138 replies to this topic

[DePaw]

The Mediterranean diet uses plenty of fat: http://www.westonapr...iterranean-diet

Johnross47, maybe add some nutrient-dense animal foods like liver, other organs, gelatin-rich bone broth (gelatin is very good for muscle mass when protein is low too), fish broths too, cod liver oil, oysters, etc?

MisterE,

{1} I don't have to agree with anything.
{2} The bible says not eating meat is a sin actually "Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth." 1 Timothy 4:3
{3} No, that was my exact point! That people misread that passage and think what you said but the opposite is true!
Again I ask you to read this: http://www.biblelife.org/biblediet.htm

If animal protein, saturated fats, and dietary cholesterol are so bad why does total cholesterol go down in those on low carb high-fat diets, especially triglycerides which are much more linked to heart disease than total cholesterol and their LDL pattern become 'fluffier' (less dense) which greatly reduces heart disease risk (as the LDL particles are too big to get into the cracks in the artery walls to form plaques), and their 'good' HDL' increases? Hb1Ac also decreases the most of low carb diets and diabetes is a huge risk factor for heart disease.

[DePaw]

http://jama.jamanetw...rticleid=205916

Study of Ztkins versus Ornish, Zone, and USDA guidelines. Atkin won in lowering weight and body fat %, increasing HDL, and lowering triglycerides, despite consuming much more protein protein and fat.

[misterE]

J Natl Cancer Inst. 2009 Jul 15;101(14):1001-11. doi: 10.1093/jnci/djp168. Epub 2009 Jun 26.

Dietary fatty acids and pancreatic cancer in the NIH-AARP diet and health study.

Thiébaut AC, Jiao L, Silverman DT, Cross AJ, Thompson FE, Subar AF, Hollenbeck AR, Schatzkin A, Stolzenberg-Solomon RZ.

Abstract

BACKGROUND:
Previous research relating dietary fat, a modifiable risk factor, to pancreatic cancer has been inconclusive.

METHODS:
We prospectively analyzed the association between intakes of fat, fat subtypes, and fat food sources and exocrine pancreatic cancer in the National Institutes of Health-AARP Diet and Health Study, a US cohort of 308 736 men and 216 737 women who completed a 124-item food frequency questionnaire in 1995-1996. Hazard ratios (HRs) and 95% confidence intervals (CIs) were calculated using Cox proportional hazards regression models, with adjustment for energy intake, smoking history, body mass index, and diabetes. Statistical tests were two-sided.

RESULTS:
Over an average follow-up of 6.3 years, 865 men and 472 women were diagnosed with exocrine pancreatic cancer (45.0 and 34.5 cases per 100 000 person-years, respectively). After multivariable adjustment and combination of data for men and women, pancreatic cancer risk was directly related to the intakes of total fat, saturated fat, and monounsaturated fat, but not polyunsaturated fat. The associations were strongest for saturated fat from animal food sources; specifically, intakes from red meat and dairy products were both statistically significantly associated with increased pancreatic cancer risk.

CONCLUSION:
In this large prospective cohort with a wide range of intakes, dietary fat of animal origin was associated with increased pancreatic cancer risk.

Edited by misterE, 23 January 2013 - 01:28 AM.

[misterE]

Study of Ztkins versus Ornish, Zone, and USDA guidelines. Atkin won in lowering weight and body fat %, increasing HDL, and lowering triglycerides, despite consuming much more protein protein and fat.

Yeah, but which diet has been shown (in peer-reviewed literature) to reverse atherosclerosis and early stage prostate-cancer? Like Ornish says: "it's best not to measure 'risk-factors' like cholesterol and triglycerides, but rather the underlying disease".

Atkins has never been shown to reverse atherosclerosis, not only that, but the foods that are emphasized in that diet are the same foods that are known to promote atherosclerosis, diabetes and cancer. Atherosclerosis is basically caused by vascular resistance to the effects on insulin and IGF-1. Both hormones promote nitric-oxide production, which inhibits atherosclerosis lesions. Guess what causes vascular insulin-resistance... free-fatty-acids [1-3].

Dr. Richard Flemming, a well respected cardiologist did a study looking at high-protein meat diets on blood-flow compared to a diet rich in plant-foods and whole-grains. This study was a head to head comparison looking not only at the “risk-factors” but also underlying disease… here is what he found:

Angiology. 2000 Oct;51(10):817-26.

The effect of high-protein diets on coronary blood flow.

Fleming RM.

Abstract
Recent research has demonstrated that successful simultaneous treatment of multiple risk factors including cholesterol, triglycerides, homocysteine, lipoprotein (a) [Lp(a)], fibrinogen, antioxidants, endothelial dysfunction, inflammation, infection, and dietary factors can lead to the regression of coronary artery disease and the recovery of viable myocardium. However, preliminary work revealed that a number of individuals enrolled in the original study went on popular high-protein diets in an effort to lose weight. Despite increasing numbers of individuals following high-protein diets, little or no information is currently available regarding the effect of these diets on coronary artery disease and coronary blood flow. Twenty-six people were studied for 1 year by using myocardial perfusion imaging (MPI), echocardiography (ECHO), and serial blood work to evaluate the extent of changes in regional coronary blood flow, regional wall motion abnormalities, and several independent variables known to be important in the development and progression of coronary artery disease. Treatment was based on homocysteine, Lp (a), C-reactive protein (C-RP), triglycerides, total cholesterol, high-density lipoprotein cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, very low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, and fibrinogen levels. Each variable was independently treated as previously reported. MPI and ECHO were performed at the beginning and end of the study for each individual. The 16 people (treatment group/TG) studied modified their dietary intake as instructed. Ten additional individuals elected a different dietary regimen consisting of a "high-protein" (high protein group/HPG) diet, which they believed would "improve" their overall health. Patients in the TG demonstrated a reduction in each of the independent variables studied with regression in both the extent and severity of coronary artery disease (CAD) as quantitatively measured by MPI. Recovery of viable myocardium was seen in 43.75% of myocardial segments in these patients, documented with both MPI and ECHO evaluations. Individuals in the HPG showed worsening of their independent variables. Most notably, fibrinogen, Lp (a), and C-RP increased by an average of 14%, 106%, and 61% respectively. Progression of the extent and severity of CAD was documented in each of the vascular territories with an overall cumulative progression of 39.7%. The differences between progression and extension of disease in the HPG and the regression of disease in the TG were statistically significant. Patients following recommended treatment for each of the independent variables were able to regress both the extent and severity of their coronary artery disease (CAD), as well as improve their myocardial wall motion (function) while following the prescribed medical and dietary guidelines. However, individuals receiving the same medical treatment but following a high-protein diet showed a worsening of independent risk factors, in addition to progression of CAD. These results would suggest that high-protein diets may precipitate progression of CAI through increases in lipid deposition and inflammatory and coagulation pathways.



[1] Diabetes. 2006 Aug;55(8):2301-10. Free fatty acids inhibit insulin signaling-stimulated endothelial nitric oxide synthase activation through upregulating PTEN or inhibiting Akt kinase. Wang XL, Zhang L, Youker K.

[2] Diabetes. 2000 Jul;49(7):1231-8. Free fatty acid elevation impairs insulin-mediated vasodilation and nitric oxide production. Steinberg HO, Paradisi G, Hook G.

[3] Arterioscler Thromb Vasc Biol. 2005 May;25(5):989-94. Free fatty acid impairment of nitric oxide production in endothelial cells is mediated by IKKbeta. Kim F, Tysseling KA, Rice J.

Edited by misterE, 23 January 2013 - 02:28 AM.

[misterE]

Here is a really good reason not to consume dairy and beef...

Since dairy and beef are loaded with saturated-fat, which causes vascular insulin-resistance and decreases nitric-oxide production, chronic consumption of these rich-foods could cause impotence. After all, Viagra's main mechanism of action is to increase nitric-oxide levels (in the penis).

Is it any wonder why you see commercial for greasy cheese-burgers and then the next commercial is a Viagra commercial? To avoid heart-disease and impotence, wouldn’t it be a good idea to eat a diet that has been shown to reverse actual cardiovascular-disease?

[DePaw]

Yes actually, I'll follow the diet that many of my friends with heart disease have used to not only prevent further heart attacks or strokes, but to cure their diabetes, obesity, hypertension, and other such issues... a low-carb high-fat medium-protein animal-based diet.

Neither of us are going to agree on this issue, are views are polar opposites. I recommend watching a film called FatHead, it's free on hulu.com btw. Otherwise going on is pointless.

[johnross47]

This conversation is a perfect example of how the world is a very confusing place for the non scientific. Two well informed researched and well argued but totally opposed views and no doubt some others could have joined in. If I was to pick one of the sets of opinions on this forum I could become a veggie or a vegan or paleo or high carb or low carb etc etc etc.I find it difficult enough getting all the nutrients balanced on cron-o-meter on a diet of lots of fruit and veg, a bit of fish and meat and some diary. Taking any food type away would make my diet planning a life dominating monster. As it is I'm probably getting too much of some nutrients such as copper iron and manganese.....hard to avoid with lots of veg, and restricting other components would likely only make it worse. ( I do donate blood which I'm told will help.)







of well in

[scottknl]

I try to relax a little bit about it and think that perhaps some can live on any diet at all (most current super centenarians), some only on low or no animal products (veg/vegan) and maybe others need a higher protein/lower carb approach (paleo). I'd suggest that people try veg or vegan with healthy fats first and if they feel like crap, then try paleo. I agree that it is quite confusing and I suggest that trial and error is the only solution because different people seem to respond differently.

[misterE]

Yes actually, I'll follow the diet that many of my friends with heart disease have used to not only prevent further heart attacks or strokes, but to cure their diabetes, obesity, hypertension, and other such issues... a low-carb high-fat medium-protein animal-based diet.

OK. But you do acknowledge (admit) that there are no studies using that type of diet (high-fat animal based) to reverse underlying atherosclerosis, unlike the low-fat complex-carbohydrate vegan diets used with the Ornish, Esselstyn and Fleming studies, do you not?

I recommend watching a film called FatHead

I've seen it. Once you study and understand the functions and benefits of insulin and the underlying causes of lipotoxicity and ectopic-fat infiltration, you will realize… it is flat-out scientifically-flawed.

As I have mentioned earlier, 100 years ago, before the epidemic of metabolic-syndrome, Americans ate much more whole-grains, beans, potatoes and less meat, dairy, total-fat and total-sugar.

But there are many other grease-balls spewing out this same garbage: "eat meat and grease and be healthy". Gary Taubes comes to mind, Atkins comes to mind. The reason these quacks are so popular is because they tell the lay public what they want to hear: "oatmeal is bad, it will clog your arteries... eat bacon and eggs for breakfast instead"!

Otherwise going on is pointless.

"Going on" is how people (who are reading this thread) will make the choice on which advice to follow. You are promoting a diet which has been condemned (by numerous well-done studies) in causing metabolic-syndrome, cancer, diabetes and cardiovascular-disease. On top of that, the diet you recommend and follow is not sustainable for the earth's populace. My diet (whole-grains, beans, fruits and vegetables) has been shown to reverse metabolic-syndrome [1-2], cancer [3-4], diabetes [5-6], and cardiovascular-disease [7-9], and is the only diet that is sustainable.

The evidence is crystal clear. The only reason to include beef or milk/cheese in the diet would be for taste. It offers hardly any benefits and poses many drawbacks.



[1] Metabolism. 2006 Jul;55(7):871-8. Effect of a short-term diet and exercise intervention on metabolic syndrome in overweight children. Chen AK, Roberts CK, Barnard RJ.

[2] Sports Med. 1994 Oct;18(4):218-28. Exercise and diet in the prevention and control of the metabolic syndrome. Barnard RJ, Wen SJ.

[3] J Urol. 2005 Sep;174(3):1065-9. Intensive lifestyle changes may affect the progression of prostate cancer. Ornish D, Weidner G, Fair WR.

[4] Am J Clin Nutr. 2007 Sep;86(3):s889-93. Prostate cancer prevention by nutritional means to alleviate metabolic syndrome. Barnard RJ.

[5] Diabetes Care. 1983 May-Jun;6(3):268-73. Long-term use of a high-complex-carbohydrate, high-fiber, low-fat diet and exercise in the treatment of NIDDM patients. Barnard RJ, Massey MR, Cherny S.

[6] Am J Clin Nutr. 2009 May;89(5):1588S-1596S. A low-fat vegan diet and a conventional diabetes diet in the treatment of type 2 diabetes: a randomized, controlled, 74-wk clinical trial. Barnard ND, Cohen J, Jenkins DJ.

[7] Angiology. 2000 Aug;51(8):617-29. Reversing heart disease in the new millennium--the Fleming unified theory. Fleming RM.

[8] Prev Cardiol. 2001 Autumn;4(4):171-177. Resolving the Coronary Artery Disease Epidemic Through Plant-Based Nutrition. Esselstyn CB Jr.

[9] JAMA. 1998 Dec 16;280(23):2001-7. Intensive lifestyle changes for reversal of coronary heart disease. Ornish D, Scherwitz LW, Billings JH.

Edited by misterE, 24 January 2013 - 12:06 AM.

[misterE]

I find it difficult enough getting all the nutrients balanced on cron-o-meter on a diet of lots of fruit and veg,

Fruit and vegetables is not a sustainable diet plan. I suggest whole-grains, beans and potatoes as the emphasis, combined with vegetables on the side... fruit as a desert and nuts as a delicacy.

[misterE]

I'd suggest that people try veg or vegan with healthy fats

This diet plan is also unsustainable. To be a vegan and get enough calories from healthy-fats would mean you would have to eat nuts and avocadoes daily... that can be very expensive, not to mention, you would still be on a high-fat diet, which isn't healthy at all.

That is why starch plays such a crucial role. Starch is not fat and it is not simple-sugar, it is metabolically perfect, in fact, starch (which is composed of complex chains of glucose) is what the body is supposed to use as fuel... not fat. Starch is also very cheap and has a long shelf-life.

Starches and vegetables... hey, it’s the diet that allowed for civilization and supported the millions of men in ancient armies that conquested around the world. Without starches or whole-grains, humanity would not have evolved to the degree that we have.

Edited by misterE, 24 January 2013 - 12:35 AM.

[johnross47]

I find it difficult enough getting all the nutrients balanced on cron-o-meter on a diet of lots of fruit and veg,

Fruit and vegetables is not a sustainable diet plan. I suggest whole-grains, beans and potatoes as the emphasis, combined with vegetables on the side... fruit as a desert and nuts as a delicacy.

I probably oversimplified my food list....I include quite lot of nuts beans lentils etc in my diet....I was keeping the list short and classing them as veg and fruit........which they are, if like me, you spent a lot of time doing botany.

[scottknl]

I'd suggest that people try veg or vegan with healthy fats

This diet plan is also unsustainable. To be a vegan and get enough calories from healthy-fats would mean you would have to eat nuts and avocadoes daily... that can be very expensive, not to mention, you would still be on a high-fat diet, which isn't healthy at all.

That is why starch plays such a crucial role. Starch is not fat and it is not simple-sugar, it is metabolically perfect, in fact, starch (which is composed of complex chains of glucose) is what the body is supposed to use as fuel... not fat. Starch is also very cheap and has a long shelf-life.

Starches and vegetables... hey, it’s the diet that allowed for civilization and supported the millions of men in ancient armies that conquested around the world. Without starches or whole-grains, humanity would not have evolved to the degree that we have.

Did I miss the news flash that vegans can't eat any grains/starches? I have them everyday as a part of my diet, but since they are quite addictive and easy to overeat, I limit them. Also, nuts and avocado are quite reasonable and not so expensive and are also a part of my daily diet. I don't see why they wouldn't be sustainable for a larger population. If you have a combination of a limited amount of grains and starches along with healthy fats from nuts and avocados, it can be quite cheap to eat. And you don't need to be super low fat to reduce arterial plaque. If you're low calorie, then you can get > 30% of your calories from healthy fats and reduce arterial plaques at the same time. There's a CR study that was done on CRSociety volunteers that shows that their IMT results are very good after an average of 6 or 7 years on CR even when some have higher healthy fat content in their diets. There's more than one way to skin the cat, Mister E.

[johnross47]

http://www.bmj.sk/20...0-10.pdf finds very little difference between vegetarians and "health conscious non-vegetarians" and nothing to support vegans who are at risk of other problems stemming from deficiencies, particularly in B2 and B12. The healthiest people in Europe are identified as meat eating Icelanders, Swedes and Swiss. The big advantage it finds for vegetarian diets is that obesity is lower which almost certainly could explain the similarity with health conscious non vegetarians.....if you eat enough veg there's not much room left for meat so your diet will be nutrient rich and lower calorie.

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

another interesting read but the extract has important pages removed, perhaps to tempt you to cough up £100+ for the book. Again it shows higher levels of homocysteine and lower levels of B12 in vegans.

Edited by johnross47, 24 January 2013 - 05:19 PM.

[DePaw]

If you read Denise's review of Forks Over Knives, to which I already linked, it shows that it's the fish eats who win over vegetarians.

[johnross47]

I'm very fond of fish.....eat it several times a week....fresh fish maybe twice and one or two cans of sardines. (fresh sardines are nicer but I'm only allowed to cook them outside so they're a summer food.)

[scottknl]

http://www.bmj.sk/20...0-10.pdf finds very little difference between vegetarians and "health conscious non-vegetarians" and nothing to support vegans who are at risk of other problems stemming from deficiencies, particularly in B2 and B12. The healthiest people in Europe are identified as meat eating Icelanders, Swedes and Swiss. The big advantage it finds for vegetarian diets is that obesity is lower which almost certainly could explain the similarity with health conscious non vegetarians.....if you eat enough veg there's not much room left for meat so your diet will be nutrient rich and lower calorie.

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

another interesting read but the extract has important pages removed, perhaps to tempt you to cough up £100+ for the book. Again it shows higher levels of homocysteine and lower levels of B12 in vegans.

The biggest problems I have with meat and dairy are the contamination issues. However, the research just doesn't show that the risks translates into a shorter lifespan. Still, I'd rather avoid the sickness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlNjIkxCJqM
http://nutritionfact...dant-chemicals/


With Fish it's the contamination of heavy metals and other industrial toxins from the pollution. It's not showing up yet in shorter lifespans, but I think before my life is finished, it will. When I was a young lad, we only had 3.3 billion people on this planet. Now we have 7.1 billion. That's a lot of pollutants into the ocean.
http://nutritionfact...e-most-mercury/

Eating lower on the food chain is best to avoid contamination, so sardines are probably a good choice.

Edited by scottknl, 24 January 2013 - 06:55 PM.

[johnross47]

Some of your risk may be because of where you live......in rural Scotland we get meat which has lived in a field and eaten grass. Beef cattle may have had supplements in winter but not the best quality, and the sheep are too low value to be given anything except supplementary feeding when the snow is too deep, which is not very often. (we have only had about 1mm this year so far and it lasted one morning.) The hormones used on cattle in USA are not legal here. We can also get game such as pheasants, partridge, grouse, mallard, rabbit and venison, quite easily and cheaply. (remember to pick out the pellets) I just choose to eat meat sparingly and to eat fruit, veg, pulses, home made organic whole grain bread, fish much more. Most of the meat I eat is chicken.....probably more than all other meats put together.



this is today's list from cron-o-meter

Milk, nonfat, fluid, without added vitamin A and vitamin D (fat free or skim) 200 g 68.0
vit D 1 g 0.0
Tea, black, brewed, prepared with tap water 600 g 6.0
Coffee, brewed from grounds, prepared with tap water 300 g 3.0
Bananas, raw 98 g 87.2
Rice, white, long-grain, regular, cooked 50 g 65.0
Butter, without salt 15 g 107.6
Chicken, roasting, meat only, cooked, roasted 65 g 108.6
Onions, raw 50 g 20.0
Parsley, fresh 3 g 1.1
Soup, stock, chicken, home-prepared 300 g 108.0
wheatgerm bread 100 g 215.0
Brussels sprouts, raw 80 g 34.4
fish oil 1 g 0.0
Fennel, bulb, raw 100 g 31.0
Peas, green, raw 50 g 40.5
Squash, zucchini, baby, raw 200 g 42.0
Spinach, raw 200 g 46.0
Nuts, almonds 12 g 69.0
Oil, olive, Extra Virgin 20 g 176.8
Cucumber, peeled, raw 100 g 12.0
Leeks, (bulb and lower leaf-portion), raw 100 g 61.0
zinc 0.5 g 0.0
Rhubarb, raw 115 g 24.2
Chocolate, dark, 70-85% cacao solids 10 g 59.8

I've aslo just read, as a snippet in something else, that nutrient requirements are set at a level that is enough for 97.5% of the population to get enough. As a small person I may well be getting far more than I need

[DePaw]

MisterE,
I highly recommend this book: "Cholesterol and Saturated Fat Prevent Heart Disease - Evidence from 101 Scientific Papers" by David Evans, link: http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/1781485089

Also his webiste: http://healthydietsa...blogspot.co.uk/

And his other book: "Low Cholesterols Leads to Early Death - Evidence from 101 Scientific Papers" (http://www.amazon.co.../dp/1781487812/)

Some more good reading includes Gary Taubes' two books "Good Calories Bad Calories and "Why We Get Fat And What To Do About It". (http://www.amazon.co.../dp/1400033462/ and http://www.amazon.co.../dp/0307474259/)

Edited by DePaw, 25 January 2013 - 11:03 AM.

[misterE]

they are quite addictive and easy to overeat, I limit them.

I believe that starches are hard to overeat, first off they are not hyperpalatable (unlike fat and sugar), and secondly they are somewhat calorie-dilute compared to the calorie-dense fatty-foods, third, starch (glucose) turns off the appetite. It would be very hard or impossible to gain body-fat from eating excess-starch for many reasons: starch doesn't trigger de novo lipogenesis (fatty-acid synthesis from carbohydrate) unlike simple-sugars, starch increases thermogenesis (heat-production) which helps to burn calories off as heat instead of being stored, also excess glucose is stored as glycogen.

To get 2000 calories from potatoes would mean you would have to eat 8 or 9 plain baked potatoes, you will be lucky if you could eat half that amount. Try overeating plain barley, you would have to eat 9 cups of cooked barley! Not going to happen (comfortably anyhow). Now try overeating oil, it would only take 16 tablespoons of oil (which you could easily sneak into your food and not even know it) to consume 2000 calories from fat, which contrary to glucose, doesn't satisfy appetite, doesn't increase thermogenesis and 90% of the energy from the fat ends up being stored in the adipose-tissue or it ends up being stored ectopically (in the muscles, liver, pancreas, heart, etc.).

And you don't need to be super low fat to reduce arterial plaque. If you're low calorie, then you can get > 30% of your calories from healthy fats and reduce arterial plaques at the same time.

The only studies I know of that have actually shown regression of atherosclerosis used 10% fat/ starch diets. Will you post the study you mentioned?

Edited by misterE, 26 January 2013 - 05:59 PM.

[misterE]

The biggest problems I have with meat and dairy are the contamination issues.

Great point! We can argue all day about how beef and milk is loaded with saturated-fat and cholesterol, but 90% of our exposure to environmental-chemicals (like dioxins, PCBs, DDT, etc.) come from eating meat, dairy, eggs and fish. Fish is the food that is the most contaminated with dioxins and heavy-metals. These chemicals are known carcinogens and hormone disruptors.

To avoid these nasty chemicals, eat low on the food chain (plant-based), eat organic when possible, and drink clean water.

[misterE]

MisterE,
I highly recommend this book: "Cholesterol and Saturated Fat Prevent Heart Disease - Evidence from 101 Scientific Papers" by David Evans,



And his other book: "Low Cholesterols Leads to Early Death - Evidence from 101 Scientific Papers"

Some more good reading includes Gary Taubes' two books "Good Calories Bad Calories and "Why We Get Fat And What To Do About It".

I want to see studies. Show me some studies showing high saturated-fat intake improve diabetes, heart-disease or obesity. Show us the citations that support your claim.

[scottknl]

One time when I was reading websites and studies, I ran across a chart of risk when looking at fractions of LDL and HDL. It looked like a wedge where there were essentially two ways to have the lowest risk. One way was to have low LDL cholesterol and moderate HDL. The second way was to have high LDL and at the same time have very high HDL. Essentially it supports that paleo could work where people have high saturated fats in their diets and this results in a very high HDL (> 100 mg/dl). Also it explains that lower calorie diets also work where HDL is around 60 and Total Cholesterol was around 140 ish. I wish I could present it and dig into whether the data was flaky or not. I was looking at how the Framingham heart study evaluated risk. I've looked high and low for this chart, but can't find it again.

If one eats a high simple carb diet for even a short period of time, it can depress HDL levels and increase triglycerides dramatically. This can lead to a temporary risk elevation. Since eating carbs makes you want to eat more carbs, this can be a difficult cycle to break. This is why my preference is for the lower calorie diet rather than the paleo route.

[DePaw]

Scottknl,
LDL density is more important than number. Small dense LDL is dangerous, while 'fluffy' LDL is harmless though as it's too big to get inside cracks in the artery wall. The best predictor of LDL size without measuring it directly in the triglyceride/HDL ratio, under 2 being ideal.

MisterE,
The book has the studies, duh!

Also I know many people who previously had heart disease, diabetes, obesity, etc, gone on a low carb high fat mostly animal food diets and even had heart scans showing they're clean as a whistle, no plaque and a calcium score of 0. So much for your theory.

[scottknl]

From: http://www.pnas.org/...9.full.pdf html

Long-term calorie restriction is highly effective in
reducing the risk for atherosclerosis in humans
Luigi Fontana*†, Timothy E. Meyer*, Samuel Klein*, and John O. Holloszy*‡


Abstract

Little is known regarding the long-term effects of caloric restriction (CR) on the risk for atherosclerosis. We evaluated the effect of CR on risk factors for atherosclerosis in individuals who are restricting food intake to slow aging. We studied 18 individuals who had been on CR for an average of 6 years and 18 age-matched healthy individuals on typical American diets. We measured serum lipids and lipoproteins, fasting plasma glucose and insulin, blood pressure (BP), high-sensitivity C-reactive protein (CRP), platelet-derived growth factor AB (PDGF-AB), body composition, and carotid artery intima-media thickness (IMT). The CR group were leaner than the comparison group (body mass index, 19.6 ± 1.9 vs. 25.9 ± 3.2 kg/m²; percent body fat, 8.7 ± 7% vs. 24 ± 8%). Serum total cholesterol (Tchol), low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, ratio of Tchol to high-density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-C), triglycerides, fasting glucose, fasting insulin, CRP, PDFG-AB, and systolic and diastolic BP were all markedly lower, whereas HDL-C was higher, in the CR than in the American diet group. Medical records indicated that the CR group had serum lipid-lipoprotein and BP levels in the usual range for individuals on typical American diets, and similar to those of the comparison group, before they began CR. Carotid artery IMT was ≈40% less in the CR group than in the comparison group. Based on a range of risk factors, it appears that long-term CR has a powerful protective effect against atherosclerosis. This interpretation is supported by the finding of a low carotid artery IMT.
...snip...
Nutrient Intake. Nutrient intakes differed significantly between
the diet groups. The CR subjects designed their diets to consume
a balance of foods that supply more than 100% of the Recommended
Daily Intake (RDI) for all of the essential nutrients,
while minimizing energy content (1,112–1,958 kcal_day). They
eat a wide variety of vegetables, fruits, nuts, dairy products, egg
whites, wheat and soy proteins, and meat (_26% of calories from
protein, _28% from fat, and _46% from complex carbohydrates).
All of CR group strictly avoid processed foods containing
trans fatty acids and high glycemic foods (e.g., refined
carbohydrates, desserts, snacks, and soft drinks). The comparison
group ate typical U.S. diets containing nearly twice as
many calories as the CR subjects (1,976–3,537 kcal_day; _18%
calories from protein, _32% from fat, and _50% from
carbohydrates).

Carotid IMT. IMT of the common carotid artery was _40% less
in the CR than in the comparison group (0.5 _ 0.1 mm in the CR
and 0.8 _ 0.1 mm in the comparison group; P _ 0.0001). None
of the individuals on CR had evidence of atherosclerotic plaque,
defined as an IMT of more than 1.0 mm and an increase of at
least 100% compared to an adjacent wall segment (17).
...snip...

To me this shows that you can do a low calorie diet and have no atherosclerosis. It's pretty sure that the people in the CR group did have atheroclerotic plaque at one time, since they did have the same diet as the control group prior to beginning their CR practice. Note the 28% fat intake in the CR group.

[Angelo]

Gary Taub is a God damn quack.

http://yourdoctorsor...-part-1-casein/


See what this doctor thinks of the China Study.

[DePaw]

Low carb diets KILL cancer by starving them of energy:

[misterE]

If one eats a high simple carb diet for even a short period of time, it can depress HDL levels and increase triglycerides dramatically. This can lead to a temporary risk elevation. Since eating carbs makes you want to eat more carbs, this can be a difficult cycle to break.

There is no doubt that sugar increases triglycerides, but starch doesn't, so to say a high-carb diet increases triglycerides is only true in the context of sugar, but not a high-starch diet. Here is a study showing that when people replace sugar with starch, they stop activating de novo lipogenesis and triglyceride production:

Am J Clin Nutr. 1998 Apr;67(4):631-9.
Human fatty acid synthesis is reduced after the substitution of dietary starch for sugar.
Hudgins LC, Seidman CE, Diakun J, Hirsch J.

Abstract
Using new nonisotopic and isotopic methods, we showed previously that fatty acid synthesis was markedly stimulated in weight-stable normal volunteers by a very-low-fat formula diet with 10% of energy as fat and 75% as short glucose polymers. In this study, we determined whether fatty acid synthesis was equally stimulated by a very-low-fat solid diet made with foods consumed typically. Four normal volunteers consumed the same very-low-fat formula diet for 25 d and then an isoenergetic solid food diet with 10% of energy as fat and 75% as starch, simple sugars, and fiber for 25 d. To measure fatty acid synthesis, the fatty acid compositions of the diets were matched to the composition of each subject's adipose tissue and compared with the composition of VLDL-triacylglycerol. In all subjects, the large increases in newly formed palmitate and decreases in linoleate in VLDL-triacylglycerol were quickly reversed by the solid food diet, and the fraction of de novo synthesized fatty acids in fasting VLDL-triacylglycerol decreased from 30-54% to 0-1%. In a second group of subjects, the stimulation of fatty acid synthesis by the formula diet with 75% glucose polymers was similarly reduced by a formula diet with amounts of fat, starch, and sugar chosen to mimic those of the solid food diet, but persisted after the addition of fiber or a diet with 75% sugar. In conclusion, an increase in fatty acid synthesis and palmitaterich, linoleate-poor VLDL-triacylglycerol induced by very-low-fat, high-sugar diets may be reduced by the substitution of dietary starch for sugar with potentially beneficial effects on cardiovascular health.



Fat (which an excess amount can cause lipotoxicity and metabolic-syndrome) comes from one of two places. You can eat it directly as animal-fat, vegetable-oil, margarine, nuts… or your body can synthesize fatty-acids from carbohydrate, however as the above study clearly showed, the body does not make fat out of starch, like it does with simple-sugar. Since simple-sugar increases circulating triglycerides, these triglycerides inhibit leptin and insulin signaling (in the brain) and cause leptin and insulin-resistance, so the body doesn't receive its satiety signals.

Edited by misterE, 27 January 2013 - 06:16 PM.

[misterE]

So much for your theory.

I don't know DePaw... Respectively, I feel like I have put forth a better argument than you have, hopefully people reading this thread will make the right choice. You could’ve at least post some studies supporting your claim that a diet high in saturated-fat and cholesterol can reverse heart-disease, diabetes and cancer. My concept, isn't much of a "theory" considering this diet-plan has been shown to reverse heart-disease, cancer and diabetes (and I also posted the studies documenting that as well).

Edited by misterE, 27 January 2013 - 05:49 PM.

[DePaw]

MisterE,
The thing about science you have to understand is that no matter how many positive results you get, you only need one negative result and your hypothesis is wrong, this is called the null hypothesis. For example if your hypothesis is that all swans are white, doesn't matter how many white swans you shows me if I find one black swan then your hypothesis is wrong. Similarly if I have one piece of evidence of heart disease reversal on a high fat low carb diet then fat can't be the cause of heart disease. Full stop.