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Sulbutiamine


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#1 stellar

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 08:02 PM


I'm very interested in this compound, it's been described as "the best cup of green tea you've ever had". I have yet to sample it for myself, but want to get some soon. It's a thiamine derivative and "its initial transport rate is 20-times faster than for thiamine." (PMID: 8186267, listed below)


Here are some abstracts:


: Pharmacol Biochem Behav. 1985 Aug;23(2):195-8. Related Articles, Links

Chronic administration of sulbutiamine improves long term memory formation in mice: possible cholinergic mediation.

Micheau J, Durkin TP, Destrade C, Rolland Y, Jaffard R.

Thiamine deficiency in both man and animals is known to produce memory dysfunction and cognitive disorders which have been related to an impairment of cholinergic activity. The present experiment was aimed at testing whether, inversely, chronic administration of large doses of sulbutiamine would have a facilitative effect on memory and would induce changes in central cholinergic activity. Accordingly mice received 300 mg/kg of sulbutiamine daily for 10 days. They were then submitted to an appetitive operant level press conditioning test. When compared to control subjects, sulbutiamine treated mice learned the task at the same rate in a single session but showed greatly improved performance when tested 24 hr after partial acquisition of the same task. Parallel neurochemical investigations showed that the treatment induced a slight (+ 10%) but significant increase in hippocampal sodium-dependent high affinity choline uptake. The present findings and previous results suggest that sulbutiamine improves memory formation and that this behavioral effect could be mediated by an increase in hippocampal cholinergic activity.

PMID: 4059305 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


1: Rev Electroencephalogr Neurophysiol Clin. 1982 Dec;12(4):373-8. Related Articles, Links

[Facilitation of a state of wakefulness by semi-chronic treatment with sulbutiamin (Arcalion) in Macaca mulatta]

[Article in French]

Balzamo E, Vuillon-Cacciuttolo G.

Cortical electroencephalographic (EEG) activities and nycthemeral states of vigilance organization were studied in 6 adult rhesus monkeys during subchronic administration (10 days) of Sulbutiamin, a synthesized derivative of thiamine (300 mg/kg/day). Sulbutiamin induced the following modifications: (1) In the EEG activities: increase in occurrence of fast rhythms (over 28 c/sec) during waking and also during slow sleep (SS) in which their amplitude doubled. SS spindles increased in number and amplitude. (2) In vigilance organization: waking was enhanced all along the 24 h recording and SS was reorganized (particularly at night), mostly light sleep: large decrease in stage 2 duration, increase in stage 1. REM sleep duration remained stable. These changes, occurring at around day 5 of the treatment, were more pronounced on day 10 and disappeared 2-5 days after withdrawal. This study demonstrated the clear action of Sulbutiamin upon the mechanisms regulating waking and light sleep.

PMID: 7170385 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



1: Biochim Biophys Acta. 1994 May 26;1222(1):7-14. Related Articles, Links

The compartmentation of phosphorylated thiamine derivatives in cultured neuroblastoma cells.

Bettendorff L.

Laboratory of General and Comparative Biochemistry, University of Liege, Belgium.

Thiamine transport in cultured neuroblastoma cells is mediated by a high-affinity carrier (KM = 40 nM). In contrast, the uptake of the more hydrophobic sulbutiamine (isobutyrylthiamine disulfide) is unsaturable and its initial transport rate is 20-times faster than for thiamine. In the cytoplasm, sulbutiamine is rapidly hydrolyzed and reduced to free thiamine, the overall process resulting in a rapid and concentrative thiamine accumulation. Incorporation of radioactivity from [14C]thiamine or [14C]sulbutiamine into intracellular thiamine diphosphate is slow in both cases. Despite the fact that the diphosphate is probably the direct precursor for both thiamine monophosphate and triphosphate, the specific radioactivity increased much faster for the latter two compounds than for thiamine diphosphate. This suggests the existence of two pools of thiamine diphosphate, the larger one having a very slow turnover (about 17 h); a much smaller, rapidly turning over pool would be the precursor of thiamine mono- and triphosphate. The turnover time for thiamine triphosphate could be estimated to be 1-2 h. When preloading the cells with [14C]sulbutiamine was followed by a chase with the same concentration of the unlabeled compound, the specific radioactivities of thiamine and thiamine monophosphate decreased exponentially as expected, but labeling of the diphosphate continued to increase slowly. Specific radioactivity of thiamine triphosphate increased first, but after 30 min it began to slowly decrease. These results show for the first time the existence of distinct thiamine diphosphate pools in the same homogeneous cell population. They also suggest a complex compartmentation of thiamine metabolism.

PMID: 8186267 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


1: Encephale. 2000 Mar-Apr;26(2):70-5. Related Articles, Links

[Effects of sulbutiamine (Arcalion 200) on psycho-behavioral inhibition in major depressive episodes]

[Article in French]

Loo H, Poirier MF, Ollat H, Elatki S.

Service Hospitalo-Universitaire de Sante Mentale et de Therapeutique, Hopital Sainte-Anne, Paris.

Psycho-behavioural inhibition is characteristic of major depressive disorder and frequently recedes after the other depressive symptoms. This may induce an important psychosocial impairment which could be a risk factor for relapse. METHODS: The aim of this eight weeks, multicentric, randomized, double blind, placebo controlled trial was to assess the efficacy and safety of sulbutiamine (Arcalion) [600 mg p.d.] on the symptoms of psycho-behavioural inhibition of inpatients with DSM III-R defined Major Depressive Episode (MDE) treated by adjusted doses of clomipramine [75 to 150 mg pd]. Moderate doses of hypnotics and anxiolytics without potential activity on the mood were authorized during the trial. The MDE was assessed with the MADRS, HAM-A and CGI scales. Patients who did not respond adequately to the antidepressant treatment were prematurely withdrawn from the trial. The three Sheehan Disability Scales (SDS), the Norris Visual Analogue Scale (VAS) and the Depressive Psychomotor Retardation Scale (ERD) were used to monitor psycho-behavioural inhibition. RESULTS: The mean intake scores were, as expected, fairly high: MADRS (32), HAMA-A (23), CGI (5) and ERD (27). The SDS and EVA scores showed that the patients felt severely handicapped in their social, professional and family life functioning as well as in their emotional, affective, cognitive and behavioural performances. At four weeks the MADRS, HAM-A and CGI scores indicated that the global improvement of the MDE was comparable in both treatment groups. However, the scores at the EVA and SDS scales showed that the patients treated with sulbutiamine were significantly less incapacitated than the placebo group in all of the various facets (affective, cognitive, emotional, behavioural) of psycho-behavioural inhibition. Furthermore, the safety data shows that both treatment groups were comparable and in particular that sulbutiamine had not induced any inappropriate behaviour, including suicide attempts, or mania. CONCLUSIONS: Sulbutiamine has no antidepressive effect but it can hasten the resorption of psycho-behavioural inhibition occurring during major depressive disorder and thereby facilitate the rehabilitation of patients in their social, professional and family life functioning.

Publication Types:

* Clinical Trial
* Multicenter Study
* Randomized Controlled Trial


PMID: 10858919 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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#2 geigertube

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 08:45 PM

Have you found any place to get this at? I couldn't turn up much. I think bulk nutrition is going to get it sometime early next year, but other than that..

steven

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#3 stellar

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Posted 17 December 2004 - 09:09 PM

Have you found any place to get this at?


It looks as though you can get it without prescription on some pharmacy websites. Just search by "Arcalion".
I guess Rizzer offered it at one time, and is supposed to get more in soon.
You could always drop an email with a suggestion to Beyond-A-Century. More competition between these retailers is good for us, the consumer.

#4 mentatpsi

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 03:13 PM

I found two locations for this chemical, one at Americannutrtion.com (http://www.americann...lbutiamine.html)

And the other on the Unique Nutrition website (http://www.uniquenut....asp?itemid=557)

Looking forward to trying it myself. Thanks for the post Stellar.

#5 zacky

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 03:15 PM

American Nutrition has fast service. I've bought some Oxiracetam from them. Never tried Sulbutiamine.

#6 hamishm00

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 03:17 PM

It really makes me feel like rubbish - like a tranquilizer.

It's also the VILEST powder I have ever tasted - like paint, only worse

#7 zacky

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 03:19 PM

Ick powders blow i would use caps. So it's for energy and memory?

#8 hamishm00

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 03:19 PM

www.bulknutrition.com has sulbutiamine usually (are they out of stock?) as well as oxiracetam, and piracetam. Cheap. Fast. Good service.

#9 zacky

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 03:21 PM

It's cheaper at bodybuilding.com.

#10 brotherx

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 04:21 PM

What makes you feel like rubbish? Sulbutiamine?

It really makes me feel like rubbish - like a tranquilizer.

It's also the VILEST powder I have ever tasted - like paint, only worse



#11 ortcloud

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 02:29 AM

Best cup of green tea you ever had ? what a weird comparison. Anyway, it sure wont taste like the best cup of tea you ever had, it is incredibly nasty tasting stuff.

Anyway, the "Sultan of Brunei" as I call it, is so stimulating that I cant even take it, amazing it makes you feel like you took a trank, I understand things hit people differently, but it is known for its stimulating properties, which is what it is primarly marketed for.

#12 hamishm00

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 12:23 PM

What makes you feel like rubbish? Sulbutiamine?


Yeah, tried it again last night - about 200mg - pretty much the same thing. I usually stack it with centrophenoxine, piracetam, but this time I tried it with some ephedrine HCL and caffeine as well. Similar effect - definitely slowed me down.

#13 quarter

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 01:37 PM

"Best cup of green tea you ever had"

That is actually a fairly good description of how I feel about Biotest Spike, which I believe has Sulbutiamine as the active ingredient.

#14 ortcloud

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 04:54 PM

I have never had a cup of green tea that was very stimulating, probably since green tea has l-theanine which blunts the sharp over stimulation of caffeine. So is this the effect you got ?

#15 quarter

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 01:48 PM

I have never had a cup of green tea that was very stimulating, probably since green tea has l-theanine which blunts the sharp over stimulation of caffeine. So is this the effect you got ?


I do get stimulated from green tea but in a positive non jittery way and this is the effect I got, but amplified.

Previous to taking up my current green tea drinking habit I had never drank tea/coffee or other caffeinated beverage (I was a very fussy eater as a child), perhaps I have a low caffeine thresehold (I note that there is also caffeine in the Biotest product).

#16 ortcloud

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 09:48 PM

ECGC is supposed to have stimulating properties too so maybe there is some extra stimulation beyond just the caffeine/theanine in it. For whatever reason I really havent experimented with ECGC by itself too much, which is odd as I have tried nearly everything out there.

#17 quarter

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 10:29 PM

I don't notice much of anything from my Now ECGC caps but do get stimulated from green tea bags or powdered green tea extract. Different people react differently to different things it would seem.

The biotest spike was a sucess for me while Ergopham AMP and Jarrow Chocomind made me feel ill but I have read others rave about them.

(This sounds like I take a lot of stims but I have actually only used each of these products a few times each.)

#18 mentatpsi

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 07:43 PM

A question however about the requirements for Sulbutiamine, for instance Piracetam requires higher levels of ACh to facilitate it, is Sulbutiamine the same? I'd imagine there'd be some information about the requirement if there were any, i just wonder if in combination with Piracetam i'll have to increase Choline intake even more so (Alpha GPC is expensive though if taken alongside Huperzine it's more cost effective). I also wonder if it acts a little on norepinephrine to illicit wakefulness or if it primarily acts through ACh (kind of like DMAE) and the areas of the brain associated with wakefulness without any increase on norepinephrine levels.

#19 Ghostrider

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 08:32 AM

I tried Sulbutiamine and could not discern any effect. It is pretty awful tasting though.

#20 mentatpsi

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 12:52 AM

I had an effect similar to DMAE at first, a heightening of presence but a lack of abstract thoughts, which is bothersome, but my experience could be due to a number of factors. I hear there's a comparison between Hydergine and Sulbutiamine, personally i feel Hydergine is much different than Sub, where Hydergine allows me to entertain thoughts with greater intensity when taken alongside Caffeine, Sub as said before makes me more present and more attending the environment in front of me (more vigilant). Personally i wouldn't recommend it for the purpose of academics based on my experience. An unrelated question, i hear there's such a thing as Timed Release Caffeine, any idea where to buy such a thing...

#21 revaaron

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 09:29 AM

I have to recommend sulbutiamine wholeheartedly. I find it to be the most useful stimulant around, preferable to caffeine, dextroamphetamine, vinpocetine, DMAE, adrafinil, or modafinil. For the record, caffeine doesn't stimulate me, just makes me feel like rubbish, oven sedated. I don't use it often, out of a gut feeling about tolerance (not sure if this has ever been demonstrated; an attitute overdeveloped by phenibut). It mixes well with other stimulants, and unlike dextroamphetamine, mixes well with GABAergenics. I don't know by what mechanism it works, but it does not _feel_ like a stimulant that works via modulation of the catecholamines or acetylcholine, and I class it in my own system more along the lines of ALCAR+ALA. It feels much cleaner and (for lack of better word) healthier. It mixes very well with other stimulants. It seems to increase athletic performance and interest in athletic movement, but without an increase in bounciness that usual stimulants cause in me- most stims give me energy that I need to use, and if not I feel uncomfortable. It is a useful eugeroic agent also, IMHO. On a night drive I find it more useful than d-amphetamine. However, I also find that it is not hard to fall asleep if I want/need to, a similarity to modafinil. It is a definate mood brightener, and works well as an adjunct to something with more a relaxant effect.

I've not noticed any requirement to supplement with a choline source. Something that is a must is either some food in the stomach, or perhaps some fish oil capsules or liquid. A combination of the two seems to be the best. Following that I have seen consistent results- coming on in 1-1.5 hours, effective for 6 hours. I have also taken it, in capsules, on an empty stomach with a glass of water and seen nothing happen. Since I figured out the oils or food thing I've not had any problem with it working, and as such I've not tested the effectiveness of dissolving it in alcohol or oil (I used to take my aniracetam suspended in fish oil).

One thing about sulbutiamine is dose- many people seem to be taking a lowish dose. I usually take one stuffed 00 gelcap, 550-600 mg. I've never had a need or desire to try more, though I've read on other forums of folks taking closer to a gram, up to 1.2 g.

What I say above applies to me, not any study, just my experience. Some of my words might sound a bit advertisement-ey, my apologies- I do dig sulbutiamine quite a bit. :)
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#22 mentatpsi

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 11:36 AM

when dealing with ADD it i find it best to focus on Dopamine and Norepinephrine (since ADHD seems to correspond with D4.7 receptor site which resemble a D2 Receptor site which is inhibitory by its nature), i don't know what i get out of Sub because i really feel my experience was too placebo induced, marked by my previous experience with DMAE (i'll have to make a post about it's lack of harm since a lot of people seem to be against it due to a research that showed it reduced the life span in Japanese quails. you guys should look up the necessary Choline intake for Japaneses quails and then compare that to the necessity of humans, and also note that when introduced to Mice and a type of fly it was shown to increase life, gotta love how wikipedia doesn't make mention to the animals tested).

I will be experimenting with it later as i have a desire to learn martial arts and will probably take a combination of sub alongside Rhodiola rosea, ginseng, and perhaps a couple nootropics probably low dose piracetam for it's ability to "center" the brain. Though i do agree with you that sub has stimulant like effects without the flaws, i find that it takes away from the abstract thoughts i enjoy so greatly, i enjoy being aware through vigilance, but abstract thinking is what allows one to expand the awareness through mental training by both justifying and interpreting the subjective experience.

I find Sub to expand upon the primitive observational abilities especially when taken alongside piracetam for multi task observation, but this was with my first try of it, my ability to drive and pay attention to various road conditions seemed to improve, alongside my ability to register sights and people, but emptiness occupied the mind, there was no depth that came to mind until a couple hours (~4) after intake.

Now when it comes to modfinal, it doesn't work on the CNS to produce stimulant effects, perhaps indirectly, it works by mechanisms within the hypothalamus, an area of the brain associated with sleep wake cycles (which is the master gland controlling the pituitary gland, which releases melatonin, based upon external light levels and carcidan rhythms, alongside other things). It most likely does have an impact on dopamine and norepinephrine level, but compared to Adderall it shouldn't be anything comparable .

Do make note that DMAE also has a antidepressant quality, also stimulates and promotes vigilance when sleep seems to be necessary, increase muscle tone, and gives you an athletic advantage, also heightens EEG (which i believe is what we're talking about with the Sleep wake cycles), similarities?

But going back to your experience i would like to hear more of what you felt and experienced, and the cognitive aspect of it, perhaps my negative side effects would have went away with persistence on taking it. Good luck though.

#23 desperate788

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 01:39 PM

Sulbutiamine as a instant concentration enhancer?

#24 Jacovis

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 01:35 PM

I've never tried Sulbutiamine but I have been using megadoses of Thiamine (300 mg+ at a time along with a B 50 Complex) for a good 3-4 years regularly.
There is definitely a nootropic effect in my system - I do have ADD (inattentive-type) symptoms though...
It seems to really increase my reading attention span substantially for at least a good 3-4 hours after I take a dose, my energy/endurance levels really increase (to the point where I can get too amped up almost), and I find myself better able to power through mundane/repetitive tasks like chores (though I still find it as hard as ever to make a start on tasks-once I've started though, the Thiamine helps to power me through them).
On the other hand, I've found that it can put me in an aggressive, introverted and irritable mood quite often. I have found that Carnosine (250-500 mg) taken with it helps for some of these symptoms - at least I feel less introverted with it.

I can definitely recommend it overall though - it's cheap, effective for me, and works consistently. Add some Caffeine and potentially other nootropics to it (I like a good quality Gingko Biloba extract and Bacopa) and you definitely get something quite effective...

#25 hamishm00

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 12:14 PM

I've never tried Sulbutiamine but I have been using megadoses of Thiamine (300 mg+ at a time along with a B 50 Complex) for a good 3-4 years regularly.
There is definitely a nootropic effect in my system - I do have ADD (inattentive-type) symptoms though...
It seems to really increase my reading attention span substantially for at least a good 3-4 hours after I take a dose, my energy/endurance levels really increase (to the point where I can get too amped up almost), and I find myself better able to power through mundane/repetitive tasks like chores (though I still find it as hard as ever to make a start on tasks-once I've started though, the Thiamine helps to power me through them).
On the other hand, I've found that it can put me in an aggressive, introverted and irritable mood quite often. I have found that Carnosine (250-500 mg) taken with it helps for some of these symptoms - at least I feel less introverted with it.

I can definitely recommend it overall though - it's cheap, effective for me, and works consistently. Add some Caffeine and potentially other nootropics to it (I like a good quality Gingko Biloba extract and Bacopa) and you definitely get something quite effective...



Stacked Sulbutamine prior to a gym session with green tea extract, yohimbe, Ashwagandha, guarana, machurian ginseng and L-Carnitine / ALA. This worked pretty well. I didn't get the usual ('i'm in a K-Hole reaction from Sulbutamine alone). This stack seemed to up the endurance / energy and reduced sensitivity to pain, but completely numbs the 'abstract' mind.

#26 desperate788

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 12:43 PM

I've never tried Sulbutiamine but I have been using megadoses of Thiamine (300 mg+ at a time along with a B 50 Complex) for a good 3-4 years regularly.
There is definitely a nootropic effect in my system - I do have ADD (inattentive-type) symptoms though...
It seems to really increase my reading attention span substantially for at least a good 3-4 hours after I take a dose, my energy/endurance levels really increase (to the point where I can get too amped up almost), and I find myself better able to power through mundane/repetitive tasks like chores (though I still find it as hard as ever to make a start on tasks-once I've started though, the Thiamine helps to power me through them).
On the other hand, I've found that it can put me in an aggressive, introverted and irritable mood quite often. I have found that Carnosine (250-500 mg) taken with it helps for some of these symptoms - at least I feel less introverted with it.

I can definitely recommend it overall though - it's cheap, effective for me, and works consistently. Add some Caffeine and potentially other nootropics to it (I like a good quality Gingko Biloba extract and Bacopa) and you definitely get something quite effective...


thanks for the insight.

#27 Steve_86

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 10:28 AM

Sorry for the bump. I'm wondering if anyone has any experience combining sulbutiamine with amphetamines(dex/adderall) or if there is any reason as to why they might be contraindicated?

#28 Heisenberg

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 07:14 AM

Sorry for the bump. I'm wondering if anyone has any experience combining sulbutiamine with amphetamines(dex/adderall) or if there is any reason as to why they might be contraindicated?


Good question, I asked myself the same thing. I am using Ritalin frequently, and have so far only had dismal results from sulbutiamine.

#29 rvdvaart

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 08:53 PM

Can anyone recommend a good place to buy Sulbutiamine? I searched Google and found a crazy array of prices

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#30 pycnogenol

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 10:51 PM

Can anyone recommend a good place to buy Sulbutiamine? I searched Google and found a crazy array of prices



http://www.relentlessimprovement.com/

Link to Sulbutiamine at Relentless:

http://supplements.r...amine-p226.aspx

Edited by pycnogenol, 06 July 2010 - 10:52 PM.





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