 52
  • Location:Spain
  • NO

Posted 05 April 2016 - 12:27 PM

What is the scientific evidence, that you die from accumulating lipofuscin or glucosepane? Aging change - yes, but deadly? To be deadly the accumulates have to damage a vital organ on a way for it to stop function. 

 

Huh? Are you serious? The heart or the brain are not vital enough for you? http://www.sens.org/...ular-crosslinks
 


  • unsure x 1

#45 Never_Ending

  • Guest
  • 170 posts
  • 4
  • Location:United States

Posted 05 April 2016 - 01:13 PM

Also just saying , if you look at the 2nd law  and how bodies that died decay    you can see how fast it can work. If people didn't constantly export entropy and have an intake of nutrients  the 2nd law would make people wither/rot in a matter of days.

 

When you self-repair and cells renew that's a way of exporting entropy  but then exporting entropy requires a lot of energy ,  which you get from food.  The food has low entropy and high energy when you eat it but it comes out with high entropy and low energy(feces). So the total result is still more entropy...but that entropy has already moved outside of you.


  • Good Point x 1

#46 Danail Bulgaria

  • Guest
  • 2,212 posts
  • 421
  • Location:Bulgaria

Posted 05 April 2016 - 01:53 PM

 

What is the scientific evidence, that you die from accumulating lipofuscin or glucosepane? Aging change - yes, but deadly? To be deadly the accumulates have to damage a vital organ on a way for it to stop function. 

 

Huh? Are you serious? The heart or the brain are not vital enough for you? http://www.sens.org/...ular-crosslinks
 

 

 

Yes, I am serious. What is the evidence, that you die solely because of that accumulations in the brain. I am not questioning the existence of things, that accumulate in the brain. Simply their ability to kill you. There are aging chages, that you may live with - the wrinkled skin for example. No matter how wrinkled your skin will become, you will not die because of that. Trust me for the last one. Do you know of any evidences, that the things, that accumulate particularly in the brain are deadly? This is an important question, because I am not considering the heart as an argument. I don't because it is an replacable organ. The things that accumulate in it, harmless or not simply will go away when the entire old heart is removed, and a new heart is being transplanted in your body. Your new heart will not have any accumulates.


  • Needs references x 1

#47 Antonio2014

  • Guest
  • 634 posts
  • 52
  • Location:Spain
  • NO

Posted 05 April 2016 - 05:08 PM

Read the link.


  • unsure x 1

#48 Danail Bulgaria

  • Guest
  • 2,212 posts
  • 421
  • Location:Bulgaria

Posted 05 April 2016 - 08:38 PM

I red it. It talks about only replacable structures. This is why I wanted to get deeply into what do you mean.

 

Here are the structures, that in your link are being damaged primarely:

 

"Such proteins are responsible for the elasticity of the artery wall, the transparency of the lens of the eye, and the high tensile strength of the ligaments"

 

- Arteries are being transplanted currently from one place of the body to another. Furthermore veins are being transplanted on the places of the arteries. Give new arteries, the medicine already knows how o place them in you.

- The lens of the eye is being replaced with artifitial one today. The methodics exists. The lens simply currently is artifitial. Make a biological lense from the patients cells, and it will be replaced. The surgery procedure exists.

- The ligaments are transplantable too. They are just strches of connective tissue. Give the new ligaments, and the surgery will place them in their place.

 

"One subtle form of mechanical damage that probably contributes to the stiffening of the large arteries"

 

- The larger is an artery the easier it can be replaced by surgery.

 

The idea, that you can make new structures with stem cells and replace the old ones is enough to solve all of the medical problems all over the body.

If some area has some damage, no matter what exactly the damage is, accumulation, crosslinks or whatever you don't like, then you can fix it by simply replacing that part. With genetically identical structure. The whatever damage goes away with the removed part.

This is the correct path to the immortality.

Make the new structures and find a way to replace them.

Not impossible per se.

 

 

 

I am not talking only fantasies. The future is knocking on the door.  

 

 

A team, that makes arteries from stem cells:

http://www.futuretim...tm#.VMUBwSwpq9f

Some basic info about replacing blood vessels:

http://www.healthlin...-bypass-surgery

 

The routine procedure for replacement of the lens:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=qNdbEp88M4s

 

 

The methods for reaching ligamnets are dependant on the ligament to be reached. But the modern surgery can access them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If we make the constant replacement we will live forever.

How long we will live if we make the removal of crosslinks?


  • Disagree x 1

#49 Antonio2014

  • Guest
  • 634 posts
  • 52
  • Location:Spain
  • NO

Posted 06 April 2016 - 12:32 PM

- Arteries are being transplanted currently from one place of the body to another. Furthermore veins are being transplanted on the places of the arteries. Give new arteries, the medicine already knows how o place them in you.

 

You can't replace your entire circulatory system, and this damage is global, glucosepane stiffens all your arteries and veins at the same time, that causes hypertension, and that causes heart attacks and strokes in the brain.

 

Lipofuscin accumulates inside all your cells. You can't replace your whole body. And, even if you could, it would be much easier to simply insert in your cells a gene for a lipofuscin-breaking enzime.


Edited by Antonio2014, 06 April 2016 - 12:35 PM.

  • Good Point x 1

#50 Danail Bulgaria

  • Guest
  • 2,212 posts
  • 421
  • Location:Bulgaria

Posted 06 April 2016 - 02:07 PM

I believe, that the entire vasculary system of the man is replacable. If you give me enough arteries and veins, why not? Not in one surgery, yes, but in many surgeries, in many stages, worths trying. The big and the middle sized blood vessels are either routinely aproachable in the different surgeries, or reaching them is not a problem. Remember, that the small, and the smallest blood vessels are inside the organs, and the organs themselves are replacable. For example, you don't need to replace the entire tiny blood vessels of a kidney, because you may transplant the entire kidney itself, with a brend new tiny blood vessels in it. The main blood vessels of the brain travel between its gyruses. To reach them you need only to lift the calvaria. The majority of the neurosurgeons will give you an access to the main brain's blood vessels.

 

If you insert a gene for lipofuscin-breaking enzime, and if it works for the better of your body, you will start loosing your parts of humanity and will start turning into some sort of a humanoid mutant. Later other problems will appear, and you will have to place another gene, and another, and the effect will be, that you will not be gaining strength, you will be loosing what has left from your human features.

If you don't mind that, do it, if you can. And there comes a new barrier. How will you insert a gene inside all of the cells of your entire body? If I have to bet of what is more plausable - trnasplanting everything in you when it breaks down v/s inserting a gene inside all of your body's cells, I would bet on the transplants.

 

*1 -> the lipofuscin still (april 2016) is not investigated enough, and it is not certain, that its removal will give you a benefit. It may, it may not. In the worst case scenario, it may turn opposite - its removal may cause you more damage, than positive effects.

 

*2 -> I myself see that many problems still exist in that replacable strategy for immmortality I believe in.

The most important is the absence of the most importnat spare parts for replacement. This is why I hope, that in the near future, while I am still alive there to appear a way for artifitially building the needed spare parts. At least the critical minimum.

It is not if there are not other problems, such as cost, heaviness of the operations, postsurgery conditions, etc.

Simply from all of the ways for being immortal, I believe, that one is the most reachable.


  • Needs references x 1

#51 Antonio2014

  • Guest
  • 634 posts
  • 52
  • Location:Spain
  • NO

Posted 07 April 2016 - 07:19 AM

I believe, that the entire vasculary system of the man is replacable. If you give me enough arteries and veins, why not? Not in one surgery, yes, but in many surgeries, in many stages, worths trying. The big and the middle sized blood vessels are either routinely aproachable in the different surgeries, or reaching them is not a problem.

 

C'mon... let's be serious... Do you know how many surgeries you would need?

 

Remember, that the small, and the smallest blood vessels are inside the organs, and the organs themselves are replacable.

 

Yeah, replace your brain.

 

If you insert a gene for lipofuscin-breaking enzime, and if it works for the better of your body, you will start loosing your parts of humanity and will start turning into some sort of a humanoid mutant.

 

So what? Much better than losing my brain or becoming Freddy Krueger after thousands of surgeries.

 

Later other problems will appear, and you will have to place another gene, and another, and the effect will be, that you will not be gaining strength, you will be loosing what has left from your human features.

 

Huh? This conversation is becoming really stupid. I'll stop here.


Edited by Antonio2014, 07 April 2016 - 07:21 AM.

  • Good Point x 1

#52 Danail Bulgaria

  • Guest
  • 2,212 posts
  • 421
  • Location:Bulgaria

Posted 07 April 2016 - 07:56 AM

Many operations, right. You may spread them in the time to make them less, and to replace only the structures, that are most urgent. Even if you spread them in the time, and make only the most needed, their dilution in the time will be more than the average. But what do you expect - to become immortal for nothing? The nature do not allows that. You have to pay the cost for biological immortality. For example can you pay the biological cost of making one operation per year for 100 years more of your life. This is up to a choice.

 

For the tiniest blood vessels in the brain the things are not that simple. You are right. Making new ones there is an unexplored field. The correct way is not to divert to another path, but to find a way to make the technology.

 

It is again up to what is it according to you to be immortal.

 

There are even peple, who believe, that will be immortal if they clone themselves in the future, or even if they make an electronic model of their brain.

 

If you don't mind being genetically dehumanized, fine. No problem about it. Still, you didn't answer how will tickle a gene in your entire body.


  • Disagree x 1

#53 IDoNotWantToDie

  • Guest
  • 41 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Connecticut, USA near Yale University

Posted 07 April 2016 - 03:49 PM

Ugg, you had to ask that http://www.imminst.o...O_DIR#/wink.gif
I'm sure you've had a chance to read the Immortality FAQ, but if not, that's where I'm coming from.

I can't seem to get the link of the Immortality FAQ. Does someone have a link that works or a copy if it on their computer somewhere? If so can you please upload. Thank you, I would love to see it.

Edit : the reason I ask is because I have been working on an 'Immortality FAQ' of my own for university ( hopefully I will get some sort of extra credit for it ). Had I realised that the Immortality Institute ( Longecity ) had one already I might not have started mine. In any case mine is to be a general guide for people new to the subject and to answer those common nagging questions we get all the time like "Won't I get bored if I live forever?" and "What about overpopulation ?" ,etc.,etc. I hope it will clear up the many myths, preconceived notions and just plain ignorance on the topic of immortality. I also hope to persuade the public to help the cause by either donating to organizations like the SENS Research Foundation, to be an activist for human longevity/life extension , or to even enter the field of longevity research themselves.

Edited by IDoNotWantToDie, 07 April 2016 - 04:12 PM.


#54 Antonio2014

  • Guest
  • 634 posts
  • 52
  • Location:Spain
  • NO

Posted 07 April 2016 - 09:08 PM

I like this FAQ.



#55 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 07 April 2016 - 09:08 PM

 

Are you saying we are not living in a closed system

 

Are you kidding me??? Please, stop reading the bible for a moment, go outside (provided it's a non-cloudy day there) and look above you. See that yellowish thing? All the energy and entropy in our bodies comes from there.

 

 

Yes but I wasn't getting this from the bible and in fact didn't mention it. Bigotry.  The sun itself is not eternal and has a lifespan.  It is part of the closed system in case you haven't noticed.  Just as I said.
 



#56 Antonio2014

  • Guest
  • 634 posts
  • 52
  • Location:Spain
  • NO

Posted 07 April 2016 - 09:11 PM

Yes but I wasn't getting this from the bible and in fact didn't mention it. Bigotry.  The sun itself is not eternal and has a lifespan.  It is part of the closed system in case you haven't noticed.  Just as I said.

 

Another stupid conversation. Since you can't understand even simple physics arguments, I will stop this too.
 


Edited by Antonio2014, 07 April 2016 - 09:12 PM.

  • Disagree x 1

#57 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 07 April 2016 - 09:22 PM

Why don't you say something cogent?  But, perhaps you have nothing more to say since you seem to think the sun is eternal.  OK :)



#58 Antonio2014

  • Guest
  • 634 posts
  • 52
  • Location:Spain
  • NO

Posted 08 April 2016 - 05:49 AM

No, simply it's pointless to talk to someone that has a total ignorance of the matter and null capacity of reasoning.

 

But, anyway, for the other people... If you are trying to ascertain whether we can be immortal or not, we are the closed or open system that you must apply it to. There is absolutly no point in applying it to the whole Universe (the only closed system where we are in), and anyway it's dubious that you can apply it to the universe (after all, the Big Bang is a huge violation of the second law). In my previous commet I was only showing that we aren't closed systems either, but evidently you were too much ignorant to understand it, and also you believed you know enough, so I stopped there.


Edited by Antonio2014, 08 April 2016 - 05:50 AM.

  • Ill informed x 1

#59 IDoNotWantToDie

  • Guest
  • 41 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Connecticut, USA near Yale University

Posted 08 April 2016 - 05:29 PM

I like this FAQ.


WOW! Thanks for sharing that one, its really good!! Mine is going to have to be an even more extensive beginners Immortality FAQ then it is now, since you showed me that one.

#60 Antonio2014

  • Guest
  • 634 posts
  • 52
  • Location:Spain
  • NO

Posted 09 April 2016 - 10:14 AM

Good luck with your writings :)


  • Pointless, Timewasting x 1




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users