34 replies to this topic

[TheFountain]

(I feel like I posted about this before, but I wanted to revisit this subject, because it irritates me)
I keep seeing an endless number of these 130 pound guys with six packs, and yet no other kind of muscle.

What the hell is going on here? How do they get six packs not working other muscle groups or cardio workout (when I ask alot of them what they do they just say ab workout!), and all of this on a 'normal, high carb diet'?

I have to struggle just to keep a four pack on a low carb diet (50-60 grams daily).

But then I have other muscle development going on too. So I would rather have that than just a six pack, but still, what the hell? Please don't say 'genetics'. I can't stand that argument, cause I have a couple friends who are really skinny with six packs and both their parents are fat. I also know for a fact that I workout way harder than they do. So seriously, what's the deal with really skinny guys with no muscle development but who have six packs?

[caston]

Perhaps they are doing lots of sit-ups?

[Vindex]

I think I would fit the description. It's not that they are developed, but rather there's a low amount of body fat in the area, making the divisions visible. In this case, having a low body fat percentage is way more relevant than working the muscles.

Edited by Vindex, 18 November 2010 - 01:37 PM.

[nowayout]

As Vindex said, you don't have to work out to have visible abs.

[TheFountain]

As Vindex said, you don't have to work out to have visible abs.

Well I have visible abs but not complete six pack (my lower two abs are not visible).

But the question I would ask is HOW do guys who do nothing but sit ups or ab work burn all that belly fat on high carb diets (individual sit ups do not burn that many calories, nor do 50 or 100 even)? Again, my understanding is that more than simple ab work is necessary to burn away excess body fat from the abdomenal region.

Edited by TheFountain, 18 November 2010 - 03:29 PM.

[TheFountain]

I think I would fit the description. It's not that they are developed, but rather there's a low amount of body fat in the area, making the divisions visible. In this case, having a low body fat percentage is way more relevant than working the muscles.

Indeed, but the question is how do you get low body fat without doing any sort of work out? And then there are people who, despite how much aerobics they do cannot get a full six pack. I attribute that to a catabolic effect though, too much cardio eats away muscle mass, etc.

[nowayout]

As Vindex said, you don't have to work out to have visible abs.

Well I have visible abs but not complete six pack (my lower two abs are not visible).

But the question I would ask is HOW do guys who do nothing but sit ups or ab work burn all that belly fat on high carb diets (individual sit ups do not burn that many calories, nor do 50 or 100 even)? Again, my understanding is that more than simple ab work is necessary to burn away excess body fat from the abdomenal region.

If you never had the fat in the first place, there is no need to burn it off.

Some people just have high metabolisms that will burn off all excess calories even if we lie in bed all day. I am one of those people. But don't be envious - the flip side is that we have a great deal of difficulty building muscle mass.

[nowayout]

As Vindex said, you don't have to work out to have visible abs.

Well I have visible abs but not complete six pack (my lower two abs are not visible).

Anatomies differ. you are either born with a six-pack or a 4-pack or in some cases an 8-pack. This is genetically set and is impossible to change.

Even Arnold Schwarzenegger did not have a 6-pack. He had only a 4-pack.



And some guys have an 8-pack



and some guys have uneven abs. Here is a 7-pack:

Edited by viveutvivas, 18 November 2010 - 04:33 PM.

[TheFountain]

As Vindex said, you don't have to work out to have visible abs.

Well I have visible abs but not complete six pack (my lower two abs are not visible).

But the question I would ask is HOW do guys who do nothing but sit ups or ab work burn all that belly fat on high carb diets (individual sit ups do not burn that many calories, nor do 50 or 100 even)? Again, my understanding is that more than simple ab work is necessary to burn away excess body fat from the abdomenal region.

If you never had the fat in the first place, there is no need to burn it off.

Some people just have high metabolisms that will burn off all excess calories even if we lie in bed all day. I am one of those people. But don't be envious - the flip side is that we have a great deal of difficulty building muscle mass.

Interestingly this might be why some smaller framed men become 'skinny fat' instead of fat. My theory is they might have this kind of BMR you speak of and do not utilize enough dietary protein in order to keep the body from catabolizing muscle in place of fat stores (or maybe this, plus over indulgence in carbs). Hence the skinny fat dilemma, but somehow their metabolism still prevents their average BMI from going up and them from becoming obese.

[Vindex]

Indeed, but the question is how do you get low body fat without doing any sort of work out? And then there are people who, despite how much aerobics they do cannot get a full six pack. I attribute that to a catabolic effect though, too much cardio eats away muscle mass, etc.

I have an ectomorph type of body so I'm naturally skinny. The only work out I do is mountain biking which doesn't even require abs, except for torso stabilization.

If you never had the fat in the first place, there is no need to burn it off.

Some people just have high metabolisms that will burn off all excess calories even if we lie in bed all day. I am one of those people. But don't be envious - the flip side is that we have a great deal of difficulty building muscle mass.

Yup. I used to (try to) body build some years ago and didn't gain much weight (5 kgs), even though I was eating a lot, sometimes 4000 kcals/day. Point being an ectomorph needs a lot of extra discipline to build muscle mass and I just got tired was looking hot though

[Ron]

"Abs are made in the kitchen, not the gym." That cliche said, it does take training to get attractive abs rather than just some lines on your stomach. Obliques will typically be nonexistent without core work. But yeah, first step is to get body fat % down.

[Skötkonung]

High fat, medium-high protein, very low carbohydrate ketogenic diet with slight caloric deficit will make you that lean. Add in some cardio to become very lean. At least that is my preferred technique. That said, I won't say that it feels "good" to be constantly hungry and restricting dietary options so stringently. It's not worth the leanness unless you are doing it for a short duration (a vacation or something?).

I'd take 10% bodyfat over 6% if the latter gives me more quality of life. If you have four abs visible instead of 6, that's still miles ahead of most guys. Who cares if some genetic freaks stay that lean perenially!

[TheFountain]

"Abs are made in the kitchen, not the gym." That cliche said, it does take training to get attractive abs rather than just some lines on your stomach. Obliques will typically be nonexistent without core work. But yeah, first step is to get body fat % down.

The thread is not really designed to complain that I do not have abs as I do, maybe not a full six pack but nonetheless.

The thread was made to sort of point to those really skinny guys with no muscle other than abdominal development and ask 'how' and 'why'? I personally am not an advocate of being huge at all, but when having abs I also want some other muscle development to help stabilize the rest of my body. The guys I am pointing at have no other muscle but abs. Interesting what having visible abs does to their ego though.

[TheFountain]

High fat, medium-high protein, very low carbohydrate ketogenic diet with slight caloric deficit will make you that lean. Add in some cardio to become very lean. At least that is my preferred technique. That said, I won't say that it feels "good" to be constantly hungry and restricting dietary options so stringently. It's not worth the leanness unless you are doing it for a short duration (a vacation or something?).

I'd take 10% bodyfat over 6% if the latter gives me more quality of life. If you have four abs visible instead of 6, that's still miles ahead of most guys. Who cares if some genetic freaks stay that lean perenially!

I've been minimizing my cardio activity lately because in my experience too much is catabolic to muscle tissue, especially when being on a calorie deficit (which I sometimes am). When you don't lift super heavy you want to preserve what muscle you do have. 6% body fat is just completely unnecessary in my opinion. Anywhere from 9-11% is fine for someone with some muscle development, who wants to maintain a healthy, albeit, balanced lifestyle. I will venture even to say that I am not so sure 6% body fat is that healthy outside of transient competition level maintenance. It just seems a little too much on the low spectrum to maintained constantly without living in a gym 5 hours a day.

Edited by TheFountain, 19 November 2010 - 10:51 AM.

[mikeinnaples]

I am an 8 pack guy myself ....but I agree with everyone else that the abs arent made in the gym, but rather in the kitchen.

Key to good abs is diet first, exercise second. The reason why people have abs and nothing else is because they have low body fat and despite their lack of working out, the abs -always- get worked out to enough of a degree to show at low body fat regardless simply through the act of every day to day living.

[TheFountain]

I am an 8 pack guy myself ....but I agree with everyone else that the abs arent made in the gym, but rather in the kitchen.

Key to good abs is diet first, exercise second. The reason why people have abs and nothing else is because they have low body fat and despite their lack of working out, the abs -always- get worked out to enough of a degree to show at low body fat regardless simply through the act of every day to day living.

What is this diet everyone speaks of that makes visible abs? personally I have to work for my abs. Even if it is only 3 days a week, my abs were never just given to me. Even doing a low carb diet does not, in and of itself, grant me visible abs. The fat I consume ends up as visceral fat if I do not use it as energy. And by energy I mean working out vigorously at least 3 times a week not just 'day to day' activity. I really don't know who gets abs that way, they must be indigo children or something.

Edited by TheFountain, 07 December 2010 - 03:00 PM.

[rwac]

What is this diet everyone speaks of that makes visible abs? personally I have to work for my abs. Even if it is only 3 days a week, my abs were never just given to me. Even doing a low carb diet does not, in and of itself, grant me visible abs. The fat I consume ends up as visceral fat if I do not use it as energy. And by energy I mean working out vigorously at least 3 times a week not just 'day to day' activity. I really don't know who gets abs that way, they must be indigo children or something.

Have you considered that you may need more choline ?
I certainly need more than the RDA.
Possibly more folate too.

[mikeinnaples]

I am an 8 pack guy myself ....but I agree with everyone else that the abs arent made in the gym, but rather in the kitchen.

Key to good abs is diet first, exercise second. The reason why people have abs and nothing else is because they have low body fat and despite their lack of working out, the abs -always- get worked out to enough of a degree to show at low body fat regardless simply through the act of every day to day living.

What is this diet everyone speaks of that makes visible abs? personally I have to work for my abs. Even if it is only 3 days a week, my abs were never just given to me. Even doing a low carb diet does not, in and of itself, grant me visible abs. The fat I consume ends up as visceral fat if I do not use it as energy. And by energy I mean working out vigorously at least 3 times a week not just 'day to day' activity. I really don't know who gets abs that way, they must be indigo children or something.

The 'diet' is not a specific diet, just low body fat and normal healthy eating. In other words, I am not on a 'diet' specifically ...but I dont eat fast food, fried crap, and I don't eat a lot of carbs. I would say I am moderate/low carb and moderate/high protein in my diet overall. I work my abs twice a week as part of my bi-weekly full body workout routine. Aside from that, my core gets worked from my other activites ...like surfing. Thats it. I don't have to do 500 crunches 3x/day and 7 days per week. I just keep my body fat low and viola ...ripped 8 pack.

Edit: and its not like I am some young guy either who comes across it naturally ...I am 36 years old.

Edited by mikeinnaples, 07 December 2010 - 03:41 PM.

[TheFountain]

What is this diet everyone speaks of that makes visible abs? personally I have to work for my abs. Even if it is only 3 days a week, my abs were never just given to me. Even doing a low carb diet does not, in and of itself, grant me visible abs. The fat I consume ends up as visceral fat if I do not use it as energy. And by energy I mean working out vigorously at least 3 times a week not just 'day to day' activity. I really don't know who gets abs that way, they must be indigo children or something.

Have you considered that you may need more choline ?
I certainly need more than the RDA.
Possibly more folate too.

I take a multivitamin daily which presumably has all of that stuff in it, but please explain your reasoning.

[TheFountain]

I am an 8 pack guy myself ....but I agree with everyone else that the abs arent made in the gym, but rather in the kitchen.

Key to good abs is diet first, exercise second. The reason why people have abs and nothing else is because they have low body fat and despite their lack of working out, the abs -always- get worked out to enough of a degree to show at low body fat regardless simply through the act of every day to day living.

What is this diet everyone speaks of that makes visible abs? personally I have to work for my abs. Even if it is only 3 days a week, my abs were never just given to me. Even doing a low carb diet does not, in and of itself, grant me visible abs. The fat I consume ends up as visceral fat if I do not use it as energy. And by energy I mean working out vigorously at least 3 times a week not just 'day to day' activity. I really don't know who gets abs that way, they must be indigo children or something.

The 'diet' is not a specific diet, just low body fat and normal healthy eating. In other words, I am not on a 'diet' specifically ...but I dont eat fast food, fried crap, and I don't eat a lot of carbs. I would say I am moderate/low carb and moderate/high protein in my diet overall. I work my abs twice a week as part of my bi-weekly full body workout routine. Aside from that, my core gets worked from my other activites ...like surfing. Thats it. I don't have to do 500 crunches 3x/day and 7 days per week. I just keep my body fat low and viola ...ripped 8 pack.

Edit: and its not like I am some young guy either who comes across it naturally ...I am 36 years old.

You're preaching to the choir with regard to staying away from garbage food. I never eat fast food, do not consume anything with added sugar and am at about 50-70 carbs a day. I think the fallacy with high fat consumption is that it will always be easily used as fuel, even if you don't do much. I don't think so, not unless you work out vigorously and yes, surfing qualifies as a vigorous work out. Athletic even. I prefer my controlled work outs but I don't think you're getting your abs through 'normal activity'. I hardly consider surfing a normal activity. Like me, you're getting abs through working out hard. Just in a different way.

[rwac]

I take a multivitamin daily which presumably has all of that stuff in it, but please explain your reasoning.

Visceral fat is closely correlated to NAFLD (Non-alcoholic Fatty Liver).
Fatty Liver is a symptom of choline deficiency, choline is necessary for the liver to export fat. (see http://blog.choleste...ggs-organs.html)
A large percentage of americans have a polymorphism to the PEMT gene which increase the choline requirement.
In addition a mutation to MTHFR would cause a folate deficiency with a secondary choline deficiency.

[TheFountain]

I take a multivitamin daily which presumably has all of that stuff in it, but please explain your reasoning.

Visceral fat is closely correlated to NAFLD (Non-alcoholic Fatty Liver).
Fatty Liver is a symptom of choline deficiency, choline is necessary for the liver to export fat. (see http://blog.choleste...ggs-organs.html)
A large percentage of americans have a polymorphism to the PEMT gene which increase the choline requirement.
In addition a mutation to MTHFR would cause a folate deficiency with a secondary choline deficiency.

I never said I was fat. I simply said I had to work to get rid of abdominal fat (like most people do) and that I am not handed my abs like other's are (probably guys who do a ton of crunches at a calorie deficit).

I doubt I have a choline deficiency because I eat 8-10 eggs a day. One of the highest food sources of choline is egg yolk, as you probably know.

[kenny001]

with more moderate diet and do more exercise to strengthen the muscles. keep the body fat low and the muscles strong. of course, if you want to get the effect, you should insist on doing for a period of time, then you will achieve.

[VidX]

My speculation that if one has a high natural GH - that's what happens with body fat (it melts no matter what). I'm one of these people. I mean - I workout heavy, 5days a week, but even if I wouldn't I could have just a six-pack, while eating donuts all the day..


I used to hate my "high metabolism", tho' when I witness guys struggling to shed off the fat year round - I feel a lot better, as I can be smaller, but ripped year-round without much effort, and the more I train, the more I want the "ripped" look, not just to get "big" and smooth, what was a goal 5 or so years ago...

Edited by VidX, 31 December 2010 - 05:07 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

I am not handed my abs like other's are (probably guys who do a ton of crunches at a calorie deficit).

Interesting choice of words.... if they do a ton of crunches at a calorie deficet, then they arent handed ANYTHING ...they are just working at it harder than you.

[TheFountain]

My speculation that if one has a high natural GH - that's what happens with body fat (it melts no matter what). I'm one of these people. I mean - I workout heavy, 5days a week, but even if I wouldn't I could have just a six-pack, while eating donuts all the day..


I used to hate my "high metabolism", tho' when I witness guys struggling to shed off the fat year round - I feel a lot better, as I can be smaller, but ripped year-round without much effort, and the more I train, the more I want the "ripped" look, not just to get "big" and smooth, what was a goal 5 or so years ago...

Working out intensely 5 days a week doesn't seem like 'not much effort'.

[TheFountain]

I am not handed my abs like other's are (probably guys who do a ton of crunches at a calorie deficit).

Interesting choice of words.... if they do a ton of crunches at a calorie deficet, then they arent handed ANYTHING ...they are just working at it harder than you.

Crunches don't require alot of effort. If I did 200 crunches a day instead of my usual weight workout I would probably still only make 30% of the expenditure of my normal workout. And I would lose other muscle focusing too much on one group. No thanks.

[VidX]

My speculation that if one has a high natural GH - that's what happens with body fat (it melts no matter what). I'm one of these people. I mean - I workout heavy, 5days a week, but even if I wouldn't I could have just a six-pack, while eating donuts all the day..


I used to hate my "high metabolism", tho' when I witness guys struggling to shed off the fat year round - I feel a lot better, as I can be smaller, but ripped year-round without much effort, and the more I train, the more I want the "ripped" look, not just to get "big" and smooth, what was a goal 5 or so years ago...

Working out intensely 5 days a week doesn't seem like 'not much effort'.

The thing is - there are these who work out as much as I do, and even eat less (as I eat a lot, and have the right enviroment to be able to ghet my meals down whenever I need) tho' they are miles away from my body fat (which I've never ever tried to lower consciously).

But you can try leangains.com approach.

Edited by VidX, 01 January 2011 - 02:43 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

I am not handed my abs like other's are (probably guys who do a ton of crunches at a calorie deficit).

Interesting choice of words.... if they do a ton of crunches at a calorie deficet, then they arent handed ANYTHING ...they are just working at it harder than you.

Crunches don't require alot of effort. If I did 200 crunches a day instead of my usual weight workout I would probably still only make 30% of the expenditure of my normal workout. And I would lose other muscle focusing too much on one group. No thanks.

Oh thats what you meant by what you said. It wasnt very clear.

[TheFountain]

I am not handed my abs like other's are (probably guys who do a ton of crunches at a calorie deficit).

Interesting choice of words.... if they do a ton of crunches at a calorie deficet, then they arent handed ANYTHING ...they are just working at it harder than you.

Crunches don't require alot of effort. If I did 200 crunches a day instead of my usual weight workout I would probably still only make 30% of the expenditure of my normal workout. And I would lose other muscle focusing too much on one group. No thanks.

Oh thats what you meant by what you said. It wasnt very clear.

Yea I mean it's entirely possible to get abs with less effort than someone makes doing much harder workouts. If abs are the main concern I suppose. If having an overall symmetrical body composition and muscle lay out is, then harder workouts are necessary.