Selegiline + Idebenone
computeTHIS 07 Oct 2011
The first day was incredible, so much energy and creativity. For some reason I decided to start playing sports left handed to see if I could become somewhat ambidextrous on Idebenone, and I actually had fun, whereas previous attempts were more frustrating without Idebenone. Things that I was more interested in as a child came rushing back to me, and I was up till 7am thinking about things I wanted to do. Not even 5mg of Melatonin helped. I woke up 5 hours later well refreshed.
Today is day 2 of taking 180mg (Primaforce) Idebenone with my Selegiline. I would probably prefer to take half a capsule but I really don't feel like popping it open every time and trying to "cut" the powder. Day 2 is pretty much the same as day 1. I think I'm realizing though that it's making my ADHD more difficult to control as I'm struggling to take the time to get important things done, if nothing else Idebenone is wonderful for anhedonia.
For those concerned about the oxidative effects of Idebenone, I might recommend taking Melatonin at the end of the day for its antioxidant properties and mitochondrial protection. Melatonin is not helping me sleep, however, but rather giving me a "blunted" feeling.
From http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/11462772:
Free radical-mediated molecular damage. Mechanisms for the protective actions of melatonin in the central nervous system.
Reiter RJ, Acuña-Castroviejo D, Tan DX, Burkhardt S.
Source
Department of Cellular and Structural Biology, Mail Code 7762, The University of Texas Health Science Center At San Antonio, 7703 Floyd Curl Drive, San Antonio, TX 78229-3900, USA. Reiter@uthscsa.edu
Abstract
This review briefly summarizes the multiple actions by which melatonin reduces the damaging effects of free radicals and reactive oxygen and nitrogen species. It is well documented that melatonin protects macromolecules from oxidative damage in all subcellular compartments. This is consistent with the protection by melatonin of lipids and proteins, as well as both nuclear and mitochondrial DNA. Melatonin achieves this widespread protection by means of its ubiquitous actions as a direct free radical scavenger and an indirect antioxidant. Thus, melatonin directly scavenges a variety of free radicals and reactive species including the hydroxyl radical, hydrogen peroxide, singlet oxygen, nitric oxide, peroxynitrite anion, and peroxynitrous acid. Furthermore, melatonin stimulates a number of antioxidative enzymes including superoxide dismutase, glutathione peroxidase, glutathione reductase, and catalase. Additionally, melatonin experimentally enhances intracellular glutathione (another important antioxidant) levels by stimulating the rate-limiting enzyme in its synthesis, gamma-glutamylcysteine synthase. Melatonin also inhibits the proxidative enzymes nitric oxide synthase and lipoxygenase. Finally, there is evidence that melatonin stabilizes cellular membranes, thereby probably helping them resist oxidative damage. Most recently, melatonin has been shown to increase the efficiency of the electron transport chain and, as a consequence, to reduce election leakage and the generation of free radicals. These multiple actions make melatonin a potentially useful agent in the treatment of neurological disorders that have oxidative damage as part of their etiological basis. PMID: 11462772 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
unregistered_user 07 Oct 2011
computeTHIS 07 Oct 2011
lourdaud 07 Oct 2011
I'm currently taking 200 mg of CoQ-10 daily and I'm still young, would I nonetheless benefit a lot more from Idebenone, or what do you think?
I also take NAC and ALA and drink a lot of green tea. Can't say that I notice much of a difference from taking all this stuff, but feels good telling myself I'm somewhat mitigating all the damage done by dexamphetamine.. hah.
computeTHIS 07 Oct 2011
It's difficult to say that you would benefit. Textbook neuroscience data shows a beginning decline in brain mass somewhere around age 22-24 (can someone find this info?). I don't think I would take it if I were any younger than that.
I think I'm going to cycle this supplement, I feel like I've gained that which I was trying to recover. It has also reinforced the notion that I have some dopamine deficiency, in that I'm now more focused on activities that are more stimulating, which is a bit problematic.
unregistered_user 07 Oct 2011
Lots of questions... thanks for answering.
computeTHIS 08 Oct 2011
computeTHIS 15 Oct 2011
unregistered_user 16 Oct 2011
sam7777 16 Oct 2011
nupi 20 Nov 2011
JChief 20 Nov 2011
Edited by JChief, 20 November 2011 - 01:19 PM.
X_Danny_X 20 Nov 2011
computeTHIS 20 Nov 2011
Can you comment on how it feels more than a month later? I am looking for something sustainable exactly along those lines...
I took it earlier this morning, with about a month's cessation from it. It seems to have very nearly the same original effects on feelings of empathy and energy. If you think of it in terms of neural growth and repair via mitochondrial mechanisms, it makes sense that there would be some initial drastic changes followed by tolerance. But continued intake will likely be neuro-protective, ensuring neural growth and survival versus neural decline.
I've read that pyrroloquinoline quinone (PQQ) combined with CoQ10 has similar nootropic effects. I'll be trying that next, and it may be a more economical alternative to Idebenone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PQQ
Edited by computeTHIS, 20 November 2011 - 06:42 PM.
X_Danny_X 20 Nov 2011
but what about healthy adults? what data do you have?
Edited by X_Danny_X, 20 November 2011 - 07:20 PM.
computeTHIS 20 Nov 2011
is PPQ only available through prescription or can you buy it at a store? seems PPQ enhances memory and cognitive function on people with learning disabilities.
but what about healthy adults? what data do you have?
I've found it widely available online, I think I ordered mine from swansonvitamins.com.
I'm referring to these effects described on the Wikipedia page, from which you can check its sources:
Neuroprotection
PQQ is a potent neuroprotective nutrient that has been shown to protect memory and cognition in both aging animals and humans.[35][36] It has been shown to reverse cognitive impairment caused by chronic oxidative stress in pre-clinical models and improve performance on memory tests.[37] PQQ supplementation stimulates the production and release of nerve growth factor in cells that support neurons in the brain,[38] a possible explanation for the marked improvement of memory function it produces in aging humans and rats.
PQQ has also been shown to safeguard against the self-oxidation of the DJ-1 gene, an early step in the onset of Parkinson’s disease.[39]
PQQ protects brain cells against oxidative damage following ischemia-reperfusion injury—the inflammation and oxidative damage that result from the sudden return of blood and nutrients to tissues deprived of them by stroke.[40] Reactive nitrogen species (RNS) arise spontaneously following stroke and spinal cord injuries and impose severe stresses on damaged neurons, producing a significant proportion of subsequent long-term neurological damage.[41] PQQ suppresses RNS in experimentally induced strokes,[42] and provides additional protection following spinal cord injury by blocking inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS), a major source of RNS. [43]
In animal models, administration of PQQ immediately prior to induction of stroke significantly reduces the size of the damaged brain area.[44] These observations have been extended in vivo by showing that PQQ protects against the likelihood of severe stroke in an experimental animal model for stroke and brain hypoxia. [45]
PQQ interacts beneficially with the brain’s neurotransmitter systems. It protects neurons by modifying the N-Methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor site[46][47] and mediating excitotoxicity—the damaging consequence of long-term overstimulation of neurons that is associated with many neurodegenerative diseases and seizures. [48][49][50][51]
PQQ also protects the brain against neurotoxicity induced by other powerful toxins, including mercury[52](a suspected factor in the development of Alzheimer’s disease[53]) and oxidopamine[54] (a potent neurotoxin used by scientists to induce Parkinsonism in laboratory animals by destroying dopaminergic and noradrenergic neurons[55]).
PQQ prevents development of alpha-synuclein, a protein associated with Parkinson’s disease.[56] PQQ also protects nerve cells from the oxidizing ravages of the amyloid-beta protein linked with Alzheimer’s disease,[57] and works preventatively to block new amyloid beta molecular structures from forming before they can cause any damage.[58]
Cognition
PQQ has been shown to promote memory, attention, and cognition in animals[59] and humans.
In a double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial conducted in Japan in 2007, supplementation with 20 mg per day of PQQ resulted in improvements on tests of higher cognitive function in a group of 71 middle-aged and elderly people aged between 40-70, who outperformed the placebo group by more than twofold in their standardized memory tests. [60]
Interestingly, the results of the study also suggest a synergistic relationship between PQQ and the nutrient coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10), which further amplified performance on standardized memory tests when subjects also took 300 mg per day of CoQ10. No adverse effects were linked to the supplementation, and the results demonstrated that PQQ, especially when combined with CoQ10, can be used to improve mental status and quality of life in older patients, and help slow or prevent age-related cognitive decline in middle-age patients.
X_Danny_X 21 Nov 2011
i will combine this with alcar.
JChief 21 Nov 2011
manic_racetam 22 Dec 2011
I've been taking it for 3 days now. I wasn't expecting any subjective effects at all, I simply wanted to benefit from it's antioxidant properties. But honestly I'd say this stuff has increased my energy levels tremendously. I ordered a few things that I started at the same time (choline citrate, aniracetam, etc) so it's difficult to discern which sup is causing which effect or if it's a mix between them all. Don't really care at this point, I'm able to exercise again (finally have the energy to do it!) and that alone is a huge step.
Anyway, I've been taking 500mg idebenone in the morning and I've been feeling great. My urine is a very rusty shade of brown but I read from google that it's supposedly harmless.
For reference, my stack for the last three days has been
Choline Citrate 1000mg
Inositol 1000mg
Noopept 30mg (transdermal application)
Aniracetam 750mg (no mania so far)
tianeptine (Stablon) 12.5mg x 3
BCAA's 25gs
Whey Protein 60gs
Vit C 2000mgs
Idebenone 500mgs
BHT 250mgs
Acyclovir 400mgs
Ultravioletbllc 27 Jul 2013
Ps for the first two weeks high dosage Alcar was a must for me with Deprenyl if not I'd be napping like the proverbial cat
Ultravioletbllc 27 Jul 2013
panhedonic 19 Aug 2015
Guys, let's keep talking about this
Any updates, anyone? PQQ, Idebenone?