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Beef and Milk


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Poll: Beef and Milk (106 member(s) have cast votes)

Beef and Milk

  1. yes (65 votes [63.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 63.11%

  2. no (38 votes [36.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 36.89%

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#31 geigertube

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Posted 07 February 2005 - 03:08 PM

I try to eat organic (and don't start with the pedantic "carbon" thing. There are multiple meanings for words) when I can afford it, because as far as I can tell, it has less of a negative impact on the environment than conventional methods. The algae blooms in the gulf from the chemical fertilizer runoff kind of freaks me out.

I try and get free range meat because I see no point in putting the animals I eat through the torture of standard factory farming methods just to save a few bucks.

As far as health, I cant really say for certain.

Steven

#32 randolfe

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Posted 07 February 2005 - 10:02 PM

Well, what a delightful series of responses. I was sure there was a "Greenie Extremie" luking somewhere who go after me the way the peasants went after Dr. Frankenstein ;)

In quick order:

Scott!, what you say about "organic" is so true. In fact, one of the biggest "scams" is in breakfast cereals like Granola which is labeled "all natural" and is loaded with calories from honey, sugar and nuts. (Nothing really wrong with any of those. Nuts are actually very good for you. However, eating those naturally sweetened "all natural" foods could make you very obese! Another trick they use to trick diet-conscious consumers is to put "fat free" on products that are loaded with calorie-rich sweeteners to make up for the missing fat.

Chip, nothing is wrong with fish oils. In fact, "wild salmon" is worth the price because it has higher concentrations of it. Eric Hoffer's book essentially described the personality type of a "true believer" of any stripe and how such a person would quit his job, desert his family, make himself a pauper working for a cause.
You should try to give your kids better eating habits. Turkey bacon was the best thing on your breakfast menu. Kids develop lifelong food preferences while young. Skip the sausage. Replace the pancakes and syrup with shredded wheat or oatmeal. If they have to have "sugar", brown sugar gives you a big flavor punch for the same calories compared to white sugar. Nutritionists tell you to eat an orange instead of having orange juice. You get more nutrition and bulk that way with fewer calories.

geigertube, you should go to the www.reason.org site and read an article by Ronald Bailey entitled "Billions Served". Fertilizers and genetic engineering enables us to feed more people on less land in the USA every year. Our forests have been growing for decades. If we only used "organic methods", all the forest would have been cut down and even the hillsides of the mountains devoted to farming.

I share you feelings about the "terrible torture" of factory farming methods. However, I think the "free range" animals suffer as much in the end. The good thing about "free range" beef is that it has less cholesterol and is less harmful to you.

The argument for genetically engineered crops is they require less pesticides and less fertilizer to produce the needed food.

I'm going to answer eldron in the next post.

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#33 randolfe

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Posted 07 February 2005 - 10:54 PM

elrond, thanks for your thoughtful response. I don't know what to say about your statement that organic meats and vegetables "taste better". Certainly, vine ripened tomatoes are far superior to the others. I treat myself to them about half the time.

However, I have to say that I haven't tried "range beef" because it is literally about twice the price of regular beef. I would think most people would prefer the admiddedly "less healthy" corn-fattened beef because it contains more fat and would be jucier.

On other items, I wonder if the foods marketed as "organic" might taste better (if they do) not because they are organic but because they are likely to be fresher and harvested with more care.

I have an old friend who has become an organic gardener. He lives in Pennsylvania and grows stuff in hothouse during the winter as well. He carefully selects "mixed herbs" for use in salads as the sun is rising, then delivers them to his customers (who pay up to $45 a pound for salad mixings) for use a couple hours later in their "yuppie" $250-a-day resorts featuring "all natural food" near him.

Just like vine ripened tomatoes, I would think "organic consumers" would be pickier about any produce that was wilting, not at peak ripeness, etc., because they are paying a premium for it. I always buy my fresh vegetables at the Korean Green Grocers instead of the supermarkets. I don't think supermarkets have good delivery systems for fresh produce.

I have always had people complain to me about the "after taste" they claim diet soda gives them. The only calorie free drink that I find non-dieters love is Fresca. It has a grapefruit flavor. I was a fat kid trying to lose weight in the 1950s. The thing I missed most were cola drinks. When they finally came out with diet cola drinks, my life was really enriched and I didn't feel so deprived.

I don't use artificial sweeteners. I'll keep "splenda" in mind if I do. Most of my diet foods come premade. I've come to prefer flavored coffee (hazelnut) over regular coffee with sugar.

What exactly is Kefir? I've never heard of it. However, I have developed a taste for certain foods and alcoholic drinks from being exposed to them during travel.

I really haven't tasted "game meat". I tried a buffalo burger once but forget how it tasted. Food tastes are culturally influenced. I laughed at all the "fried eel" signs in England. Couldn't imagine anyone eating eel. Went to Holland, fell in love with a dish called "paling" and discovered it was eel.

A traveling companion used to try to freak me out by dining on "blood pudding" in Trinidad and chopping a goat/sheep/cow skull open in Turkey and eating the brains out of it with relish.

Food "prejudices" are so irrational. Most people don't know that sauage skins are pig intestines. I love "fat free" bolonga. That is made of chicken and turkey. However, I always loved regular bolonga. People tell me that regular bolonga is made up from the scraps left over at the slaughter house and that "if you knew what was in it, you'd never eat it." I made it a point to never find out ;)

Isn't it funny how a "no-no" food like a Snicker's bar would be perfect for an energy boost in some circumstances. I discovered eating an orange was a great "hunger fix" at times I wouldn't be able to eat for a few hours or was going to have a big meal with someone a bit later.

I know so many men get caught up in bodybuilding. The problem I've noticed is that once you get built up, if you slow up, it can all turn to fat. Getting weight off is very difficult for thin people who have built themselves up and never had to diet before.

I saw "Super-Size Me" last weekend. They have it at Blockbusters. I was really "wanting" to like it. However, the guy's girlfriend was an "all natural foods" vegan (at least vegetarian) and "ordering super-size" whenever the option was offerred wasn't really a fair approach. I actually almost fell asleep watching it. I almost went to MacDonald's on my birthday (I rarely go) to pig out on french fries (the ultimate bad food), a Big Mac and shake. However, my "birthday binge" was more than satisfied by a devil's food cake with chocolate icing (gave up cake for life).

It's interesting that many diets warn you away from juices because they are so heavy with calories (eat the fruit instead, most say). One exception is V8 juice but then you run into the salt (sodium) problem.

I like fish also. However, shrimp and lobster are loaded with cholesterol (the bad kind). As I said in an earlier post, "wild salmon" are supposedly much higher in the Omega (Good) Fats than those raised on fish farms.

Of course, you know they now have a genetically engineered salmon that grows much larger and much faster than regular salmon. Maybe, that will bring the prices down.

"Healthier choices" in foods are always wise. Of course, many attack artificial sweeteners as "unhealthy". So, some might not agree with my "healthy choices".
If protein is important in your diet, taking "fat free" yougurt and using it instead of skim milk with the instant fat-free sugar-free puddings really produces the most fabulous texture pudding.

In Greece, I discovered that yogurt was much tastier and better after it had been "strained" in a cheese cloth for a few hours. I loved it and have always intended to do it for myself here at home. Another unfilled goal.

Good luck on everything. Carry a gun along with you while hunting. A bow and arrow wouldn't be much good against a mountain lion.

#34 geigertube

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Posted 10 February 2005 - 01:57 PM

geigertube, you should go to the www.reason.org site and read an article by Ronald Bailey entitled "Billions Served".  Fertilizers and genetic engineering enables us to feed more people on less land in the USA every year.  Our forests have been growing for decades.  If we only used "organic methods", all the forest would have been cut down and even the hillsides of the mountains devoted to farming.

I share you feelings about the "terrible torture" of factory farming methods.  However, I think the "free range" animals suffer as much in the end.  The good thing about "free range" beef is that it has less cholesterol and is less harmful to you.

The argument for genetically engineered crops is they require less pesticides and less fertilizer to produce the needed food.


Hi Randolfe,

I wasn't able to turn up the article after a brief search. But, I suspect this is another of those topics where it gets down to PhD's arguing with each other.

Here is one arguing in favor of large scale organic farming.

http://www.cnr.berke...ic_farming.html

So, who knows? I'm not really qualifed to have a substancial discussion about it.

But, assuming that this argument for conventional farming is true, considering the environmental problems associated with chemical fertilizers and pesticides, I would rather just see the earths population reduced, and address the problem in that manner.

I agree that both free range and factory farmed animals die in the end, and are probably scared while it happens. On the other hand, I can't imagine its much more fun for a wild animal to get chased down by a wolf or something either. So, yeah. I just see it as a way of minimizing harm. A free range animal leads a fairly well cared for existance,without having to worry about predators (until its time for it to die), or starving to death. Seems okay to me.

I'm taking a "wait and see" attitude with GE foods, mostly because I trust Monsanto about as far as I can throw its corporate headquarters with one hand. GE products haven't been around, esp in wide use, long enough to see what the impact on the environment or our bodies will be. People like to talk about how safe it is, and how people have eaten GE foods and been fine, and while Im sure as far as short term, human impact this is so, I remember how DDT was pushed as being safe too. They had films showing kids eating lunch in a fog of DDT, and while, yeah, it was safe in human bodies, it had problems down the food chain. Then theres the whole PCB thing. Monsanto has a bad track record of pushing new tech prematurely, which is understandable, as they are there to make money, not promote the public interest.

But, if GE is shown to be safe after its been out in the real world for a while, I'll welcome it with open arms. Until then, Im going to be wary.

Steven

#35 randolfe

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Posted 10 February 2005 - 09:18 PM

Steven, thanks for the link. I will look it up shortly.

However, you should know how to search "sites" for what you want. Perhaps I should ahve given you the link as you gave the above one to me. You go to the site, type in the title "Billions Served" or you can type in the author's name and read all his articles "Ronald Bailey".

I agree with most of what Ronald Bailey writes. However, I don't like his ideas that wealthy people have done more to preserve land through grants, purchase, etc. than government has. I trust the generosity of rich people about the same way you trust Monsanto.

Yes, the argument for Monsanto's selling of seeds being self-serving is compelling. However, if you think about it, a farmer wouldn't pay "extra money" for seeds unless they more than repaid his investment in higher yields.

Here is the link to the article. I might just paste it in the next post. Some people do that in some forums.

http://www.imminst.o...ST&f=171&t=5213

#36 randolfe

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Posted 10 February 2005 - 09:22 PM

Well, that link just didn't work for me. We have to get a tutorial here so everyone knows how to put the address in so "link" (usually underscored) works. Lacking that, I am simply going to paste this article since I think it is one of the most interesting things I have ever read.






REASON * April 2000

Billions Served

Three decades after he launched the Green Revolution, agronomist Norman Borlaug is still fighting world hunger--and the doomsayers who say it's a lost cause.

Interviewed by Ronald Bailey


Who has saved more human lives than anyone else in history? Who won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1970? Who still teaches at Texas A&M at the age of 86? The answer is Norman Borlaug.

Who? Norman Borlaug, the father of the "Green Revolution," the dramatic improvement in agricultural productivity that swept the globe in the 1960s.

Borlaug grew up on a small farm in Iowa and graduated from the University of Minnesota, where he studied forestry and plant pathology, in the 1930s. In 1944, the Rockefeller Foundation invited him to work on a project to boost wheat production in Mexico. At the time Mexico was importing a good share of its grain. Borlaug and his staff in Mexico spent nearly 20 years breeding the high-yield dwarf wheat that sparked the Green Revolution, the transformation that forestalled the mass starvation predicted by neo-Malthusians.

In the late 1960s, most experts were speaking of imminent global famines in which billions would perish. "The battle to feed all of humanity is over," biologist Paul Ehrlich famously wrote in his 1968 bestseller The Population Bomb. "In the 1970s and 1980s hundreds of millions of people will starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon now." Ehrlich also said, "I have yet to meet anyone familiar with the situation who thinks India will be self-sufficient in food by 1971." He insisted that "India couldn't possibly feed two hundred million more people by 1980."

But Borlaug and his team were already engaged in the kind of crash program that Ehrlich declared wouldn't work. Their dwarf wheat varieties resisted a wide spectrum of plant pests and diseases and produced two to three times more grain than the traditional varieties. In 1965, they had begun a massive campaign to ship the miracle wheat to Pakistan and India and teach local farmers how to cultivate it properly. By 1968, when Ehrlich's book appeared, the U.S. Agency for International Development had already hailed Borlaug's achievement as a "Green Revolution."

In Pakistan, wheat yields rose from 4.6 million tons in 1965 to 8.4 million in 1970. In India, they rose from 12.3 million tons to 20 million. And the yields continue to increase. Last year, India harvested a record 73.5 million tons of wheat, up 11.5 percent from 1998. Since Ehrlich's dire predictions in 1968, India's population has more than doubled, its wheat production has more than tripled, and its economy has grown nine-fold. Soon after Borlaug's success with wheat, his colleagues at the Consultative Group on International Agricultural Research developed high-yield rice varieties that quickly spread the Green Revolution through most of Asia.

Contrary to Ehrlich's bold pronouncements, hundreds of millions didn't die in massive famines. India fed far more than 200 million more people, and it was close enough to self-sufficiency in food production by 1971 that Ehrlich discreetly omitted his prediction about that from later editions of The Population Bomb. The last four decades have seen a "progress explosion" that has handily outmatched any "population explosion."

Borlaug, who unfortunately is far less well-known than doom-sayer Ehrlich, is responsible for much of the progress humanity has made against hunger. Despite occasional local famines caused
by armed conflicts or political mischief, food is more abundant and cheaper today than ever before in history, due in large part to the work of Borlaug and his colleagues.

More than 30 years ago, Borlaug wrote, "One of the greatest threats to mankind today is that the world may be choked by an explosively pervading but well camouflaged bureaucracy." As REASON's interview with him shows, he still believes that environmental activists and their allies in international agencies are a threat to progress on global food security. Barring such interference, he is confident that agricultural research, including biotechnology, will be able to boost crop production to meet the demand for food in a world of
8 billion or so, the projected population in 2025.

Meanwhile, media darlings like Worldwatch Institute founder Lester Brown keep up their drumbeat of doom. In 1981 Brown declared, "The period of global food security is over." In 1994,
he wrote, "The world's farmers can no longer be counted on to feed the projected additions to our numbers." And as recently as 1997 he warned, "Food scarcity will be the defining issue of the new era now unfolding, much as ideological conflict was the defining issue of the historical era that recently ended."

Borlaug, by contrast, does not just wring his hands. He still works to get modern agricultural technology into the hands of hungry farmers in the developing world. Today, he is a consultant to the International Maize and Wheat Center in Mexico and president of the Sasakawa Africa Association, a private Japanese foundation working to spread the Green Revolution to sub-Saharan Africa.

REASON Science Correspondent Ronald Bailey met with Borlaug at Texas A&M, where he is Distinguished Professor in the Soil and Crop Sciences Department and still teaches classes on occasion. Despite his achievements, Borlaug is a modest man who works out of a small windowless office in the university's agricultural complex. A few weeks before the interview, Texas A&M honored Borlaug by naming its new agricultural biotechnology center after him. "We have to have this new technology if we are to meet the growing food needs for the next 25 years," Borlaug declared at the dedication ceremony. If the naysayers do manage to stop agricultural biotech, he fears, they may finally bring on the famines they have been predicting for so long.



Reason: What are you currently working on?

Norman Borlaug: Since 1984, I've been involved in the Sasakawa Africa Association. Our program has devised the best package of farming practices we could with the best seed available, the best agronomic practices, the best rates and dates of seeding, the best controls for weeds and insects and diseases, and put them into test plots in 14 countries. We have found that there is a large food production potential in these African countries which are now struggling with food shortages. The package of practices that we have devised uses modest levels of inputs so the cost is not particularly high compared to their traditional ways of farming. The yields are at the worst double, nearly always triple, and sometimes quadruple what the traditional practices are producing. African farmers are very enthusiastic about these new methods.

Reason: Could genetically engineered crops help farmers in developing countries?

Borlaug: Biotech has a big potential in Africa, not immediately, but down the road. Five to eight years from now, parts of it will play a role there. Take the case of maize with the gene that controls the tolerance level for the weed killer Roundup. Roundup kills all the weeds, but it's short-lived, so it doesn't have any residual effect, and from that standpoint it's safe for people and the environment. The gene for herbicide tolerance is built into the crop variety, so that when a farmer sprays he kills only weeds but not the crops. Roundup Ready soybeans and corn are being very widely used in the U.S. and Argentina. At this stage, we haven't used varieties with the tolerance for Roundup or any other weed killer [in Africa], but it will have a role to play.

Roundup Ready crops could be used in zero-tillage cultivation in African countries. In zero tillage, you leave the straw, the rice, the wheat if it's at high elevation, or most of the corn stock, remove only what's needed for animal feed, and plant directly [without plowing], because this will cut down erosion. Central African farmers don't have any animal power, because sleeping sickness kills all the animals--cattle, the horses, the burros and the mules. So draft animals don't exist, and farming is all by hand and the hand tools are hoes and machetes. Such hand tools are not very effective against the aggressive tropical grasses that typically invade farm fields. Some of those grasses have sharp spines on them, and they're not very edible. They invade the cornfields, and it gets so bad that farmers must abandon the fields for a while, move on, and clear some more forest. That's the way it's been going on for centuries, slash-and-burn farming. But with this kind of weed killer, Roundup, you can clear the fields of these invasive grasses and plant directly if you have the herbicide-tolerance gene in the crop plants.

Reason: What other problems do you see in Africa?

Borlaug: Supplying food to sub-Saharan African countries is made very complex because of a lack of infrastructure. For example, you bring fertilizer into a country like Ethiopia, and the cost of transporting the fertilizer up the mountain a few hundred miles to Addis Ababa doubles its cost. All through sub-Saharan Africa, the lack of roads is one of the biggest obstacles to development--and not just from the standpoint of moving agricultural inputs in and moving increased grain production to the cities. That's part of it, but I think roads also have great indirect value. If a road is built going across tribal groups and some beat-up old bus starts moving, in seven or eight years you'll hear people say, "You know, that tribe over there, they aren't so different from us after all, are they?"

And once there's a road and some vehicles moving along it, then you can build schools near a road. You go into the bush and you can get parents to build a school from local materials, but you can't get a teacher to come in because she or he will say, "Look, I spent six, eight years preparing myself to be a teacher. Now you want me to go back there in the bush? I won't be able to come out and see my family or friends for eight, nine months. No, I'm not going." The lack of roads in Africa greatly hinders agriculture, education, and development.

Reason: Environmental activists often oppose road building. They say such roads will lead to the destruction of the rain forests or other wildernesses. What would you say to them?

Borlaug: These extremists who are living in great affluence...are saying that poor people shouldn't have roads. I would like to see them not just go out in the bush backpacking for a week but be forced to spend the rest of their lives out there and have their children raised out there. Let's see whether they'd have the same point of view then.

I should point out that I was originally trained as a forester. I worked for the U.S. Forest Service, and during one of my assignments I was reputed to be the most isolated member of the Forest Service, back in the middle fork of the Salmon River, the biggest primitive area in the southern 48 states. I like the back country, wildlife and all of that, but it's wrong to force poor people to live that way.

Reason: Does the European ban on biotechnology encourage elites in developing countries to say, "Well, if it's not good enough for Europeans, it's not good enough for my people"?

Borlaug: Of course. This is a negative effect. We always have this. Take the case of DDT. When it was banned here in the U.S. and the European countries, I testified about the value of DDT for malaria control, especially throughout Africa and in many parts of Asia. The point I made in my testimony as a witness for the USDA was that if you ban DDT here in the U.S., where you don't have these problems, then OK, you've got other insecticides for agriculture, but when you ban it here and then exert pressures on heads of government in Africa and Asia, that's another matter. They've got serious human and animal diseases, and DDT is important. Of course, they did ban DDT, and the danger is that they will do the same thing with biotech now.

Reason: What do you see as the future of biotechnology in agriculture?

Borlaug: Biotechnology will help us do things that we couldn't do before, and do it in a more precise and safe way. Biotechnology will allow us to cross genetic barriers that we were never able to cross with conventional genetics and plant breeding. In the past, conventional plant breeders were forced to bring along many other genes with the genes, say, for insect or disease resistance that we wanted to incorporate in a new crop variety. These extra genes often had negative effects, and it took years of breeding to remove them. Conventional plant breeding is crude in comparison to the methods that are being used with genetic engineering. However, I believe that we have done a poor job of explaining the complexities and the importance of biotechnology to the general public.

Reason: A lot of activists say that it's wrong to cross genetic barriers between species. Do you agree?

Borlaug: No. As a matter of fact, Mother Nature has crossed species barriers, and sometimes nature crosses barriers between genera--that is, between unrelated groups of species. Take the case of wheat. It is the result of a natural cross made by Mother Nature long before there was scientific man. Today's modern red wheat variety is made up of three groups of seven chromosomes, and each of those three groups of seven chromosomes came from a different wild grass. First, Mother Nature crossed two of the grasses, and this cross became the durum wheats, which were the commercial grains of the first civilizations spanning from Sumeria until well into the Roman period. Then Mother Nature crossed that 14-chromosome durum wheat with another wild wheat grass to create what was essentially modern wheat at the time of the Roman Empire.

Durum wheat was OK for making flat Arab bread, but it didn't have elastic gluten. The thing that makes modern wheat different from all of the other cereals is that it has two proteins that give it the doughy quality when it's mixed with water. Durum wheats don't have gluten, and that's why we use them to make spaghetti today. The second cross of durum wheat with the other wild wheat produced a wheat whose dough could be fermented with yeast to produce a big loaf. So modern bread wheat is the result of crossing three species barriers, a kind of natural genetic engineering.

Reason: Environmentalists say agricultural biotech will harm biodiversity.

Borlaug: I don't believe that. If we grow our food and fiber on the land best suited to farming with the technology that we have and what's coming, including proper use of genetic engineering and biotechnology, we will leave untouched vast tracts of land, with all of their plant and animal diversity. It is because we use farmland so effectively now that President Clinton was recently able to set aside another 50 or 60 million acres of land as wilderness areas. That would not have been possible had it not been for the efficiency of modern agriculture.

In 1960, the production of the 17 most important food, feed, and fiber crops--virtually all of the important crops grown in the U.S. at that time and still grown today--was 252 million tons. By 1990, it had more than doubled, to 596 million tons, and was produced on 25 million fewer acres than were cultivated in 1960. If we had tried to produce the harvest of 1990 with the technology of 1960, we would have had to have increased the cultivated area by another 177 million hectares, about 460 million more acres of land of the same quality--which we didn't have, and so it would have been much more. We would have moved into marginal grazing areas and plowed up things that wouldn't be productive in the long run. We would have had to move into rolling mountainous country and chop down our forests. President Clinton would not have had the nice job of setting aside millions of acres of land for restricted use, where you can't cut a tree even for paper and pulp or for lumber. So all of this ties together.

This applies to forestry, too. I'm pleased to see that some of the forestry companies are very modern and using good management, good breeding systems. Weyerhauser is Exhibit A. They are producing more wood products per unit of area than the old unmanaged forests. Producing trees this way means millions of acres can be left to natural forests.

Reason: A lot of environmental activists claim that the BT toxin gene, which is derived from Bacillus thuringiensis and which has been transferred into corn and cotton, is going to harm beneficial insects like the monarch butterfly. Is there any evidence of that?

Borlaug: To that I [respond], will BT harm beneficial insects more than the insecticides that are sprayed around in big doses? In fact, BT is more specific. There are lots of insects that it doesn't affect at all.

Reason: It affects only the ones that eat the crops.

Borlaug: Right.

Reason: So you don't think that putting the BT gene in corn or cotton is a big problem?

Borlaug: I think that whole monarch butterfly thing was a gross exaggeration. I think the researchers at Cornell who fed BT corn pollen to monarch butterflies were looking for something that would make them famous and create this big hullabaloo that's resulted. In the first place, corn pollen is pretty heavy. It doesn't fly long distances. Also, most monarchs are moving at different times of the season when there's no corn pollen. Sure, some of them might get killed by BT corn pollen, but how many get killed when they are sprayed with insecticides? Activists also say that BT genes in crops will put stress on the pest insects, and they'll mutate. Well, that's been going on with conventional insecticides. It's been going on all my life working with wheat. It's a problem that has been and can be managed.

Reason: But the Cornell researchers went ahead and published their paper on the effects of BT corn pollen on monarch butterflies in the laboratory.

Borlaug: Several of us tried to encourage them to run field tests before it was published. That's how science gets politicized. There's an element of Lysenkoism [Lysenko was Stalin's favorite biologist] all tangled up with this pseudoscience and environmentalism. I like to remind my friends what pseudoscience and misinformation can do to destroy a nation.

Reason: Some activists claim that herbicide-resistant crops end up increasing the amount of herbicide that's sprayed on fields. Do you think that's true?

Borlaug: Look, insecticides, herbicides, and fertilizer cost money, and the farmer doesn't have much margin. He's going to try to use the minimum amount that he can get by with. Probably in most cases, a farmer applies less than he should. I don't think farmers are likely to use too much.

Reason: What other crop pests might biotech control in the future?

Borlaug: All of the cereals except rice are susceptible to one to three different species of rust fungi. Now, rusts are obligate parasites. They can only live under green tissue, but they are long-lived. They can move in the air sometimes 100, 500, 800 miles, and they get in the jet stream and fall. If the crop variety is susceptible to rust fungi and moisture is there and the temperature is right, it's like lighting a fire. It just destroys crops. But rice isn't susceptible--no rust....One thing that I hope to live to see is somebody taking that block of rust-resistance genes in rice and putting it into all of the other cereals.

Reason: Do biotech crops pose a health risk to human beings?

Borlaug: I see no difference between the varieties carrying a BT gene or a herbicide resistance gene, or other genes that will come to be incorporated, and the varieties created by conventional plant breeding. I think the activists have blown the health risks of biotech all out of proportion.

Reason: What do you think of organic farming? A lot of people claim it's better for human health and the environment.

Borlaug: That's ridiculous. This shouldn't even be a debate. Even if you could use all the organic material that you have--the animal manures, the human waste, the plant residues--and get them back on the soil, you couldn't feed more than 4 billion people. In addition, if all agriculture were organic, you would have to increase cropland area dramatically, spreading out into marginal areas and cutting down millions of acres of forests.

At the present time, approximately 80 million tons of nitrogen nutrients are utilized each year. If you tried to produce this nitrogen organically, you would require an additional 5 or 6 billion head of cattle to supply the manure. How much wild land would you have to sacrifice just to produce the forage for these cows? There's a lot of nonsense going on here.

If people want to believe that the organic food has better nutritive value, it's up to them to make that foolish decision. But there's absolutely no research that shows that organic foods provide better nutrition. As far as plants are concerned, they can't tell whether that nitrate ion comes from artificial chemicals or from decomposed organic matter. If some consumers believe that it's better from the point of view of their health to have organic food, God bless them. Let them buy it. Let them pay a bit more. It's a free society. But don't tell the world that we can feed the present population without chemical fertilizer. That's when this misinformation becomes destructive.

Reason: What do you think of Worldwatch Institute founder Lester Brown and his work?

Borlaug: I've known Lester Brown personally for more than 40 years. He's done a lot of good, but he vacillates, depending on the way the political and economic winds are blowing, and he's sort of inclined to be a doomsayer.

Reason: He recently said, "The world's farmers can no longer be counted on to feed the projected additions to our numbers." Do you agree with that?

Borlaug: No, I do not. With the technology that we now have available, and with the research information that's in the pipeline and in the process of being finalized to move into production, we have the know-how to produce the food that will be needed to feed the population of 8.3 billion people that will exist in the world in 2025.

I don't like to try to see further than about 25 years. In 1970, at the Nobel Prize press conference, I said I can see that we have the technology to produce the food that's needed to the year 2000, and that we can do it without destroying a lot of the environment. Modern agriculture saves a lot of land for nature, for wildlife habitat, for flood control, for erosion control, for forest production. All of those are values that are important to society in general, and especially to the privileged who have a chance to spend a lot of long vacations out looking at nature. I say we can produce enough food with the technology available and what's in the process of being developed, assuming that we don't have all this agricultural progress destroyed by the doomsayers. That is, we will be able to produce enough food in 2025 without expanding the area under cultivation very much and without having to move into semi-arid or forested mountainous topographies.

Reason: It seems that every five years or so, Lester Brown predicts that massive famines are imminent. Why does he do that? They never happen.

Borlaug: I guess it sells. I guess what he writes has a lot to do with raising funds.

Reason: Brown notes that India tripled its wheat yields in the past three decades, but he says that will be impossible to do again. Do you think he's right?

Borlaug: No. The projections in food production in India continue to go up on the same slope. When we transferred the Green Revolution wheat technology to India, production was 12 million tons a year. Last year it was 74 million tons, and it is still going up. Once in a while production may go down by a couple of million tons when there's a drought, but in general it continues to go up. Also, the increase in production has occurred with very modest increases in cultivated area. A lot of wild land has been saved in India, China, and the United States by high-yield technology.

India has produced enough and sometimes has a surplus in grain. The problem is to get it into the stomachs of the hungry. There's a lack of purchasing power by too large a part of the population. There are still many hungry people, not dying from starvation, but needing more food to grow strong bodies and maintain health and work effectively. The grain is there in the warehouses, but it doesn't find its way into the stomachs of the hungry.

Reason: What do you think of Paul Ehrlich's work?

Borlaug: Ehrlich has made a great career as a predictor of doom. When we were moving the new wheat technology to India and Pakistan, he was one of the worst critics we had. He said, "This person, Borlaug, doesn't have any idea of the magnitude of the problems in food production." He said, "You aren't going to make any major impact on producing the food that's needed." Despite his criticisms, we succeeded, of course.

Reason: When an alleged expert like Ehrlich is being negative like that, does that discourage people? Does it hurt the efforts to boost food production?

Borlaug: Sure, because we were funded by a foundation....They'd hear his criticisms, and I'm sure there were some people at Rockefeller saying, "Maybe we shouldn't fund that program anymore." It always has adverse effects on budgeting.

Reason: Why do you think people still listen to Ehrlich? One can go back and read his doomsday scenarios and see that he was wrong.

Borlaug: People don't go back and read what he wrote. You do, but the great majority of the people don't, and their memory is short. As a matter of fact, I think this [lack of perspective] is true of our whole food situation. Our elites live in big cities and are far removed from the fields. Whether it's Brown or Ehrlich or the head of the Sierra Club or the head of Greenpeace, they've never been hungry.

Reason: You mentioned that you are afraid that the doomsayers could stop the progress in food production.

Borlaug: It worries me, if they gum up all of these developments. It's elitism, and the American people are vulnerable to this, too. I'm talking about the extremists here and in Western Europe....In the U.S., 98 percent of consumers live in cities or urban areas or good-size towns. Only 2 percent still live out there on the land. In Western Europe also, a big percentage of the people live off the farms, and they don't understand the complexities of agriculture. So they are easily swayed by these scare stories that we are on the verge of being poisoned out of existence by farm chemicals.

Bruce Ames, the head of biochemistry at Berkeley, has analyzed hundreds and hundreds of foods, including all of the basic ones that we have been eating from the beginning of agriculture up to the present time. He has found that they contain trace amounts of many completely natural chemical compounds that are toxic or carcinogenic, but they're present in such small quantities that they apparently don't affect us.

Reason: Would you say the Green Revolution was a success?

Borlaug: Yes, but it's a never-ending job. When I was born in 1914, the world population was approximately 1.6 billion people. It has just turned 6 billion. We've had no major famines any place in the world since the Green Revolution began. We've had local famines where these African wars have been going on and are still going on. However, if we could get the infrastructure straightened out in African countries south of the Sahara, you could end hunger there pretty fast....And if you look at the data that's put out by the World Health Organization and [the U.N.'s Food and Agriculture Organization], there are probably 800 million people who are undernourished in the world. So there's still a lot of work to do.





(AGRICULTURE)

#37 geigertube

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Posted 10 February 2005 - 10:06 PM

Steven, thanks for the link.  I will look it up shortly.

However, you should know how to search "sites" for what you want.  Perhaps I should ahve given you the link as you gave the above one to me.  You go to the site, type in the title "Billions Served" or you can type in the author's name and read all his articles "Ronald Bailey".



Hi Randolfe,

I know how to search sites.. I tried searching the three text search fields using "Billions Served" and the search returned nothing.. [huh] Author search revealed nothing with "billions served" in the title, and I didnt want to have to manually browse through the entire site to find the article..

Thanks for pasting it into a later post though. I'll read through it soon.


Steven

#38 stillbeing

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 01:20 AM

Milk never !! its a food that nature made for baby animals . It sends me straight to the john anyway . YOUGURT on the other hand is modified to be agreeable, I eat it thrice daily insmall quants. beef sometimes with the blood in it . pork absolutly . turkey for sure, good canned sardines too the red label one KING OSCAR brand in spring water which i then smash and mix with extra virgin olive oil and sea salt and have with a bit of dry toasted whole grain brread, also chicken , the dark meat and the skin . Male, weight is 129 or 133 tops . small frame . age 41. eat a lot , burn it all off. ( only beer, spaghetti or massive bread can cause me a gut or weight gain. ) my Doc says I am in better shape than most 19 year olds . chloesteral is super super low . I never ever eat deep fried food, such as fries donuts etc , but I east cookies etc all the time . I eat two or three omega farm free eggs every moring . oatmeal or celery as a snack . i make a decison in my mind that I will always burn up everything I eat . I thinkof myself as a bonfire.
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#39 123456

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 02:22 AM

Avoid Eating Uncooked Meats. They contain worm eggs and so on. I saw a picture on one of those sites which showed a guy who liked sashimis and sushi. Trying to remember correctly, the guy had headaches for a long time but never thought anything of it. The headaches got so bad he went to the doctor and they peeled back his scalp and found worms, worm eggs under it. I saw the picture, Sick.

#40 Infernity

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Posted 08 April 2005 - 09:23 AM

stillbeing,
Do you eat cereals?

Rohan,
Ugh the rare/medium-rare meat is the tastiest [tung] , it is disgusting to eat a well-done stake, or so I call 'well-dead' lol

Yours
~Infernity

#41 DukeNukem

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 08:59 PM

New to this forum, first post.

I've not seen anyone mention the effect of casein, a slow digesting milk protein that's more dangerous to long-term health than milk fat. Casein is a proven fire starter for cancer cell reproduction, and it's a shame that anyone diagnosed with cancer isn't immediately told to cease dairy consumption. I personally avoid all dairy, except undenatured, micro-filtered (not heat processed) whey protein, meaning the protein hasn't been mangled by the processing, which happens in ALL pasteurized dairy products (which is all dairy unless you live on a farm and can get it fresh, or if you live in CA where they sell raw dairy).

Whey protein is a great supplement for adding to oatmeal, for example, to boost the protein content. It's the single dairy product that's safe to consume, assuming a healthy longevity is of any concern.

#42 Shepard

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 02:51 AM

Avoid Eating Uncooked Meats.  They contain worm eggs and so on.  I saw a picture on one of those sites which showed a guy who liked sashimis and sushi.  Trying to remember correctly, the guy had headaches for a long time but never thought anything of it.  The headaches got so bad he went to the doctor and they peeled back his scalp and found worms, worm eggs under it.  I saw the picture, Sick.


Overcooked meats are also dangerous. The charred areas are filled with carcinogens.

However, worms under the scalp is disgusting.

#43 Shepard

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 02:56 AM

I've not seen anyone mention the effect of casein, a slow digesting milk protein that's more dangerous to long-term health than milk fat. 


Milk fat has actually been found to contain potentially anticarcinogenic compounds, assuming you don't mind a little CLA.

Parodi, P. W. 1997. Critical Review: Cows' Milk Fat Components as Potential Anticarcinogenic Agents. J Nutr 127:1055Ð1060.

I have never seen any studies that show cassein to be detrimental to your health. Do you have links to any?

Edit: I did find one article dealing with cassein causing liver cancer when 5% or more of your calories derive from it. I have not found any others, so far.

Edited by shepard, 22 June 2005 - 03:30 AM.


#44 123456

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 03:48 AM

Warning Graphic Images; Do not press on the two last link if you do not have a strong stomach.

Here is the Website and also the Pictures:

http://urbanlegends....-brainworms.htm

Pictures

http://urbanlegends....brainworms2.htm

http://urbanlegends....brainworms3.htm

#45 Infernity

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 08:50 AM

Oh my god, this is disgusting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [sick]
I'd get a heart attack if I'd see this on myself.....

~Infernity

#46 DukeNukem

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 02:00 AM

Shepard, highly recommend this book, which discusses extensive research on casein and its relationship to cancer:

The China Study
http://tinyurl.com/b2ej6

#47 Shepard

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 02:19 AM

Thanks, I'll check it out.

#48 rillastate

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 10:33 PM

Shepard, highly recommend this book, which discusses extensive research on casein and its relationship to cancer:

The China Study
http://tinyurl.com/b2ej6



Interesting...startling actually, maybe a bit nerve racking. I was pretty hooked on incorporating different digestion rates of protein into my diet to maximize muscle growth when I used to weightlifting/bodybuilding in highschool. I had a whole set program of what type of protein to take at specific times. I used to consume massive amounts of casein, soy, whey, and egg protein. I'd be interested in learning more about the link between Casein and Cancer if you ever come across some online studies.

Thanks

#49 eternaltraveler

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 10:07 PM

Warning Graphic Images; Do not press on the two last link if you do not have a strong stomach.

Here is the Website and also the Pictures:

http://urbanlegends....-brainworms.htm

Pictures

http://urbanlegends....brainworms2.htm

http://urbanlegends....brainworms3.htm

You aren't going to get "brain worms" from eating sushi. That's ridiculous. I'd read the analysis that accomponies those images if i were you.
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#50 123456

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 10:26 PM

The possiblility exists. The pictures may be real because some guy(The guy in the picture), when I checked out the (personaly information long time ago, fuzzy memory) was in such a situation, which the images are derived from.(Still again, could be fake pictures, but it doesn't look fake to me)

#51 cyborgdreamer

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 02:16 AM

Wow, this is a really old topic. Anyway, I don't eat beef (or any animal smarter than a fish) for ethical reasons. I don't want support the killing of any animal that might, on some primitive level, have a will to live. Also, beef is loaded with iron, saturated fat and cholesterol so it isn't exactly healthy.

#52 cillakat

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 03:22 AM

for me it comes down to what's biologically appropriate when viewed through the lens of evolution. well, for most things most of the time. i don't deny myself grain based toll house cookies every now and again, but I also don't eat cereal, sandwiches and pasta as a base for any meal.

sticking with mostly produce, a little beef and/or dairy is probably fine for those who tolerate it well. though i think most will miss symptoms of dairy intolerance (ie post nasal drip, bloating etc).

i'd prefer to eat dark/bright protein rather than white....at least there will be other nutrients in the dark (pastured beef) or bright (wild salmon). i try to keep it to a minimum as there is an ethical struggle for me. having lived 15 years as a veg/vegan/live foods radical, i can strongly state that it didn't work for me. my mental health suffered significantly. i'd love to be able to be cruelty free in my consumption habits.....but that would be cruel for the humans that inhabit this house with me;/

ethical issues aside, the problems with beef consumption stem from the grain feeding of cattle rather than the meat itself. if pastured, the nutritional profile is excellent and healthful.

my immediate concerns surrounding fish consumption are minimal right now based on the Seychelles Child Development Study....though as pollutants increase, we will eventually reach a tipping point.

All the best,
Katherine

#53 cillakat

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 03:27 AM

<<a little beef and/or dairy is probably fine for those who tolerate it well. though i think most will miss symptoms of dairy intolerance (ie post nasal drip, bloating etc).>>

actually, i was trying to be diplomatic. while i eat some dairy (butter in my occasional toll house cookies.....to cook one of my wild salmon recipies) my feeling about diary consumption is strong too. milk is a nutrient and *hormone delivery* system for the young of that species. ingesting the milk of another species, fermented or not, is biologically inappropriate for said species.

can you imagine nursing from a rat? a giraffe? another human woman (okay, maybe i shouldn't ask that;p) but you get the point. why do we think it's okay to 'nurse' from cows?

K

#54 Ben

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Posted 29 June 2008 - 03:10 AM

<<a little beef and/or dairy is probably fine for those who tolerate it well. though i think most will miss symptoms of dairy intolerance (ie post nasal drip, bloating etc).>>

actually, i was trying to be diplomatic. while i eat some dairy (butter in my occasional toll house cookies.....to cook one of my wild salmon recipies) my feeling about diary consumption is strong too. milk is a nutrient and *hormone delivery* system for the young of that species. ingesting the milk of another species, fermented or not, is biologically inappropriate for said species.

can you imagine nursing from a rat? a giraffe? another human woman (okay, maybe i shouldn't ask that;p) but you get the point. why do we think it's okay to 'nurse' from cows?

K



Because cows are nicer than rats and giraffes, and neither rat nor giraffe can moo? Seriously though it's not like we are consuming colostrum, so it's not that bad.

#55 luminous

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 12:05 AM

<<a little beef and/or dairy is probably fine for those who tolerate it well. though i think most will miss symptoms of dairy intolerance (ie post nasal drip, bloating etc).>>

actually, i was trying to be diplomatic. while i eat some dairy (butter in my occasional toll house cookies.....to cook one of my wild salmon recipies) my feeling about diary consumption is strong too. milk is a nutrient and *hormone delivery* system for the young of that species. ingesting the milk of another species, fermented or not, is biologically inappropriate for said species.

can you imagine nursing from a rat? a giraffe? another human woman (okay, maybe i shouldn't ask that;p) but you get the point. why do we think it's okay to 'nurse' from cows?

K



Because cows are nicer than rats and giraffes, and neither rat nor giraffe can moo? Seriously though it's not like we are consuming colostrum, so it's not that bad.

Consumption of cow's milk is so commonplace for many of us that it's almost impossible to fully realize the absurdity of doing so. I think we might be the only species that goes out of its way to drink the milk of another species. It's a bit curious that the same people who happily guzzle a quart of cow's milk daily would rather burst into flames than consume a single glass of human milk. Almost as odd is the fact that any of us drink any kind of milk (human, cow, rat, cat, etc.) as adults. Even calves stop drinking it once they become cows (or bulls). Truly, anyone (with teeth) should cringe at the thought of drinking milk--wherever it came from. While human milk is the preferred sustenance for human infants, cow's milk is not a requirement for humans of any age. Its inclusion in the USDA food pyramid is bizarre.

#56 cyborgdreamer

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 12:31 AM

Consumption of cow's milk is so commonplace for many of us that it's almost impossible to fully realize the absurdity of doing so. I think we might be the only species that goes out of its way to drink the milk of another species. It's a bit curious that the same people who happily guzzle a quart of cow's milk daily would rather burst into flames than consume a single glass of human milk. Almost as odd is the fact that any of us drink any kind of milk (human, cow, rat, cat, etc.) as adults. Even calves stop drinking it once they become cows (or bulls). Truly, anyone (with teeth) should cringe at the thought of drinking milk--wherever it came from. While human milk is the preferred sustenance for human infants, cow's milk is not a requirement for humans of any age. Its inclusion in the USDA food pyramid is bizarre.


Drinking cow milk may be unnatural and I can see why some people would find it gross. However, that's not really a factor for me. What I care about is whether it's healthy for me and humane for the cow.

#57 krillin

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 01:19 AM

Consumption of cow's milk is so commonplace for many of us that it's almost impossible to fully realize the absurdity of doing so. I think we might be the only species that goes out of its way to drink the milk of another species.

Luminous needs to get a pussy cat.

#58 luminous

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 03:06 AM

Consumption of cow's milk is so commonplace for many of us that it's almost impossible to fully realize the absurdity of doing so. I think we might be the only species that goes out of its way to drink the milk of another species.

Luminous needs to get a pussy cat.

Touché.

LOL

#59 Dmitri

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 11:07 PM

I read that red meat is bad when you eat it every single day, so I only eat it once a week. As for Milk I drink Lactaid which is lactose free so there is no bloating and diarrhea like another person mentioned. The carton also says that the cows they get the milk from are not treated with hormones.

#60 s123

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 12:28 AM

I don't drink milk (except soy milk) and I don't eat beef.

Exposure of rats to 2-amino-1-methyl-6-phenylimidazo(4,5-b ) pyridine (PhIP), the most mass-abundant HCA, results in the formation of prostate tumors (9) . Furthermore, recent animal studies have shown organ differences in response to PhIP exposure, with the prostate only requiring short-term administration to produce tumors (10).


Association of SULT1A1 Phenotype and Genotype with Prostate Cancer Risk in African-Americans and Caucasians; Cancer Epidemiology Biomarkers & Prevention Vol. 13, 270-276, February 2004; http://cebp.aacrjour...tent/full/13/2- /270

PhIP is the most abundant hererocyclic aromatic amine in cooked meat.

Apart from this red meat also contains AGEs, heam-iron and too much methionin.

Edited by s123, 13 September 2008 - 12:28 AM.





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