31 replies to this topic

[Iceebear19727]

I was on probation for 2 years for getting caught with Adderall and I just finished that sentence yesterday. I got an rx for it and began by taking 10mg yesterday.

It had no effect! Well, no good ones anyway.. I took another 1 hr later and still nothing appreciatable.. I was a tad jittery and became grumpy and apathetic after about 4 hours.. I took 10mg this morning and now I just really want a nap.

Two years ago, I loved them. I usually took 20mg a day but 10mg worked pretty well. I didn't use them recreationally.

Why would after two years, when my tolerance should be low, would Adderall have complete opposite effects?

Because I assumed my tolerance would start building, I began taking 100mg Mg Taurate at night and 60mg Delsym DXM each morning for about a week.

What happened to my brain??

EDIT: I did not take any Mg the night before or DXM this morning with my 10mg Adderall

Edited by Iceebear19727, 13 October 2011 - 04:31 PM.

[Iceebear19727]

No one has any ideas? What about generics? I definitely think there are differences between brands.. Back two years ago, I took blue ones from Barr. Has Barr changed their formulations since then? I just don't understand how the only effect I get is wanting to take a nap, being sleepy...

Help?

Edited by Iceebear19727, 14 October 2011 - 05:52 AM.

[chrono]

I can only say that I've had adderall prescriptions off and on for about 7 years, and always found different brands to work without much noticeable variation (generics included).

It could be a change in your neurochemistry...reactions to drugs do change over time, though I'm at a loss to explain why it would have such a paradoxical effect. I'll do a little searching this weekend to see if I can come up with anything else.

I suppose it could be the taurine and dxm, as well, since they could be a confounding factor in whatever's going on, even if they're not the main cause. Taking some more days off from those and trying again would probably be a good thing to try.

[Iceebear19727]

I'm not sure if it is worth mentioning but I now am on levothyroxine for Hypothyroidism.. I also took bupropion for about 9 months and ended it July 9th..

Do you believe it would be a good idea to not take an addy every day ? Or do you think there is a chance the effects may return so I should keep trying ?

Edited by Iceebear19727, 14 October 2011 - 04:48 PM.

[computeTHIS]

I was on Adderall for roughly 2 years before going to something with fewer effects. I noticed that if I took Adderall while hungry, it had a sedating effect more powerful than Benedryl or anything else.

I also built up a tolerance for it, and I refused to go above 5mg so I would go for long periods (days, maybe a couple weeks) to lower my tolerance. This was only partially effective, as the rebound effects became terrible. I'm glad for not taking it anymore, its benefit is only temporary and its long-term effects suck. I would recommend reading www.biopsychiatry.com for some things that might be more beneficial.

Tolerance builds with the frequency of dosing, as well as with the dosage amount. Rebound effects (or withdrawl) also becomes worse with higher frequencies and dosages. That's why the amphetamines are largely a dead end.

[Iceebear19727]

I was on Adderall for roughly 2 years before going to something with fewer effects. I noticed that if I took Adderall while hungry, it had a sedating effect more powerful than Benedryl or anything else.

I also built up a tolerance for it, and I refused to go above 5mg so I would go for long periods (days, maybe a couple weeks) to lower my tolerance. This was only partially effective, as the rebound effects became terrible. I'm glad for not taking it anymore, its benefit is only temporary and its long-term effects suck. I would recommend reading www.biopsychiatry.com for some things that might be more beneficial.

Tolerance builds with the frequency of dosing, as well as with the dosage amount. Rebound effects (or withdrawl) also becomes worse with higher frequencies and dosages. That's why the amphetamines are largely a dead end.

ummmmmm...okay? 0_o maybe I don't plan on taking it the rest of my life.

Anyone else have more helpful input?

[manic_racetam]

If it were me I'd be more interested in the levothyroxine. Seems like that's the only wild card as far as a medicinally different intake compared to your last go at it. Might want to research on that a bit even though it's quite counter-intuitive.

[Iceebear19727]

Okay, ill look, even though a quick Google search didn't yield anything..
I've also tried Dexedrine IR and XR and Focalin and those had no effect as well..I tried those medications before I started the bupropion and my hypoT treatment though...

Edited by Iceebear19727, 15 October 2011 - 04:14 PM.

[Iceebear19727]

No one? =\

[longevitynow]

Your adrenals/HPA axis are fried. It is waking up part of your brain but likely some of your adrenal hormones are low and/or stay low and/or get low after taking it (cortisol, dhea, pregnenolone). Taking some DHEA or Cortisol or adrenal supplements may help.

[thedevinroy]

This seems to be a common problem with repeated use. I would imagine LongevityNow is on the money. You have depleted an important systematic co-factor, whether it be adrenal fatigue or not is a matter of your chemistry, but I've heard that before reported with amphetamine long term use. There is also some speculation on permanent receptor regulation/damage.

I'd go on Selegiline or Hordenine (or another MAO-B inhibitor... even olive oil) as soon as you can to let your dopaminergic pathways recover while simultaneously treating your problem. There is no current time released Hordenine, but you can try it with meals. Despite the idea that MAO-B inhibitors increase dopamine effects, they will over time cause your system to produce less dopamine since more is being recycled. Consequently, your nervous system will use the amino acids in other systems, possibly helping your thyroid as well (tyrosine, a dopamine precursor, is used with iodine to make some thyroid hormones).

EDIT: http://www.bodybuild...rex/lipo6x.html is a timed release Hordenine format and also contains other thyroid stimulants as well. Still on the look out for a pure tablet, but the mixes might work, too. Did a thread earlier on making your own extended release. Seems lecithin and stearic acid was the easiest way to try.

Edited by devinthayer, 18 October 2011 - 03:14 PM.

[Iceebear19727]

So you believe that even though I was sober for 2 years, my adrenals still may be that greatly affected? It's so strange because when I got caught, I was taking them a couple times a week and saw no lessening of effects. Everything was great. So I assumed I would take a pill and get the same effects I got back then. What do you think happened during the break?

[thedevinroy]

So you believe that even though I was sober for 2 years, my adrenals still may be that greatly affected? It's so strange because when I got caught, I was taking them a couple times a week and saw no lessening of effects. Everything was great. So I assumed I would take a pill and get the same effects I got back then. What do you think happened during the break?

It's hard to say... but I noticed a similar problem with Strattera. When I first started taking it, I was taking 20mg with great results. However, I stopped, and when I started again, I was taking 40mg with varying results. I believe my body decided to clean itself of the drug, which it considered an invading toxin, and in response, it prepared for its return.

The immune system does a similar thing with vaccines. It discovers a dead virus, says, "Haven't seen this one before, better gear up for it." and it learns how to make antibodies. I suspect other organs are capable of this learning. Hence, you may never get the same effect from Adderall ever again. Your adrenal glands may have learned of it and prepared for its invasion.

EDIT: MAO-B inhibitors are another mechanism of action with a similar effect. It is much less stimulating, but the results are still comparable against ADHD in comparison with stimulants. Your body may decide it doesn't have to worry about amphetamines anymore after being on MAO-B inhibitors for a while (maybe a few years) and put down its defenses, so to speak, but it's impossible to say... It's just a theory I have. Obscure as it is, your thoughts on this theory might take you somewhere down a path of enlightenment.

Edited by devinthayer, 18 October 2011 - 05:40 PM.

[Iceebear19727]

Haha I like the way you put that.. Dang well I hope not! I'm glad someone has experienced something like this though. I am in the process of getting my hormone levels back to normal as my doctor only put me on levothyroxine and did not test for free T3 or free T4..

Thanks for your reply, most helpful so far

EDIT: I do have selegiline hiding in my cabinet. You think it is worth a try?

Edited by Iceebear19727, 18 October 2011 - 05:42 PM.

[thedevinroy]

Haha I like the way you put that.. Dang well I hope not! I'm glad someone has experienced something like this though. I am in the process of getting my hormone levels back to normal as my doctor only put me on levothyroxine and did not test for free T3 or free T4..

Thanks for your reply, most helpful so far

EDIT: I do have selegiline hiding in my cabinet. You think it is worth a try?

I just took Selegiline a few hours ago for the first time. I can't tell if it is working for my ADHD yet, but I can tell you that it makes the world happier, brighter, and more colorful. If it weren't for the increase in tooth ache I get from dopaminergics, I'd probably have a better idea. I just downed a bunch of Picamilon and Huperzine A to kill the pain, so I no longer just have the Selegiline in my system to really tell you. Definitely some stimulating effects, but also that relaxing antidepressant feel, too.

Hopefully tomorrow I won't eat so many things that will irritate my tooth, and I can give a good solid report. Man I can't wait to get this gosh darn problem yanked. Days like this make me want to pull it out myself... anyhow...

Yeah, go for it. It's more or less good for you, assuming you don't mix it with too much tyramine, phenethylamines, or stimulants. A little won't kill you, especially not at 5mg taking it once. Some people tolerate interactions quite well. I'm not getting any shaking from it, even when taking it with Methylene Blue + Vitamin C. Though that could be the Picamilon Huperzine combo preventing overstimulation of calcium channels... damn tooth, messing up my advice.

Yeah it should be fine.

[Iceebear19727]

Awesome, I would definitely like to hear your reactions to it. I did take 5mg one time but didn't notice any difference. Is it common to take maybe 10mg or more a day?

[thedevinroy]

Yeah kids can take 5mg. Adults can take up to 20mg.

Man I started getting twitches from the Methylene Blue interaction... I was like so loopy and weird. I knew I had serotonin overload and knew I made a huge mistake. I thought... I need vitamin B6 and magnesium. It will convert my serotonin to melatonin. I check the desk in the other room, and found a bag of almonds. Saved my fricking life. Twitching is cut way down, and my head is clear again. Thank God for almonds. Keep a handful by your side if you are scared.

EDIT: Now I am tired... *yawn* .... need a nap now.

Edited by devinthayer, 18 October 2011 - 07:19 PM.

[Iceebear19727]

Oh man! Thanks for the tip! Why did you take the methylene blue if you had never taken Selegiline before? lol

[thedevinroy]

Oh man! Thanks for the tip! Why did you take the methylene blue if you had never taken Selegiline before? lol

The pain! I was like, wouldn't it be nice to relax from all this pain? It made sense at the time... after drinking it and feeling the pain go away, I had the other problem to worry about. It wasn't such a big deal. I just won't do it again.

[manic_racetam]

Wow... this thread took an unexpected twist! Eh... I wouldn't take selegiline if you have any intention of taking more adderall anytime soon. Even if the Adderall is making you sleepy it's generally a bad idea to mix it with selegiline. Hypertensive crisis... Uhhggh... just the sound of it makes me cringe.

Anyway, this selegiline + amphetamine combo has been discussed before. Here's a link from earlier this year. It's something to check out.

PS Devin: That MB is a bitch to monitor dosage with. It always seems like a tempting yet terrible idea... not sure what that's about. I was using it as an anti-depressant for a few days but it's so unpredictable I decided to stop. I'm actually not entirely sure if it is what caused the depression in the first place though...hmm

[Iceebear19727]

I took 10mg Adderall around 9am and 5mg Selegiline around 4pm. Didn't notice any effects from the latter. Effects are felt pretty quickly after the first dose, correct? As opposed to taking a few weeks to kick in?

Manic, you think what Devin says might be true? That my body has built up a defense to the drug?

Also, does anyone off the top of their head have any links that are good at explaining how mao-b inhibitors, dopamine reuptake inhibitors, etc, all work? I've been studying this stuff for a couple of years now but I still couldn't really explain it to anyone if they asked. I just would like a clearer understanding of what I'm wanting to take

[thedevinroy]

Wow I didn't realize you were insisting on still taking Adderall while on Selegiline. No. Just plain no. Take them far apart from each other.

Dopamine Re-Uptake Inhbitor means that your nerve cells decide to hold on to their dopamine instead of letting them go outside synapse to be broken down into metabolites by enzymes. The "uptake" simply means that there is a transporter, or a gate, that moves a transmitter from one side of the synapse to the other. If you block the gate, no dopamine can get out (or re-enter, which is less likely because of osmosis) of the synapse. Amphetamines inhibit DAT and NET.

A release agent is a similar molecule in structure to a transmitter, but gets caught in a vesicle (a storage tank) leaving less room for the real neurotransmitters, allowing them to run wild and free. Amphetamines do this to the VMAT transporter, leaving the storage tank of less dopamine, norepinephrine, and adrenaline.

An MAO-B inhibitor means that the dopamine, norepinephrine, and phenethylamine outside or inside the synapse will not be broken down by MAO-B because it is caught up with the inhibitor. An inhibitor can be a pure substrate (competitive inhibition), a reversible inhibitor (substrate pops out when a more appropriate substrate comes along), or an irreversible inhibitor (the co-factor can't get in or the substrate can't get out). Selegiline is irreversible, it permanently disables MAO-B.

The combination of the two (and three) is potentially dangerous. The nervous system does use a fair amount of MAO-B to break down dopamine and norepinephrine. If the MAO-B in the synapse is inhibited, a large amount of dopamine and norepinephrine will build up when the amphetamine releases the dopamine, norepinephrine, and adrenaline and then blocks their exit into the blood stream to be disposed of. Once a few catechelomines escape the synapse, they may be recycled back into the synapse because they are not being broken down properly in the blood stream. The laws of osmosis basically slow down their net exit into the blood stream.

Understand?

Edited by devinthayer, 19 October 2011 - 04:07 PM.

[Iceebear19727]

I think so.

I was aware they were dangerous but because the Adderall had worn off, I felt I could take the selegiline. After Googling earlier, I see my mistake.
Questions:
1) Why exactly are the amounts of dopamine, norepinephrine, and adrenaline that come from taking the two together dangerous?
2) How would I know that something bad is happening from it?
3) How is it irreversible?
4) Why would you want to take anything irreversible?
5) How long should one wait between taking the two?

Yesterday, I felt nothing taking those. Today, I took 10mg at 8am and haven't felt anything either. I just wanted to see if I would feel anything immediate like you did. Tomorrow, I don't know what I'm gonna do. I can't decide what path to take(no pun intended)... Does the fact that Adderall makes me sleepy instead of hyper/awake point me towards any other ideas of what I should try?

[thedevinroy]

I think so.

I was aware they were dangerous but because the Adderall had worn off, I felt I could take the selegiline. After Googling earlier, I see my mistake.
Questions:
1) Why exactly are the amounts of dopamine, norepinephrine, and adrenaline that come from taking the two together dangerous?
2) How would I know that something bad is happening from it?
3) How is it irreversible?
4) Why would you want to take anything irreversible?
5) How long should one wait between taking the two?

Yesterday, I felt nothing taking those. Today, I took 10mg at 8am and haven't felt anything either. I just wanted to see if I would feel anything immediate like you did. Tomorrow, I don't know what I'm gonna do. I can't decide what path to take(no pun intended)... Does the fact that Adderall makes me sleepy instead of hyper/awake point me towards any other ideas of what I should try?

1) Your body can handle a lot. Exercise alone increases dopamine levels 100%. Food increases it by 50%. Things can fluctuate a lot naturally. Methamphetamine I believe raises it 900%. 100% above normal is healthy, so anything beyond that is uncharted.
2) Mania, twitches, cardiac problems, nausea, vomiting, and possibly the shakes. Over time this could result in severe weight loss, fatigue, and early neurodegeneration.
3) Selegiline is mistaken for a monoamine, MAO-B takes it into position, and the enzyme cannot "crunch" the selegiline molecule. Selegiline stays lodged in the substrate position, disabling other monoamines from being broken down by the MAO-B enzyme.
4) The reason to take something irreversible is really a matter of opinion. Some like that they can miss a dose without feeling like they need a dose while others feel burdened by the inability to eat certain foods and goodies. To me, it doesn't matter, I accept it either way. From experience with Hordenine, I did not enjoy the short duration of action. That's why I went for the Selegiline. It's always working - no ups and downs, no slow release pills.
5) If you choose to take Adderall, just don't take Selegiline again. 5mg or 10mg of Selegiline one time for the first time will not permanently inhibit all your enzymes for two weeks. It might inhibit 5% or so. Nothing to worry about. If you were using Selegiline for more than a few days, I would wait a week, if you were using Selegiline for a few weeks or more, you need to wait two weeks. If you just took Adderall and want to switch to Selegiline, wait 12-24 hours.

You are not the only one that experiences this problem. I don't really know what causes this tolerance. It is tolerance, and I'm pretty sure of that. Chronic Adderall users will take 2.5mg to go to sleep. Thus, a small dose has a reverse effect on those "used to it".

Perhaps the problem is absorption. Do you take Adderall on an empty, alkaline stomach and take with magnesium? This can increase absorption and length of action by 2x from my experience.

EDIT: In my experience... I used the "blue" pills. They were 5mg tablets, fast-acting, not XR.

Edited by devinthayer, 19 October 2011 - 06:34 PM.

[manic_racetam]

Let me see if I can answer some of these for you

1) Why exactly are the amounts of dopamine, norepinephrine, and adrenaline that come from taking the two together dangerous?
-There are certain levels of MAO (MonoAmineOxidase) in everyone's brain. MAO is a chemical in your body that breaks down dopamine, seratonin, norepinephrine, etc to regulate their levels. An "MAO-Inhibitor" is a drug that breaks down MAO in your body, which means there is less MAO hanging around in your synapses, which leads to the accumulation of more dopamine, etc.

Selegiline at doses below 10mg is a selective inhibitor for MAO-B. MAO-B breaks down Dopamine, but leaves serotonin alone. For more detailed description of the MAO-B and MAO-A difference see here.

Why are they dangerous in combination? Amphetamine floods your synapses with dopamine, norepinephrine etc... Usually your body uses MAO's to break those down, which regulates the effects of the drug. When taken in combination with an MAO-inhibitor, your body has no way to regulate the influx of dopamine and it's basically a run-away amphetamine reaction in your body. Which can lead to dangerous side-effects pretty quickly.

2) How would I know that something bad is happening from it?
-If you just took the selegiline once you should be fine since it takes a few days to build up to full inhibition of MAO-B. High blood pressure and heart-rate would be the first signs of it though. Then if it got out of control you'd be looking at hypertensive crisis (AKA- heart attack)

3) How is it irreversible?
- Irreversible is in regard to the method of breaking down of MAO. That means that once the MAO is broken down by the drug it does not metabolize back into MAO, meaning you have to wait for your body to produce more before the levels are brought back to base-line.

There are also reversible inhibitors. Those break down MAO as well, but once the broken down MAO gets into the liver or other processing organs it reacts with another amino-acid and turns back into MAO. Basically, reversible inhibitors' effects don't last as long as irreversible inhibitors.

Selegiline is an irreversible inhibitor of MAO-B at dosages below 10mg per day. This is why you see warnings to stop taking MAO-I's for 2 weeks or more before starting any other medications.

4) Why would you want to take anything irreversible?
It just sounds scary. The effects of the drug aren't irreversible on the body, your natural levels will eventually rebound. It's just that the molecules of MAO that react with selegiline are irreversibly changed, and therefore the effects are long lasting (but definitely not for a life-time ).

5) How long should one wait between taking the two?
After taking selegiline consistently, it would be a good idea to wait at least 2 weeks before taking any amphetamines. If you just took the selegiline once, then you'll probably be fine if you just avoid taking anymore.

But generally, you're going to want to avoid taking the two together. Be safe

Edited by manic_racetam, 19 October 2011 - 06:41 PM.

[thedevinroy]

Manic, your perception of MAO is a little skewed. MAO is an enzyme. There are two type of MAO: A and B. Each one is an entirely different enzyme, but they both work on similar and same substrates using the same co-factor. The OH group on the substrate varies in position based on which MAO metabolized the substrate. The co-factors are Water and FAD.

http://en.wikipedia....noamine_oxidase

Enzymes are not necessarily a single molecule. They can be one or more molecules. These "molecules" are actually proteins, comprised of many amino acids that are bound in a structured shape. MAO is actually one of two enzymes of which Selegiline "selectively" inhibits the MAO-B version. I say "selectively" with a grain of salt because a small portion does in vivo inhibit MAO-A, but I'm unsure if this is irreversible.

At each enzyme there are binding sites. Enzymes are like big mouths that crunch down on molecules to squeeze two or more molecules together or to break a molecule apart. Some crunch together, some crunch to tear apart. On each enzyme, there are "sites" which only fit certain substrates or cofactors. Enzymes basically cause a chemical reaction, converting the heat of your body into a mechanical device. In a way, they are like catalysts, which lower enthalpy (required energy) for a chemical reaction to occur.

Cofactors are part of the reaction that don't really matter. Things like water or NAD or FAD that a recycled in 1000 different reactions. The substrate is the part that does matter. When an enzyme is inhibited, the substrate site is usually "in use" by the inhibitor.

By the way, you took a pretty good swing at it, and I commend you for even saying somethings I didn't, like about the liver helping out cleansing the enzymes. Haha, I just liked my answer better.

Edited by devinthayer, 19 October 2011 - 08:56 PM.

[manic_racetam]

.......

Enzymes are not necessarily a single molecule. They can be one or more molecules. These "molecules" are actually proteins, comprised of many amino acids that are bound in a structured shape. MAO is actually one of two enzymes of which Selegiline "selectively" inhibits the MAO-B version. I say "selectively" with a grain of salt because a small portion does in vivo inhibit MAO-A, but I'm unsure if this is irreversible.

At each enzyme there are binding sites. Enzymes are like big mouths that crunch down on molecules to squeeze two or more molecules together or to break a molecule apart. Some crunch together, some crunch to tear apart. On each enzyme, there are "sites" which only fit certain substrates or cofactors. Enzymes basically cause a chemical reaction, converting the heat of your body into a mechanical device. In a way, they are like catalysts, which lower enthalpy (required energy) for a chemical reaction to occur..................

Big mouths crunching molecules? Sounds a little far-fetched to me LOL

Thanks Devin

[thedevinroy]

[manic_racetam]

Totally joking man! Pesky tone of voice being lost in writing sometimes. Thanks for clearing that up for me and thanks for the picture


One question though. So once an MAO is irreversibly inhibited, is it ever broken down afterwards? or is it filtered out by the liver or kidneys or something?

Edited by manic_racetam, 20 October 2011 - 01:49 AM.

[thedevinroy]

Totally joking man! Pesky tone of voice being lost in writing sometimes. Thanks for clearing that up for me and thanks for the picture


One question though. So once an MAO is irreversibly inhibited, is it ever broken down afterwards? or is it filtered out by the liver or kidneys or something?

I imagine it gets "eaten" by your body, turned back into amino acids. Catabolysis I suppose, maybe the the liver makes mega enzymes to crunch smaller enzymes. Enzymes are like Pac Man. Perhaps when you're really hungry, your body decides to load up bile with weird blood stream stuff and re-digest it. I have no idea, always wondered what happens to dead blood cells, too. "You just poop them out," one kid said, "Where else would it go?" I knew he was only half right, but didn't know which half, probably the upper half...

Just learned something. An irreversible enzyme inhibitor... actually can bond to the enzyme with a covalent molecular bond. I also think there are enzymes dependent upon metal ions or mineral ions, so some enzymes are inhibited by knocking out the core ion.

Edited by devinthayer, 20 October 2011 - 09:20 PM.