• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans

Photo
* - - - - 1 votes

Beef and Milk


  • Please log in to reply
138 replies to this topic

Poll: Beef and Milk (106 member(s) have cast votes)

Beef and Milk

  1. yes (65 votes [63.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 63.11%

  2. no (38 votes [36.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 36.89%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 chris_h

  • Guest
  • 71 posts
  • -1

Posted 30 January 2005 - 08:16 PM


Do you guys eat beef? I keep reading things which say to avoid red meat, but is lean beef really any worse than poultry? I eat a lot of fish, but with all of the contaminant concerns I try not to eat it more than a few times a week.

Also, what do you guys think about skim milk? I used to drink a lot, but recently I have been reading things suggesting that dairy should be avoided?

#2 scottl

  • Guest
  • 2,177 posts
  • 2

Posted 30 January 2005 - 09:39 PM

How about beef yes. Milk---no for many.

Hormone free, antibiotic free beef is great and very healthy for many. Make sure to get enough omega 3 fatty acids (fish or fish oil) every day.

Milk...is an issue for many. If you tolerate it (and I'm not talking about intolerance and diarrhea, more on ...congestion and bloating) then fine. Many do not.

sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for NUTRITION to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#3 reason

  • Guardian Reason
  • 1,101 posts
  • 241
  • Location:US

Posted 31 January 2005 - 04:04 AM

Neither - calorie restriction is just so much easier to manage from a practical standpoint (for me at least) without meat and dairy.

Reason
Founder, Longevity Meme
reason@longevitymeme.org
http://www.longevitymeme.org

#4 eternaltraveler

  • Guest, Guardian
  • 6,471 posts
  • 155
  • Location:Silicon Valley, CA

Posted 31 January 2005 - 04:58 AM

I eat red meat primarily in the form of Elk and venison. Game meat in general is quite healthy. All you have to do is shoot it ;)

I also drink milk. Mostly in the form of Kefir which I culture myself. It's also quite good for the digestive system (probiotic).

The level of physical activity I engage in precludes caloric restriction at this time. I'm currently training for an Iron man triathlon in the summer, which basically means I need to eat as much food as I can eat.

#5 lynx

  • Guest
  • 643 posts
  • 5

Posted 31 January 2005 - 08:09 PM

Red meat consumption is probably necessary for premenopausal women, because heme-iron absorbs better than most other forms. For men and postmenopausal women, iron accumulation appears to be problematic in that free iron can participate in many free radical reactions.

Consequently, limiting red meat seems to be sensible, as does regular blood donation. If the thought of needles makes you quesy, consider blood letting. Just make sure that the leaches are clean or that the barber runs his blade through a candle flame before cutting.
  • like x 1

#6 chris_h

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 71 posts
  • -1

Posted 01 February 2005 - 02:06 AM

I The level of physical activity I engage in precludes caloric restriction at this time.  I'm currently training for an Iron man triathlon in the summer, which basically means I need to eat as much food as I can eat.

I used to run a lot until I damaged my achilles tendon, but now I swim. I dont like the idea of calorie restriction personally. It seems that the age of the worlds oldest man has always been quite low, and there has always been plenty of hungry calorie restricted people in the world.

Red meat consumption is probably necessary for premenopausal women, because heme-iron absorbs better than most other forms. For men and postmenopausal women, iron accumulation appears to be problematic in that free iron can participate in many free radical reactions.

Consequently, limiting red meat seems to be sensible, as does regular blood donation. If the thought of needles makes you quesy, consider blood letting. Just make sure that the leaches are clean or that the barber runs his blade through a candle flame before cutting.

Interesting. Do you recommend avoiding iron containing multivitamins?

I currently dont donate blood, but I would be interested in any studies done which suggest bleeding is beneficial. Hopefully they would be conducted on healthy individuals (it seems 95% of health information is created to help fat people lose weight. I find this frustrating).

#7 scottl

  • Guest
  • 2,177 posts
  • 2

Posted 01 February 2005 - 02:33 AM

"Do you recommend avoiding iron containing multivitamins?"

Yes! Unless you are a menstruating female with anemia.

Red meat has other advantages though e.g. carnitine.

#8 lynx

  • Guest
  • 643 posts
  • 5

Posted 01 February 2005 - 02:47 AM

Scott is a Dr. and I concur 100% on this. In fact, some of the newer theories about cardiovascular disease attribute the rise in C Reactive Protein to excess iron.

There have been numerous studies showing a reduced risk for heart attack with frequent blood donation. Granted, it is difficult to account for such factors as "civic mindedness" and altruism and how they would effect the results. But, unless you are diagnosed anemic, iron is a no-no. In the U.S. all sorts of foods are iron fortified, which is problematic in itself.

Most good multivitamins, like LEF and the AOR formula, contain no iron.

#9 lemon

  • Guest
  • 389 posts
  • -2

Posted 01 February 2005 - 02:55 AM

The new LEF mix also contains Green Tea Extract (325mg), 93% polyphenols, which have been shown to bind to iron and remove it from the body.

#10 Chip

  • Guest
  • 387 posts
  • 0

Posted 01 February 2005 - 04:18 AM

I like to be on the low end of the food chain due to the biomagnification of fat soluble contaminants. At one time I was a lacto-vegeterian. I don't drink milk now as a rule though because I was in a hurry this morning and didn't bother to get a new package of my almond milk out of the pantry, I had a bit of non-BGH milk on my cereal this morning. We keep it around for the kids (just try to raise some kids without milk, the dairy industry campaign to make it what every child needs makes you look like a monster in some people's eyes if you don't give it to your kids). I was raised on beef and pork and I early took a great liking to pork so though I manage to have very little beef (perhaps a bite or two every couple weeks) I have pork sometimes three or four times a week.

I need to improve my diet to include more fresh vegies and fruits kind of in par with Gerson therapy as I think I am a likely candidate to develop cancer and incorporate prophylactic measures.

I am basically unaware of carnitine and will have to look into it more. Thanks for mentioning that Scott.

#11 nootropi

  • Guest
  • 1,207 posts
  • -3
  • Location:Arizona, Los Angles, San Diego, so many road

Posted 01 February 2005 - 04:37 AM

Ahh...but there is only one kind of meat that I eat. I am a VAGetarian. ;))

...sorry for being so...crude.
  • dislike x 1

#12 Chip

  • Guest
  • 387 posts
  • 0

Posted 01 February 2005 - 05:11 AM

Mmm, yes, I do partake in that carnal consumption myself at times. My wife has a case of H. Pylori that we keep down with ellagic acid, broccoli sprouts supplements and pineapple juice. It is common amongst Asians. Doesn't appear to be catching via VAGeterianism though but maybe that is just my strong composition or, actually, I think my eating a little honey each day may be what is keeping me from catching it. Honey and H. Pylori don't like to share the same gut. My wife likes honey but she can only stomach it when the H. Pylori seems to be abated. She was treated poorly and wrongly by the first doctor who diagnosed it probably leading it to have become the strain that is resistant to the major antibiotic used to treat it. The doctor gave her too little of the antibiotic for too little time. I had to do my own research to come up with the supplements that keep it from ruining her life.

Uh oh, where's the beef?

#13 nootropi

  • Guest
  • 1,207 posts
  • -3
  • Location:Arizona, Los Angles, San Diego, so many road

Posted 01 February 2005 - 05:20 AM

Mmm, yes, I do partake in that carnal consumption myself at times.  My wife has a case of H. Pylori that we keep down with ellagic acid, broccoli sprouts supplements and pineapple juice.  It is common amongst Asians.  Doesn't appear to be catching via VAGeterianism though but maybe that is just my strong composition or, actually, I think my eating a little honey each day may be what is keeping me from catching it.  Honey and H. Pylori don't like to share the same gut.  My wife likes honey but she can only stomach it when the H. Pylori seems to be abated.  She was treated poorly and wrongly by the first doctor who diagnosed it probably leading it to have become the strain that is resistant to the major antibiotic used to treat it.  The doctor gave her too little of the antibiotic for too little time.  I had to do my own research to come up with the supplements that keep it from ruining her life. 

Uh oh, where's the beef?


The meat that I eat MUST be free of contaminants! I'll need to subject it to an independent, third party assay before eating it. I prefer ORGANIC meat, of course. Meat not exposed to stress or excess hormones. ;)

#14 Chip

  • Guest
  • 387 posts
  • 0

Posted 01 February 2005 - 05:26 AM

No way man, no third party assesment in this case. [lol]

#15 eternaltraveler

  • Guest, Guardian
  • 6,471 posts
  • 155
  • Location:Silicon Valley, CA

Posted 01 February 2005 - 06:27 AM

Chip, has she tried any probiotics for the H. Pylori? If you can't kill it, out compete it.

#16 Chip

  • Guest
  • 387 posts
  • 0

Posted 01 February 2005 - 07:10 AM

Yeah, but she is a real slacker as far as taking any supplements. She is using the ones I've prepared ahead of time in a pill container that I haven't kept refrigerated but I could add the probiotics and keep the box in the fridge. I also want her to take a very small amount of bee pollen, building up the dosage slowly, to help her abate allergies and hopefully get her to be able to stomach a little honey every day. Putting the pill box in the fridge makes both possible. The H. Pylori apparently exacerbates allergies and she's had it since she spent time on a Quong Zho province farm when she was quite young. When it is in full blown attack, when she forgets the supplements for a couple days or more, she can't even eat any fresh fruit without getting an allergic reaction. I forget the term for general fruit allergy. She hasn't had a full blown attack in quite a while though I noticed the urea smell on her breath about a week ago so I think she had a minor bloom recently. I think she is starting to get the idea that the pills help. She's been eating a lot of fish all her life and I tell you, as far as skin tone goes, she looks younger than us Westerners half her age. She's really quite beautiful and with a very sweet disposition, something that is quite rare in this world.

Yeah, good suggestion. I know they can help but hadn't figured out the logistics til now. Thanks loads elrond.

It's getting late for me. Lots of stuff to do starting early in the morn. Must sleep.

#17 eternaltraveler

  • Guest, Guardian
  • 6,471 posts
  • 155
  • Location:Silicon Valley, CA

Posted 01 February 2005 - 08:35 AM

As usual I suggest kefir as a probiotic. Unlike yogurt it has beneficial micro organisms that actually colonize the digestive track as opposed to just passing through.

I've been drinking it one week out of 2 for the last 5 or 6 months.

#18 magr

  • Guest
  • 157 posts
  • 0

Posted 01 February 2005 - 09:53 AM

I also drink milk.  Mostly in the form of Kefir which I culture myself.  It's also quite good for the digestive system (probiotic).


Where do you find the culture to start it with?

#19 Chip

  • Guest
  • 387 posts
  • 0

Posted 01 February 2005 - 02:53 PM

Wow, elrond, sounds like sitting down to a meal with you would be a real treat.

I've been out of the country and in the city here in Silicon Valley for about 7 years now. Most of my best buddies on the Mendocino coast moved off to Hawaii, Alaska or New Zealand. My wife met me there and she wanted to move back into the city so here we are. I was/am part of a spirit that was crowded onto a point that is, perhaps, the furthest West you can go in the lower 48. My friends decided to turn tail and run and I decided to turn and face the beast. I have this crazy relativistic/quantum view of universe that tells me I'll survive anything so if the cities are threatening to collapse and possibly take the rest of the biosphere with them, I figure my being here in the city may prevent that and facilitate some other options. I used to live with some goats, literally. One cabin I resided in there, in a sun-lit meadow surrounded by redwoods, had a first floor that was our collective goat shed. Here though, it's much more practical to use some mixed strain probiotic capsules. Perhaps I should try some different flavor kefir to see if I can find one my wife likes but so far, she seems to not care for it. I also think the mixed probiotics may be more effective for her problem.

Still wondering "where's the beef?" and the milk, oh the milk, it does a bloody good, everybody heeds ilk, got ilk?

#20 Infernity

  • Guest
  • 3,322 posts
  • 11
  • Location:Israel (originally from Amsterdam, Holland)

Posted 01 February 2005 - 07:19 PM

[>] As for milk- I drink with my coffee and cereals which I eat and drink almost every morning, but I don't like drinking milk alone... I don't have problem with skim milk, I usually use it... By the way- tip for all of you: skim milk is actually a simple milk mixed up with simple water, which means you better buy a normal milk and mix it at home than buying the skim milk, it shall be more economizing that's all...

Ahh...but there is only one kind of meat that I eat.  I am a VAGetarian. :))

...sorry for being so...crude.


Well Nootropi, then eat a noncarnivorous cow... hehe LOL [lol]

I would call myself a meat devourer (what an unexpressional word ;) ). I LOVE meat, I love it RARE [tung] ... hmm beef, pork, lamb- whatever...

Yours
~Infernity

Edited by infernity, 10 March 2005 - 12:47 PM.


#21 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 18,997 posts
  • 2,000
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 01 February 2005 - 07:28 PM

I eat meat and drink skim milk, however most of my meat concumption is wild (truly organic). Venison and other wild meat is very lean.

Also, I think donating blood would help eliminate excess iron from the blood for men. If menstruating takes care of excess iron in women (that is the theory anyway) then donating blood should do the the exact same thing.

#22 scottl

  • Guest
  • 2,177 posts
  • 2

Posted 01 February 2005 - 08:47 PM

Yes. I would do that and continue to eat the wild game (wild game has better fatty acid profiles anyway).

#23 lynx

  • Guest
  • 643 posts
  • 5

Posted 01 February 2005 - 10:27 PM

Mmm, yes, I do partake in that carnal consumption myself at times. My wife has a case of H. Pylori that we keep down with ellagic acid, broccoli sprouts supplements and pineapple juice.


You might want to look into POLAPREZINC, which is zinc-carnosine, used in Japan for H.Pylori and is now available in the US, GNC has it.

#24 eternaltraveler

  • Guest, Guardian
  • 6,471 posts
  • 155
  • Location:Silicon Valley, CA

Posted 02 February 2005 - 09:20 AM

I also drink milk.  Mostly in the form of Kefir which I culture myself.  It's also quite good for the digestive system (probiotic).


Where do you find the culture to start it with?


I searched around online and found someone selling the grains. Kefir is easier to make than yogurt as well since it works at room temp.

I've given out a few grains to people on this forum already

#25 randolfe

  • Guest
  • 439 posts
  • -1
  • Location:New York City/ Hoboken, N.J.

Posted 06 February 2005 - 10:44 PM

I have become so turned off by what I'd call "Greenie Extremies" and "natural food cultists" I try to avoid buying anything marked "all natural" or "no preservatives".

I don't worry about the antibiotics in American beef. I eat very little of it because I don't want my arteries to get clogged. I boycott beef for personal health reasons and also due to ecological reasons.

Using bushel baskets full of grain to produce one pound of beef is a waste of resources. Ranchers bulldoze rainforests in Central and South America to use the land for grazing. After a very few years, the land is exhausted and unsuitable for anything.

The fecal waste from slaughter houses (both cows and pigs also) pollutes the water supply. It may sound funny, but cow farts constitute one of the key sources of the gas that is eating a hole in the ozone layer.

Milk is fine. You just have to be sure it is skim milk. Skim milk tastes like chalk water. There is a much better brand called "Skim Plus" which tastes much better.

One of my favorite treats consists of mixing one (recommended by the mfg) or two packages of "fat free" and "sugar free" jello pudding (flavors include chocolate, butterscotch, pistachio, vanilla, etc.) with two cups of skim milk..or one package with two cups of fat free yogurt. You end up a lot of tasty pudding with only 300 to 400 calories.

Yes, I know it is filled with "aspartame" and "acesulfame potassium" as sweeteners,
"yellow 5, blue1, yellow 6 artificial colors", "BHA, TBHQ and citric acid preservatives".

Thank goodness for all that artificial stuff that enables me to eat a serving of pudding with only 70 calories in it versus the 160 calories I'd get with regular instant pudding.

This seems to be a forum where all kinds of people "vent". I "vent" by reading all those multisyllable chemicals that the Coca-Cola Company puts into ordinary "natural" water to transform it into zero calorie "Fresca" (certainly the nectar of the Gods) to natural-food-folk. They become furious. I've had some become so enraged that they physically charged at me and tried to seize and destroy my zero-calorie delight.

I admit I am still overacting to the FDA's banning of cyclamate back in the 1970s. Because of the 'Delaney Amendment' any substance found to cause cancer could not be used in food or drink.

They found that if they subjected rats and/or mice to huge quantities of cyclamate cancer would indeed develop. A human being would have to drink something like 5 gallons of cola a day for a hundred years (impossible) to ingest an equivalent quantity of cyclamate. But "the Delaney Amendment" was fundamentalist and absolute. Common sense was not allowed to interfere.

Actually, I saw the ban coming and bought so much cyclamate that I was still using it twelve years later. I should have bought a twenty-five year supply. I suspect that since cyclamate was/is artificial, its shelf life must be as nearly immortal as that which we seek.

They banned cyclamates just like the Europeans ban American beef (unfair trade). Well, if the yuppies in Europe want to waste their money on expensive "natural beef" like that from England with Mad Cow disease tossed in at no extra charge, let them.

The Greenpeace crowd wants to block American Soybeans from entering England because they have been genetically engineered. If people want to spend more for genetically inferior soybeans, I guess that is fine also (more unfair trade).

However, when that madman in Angola decides to refuse shipments of genetically engineered corn to feed the people starving to death in his country because he fears Europeans won't buy his "natural corn" anymore, I really get steamed.

Natural food tyranny shows its ugly face all over the world. Switzerland is keeping something called "golden rice" locked up within its borders. That is rice, which a man has worked for years to insert the gene of a carrot (and therefore vitamin A and a golden color) into. It would improve the diets of millions of people who live mainly on rice and less than $1 a day. It would prevent 500,000 children from developing "river blindness". But Switzerland's "natural food lobby" has passed legislation that forbids the export of any genetically engineered food product or seed.

I have nothing personal against "natural foods" as such. They are overpriced. Those without preservatives (especially bread) grow mold very quickly. But, to each his own. If you have any money left over after you finish "natural food" shopping, feel free to waste it in Las Vegas or Atlantic City.

I like Dr. Gregory Pence's idea that someday we'll be able to eat a diet consisting entirely of synthetic foods which are tasty, eliminate hunger and supply optimum nutrition. Ah, the totally "unnatural" diet. That sounds good to me.

Now, these thoughts should push some buttons, flick some switches, and even cause a few light bulbs to pop. Just don't attack me physically. Think of what pitiful shape I am already in because of all the chemicals that have seeped into my very cells.

Forget trying to convert me. I am an apostate. I am beyond redemption. I see why people vent here. You really find yourself gleefully giggling after you've done it. [tung]
  • dislike x 1
  • like x 1

#26 scottl

  • Guest
  • 2,177 posts
  • 2

Posted 06 February 2005 - 10:54 PM

Ahhh Randolfe...

" beef. I eat very little of it because I don't want my arteries to get clogged."

You at least drank the cool aid here.....

#27 randolfe

  • Guest
  • 439 posts
  • -1
  • Location:New York City/ Hoboken, N.J.

Posted 06 February 2005 - 11:09 PM

I am more of a misfit here than anywhere else on the site. Fortunately, I'm neither running for office nor caught up in a popularity contest.

I love your motto. Eric Hoffer's book "True Believer" made me aware of the dangerous tendencies luking within myself. Did he write any other books? I even quoted him in my annual Xmas letter this year.

I don't seek to "impose my will" on the majority. Every time I shop for food, I feel the majority (food companies included) are trying to impose their will on me. Sometimes you have to buy food that is labeled "all natural" whether you want to or not.

#28 scottl

  • Guest
  • 2,177 posts
  • 2

Posted 07 February 2005 - 12:49 AM

I confess I know nothing of Eric Hoffer other then the full quote (which is too long for a signature):

"It is maintained that a society is free only when dissenting minorities have room to throw their weight around ... As a matter of fact, a dissenting minority feels free only when it can impose its will on the majority: what it abominates most is the dissent of the majority."

Eric Hoffer

It struck me as being particularly true.

You might check amazon for other books.

"Every time I shop for food, I feel the majority (food companies included) are trying to impose their will on me. Sometimes you have to buy food that is labeled "all natural" whether you want to or not."

I think the food companies are trying to give people what they think they want. All natural means....LOL nothing. Asbestos is all natural.

The key to diet is to remember that there is no one diet that is healthy for everyone. Common sense (get enough protein, eat lots of veggies and fruits especially diff colored ones, and drink sufficient water) goes along way.

Oh and get some omega 3 fatty acids (which alas for vegetarians seems to mean fish or fish oil as the flax oil conversion is VERY ineffecient).

#29 Chip

  • Guest
  • 387 posts
  • 0

Posted 07 February 2005 - 03:21 AM

Arghhhh. the omega 3 fatty acids from fish are said to be originally from algae, I understand. Thought I saw that some supplement provider was looking into aquaculture of that algae. I hope and suspect that pans out.

I hear ya randolfe. I had breakfast with my first son this morning. They are concerned to eat nothing but organic foods. I always kind of cringe when they use the term, but, they have some very young kids and I don't blame them for trying to avoid some of the crap out there, and there is crap whose presence in food products is more profit driven than health driven. Still, what carbon based molecule is not organic? Breakfast, BTW, was delicious, maple syrup on blueberry and banana pancakes, cranberry juice, sausage and turkey bacon. Can't say my tastes are totally aligned with my being healthy ;)

My only complaint about Eric Hoffer's book, which I have read and own a copy, is that I have found it to be too bipartisan. I've wanted to use it for ammunition to address some people's stance and it didn't provide. ;)

#30 eternaltraveler

  • Guest, Guardian
  • 6,471 posts
  • 155
  • Location:Silicon Valley, CA

Posted 07 February 2005 - 10:01 AM

Randolfe,

Your points are well taken. Personally I prefer organic meats and vegetables. They might be more healthy for me or not, but that's not the primary reason. The primary reason is that they taste better. The produce at the whole foods supermarket just looks smells and tastes better than the produce at your typical supermarket. Those properties make it worth the slight premium I pay for them.

I think this planet needs GM foods in a big way. The golden rice is a good first step (if it can be distributed that is). It would be better if they can engineer it even more so the rice has lots more nutrients. It would save lots of lives.
I look forward to the day when meat is grown in vats at far less waste per pound of meat.
I don't personally like aspartame; it seems to give me headaches. However splenda is good. It's in the protein powder I use (that stuff sure isn't natural). Though I'd prefer good old sugar.
I extol the benefits of Kefir, but I didn't start drinking it for the benefits, I started drinking it because I was in the Caucuses and I acquired a taste for it. Couldn't find the real stuff here so I just started making it.
Before having game meat in the freezer good old-fashioned cow filled it's place.

I will admit, I have been particularly watching my diet lately, but that's only because of my current training regime (Ironman). Just looking to maximize what my body has been using up under intense exercise (on another aside the best food I've found to eat while I'm training is a good old snickers bar).

And while I may have replaced the ice cream I used to have with desert with fruit smoothies instead it's more because they taste so good, and the frozen fruit I make them out of is certainly a lot cheaper (I'll add sugar or honey to sweeten them up a bit beyond their natural level).

I'm certainly not trying to reduce calories; I'd rather gain some weight than loose it. And when I'm down in civilization if I'm hungry I'll certainly stop at a Burger King or whatever else I feel like.

Still it doesn't hurt to be aware of things that are good for you and bad. I think that's all it really takes. Awareness. Cold water fish is supposed to be pretty good for you, I like fish. Therefore I simply remember to eat a little bit more of what I like. If I'm thirsty a soda or juice would be good. I like them about the same. Juice is supposed to be a little better for you, so I'll pick that. Sometimes I'll want a coke, and I'll drink a coke. That’s what it comes down to for me. When all other things are equal I'll pick the healthier choice.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users