45 replies to this topic

[mustardseed41]

 

 

Derma-needling has been clinically proven to induce collagen synthesis.

 

It takes 1.5mm length needle for best results, at that depth utmost care for sterility of needles and skin are important.

 

High supplementation of Vitamin C (ascorbate) is necessary to support the collagen synthesis.

 

There is also a laser based treatment that heats the collagen under the skin causing it to contract and also induce collagen synthesis.

 

There is also threading -- which causes collagen synthesis google "thread lift"

 

All these processes induce collagen synthesis due to micro injury of the collagen layer.

 

Also google "jack lalane facial exercises" - you can find on youtube

 

Most of these treatments take months (6-10 or more) to show results.

 

Newer research from Dr. Lance Setterfield has shown that Dermarollers 0.5mm induce collagen. He has shown that even cosmetic rolls of 0.3mm can produce collagen via a different pathway than medical rolls.

https://www.facebook...doc.setterfield

 

Can you post a link to the research papers -- I would much rather use .3 or .5 ; .3 you really don't even need the numbing gel.

 

 

Yes that is a huge advantage to shorter needles. I remember rolling with a 2.0mm and it still hurt pretty bad with the numbing cream.

For most of the time I have rolled (3+ years) I have followed the advice of Sarah at owndoc.com who was basically following the advice of Dr. Fernandez.

 

With a 0.5mm you should not need numbing cream either. Dr.Setterfield say's that for best results you should incorporate both cosmetic and medical rolls into your routine. I personally don't care about product penetration. I'm interested in what the rollers themselves are doing.

I use a 0.75mm roller for medical rolls simply because I figure I'm a guy and our skin is a little thicker so just makes sense to me. Thinking outside the box if you will. I try to do cosmetic rolls every other night. Medical rolls once every 4 weeks.

 

http://beautymagonli...5-needling-09-1

 

[Bellastella]

Derma-needling has been clinically proven to induce collagen synthesis.

 

It takes 1.5mm length needle for best results, at that depth utmost care for sterility of needles and skin are important.

 

High supplementation of Vitamin C (ascorbate) is necessary to support the collagen synthesis.

 

There is also a laser based treatment that heats the collagen under the skin causing it to contract and also induce collagen synthesis.

 

There is also threading -- which causes collagen synthesis google "thread lift"

 

All these processes induce collagen synthesis due to micro injury of the collagen layer.

 

Also google "jack lalane facial exercises" - you can find on youtube

 

Most of these treatments take months (6-10 or more) to show results.

 

I have heard and done derma-needling. I still have the needles, the single needle for the number eleven's between the eyebrows, a derma stamp to needle the normal to deep forehead lines, and a dermaroller of 0.5 to roll anywhere I want. I hardly ever needled anywhere other than the forehead. I started having really good success with forehead lines. But I had to stop as I started to get really dark areas around on the same lines I dermastamped... I stopped and started again as I thought it was only my imagination. But no... they were getting darker... and that's why I started using Retin A and hydroquinone. I use Vitamin C E Ferulic every morning from Skin Ceuticals.

 

I had also started using Nuface, which is said to lift skin, but then that made me look more gaunt as I have nothing to lift, not much fat. But that would work for someone with round face that wants to contour his features.

 

For my forehead lines now I am using a device called Safetox... A person I know got rid of her very deep forehead lines COMPLETELY with it.

 

Looks like there is not much to do about plumpness. Other than injecting hyaluronic acid.   This same person had success with something similar to Lightstim,  but it is a bigger lamp and is called Infrared Mineral Lamp. (Or FIM Mineral Lamp). She was doing facial exercises that made her even more gaunt, and this Mineral Lamp, together with microcurrent (big ones used by professionals) brought her face back to normal and even more plump.

 

The problem for me is I have a hectic life style (travel a lot too) so I cannot do what others can, takes a lot of time.
 

Thanks Sensei for your feedback and I will have a look at that exercise

[Bellastella]

 

 

 

Derma-needling has been clinically proven to induce collagen synthesis.

 

It takes 1.5mm length needle for best results, at that depth utmost care for sterility of needles and skin are important.

 

High supplementation of Vitamin C (ascorbate) is necessary to support the collagen synthesis.

 

There is also a laser based treatment that heats the collagen under the skin causing it to contract and also induce collagen synthesis.

 

There is also threading -- which causes collagen synthesis google "thread lift"

 

All these processes induce collagen synthesis due to micro injury of the collagen layer.

 

Also google "jack lalane facial exercises" - you can find on youtube

 

Most of these treatments take months (6-10 or more) to show results.

 

Newer research from Dr. Lance Setterfield has shown that Dermarollers 0.5mm induce collagen. He has shown that even cosmetic rolls of 0.3mm can produce collagen via a different pathway than medical rolls.

https://www.facebook...doc.setterfield

 

Can you post a link to the research papers -- I would much rather use .3 or .5 ; .3 you really don't even need the numbing gel.

 

 

Yes that is a huge advantage to shorter needles. I remember rolling with a 2.0mm and it still hurt pretty bad with the numbing cream.

For most of the time I have rolled (3+ years) I have followed the advice of Sarah at owndoc.com who was basically following the advice of Dr. Fernandez.

 

With a 0.5mm you should not need numbing cream either. Dr.Setterfield say's that for best results you should incorporate both cosmetic and medical rolls into your routine. I personally don't care about product penetration. I'm interested in what the rollers themselves are doing.

I use a 0.75mm roller for medical rolls simply because I figure I'm a guy and our skin is a little thicker so just makes sense to me. Thinking outside the box if you will. I try to do cosmetic rolls every other night. Medical rolls once every 4 weeks.

 

http://beautymagonli...5-needling-09-1

 

 

 

Mustard Seed thanks for your input.  I have also bought everything from Sarah including the ointment you put afterwards.  Do you still roll? Do you also roll the good skin on your cheeks and sides of face? I was always afraid to roll good skin. Also the thing that annoyed me a bit is the redness I experience the day after... I used to dermastamp my forehead wrinkles every 3 days... so basically I always walked around with a red forehead.  I wanted to give Retin A a try on a daily basis, not just 3 times a week. Retin A twice or 3 times a week did nothing for me. So I had to choose what to do...basically I opted to stop the rolling. Again, I always rolled / stamped the forehead.

 

Are own doc roller medical or cosmetic? Do not know the difference.

[mustardseed41]

 

 

 

 

Derma-needling has been clinically proven to induce collagen synthesis.

 

It takes 1.5mm length needle for best results, at that depth utmost care for sterility of needles and skin are important.

 

High supplementation of Vitamin C (ascorbate) is necessary to support the collagen synthesis.

 

There is also a laser based treatment that heats the collagen under the skin causing it to contract and also induce collagen synthesis.

 

There is also threading -- which causes collagen synthesis google "thread lift"

 

All these processes induce collagen synthesis due to micro injury of the collagen layer.

 

Also google "jack lalane facial exercises" - you can find on youtube

 

Most of these treatments take months (6-10 or more) to show results.

 

Newer research from Dr. Lance Setterfield has shown that Dermarollers 0.5mm induce collagen. He has shown that even cosmetic rolls of 0.3mm can produce collagen via a different pathway than medical rolls.

https://www.facebook...doc.setterfield

 

Can you post a link to the research papers -- I would much rather use .3 or .5 ; .3 you really don't even need the numbing gel.

 

 

Yes that is a huge advantage to shorter needles. I remember rolling with a 2.0mm and it still hurt pretty bad with the numbing cream.

For most of the time I have rolled (3+ years) I have followed the advice of Sarah at owndoc.com who was basically following the advice of Dr. Fernandez.

 

With a 0.5mm you should not need numbing cream either. Dr.Setterfield say's that for best results you should incorporate both cosmetic and medical rolls into your routine. I personally don't care about product penetration. I'm interested in what the rollers themselves are doing.

I use a 0.75mm roller for medical rolls simply because I figure I'm a guy and our skin is a little thicker so just makes sense to me. Thinking outside the box if you will. I try to do cosmetic rolls every other night. Medical rolls once every 4 weeks.

 

http://beautymagonli...5-needling-09-1

 

 

 

Mustard Seed thanks for your input.  I have also bought everything from Sarah including the ointment you put afterwards.  Do you still roll? Do you also roll the good skin on your cheeks and sides of face? I was always afraid to roll good skin. Also the thing that annoyed me a bit is the redness I experience the day after... I used to dermastamp my forehead wrinkles every 3 days... so basically I always walked around with a red forehead.  I wanted to give Retin A a try on a daily basis, not just 3 times a week. Retin A twice or 3 times a week did nothing for me. So I had to choose what to do...basically I opted to stop the rolling. Again, I always rolled / stamped the forehead.

 

Are own doc roller medical or cosmetic? Do not know the difference.

 

 

Yes I still roll. Lil confused what you mean by "Do you roll the good skin?" I roll my whole face/neck/hands.
I also use a single needle for the #11 area and a couple of old acne scars. When you dermastamped your forehead so often, assuming it was one  0.5mm or longer, your skin was always in a state of inflammation and was never recovering from that. Sarah talks about that on her site.

Your getting results from using Retin-A 3 times a week whether you think you are or not. Many use that protocol. I use it every other nite. Retin-A helps repair the daily damage from UV rays. Assuming you use sunscreen correctly. This is not something that you are necessarily gonna see happening.

Owndoc sells both medical and cosmetic rollers. She considers 0.5mm and under cosmetic where Dr. Setterfield considers 0.5mm and over medical.

Edited by mustardseed41, 28 December 2014 - 05:31 PM.

[sensei]

 

 

 

Derma-needling has been clinically proven to induce collagen synthesis.

 

It takes 1.5mm length needle for best results, at that depth utmost care for sterility of needles and skin are important.

 

High supplementation of Vitamin C (ascorbate) is necessary to support the collagen synthesis.

 

There is also a laser based treatment that heats the collagen under the skin causing it to contract and also induce collagen synthesis.

 

There is also threading -- which causes collagen synthesis google "thread lift"

 

All these processes induce collagen synthesis due to micro injury of the collagen layer.

 

Also google "jack lalane facial exercises" - you can find on youtube

 

Most of these treatments take months (6-10 or more) to show results.

 

Newer research from Dr. Lance Setterfield has shown that Dermarollers 0.5mm induce collagen. He has shown that even cosmetic rolls of 0.3mm can produce collagen via a different pathway than medical rolls.

https://www.facebook...doc.setterfield

 

Can you post a link to the research papers -- I would much rather use .3 or .5 ; .3 you really don't even need the numbing gel.

 

 

Yes that is a huge advantage to shorter needles. I remember rolling with a 2.0mm and it still hurt pretty bad with the numbing cream.

For most of the time I have rolled (3+ years) I have followed the advice of Sarah at owndoc.com who was basically following the advice of Dr. Fernandez.

 

With a 0.5mm you should not need numbing cream either. Dr.Setterfield say's that for best results you should incorporate both cosmetic and medical rolls into your routine. I personally don't care about product penetration. I'm interested in what the rollers themselves are doing.

I use a 0.75mm roller for medical rolls simply because I figure I'm a guy and our skin is a little thicker so just makes sense to me. Thinking outside the box if you will. I try to do cosmetic rolls every other night. Medical rolls once every 4 weeks.

 

http://beautymagonli...5-needling-09-1

 

 

The study says collagen at 0.6mm.

 

Nothing on that page actually attributes collagen synthesis for sagging to .3 and .5 mm needles, just UV spots and wrinkles.

 

The supporting bands of elastin and collagen that support the face are mainly found in the dermis.  I find the evidence supports at least .5mm to get to the dermis and up to 1.5mm.

[mustardseed41]

It also say's the 0.5mm produced best results in the shortest time.

This was taken from his Facebook site:

 

Cosmetic vs Medical Needling

Typically, dermal needling is divided into "Cosmetic" and "Medical" based on the length of needles (Cosmetic: less than 0.5 mm; Medical: 0.5 mm and greater), and the depth reached in the skin (see diagram page 48). Cosmetic needling micro-injures the epidermis, and medical needling, the dermis. (Page 48 Concise Guide to Dermal Needling Expanded Medical Edition.)

There are two completely different pathways involved, both of which lead to increased collagen production.

A. The "cosmetic" pathway -- Initially it was believed that cosmetic needling only allowed greater absorption of products. However, keratinocyte injury triggers a cascade of cell-to-cell communication that leads to up-regulation of genes. This results in normal collagen production in the absence of inflammation, and the optimization of cellular function at a number of levels, both of which contribute to the anti-aging effect.

B. The "medical" pathway -- Injury at the dermal level triggers a completely different kind of cascade with platelets playing the predominant role. Platelets are like a first-aid kit containing growth factors and cytokines that are released at time of injury to facilitate repair. It is important to note that inflammation drives this process and when in excess, may lead to scar collagen or fibrosis. Thus, in the context of medical needling, best results are obtained by cancelling this negative effect through use of anti-inflammatory products and treatment modalities, such as LED.

 

Edited by mustardseed41, 28 December 2014 - 08:38 PM.

[sensei]

 

It also say's the 0.5mm produced best results in the shortest time.

This was taken from his Facebook site:

 

Cosmetic vs Medical Needling

Typically, dermal needling is divided into "Cosmetic" and "Medical" based on the length of needles (Cosmetic: less than 0.5 mm; Medical: 0.5 mm and greater), and the depth reached in the skin (see diagram page 48). Cosmetic needling micro-injures the epidermis, and medical needling, the dermis. (Page 48 Concise Guide to Dermal Needling Expanded Medical Edition.)

There are two completely different pathways involved, both of which lead to increased collagen production.

A. The "cosmetic" pathway -- Initially it was believed that cosmetic needling only allowed greater absorption of products. However, keratinocyte injury triggers a cascade of cell-to-cell communication that leads to up-regulation of genes. This results in normal collagen production in the absence of inflammation, and the optimization of cellular function at a number of levels, both of which contribute to the anti-aging effect.

B. The "medical" pathway -- Injury at the dermal level triggers a completely different kind of cascade with platelets playing the predominant role. Platelets are like a first-aid kit containing growth factors and cytokines that are released at time of injury to facilitate repair. It is important to note that inflammation drives this process and when in excess, may lead to scar collagen or fibrosis. Thus, in the context of medical needling, best results are obtained by cancelling this negative effect through use of anti-inflammatory products and treatment modalities, such as LED.

 

 

Like I said before -- link to a peer reviewed paper.

 

All the peer reviewed evidence I have seen states that collagen and elastin responsible for sagging or non sagging facial skin are in the dermis.

Edited by sensei, 28 December 2014 - 08:42 PM.

[mustardseed41]

 

 

It also say's the 0.5mm produced best results in the shortest time.

This was taken from his Facebook site:

 

Cosmetic vs Medical Needling

Typically, dermal needling is divided into "Cosmetic" and "Medical" based on the length of needles (Cosmetic: less than 0.5 mm; Medical: 0.5 mm and greater), and the depth reached in the skin (see diagram page 48). Cosmetic needling micro-injures the epidermis, and medical needling, the dermis. (Page 48 Concise Guide to Dermal Needling Expanded Medical Edition.)

There are two completely different pathways involved, both of which lead to increased collagen production.

A. The "cosmetic" pathway -- Initially it was believed that cosmetic needling only allowed greater absorption of products. However, keratinocyte injury triggers a cascade of cell-to-cell communication that leads to up-regulation of genes. This results in normal collagen production in the absence of inflammation, and the optimization of cellular function at a number of levels, both of which contribute to the anti-aging effect.

B. The "medical" pathway -- Injury at the dermal level triggers a completely different kind of cascade with platelets playing the predominant role. Platelets are like a first-aid kit containing growth factors and cytokines that are released at time of injury to facilitate repair. It is important to note that inflammation drives this process and when in excess, may lead to scar collagen or fibrosis. Thus, in the context of medical needling, best results are obtained by cancelling this negative effect through use of anti-inflammatory products and treatment modalities, such as LED.

 

 

Like I said before -- link to a peer reviewed paper.

 

All the peer reviewed evidence I have seen states that collagen and elastin responsible for sagging or non sagging facial skin are in the dermis.

 

 

Buy his expensive book if you want peer reviewed evidence. Rolling is no exact science yet. Much to be learned yet I'm sure. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Roll as you wish.

Edited by mustardseed41, 28 December 2014 - 09:08 PM.

[Bellastella]

 

 

 

 

 

Derma-needling has been clinically proven to induce collagen synthesis.

 

It takes 1.5mm length needle for best results, at that depth utmost care for sterility of needles and skin are important.

 

High supplementation of Vitamin C (ascorbate) is necessary to support the collagen synthesis.

 

There is also a laser based treatment that heats the collagen under the skin causing it to contract and also induce collagen synthesis.

 

There is also threading -- which causes collagen synthesis google "thread lift"

 

All these processes induce collagen synthesis due to micro injury of the collagen layer.

 

Also google "jack lalane facial exercises" - you can find on youtube

 

Most of these treatments take months (6-10 or more) to show results.

 

Newer research from Dr. Lance Setterfield has shown that Dermarollers 0.5mm induce collagen. He has shown that even cosmetic rolls of 0.3mm can produce collagen via a different pathway than medical rolls.

https://www.facebook...doc.setterfield

 

Can you post a link to the research papers -- I would much rather use .3 or .5 ; .3 you really don't even need the numbing gel.

 

 

Yes that is a huge advantage to shorter needles. I remember rolling with a 2.0mm and it still hurt pretty bad with the numbing cream.

For most of the time I have rolled (3+ years) I have followed the advice of Sarah at owndoc.com who was basically following the advice of Dr. Fernandez.

 

With a 0.5mm you should not need numbing cream either. Dr.Setterfield say's that for best results you should incorporate both cosmetic and medical rolls into your routine. I personally don't care about product penetration. I'm interested in what the rollers themselves are doing.

I use a 0.75mm roller for medical rolls simply because I figure I'm a guy and our skin is a little thicker so just makes sense to me. Thinking outside the box if you will. I try to do cosmetic rolls every other night. Medical rolls once every 4 weeks.

 

http://beautymagonli...5-needling-09-1

 

 

 

Mustard Seed thanks for your input.  I have also bought everything from Sarah including the ointment you put afterwards.  Do you still roll? Do you also roll the good skin on your cheeks and sides of face? I was always afraid to roll good skin. Also the thing that annoyed me a bit is the redness I experience the day after... I used to dermastamp my forehead wrinkles every 3 days... so basically I always walked around with a red forehead.  I wanted to give Retin A a try on a daily basis, not just 3 times a week. Retin A twice or 3 times a week did nothing for me. So I had to choose what to do...basically I opted to stop the rolling. Again, I always rolled / stamped the forehead.

 

Are own doc roller medical or cosmetic? Do not know the difference.

 

 

Yes I still roll. Lil confused what you mean by "Do you roll the good skin?" I roll my whole face/neck/hands.
I also use a single needle for the #11 area and a couple of old acne scars. When you dermastamped your forehead so often, assuming it was one  0.5mm or longer, your skin was always in a state of inflammation and was never recovering from that. Sarah talks about that on her site.

Your getting results from using Retin-A 3 times a week whether you think you are or not. Many use that protocol. I use it every other nite. Retin-A helps repair the daily damage from UV rays. Assuming you use sunscreen correctly. This is not something that you are necessarily gonna see happening.

Owndoc sells both medical and cosmetic rollers. She considers 0.5mm and under cosmetic where Dr. Setterfield considers 0.5mm and over medical.

 

 

MustardSeed, with good skin I meant the problem free skin. If I am not mistaken, Sarah had mentioned not to roll the good skin, that area where you're happy with. In my skin I never rolled cheeks or jaw, I always stamped and rolled my forehead. Maybe I am wrong and I should dermaroll my cheeks and mouth area too. My dermaroller is 1.0 though. My dermastamp (for pronounced lines) is 0.5 mm.

 

Regarding what you said about the fact that my skin was always inflamed after stamping, could be true and I will have a look again at the forum. Maybe I will need to dermastamp less frequent and milder.

 

Regarding Retin A, I will soon have to stop using it, especially if I will move to the Caribbean round end of January. Do you still use it in Summer where you are? I think I will be inviting more damage if I do.  I am using mineral sunscreens and I find them much better. I have both Marie Veronique organics, with an 18 % zinc, as well as Suntegrity, which I love so much. Suntegrity is amazing.

 

Thanks for clarifying cosmetic and medical rollers

[mustardseed41]

Sarah never mentions not to roll good skin. I've never heard anyone say not to roll good skin.

 

Yes I use Retin-A in the summer.  You will be inviting more damage if you are not cautious in the sun with sunscreen usage, hats, protective clothing. Remember, used correctly, Retin-A helps undue the daily UV damage.

[Bellastella]

Sarah never mentions not to roll good skin. I've never heard anyone say not to roll good skin.

 

Yes I use Retin-A in the summer.  You will be inviting more damage if you are not cautious in the sun with sunscreen usage, hats, protective clothing. Remember, used correctly, Retin-A helps undue the daily UV damage.

 

MustardSeed, what do you use after you roll? Did you ever try using Retin A after? Or just Vit C? and do you use the infadolan after you roll or the product of your choice straight away?

 

I think I will start again to roll with the 1.0 at least once every 4 weeks. And I will try to use it everywhere..not only on forehead.

 

I prefer to stay free of Retin A in the summer. Same goes for AHAs I think.

 

Thanks

[mustardseed41]

I use Retin-A and Vitamin C on cosmetic rolls (0.3mm) with no issues. I never use them both on the same day. I will wait maybe an hour after rolling to apply the C serum cause it stings pretty bad if I don't.

With medical rolls (0.75mm and up) I'll just spray my skin with some NAPCA then apply emu oil.

 

I used to use the Infadolan after medical rolls per Sarah's advice at owndoc.com. I still think it's a good way to go but darn greasy.

Edited by mustardseed41, 01 January 2015 - 03:46 AM.

[Bellastella]

I will try to start dermastamping again with my 0.5mm. I will try to avoid putting too much pressure when I stamp.. as that's how I had made  my lines look darker (pigmentation) I was damaging them too much and wasn't letting them heal therefore I stamped again after 3 or 4 days...

 

 

What is NAPCA if I may ask?

[wannabeageless]

This may be the product mustardseed referred to in the post above:

 

http://www.iherb.com...7-ml/42090/?p=1

 

 

[Bellastella]

This may be the product mustardseed referred to in the post above:

 

http://www.iherb.com...7-ml/42090/?p=1

 

Wow wannabe thanks.  I never ever heard of this product. Completely new to me.  Apparently it hydrates the skin really well.  Would be good to know if anyone tried it here.

[kurdishfella]

For me whey protein somehow helped not sure why. and immune system supplements vitamin e , c , a