60 replies to this topic

[Infernity]

I was wondering what you guys would have done, unfortunately I couldn't answer that question, and that is the main reason I made the poll... [thumb]

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

Edited by infernity, 17 January 2005 - 04:24 PM.

[lightowl]

Good question. It seems complementary to this thread:

Would you be willing to fight to the death?
http://www.imminst.o...ST&f=118&t=4305

[randolfe]

A better way to ask this question might be:

"UNDER WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES WOULD YOU BE WILLING TO SACRIFICE YOUR LIFE TO SAVE ANOTHER OR OTHERS?"

I would be more inclined to sacrifice my life to save that of a child or much younger person than I would for an elderly person in a wheelchair.

I think I would willingly sacrifice my life if it meant saving the lives of several other people.

[eternaltraveler]

I would sacrifice my life for anyone I love, or any idea that I love. I consider the definition of love to be the valuing of something greater than you value yourself. If I value something more. It is therefore worth more to me than my life.

Of course I would rather find a solution where both me and the one/idea that I love would be able to continue existing

[Infernity]

randolfe, yeah maybe you're right, thanks, never mind, I'd love to see some people voting here anyway, so far there is no majority so it doesn't really makes any difference, but it is still nice and interesting to see the reasoning.
elrond, won't it be hard to just die for anything you love? I mean, after all- nothing comes for your good in this, it's not like you shall have a memory of it, a way to be proud of what you've done... and well about the combination :

Of course I would rather find a solution where both me and the one/idea that I love would be able to continue existing

Yeah, it would be nice, indeed [lol] .

Yours
~Infernity

[randolfe]

I am very suspicious of reasoning that would lead one to "give one's life for an idea". The patriotic soldiers of the Old South gave their lives for what they believed was a noble cause. So did the naive Germans defending Hitler in WWII. We see Islam fanatics becoming suicide bombers today.

Yes, those fighting against Hitler and Japan were dying for a "good" cause. The problem is that we have flawed judgement. An Islamic fanatic from Iran's Revolution in 1979 might well be a disillusioned "freedom fighter" today.

Dying for someone you love is a different matter altogether. If some mad person was attacking and attempting to kill a relative, a friend or even an acquaintance of mine, I would probably "risk death" by attempting to go to their rescue.

However, that does not mean I would needlessly sacrifice my life by running at someone firing an automatic weapon. Then again, seeing someone firing an automatic weapon and killing a loved one or a friend might so enrage me that I would go ballistic and attack the killer in a rage.

[Infernity]

randolfe, well said.

~Infernity

[susmariosep]

This might seem impertinent.

We are prone to talk about sacrificing one's life for others out of love.

The greater challenge is staying alive out of love for others; because you only die once, but you have to live everyday to stay alive out of love.

And now I can see the beauty in this ImmInst org: at least it should have that for its raison d'etre.

Susma

[Chip]

Heck, I voted for "Depends" basically for the same reasons as elrond though randolfe sure nailed the exceptions.

[eternaltraveler]

I am very suspicious of reasoning that would lead one to "give one's life for an idea". The patriotic soldiers of the Old South gave their lives for what they believed was a noble cause. So did the naive Germans defending Hitler in WWII. We see Islam fanatics becoming suicide bombers today.

The same can be said for the allied soldiers fighting Germany, and the northern army. If they were unwilling to make that sacrifice we may now be living on a Nazi planet.

Sure, you could look at it in the way that anyone who is willing to fight for an ideal is a bad thing because human judgment is flawed, but our judgment is all we have. If your judgment commits you to join these Islam fanatics that really is all you have to go by.

If you are unwilling to make the ultimate sacrifice for your ultimate ideals all you are doing is shooting your ideals in the foot because the person willing to sacrifice everything will beat you if you are not.

Life is one of my ultimate ideals. Ending the blight of involuntary death is something I am willing to fight for, and yes, even to die for (luckily I don't think it is a goal that is particularly useful in dying for).

And very often being willing to die for one's ideals is the same thing as being willing to die for one you love.

[eternaltraveler]

elrond, won't it be hard to just die for anything you love? I mean, after all- nothing comes for your good in this, it's not like you shall have a memory of it, a way to be proud of what you've done...

A great deal comes for my good in this. No, I might not have a memory of it, or be proud of it. But if I was still living and I had allowed my loved one to die then I certainly would have a memory of that. Having a memory of my cowardess that cost the life of someone I truely care about is not something I want to live with.

Of course it isn't even that. Not the fear of shame, though I would certainly have it. It's something else. I feel very confident that in a situation where there was no time to think about such outcomes I would still act. That is how I define love. The valuation of something greater than my own life, these valuations have already been made. I do not need to think about them.

[quadclops]

I voted for "Other."

Here's my reasoning.

[Infernity]

It has been a long time since the last post over this topic was advertised, this poll is one of my first posts, I asked this question because I am really curious, I thought about running it again because not much has answered that question. I actually do have an opinion about it now, but I'd like to first hear what is your reasoning and have a conversation about it.
In my opinion that may give rise to a very interesting conversation since I've seen quite alot of posts that leads to that point too and refering to that would have been going out off topic.
I remembered I made this poll once...
Let me know what is your argue about self sacrifice, I do have alot to discuss about it .

Yours
~Infernity

[Lazarus Long]

Since you ask I should point out that for many of us, especially those who are parents, this is not a hypothetical question. To be a parent requires self sacrifice and that is one of the inherently scary aspects of it to anyone who is honest about it.

To predicate the idea of sacrifice with a modifier of:

for someone I love, or someone I respect, or someone that I need, all misses the point that it is still about *me*. To ask would you sacrifice yourself for others in my mind is all about pragmatics and the key to the answer of "would it be worth it" depends greatly on the implied benefit and if that benefit meets my definition of a worthy success.

For example would it be worth it to sacrifice myself so all of you and others I love could live as long as you wanted?

Maybe but first I would want to know why this relationship of life and death has any validity and then I would consider it. If it were a serious option it would be worthy of consideration. However the more likely idea is one that involves an assumed risk.

Would I take a risk (say as an experimental subject) such that the outcome while only possibly contributing to my own benefit would help ensure a benefit to others even in failure, is one that I have done and would again consider if it became available.

I will say also that the alternative of would it be worth it to sacrifice all of you or even any of you individually, with or without your consent, such that I could live forever is not an option that I would entertain as ever legitimate.

Asking other humans to be sacrificed as a test of their love, devotion, conviction, loyalty, and commitment should be forever considered illegitimate IMHO.

However it remains a very valid question to ask ourself and how we each answer this quandary is dependent on the specific of risk/reward analysis for each cost benefit relationship. The cost (me) the benefit (X?) and it is not anyone else's decision and no two decisions are alike or really predictable.

Each such test of "integrity" (the amorphous honor) is a summation of probabilities that must be resolved in that exact moment and this is how we recognize the spectrum from heroism to cowardice after the fact. Before the fact is mere speculation devoid of certainty too subjective to be a valid determination IMHO.

Like Romeo and Juliet immaturely promising and then fulling their *immortal* pact with death for each other, ironically, I find it far more meaningful to promise to endure life's tribulations and shared joys committing to live on, rather than dying for another.

So if you want a more serious challenge don't think of them, or even the martyrs like Christ and Mohamed, imagine rather being Sisyphus, Prometheus, or Job. Imagine enduring their tortures and suffering and facing down the loss of all life's meaning and hope. Could you endure that promise of unending suffering for another?

Dying is easy by comparison especially if the promise of ending your own suffering assured others of some benefit but what if there is no promise and only a guarantee of suffering; could you all still find the courage to endure being alive?

Edited by Lazarus Long, 28 February 2005 - 11:53 PM.

[John Schloendorn]

I'm not sure if I would for any one person I know today. I would prefer to decide that spontaneously if the case arises. I was missing the option "for multiple others", since I think there are groups of people (such as 'all') for whom I probably would.
The good thing is that a 100% likelyhood of self-sacrifice should be relatively rare in real-life. Although I don't have much experience with situations like that, I'd say that usually you just have to take a risk of self-sacrifice, in order to save someone else. I suspect that I'd take even irrationally high risks if I saw a way out at all.

Sisyphus, Prometheus, or Job. Imagine enduring the torture and suffering and facing down the loss of all life's meaning and hope.

Heh, thats how I feel sometimes about locking myself up in a lab every day with all that sunshine 'n gals out there...

[Lazarus Long]

Heh, thats how I feel sometimes about locking myself up in a lab every day with all that sunshine 'n gals out there...

Sacrifice comes in many forms John but I am confident that you keep your eyes on the prize contemplating the rewards while enduring these tribulations. [glasses]

Right? )

Well then just grin and bear it [!] [tung]

I agree BTW about the 'others" (all or some) option and that was what I was alluding to in my post. It reminds me of a bad trek moment:

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one [alien]

I also agree that the reality of the choice is too elusive to be predicted with any great certainty and would require the culminating analysis of the events of the moment to force the decision and that was another aspect of my post.

[Infernity]

Laz,
Nice piece you wrote there!

could you all still find the courage to endure being alive?

Personally- definitely! Everything is better than that terrible oblivion, that horrible nothing which death "bestows". I really mean ANYTHING is better than this- the self-teaching possibility even in sorrowful life is a great part of the hope and gives reason to live. For as long as the *self* lives- there is a piece of a singular knowledge which worth the preservation.
When it comes to self sacrifice- since when you are dead all you are is- NOTHING (I always tend to think that no one gets the meaning of the 'nothing', I mean it is hard, but clear your mind for a second- I am talking about TOTAL NOTHING!), I think that my life worth sacrifice only for someone I:
1. love,
2. trust,
3. know for number-which-aspires-to-one-hundred-per-cent sure that he is seeing everything the same way I do (at least all of what I managed to see in him) which means-
4. will undertake to do my goals, since this is what he would have done anyway since these are his goals too,
5. that disagreement between us is nil...
6. If you didn't get the point now- you never shall (uploading maybe- well not only maybe- but till then.......)

100%

Heh, no such thing in my opinion...

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

[th3hegem0n]

Never.

I wouldn't die for you, for love, or even for everyone. However I would work hard and figure out a way to make it work out in the end.

[Infernity]

th3hegem0n,
Very understandable in my opinion!

Hopefully, I won't have to make that choice, not ever...
Living with the loss of the most important thing in your life (well except the life itself and the reason for living or the value in it, etcetera) or totaly NOTHING ... this shall be a dystopia for someone...

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

[kraemahz]

1. love,
2. trust,
3. know for number-which-aspires-to-one-hundred-per-cent sure that he is seeing everything the same way I do (at least all of what I managed to see in him) which means-
4. will undertake to do my goals, since this is what he would have done anyway since these are his goals too,
5. that disagreement between us is nil...

So, what you're saying Infernity is that you'd only give your life for a male clone of yourself .

I answered "no" but I'd say there are situations (saving the humankind or at least quite a few people) for which I could see sacrificing myself would be an option. I'd of course have to be completely sure my sacrifice wouldn't be in vain. This probably is just coming out of my love affair with the glorious falls of heroes since my indoctrination as a D&D geek though. Thinking about it, being remembered as a hero might be worth oblivion. Then again...probably not, but people sometimes do crazy things especially if there are big things on the line.

[Infernity]

(kraemahz)

So, what you're saying Infernity is that you'd only give your life for a male clone of yourself .

[bl:)]

~Infernity

(PM2M.S.E.I [>] Y.L.L.I)

[armrha]

1. love,
2. trust,
3. know for number-which-aspires-to-one-hundred-per-cent sure that he is seeing everything the same way I do (at least all of what I managed to see in him) which means-
4. will undertake to do my goals, since this is what he would have done anyway since these are his goals too,
5. that disagreement between us is nil...

So, what you're saying Infernity is that you'd only give your life for a male clone of yourself .

Spending eternity with someone that was exactly like me and shared my same goals is my idea of true torment. Hrm... Does that mean I have low self-esteem?

I just would hate to have to talk about the same thing all the time...

I don't know what I would sacrifice my life for. If it was a 100% certain that whatever I had to do would result in my death or someone I love, well... emotionally, I would say yes, as I feel it would be so painful to know I willingly accepted someone elses death over mine combined with the grief and loss of losing the person I loved.

Rationally, I think I would be able to grab control of myself and just reason that I can always just work hard to forget that such a horrible thing happened to me and it's likely I could heal-- I definitely couldn't heal from death. In emergency situations I tend to rely on my reasoning more then my emotional side, just shoving whatever panic or pain and trying to reason what the best thing I could do next would be. It's never panic. So I would have to assume that I wouldn't, but who knows given the case.

[Infernity]

armrha,

Does that mean I have low self-esteem?

No, it does not.

I just would hate to have to talk about the same thing all the time...

I can tell you have never experienced such thing then.

If it was a 100% certain that whatever I had to do would result in my death or someone I love, well... emotionally, I would say yes, as I feel it would be so painful to know I willingly accepted someone elses death over mine combined with the grief and loss of losing the person I loved.

You wouldn't know for 100% because there's no such thing. And that also means you are effected by prejudices and stigmas.

I tend to rely on my reasoning more then my emotional side

That's great, so am I

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

[armrha]

I can tell you have never experienced such thing then.
....
You wouldn't know for 100% because there's no such thing. And that also means you are effected by prejudices and stigmas.

I wouldn't be so quick to infer what has happened in my life.

I didn't say my reaction was 100% certain. I hypothesized that if the scenario was (100% certain), I might act in a way. I would never say I was 100% certain on an issue like this.
And no one is free from prejudice and stigmas. If there is one thing humans can't do, it's not pay attention...

[Infernity]

armrha,

I wouldn't be so quick to infer what has happened in my life.

Wouldn't you? ha!

I didn't say my reaction was 100% certain. I hypothesized that if the scenario was (100% certain), I might act in a way.

Heh well I've never seen something which is 100% , I realized what you meant, I just tend to think that the 100% never was...

And no one is free from prejudice and stigmas.

Oh well, no one has free will either.

If there is one thing humans can't do, it's not pay attention...

Oh, umm what did you say?, I didn't pay attention... [lol] just kidding heh. What makes you think that? I suppose I am not human in that case since I suppose I can do that... [huh]

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

[randolfe]

Armrha, I couldn't let your incorrect assumptions go without comment!

Spending eternity with someone that was exactly like me and shared my same goals is my idea of true torment. Hrm... Does that mean I have low self-esteem?

I just would hate to have to talk about the same thing all the time...

Your should read up on the literature and studies on identical twins. They have the closest mental and emotional bonds found in human life.

They create their own private language while growing up (twin-talk) which enables them to communicate in ways even their parents can't understand. They totally understand each other's thinking and emotional reactions. They can frequently finish each other's unfinished sentences.

Identical twins like the same music, foods and colors. They have similar abilities and tastes in athletics. However, they may differ more in specialized artistic abilities.

Identical twins are so close, the marriage of one can sometimes become an issue for the other. The twin who remains unmarried feels like they have lost "half their life" and sometimes are delighted when their married "other-half" divorce and return to being the primary figure in their life.

Sometimes one set of twins will marry another. This makes sense since the qualities one twin finds attractive, the other twin might also find attractive. However, studies show that married sets of twins do not find their individual twin's mate sexually attractive.

Frankly, I think finding a so-called 'clone' of oneself in a member of the opposite sex (if that is your preference) would be a great stroke of luck. You would probably have a close conflict-free marriage.

No fights over what TV show to watch. No arguments over what to spend money on.
Shared ectasy over music you both love. No differences over which restaurant to patronize or what kinds of food to cook for dinner. It might not all be pure heaven but it would be very close. You might argue over who contributed the most to the mess around the house if you didn't share a "neat gene".

Choosing a mate that totally shared your interests, attitudes and taste would be the exact opposite of "low self esteem". Choosing such a mate would be the equivalent of declaring to the entire world: "Hey, I'm great! I married the greatest person in the world. We're both so fabulous, we can't get enough of each other!"

Infernity, don't let these naysayers get you down. May you find that male who totally mirrors you own interests. And let me be the first to wish you "Happy Anniversary after Happy Anniversary after Happy Anniversay forever!"

[susmariosep]

Tedium


This is a thread in Free Speech forum. So I should not feel insecure that the powers here in this IOF (ImmInst Org Forum) might do some scissoring intervention of my words here.


Spending eternity with someone like myself has its pluses and its minuses. I speak from experience.

I had lived in boarding rooms with all kinds of people during my school days. Some roommates were assigned to me, no choice here. But others were chosen by myself.

Anyway, this is what I learned for myself which if I represent the man in the street or the proverbial everyman I think is typical of other people's.

It is boring to spend many hours a day, everyday with people who are like yourselves. Nothing new, nothing strange, nothing of challenge, nothing to get emotionally thrilled or depressed or disgusted about. No, this ain't living.

But the opposite is also not so feasible except when the degree of differences between my habits and those of my roommate(s) are not extremely diametrical as to prevent me from getting anything done which I had to get done, or any peace and quiet for rest and recuperation of my tired body and spirit.

The best mix therefore for me is just to have different people with a lot of commonalities but also a lot of differences in what I call the three domains of human interaction: the level of the mind, the level of the heart, and the level of the body.

I once had a grant from a German society advancing German culture among other peoples, the Goethe Institut, a grant namely to learn German in Germany, like the in situ setting of a laboratory experiment.

This was a one month intensive course in basic reading and spoken German. The people behind this program believe that they can make non-Germans read and speak German in a summer.

To make a long story short, I was assigned to stay in a room with three other guys, one from Turkey, another from France, and the third from Malaysia. I am from an English speaking country but also having a national language from its own ethnic origin.

Since we all four were of the what modesty aside I might call ourselves as reasonable kind of people, with academic background and an outlook toward a career in the professions, in government, or in business, or in the arts, yes, even in the campus or research establishments, we had a very good time among ourselves, notwithstanding coming from very different and in some instances conflicting social and cultural milieus.

If I had been assigned to stay in a room with similar guys from my country, I think I could have had a very hard time with them, mainly because of boredom. These guys would want to eat what we eat at home, talk about things of the home front, gripe about how things are terrible in the small German town where during summer it is still cold and wet most days.

No, I would rather spend my eternity with someone like myself but with a good dossier of differences to make our eternity exciting but not doomed to tense exasperation.

Susma

[emerson]

I wonder how many of the "No" voters have people who think they'd be getting a ride on the sacrificail protection train if needed.

[Infernity]

(Susma)
This is a thread in Free Speech forum. So I should not feel insecure that the powers here in this IOF (ImmInst Org Forum) might do some scissoring intervention of my words here.

Oh gee many thanks to Laz- not anymore.

Hmmm, maybe I should ask my friends what they would do, but I must consider non of them is an immortalist, and the very most are not aware to the reasonable reasoning of death being oblivion.

-Infernity

[alpha_omega]

I wouldnt sacrifice myself for anyone, as infernity said, death is oblivion, when your dead, its as if you had never lived, and the universe never existed, if i die the universe might aswell be destroyed, i'd be indifferent to it
a lot of people dont understand, but it is impossible to imagine oblivion, if you think you're imagining it your wrong, if your imagining a black space then that is not oblivion, its impossible to imagine nothing

Also a lot of people keep saying about how fighting germany and japan in WWII was for a good cause, and that we were fighting the forces of evil, but as always, history is written by the winners, if the axis had won WWII then we, the allies, would have been seen as the evil oppressors who held back germany from its potential, and that hitler was a hero, fighting for german freedom
although germany did commit some war atrocoties, it is likely the allied forces did aswell,