102 replies to this topic

[thedevinroy]

This topic has been brought up so many times before, and I just want to kill it my style. I want to be the director for the ensemble of reviews and questions this round. Thank you to all those who have researched this medication on this forum and posted their experiences. It has been a great help.

In fact, I made a short summary of a few testimonies and PubMed abstracts to give to my psychiatrist. One of the testimonies was from this forum. She took one look at the stack from across the room and decided not to read and and just write the script. This was prescription #4, and she knew the drill.

Selegiline for Adult ADHD: http://www.longecity...for-adult-adhd/

I was looking for something that worked with a low side effect profile, and she knew that's why I was there - not to settle for something to fix ADHD and make me a zombie with hemorrhoids or bursts of anger. While filling the script, she gave me a pamphlet containing all the wonderful foods I couldn't eat.

• Aged Cheese and foods containing Tryamine. (Tyrosine that's been sitting around awhile.)
• Chocolate. Coffee. Caffeine. Phenethylamine.
• Any anti-depressant or stimulant medications or supplements.
• Wikipedia: MAOI Dangers

She was nervous and covering her back. MAO inhibitors are a nightmare for psychiatrists. They have so many interactions with foods and other drugs that they feel like they are writing their ticket to license revocation or something. She got me out of her office as soon as possible. She was pretty uncomfortable with her decision, but this was med #4, and she was ready to get it right, even if it meant taking a little risk.

#60. 2x/day. 5mg. Tablets or Capsules. (They had capsules.)

After waiting 5 days from taking Nortriptyline (could have waited longer, but the half life was over days ago), I decided to go to Walgreen's and give it a shot. I happily took my medicine, bought some benzocaine for my toothache, and left. During the day, my toothache just kept getting worse, so I took some advil, Picamilon, and Huperzine A.

The thing with me and Huperzine A is that I cannot take it without an antidepressant or else I get kind of sad for no reason. Although I am unable to come with a study, it would make sense that AChE inhibitors cause lowered betaine levels. It is generally accepted that AChE inhibitors can cause depression, but I'm pretty sure it has to do with betaine levels since research concerning dopamine receptor regulation and synthesis is positive, rather than negative. My antidepressant of choice is usually Methylene Blue, 3-5mg with 500mg Vitamin C (tablet form - my blood is the stirring stick).

In a panic of pain, I washed down the Advil with my concoction of Picamilon, Huperzine A, Methylene Blue, and water. I applied some more benzocaine and waited for it to kick in and take me away to a better place - a painless place. I began to feel warm and silly. The pain subsided.

As I sat in my chair, my ass cheek twitched. Weird. Then my ass cheek twitched again... hard. Huh. Next my man-tit jumped up. Oh $#!~! I've forgotten I took the Selegiline and mixed it with Methylene Blue. Pretty sure this is bad. I thought... I can turn it into Melatonin... this serotonin in my blood stream goes to Melatonin pretty fast... all I need is some B6 and Magnesium, and it'll be over.

In the other room, I found a stash of Almonds. Just what I need. Nuts are full of B Vitamins and Minerals. Almonds, especially. I grabbed a handful and chowed down on a mouthful of nuts. Within minutes, my twitching subsided to a gentle infrequent man-tit jiggle. My head became clear, and I became a lot less silly.

Thank God for nuts in yo mouf.

Four hours later, while approaching the same Walgreen's, I had a sudden need to vomit. Perfect. I can puke where I got the medication... how fitting, it's their fault for not telling me I can't have fish antifungal with my painkillers, right? Not. After cleaning up my glorious exiting performance, I bought some ginger ale and club crackers.

My digestive system didn't feel the same for a few days after that. Today actually. I had a honkin' Chimichanga last night that knocked me out from food overload. With a gut full of slowly digesting food, I finally felt normal again. I also had some spicy chicken foods from Wendy's the past couple days, and if it weren't for that, I would have thought it was the Selegiline giving me IBS this whole time.

Overall, the experience has been quite enjoyable. Selegiline is like if Methylene Blue and Monster Energy Drink had a baby; Modafinil and Dunkin Donuts had a baby; and those babies F^&~*d... right. It's the product of baby F&^*%ing. For those who got that, I'm no stoner, but Pineapple Express was hilarious. Okay, you get the idea. It's a mixed bag of hyperness and happiness.

I'm waiting for the full effects to kick in fully, but so far so good. Day 4. Some things of note...

• Extra hyper and silly. I feel like I'm a 15 year old again. This effect has seems to be increasing. After reading studies on Selegiline, it seems that dopamine production is lowered over time, reaching a homeostasis. This effect may be temporary, but it oddly resembles hypomania... if it isn't actually hypomania. I'll give it a month and see if this subsides or retains in a manageable state.
• Carbs make you super tired. Protein, even nuts, seems to make you focused and energetic. Coffee, caffeine, chocolate, etc. is 4x as effective as usual.
• Appetite is low, but you can still stuff your face like there's no tomorrow.
• Methylene Blue makes you twitch and vomit.
• There is some subtle twitching, but it is quite infrequent. Mostly with a little caffeine (not a lot, just enough to get going).
• No shaking apart from usual. (I shake anyway.)
• Increase in neurological pain. Toothache is worsened. Neck kinks are more annoying.
• Sex drive incredibly high. Evening wood. Morning wood. Driving wood. It's like a forest all day. Erections are not spontaneous, but as easy as 1-2-3.
• Strange bouts of tiredness. I suppose that's normal for me, but it's such a contrast to the usual Selegiline effect of heightened energy. Perhaps this is a crash?
• Confidence. Social butterfly-ness. Jokes are funnier when I tell them. Girls are more approachable. Loneliness doesn't bite. The air feels like it has more oxygen. Speaking my mind is faster and automatic. Consequently, I'm a bit of refreshing awkwardness.
• Sometimes I forget to start to breathe again. I feel like my brain is always well oxygenated, so missing a couple breaths here and there won't hurt as long as I start again. Only happens after holding my breath.
• Thought activity is increased. I literally think faster. I'm more accurate. I'm more thorough.
• Positiveness is increased. Negative things seems neutral or matter-of-fact.
• Though irritability isn't increased (actually decreased), the ease to act on it is increased. Double edged sword... because when I act on it, and it gets ignored, I get more irritable than if I ignored it. Feels like it happens 50% of the time.
• Ability to switch thoughts and start anew is easier. In addition, automatic tangential thinking is not increased. Creativity is retained, even enhanced by this effect.
• I still have hyper focus. (see this thread? wow, right?)
• Motivation to plan ahead is increased, but the motivation to start a project is only slightly elevated as of right now. Still have the "wall".
• Focus is elevated only slightly. Pain in staying on task is slightly numbed.
• Getting distracted has not improved 100%. I am still just as easily distracted by external stimuli, but internal stimuli distraction seems to be somewhat quenched.
• Concentration on things I dislike has not improved 100%. Chores, work, etc. all suck just as much, but I don't get a headache from wanting to do other things so bad.

Questions, comments, critiques, advice?

[computeTHIS]

There are indeed a ton of things contraindicated with Selegiline that shouldn't be. It takes careful study of the pharmacology to figure out what's good and what isn't.

My dopamine levels have re-normalized while being on Selegiline, but many of the benefits still remain. The hyperactive libido seems to subside as dopamine levels re-normalize. I'm curious what you would recommend combining with Selegiline to keep dopamine levels up. I'm trying Bupropion, but so far at the 150mg dose the effects are negligible. I'll try 300mg Bupropion next week. PEA is tempting but I would prefer something that lasted longer than 20 minutes.

Tianeptine is much more stimulating than Bupropion I would say. I wonder if there's a dopamine analogue of Tianeptine, like a dopamine reuptake enhancer...

[nito]

hey devinthayer, do you know where i can get it online without a prescription? as i dont have access to walhgreens in the uk

[manic_racetam]

Thanks for the thorough review. I think single-substance, detailed reviews are almost always lacking around here for anything besides the main racetams. I was slightly disappointed by selegiline, which may be due to my expecting a replacement for methylphenidate, or because of the short duration of my trial.

It helped with energy and mood a bit, but unfortunately did nothing for motivation with starting new projects or motivation to finish old projects... which are my main problems (IMO). I only tried it at 5mg/day for about a month though, so hopefully you'll have better results with the 10mg/day.

Also, have you noticed that it increases your olfactory senses at all? I used to be able to smell such delicate nuances of whatever was in the air when taking it. In retrospect I'm guessing it may have been due to the vasoconstriction/decongestant effects of the L-methamphetamine metabolite. I'd be interested to find out if you get a similar effect though.

Edited by manic_racetam, 21 October 2011 - 08:52 PM.

[unregistered_user]

I took plenty of Methylene Blue and Deprenyl with no ill effects.

[nito]

antiaging systems dont ship to the uk. Is quality health inc trusted for shipping deprenyl over to the uk, anybody knows?

[computeTHIS]

AFAIK, aurapharm.com doesn't require prescriptions. I order Tianeptine from them, they are UK-based too I believe.

[thedevinroy]

There are a couple places to get Deprenyl online... Pet Stores, Anti-Aging Wholesale/Research Stores, and Rogue Pharmacies are the only ones I've seen without prescriptions. It's pretty sketchy to get without prescription if you ask me. Certain brands, too, are available online without prescription for personal use. DepPro is the liquid form. Anipryl is the tablet form (for pets... PetRx sells it, so they have to abide by USA laws of cross animal-human consumption). There are a few other brands on the free market, but I can't find them right now.

[thedevinroy]

I took plenty of Methylene Blue and Deprenyl with no ill effects.

How much of each?

[thedevinroy]

Thanks for the thorough review. I think single-substance, detailed reviews are almost always lacking around here for anything besides the main racetams. I was slightly disappointed by selegiline, which may be due to my expecting a replacement for methylphenidate, or because of the short duration of my trial.

It helped with energy and mood a bit, but unfortunately did nothing for motivation with starting new projects or motivation to finish old projects... which are my main problems (IMO). I only tried it at 5mg/day for about a month though, so hopefully you'll have better results with the 10mg/day.

Also, have you noticed that it increases your olfactory senses at all? I used to be able to smell such delicate nuances of whatever was in the air when taking it. In retrospect I'm guessing it may have been due to the vasoconstriction/decongestant effects of the L-methamphetamine metabolite. I'd be interested to find out if you get a similar effect though.

Smells are a tiny bit stronger. Colors a tiny bit more vivid. Reality is tiny bit more crisp.

The motivation aspect has always been my sticking point. That's a real shame it hasn't worked. Hell, if it works even the slightest bit, I'll be golden.

Yeah it is no methylphenidate. Like I said, it is definitely a strong antidepressant like a Methylene Blue or coffee mixed with a little Modafinil or Energy Drink. It's a bit of both worlds... stimulating and perception enhancing.

I'm going to give it a month before I call it quits. So far it's been a real experience.

[thedevinroy]

There are indeed a ton of things contraindicated with Selegiline that shouldn't be. It takes careful study of the pharmacology to figure out what's good and what isn't.

My dopamine levels have re-normalized while being on Selegiline, but many of the benefits still remain. The hyperactive libido seems to subside as dopamine levels re-normalize. I'm curious what you would recommend combining with Selegiline to keep dopamine levels up. I'm trying Bupropion, but so far at the 150mg dose the effects are negligible. I'll try 300mg Bupropion next week. PEA is tempting but I would prefer something that lasted longer than 20 minutes.

Tianeptine is much more stimulating than Bupropion I would say. I wonder if there's a dopamine analogue of Tianeptine, like a dopamine reuptake enhancer...

Good news, sir. I was beginning to worry I was going to have to cope with Hypomania on a daily basis.

At over the Bupropion 150mg dose, there are some stronger anticholinergic side effects such as tinnitus, brain fog, short term memory recall loss, and vertigo. I wouldn't recommend it. However, like other antidepressants, it takes weeks to get its full effects, so please wait it out if you have the patience.

I haven't tried it with PEA, but energy drinks tend to last a whole day. I can sip on one for literally 8 hours and it would have been like having two or three in that time, maybe four. The crash is less of an onset as well.

The tyrosine hydroxylase thread goes over some ideas on what to do about decreased dopamine production. Caffeine has come up a lot. Lithium has as well. Certain ginsengs might... not sure if those were mentioned, but others have had success batting tolerance issues via ginseng (or Ashwagandha) supplementation.

Amineptine is similar to what you are talking about.

EDIT: Actually Amineptine is more of an NDRI. Sorry, don't known of any enhancers. The only reasons that would be helpful is to reverse tolerance (when taken at night) or to treat schizo-effective disorder. For ADHD, the last thing you want is lowered dopamine levels (unless it also heightens norepinephrine or dopamine D4 receptor density significantly, overcorrecting the problem but that sounds like wizardry, not science). It's just a completely different system. Serotonin is a strange system, when fluctuations up causes mood blunting and fluctuations down causes mood brightening. Dopamine has to do with confidence and drive, less is not more in any case.

Edited by devinthayer, 22 October 2011 - 02:39 PM.

[riloal]

Hi i found this post by a guy in the social anxiety forum, he says:

"A good combination for memory loss and impaired cognitive functioning (also attention deficit disorder) is Stablon and Deprenyl. Stablon has already been covered here so I won't go into how that works, but Deprenyl is a novel MAOI drug which is taken in very low doses once or twice a week for younger people and daily for older people. As it's a selective irreversible MAOI-B inhibitor at low doses, it doesn't have the normal dietary restrictions associated with MAOI-A drugs.

I have tried this combo myself for 2 weeks and not only does it work instantly and amazingly well as an anti-depressant, it also really helped stabilise my mood and energy levels, and more importantly helped my attention/cognitive problems which I frequently experience preventing me from working. The Deprenyl just seems to "repair" the brain somehow and improves cognitive function.

Normally you shouldn't take an MAOI type drug with a serotonin acting antidepressant, however both Stablon and Deprenyl, being novel drugs, they seem to work fine together without any problem at all, at low doses."

It seems a great combo, what do you think?

[computeTHIS]

Hi i found this post by a guy in the social anxiety forum, he says:

"A good combination for memory loss and impaired cognitive functioning (also attention deficit disorder) is Stablon and Deprenyl. Stablon has already been covered here so I won't go into how that works, but Deprenyl is a novel MAOI drug which is taken in very low doses once or twice a week for younger people and daily for older people. As it's a selective irreversible MAOI-B inhibitor at low doses, it doesn't have the normal dietary restrictions associated with MAOI-A drugs.

I have tried this combo myself for 2 weeks and not only does it work instantly and amazingly well as an anti-depressant, it also really helped stabilise my mood and energy levels, and more importantly helped my attention/cognitive problems which I frequently experience preventing me from working. The Deprenyl just seems to "repair" the brain somehow and improves cognitive function.

Normally you shouldn't take an MAOI type drug with a serotonin acting antidepressant, however both Stablon and Deprenyl, being novel drugs, they seem to work fine together without any problem at all, at low doses."

It seems a great combo, what do you think?

You should see my thread: http://www.longecity...__fromsearch__1

Just to clarify, Tianeptine is generic for Stablon, Selegiline is generic for Deprenyl. However, Deprenyl usually seems to refer to the liquid form I believe.

[computeTHIS]

At over the Bupropion 150mg dose, there are some stronger anticholinergic side effects such as tinnitus, brain fog, short term memory recall loss, and vertigo. I wouldn't recommend it. However, like other antidepressants, it takes weeks to get its full effects, so please wait it out if you have the patience.

I didn't realize Bupropion was an ACh inhibitor. It should be noted that Selegiline is also a very weak ACh inhibitor (http://www.selegilin...inesterase.html).

I haven't tried it with PEA, but energy drinks tend to last a whole day. I can sip on one for literally 8 hours and it would have been like having two or three in that time, maybe four. The crash is less of an onset as well.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't quite a few of those energy drinks contain PEA?

Amineptine is similar to what you are talking about.

EDIT: Actually Amineptine is more of an NDRI. Sorry, don't known of any enhancers. The only reasons that would be helpful is to reverse tolerance (when taken at night) or to treat schizo-effective disorder. For ADHD, the last thing you want is lowered dopamine levels (unless it also heightens norepinephrine or dopamine D4 receptor density significantly, overcorrecting the problem but that sounds like wizardry, not science). It's just a completely different system. Serotonin is a strange system, when fluctuations up causes mood blunting and fluctuations down causes mood brightening. Dopamine has to do with confidence and drive, less is not more in any case.

From what I know of Amineptine, it isn't really an option due to an utter lack of manufacturing and it's now incredibly high cost. I would love to give it a try if I could. Dopamine enhancement seems to be at the crux of diseases such as PD and AD, so I don't expect a trivial solution. I think neurogenesis is the key to reversing damage to the dopamine system, with some medicines such as Ladostigil or Coluracetam.

[unregistered_user]

I took plenty of Methylene Blue and Deprenyl with no ill effects.

How much of each?

I took 5mg per day of Deprenyl and about 70mcg per day of MB. I did this for about 1.5 weeks. I'm not saying that it is safe, I'm just saying I did it and AFAIK I'm still alright.

I will say, however, that any of you following the master MB thread will remember I reported some odd chest sensations that made me uncomfortable. Well, I've stopped all supplements and that light discomfort persists. It could be any number of things and perhaps is entirely unrelated to MB+Dep but then again, it might be a result of some of my experiments which is why I feel it's worth mentioning.

I didn't notice anything especially different when combining MB and Deprenyl and ultimately decided to stop everything because of an upcoming surgery.

[thedevinroy]

At over the Bupropion 150mg dose, there are some stronger anticholinergic side effects such as tinnitus, brain fog, short term memory recall loss, and vertigo. I wouldn't recommend it. However, like other antidepressants, it takes weeks to get its full effects, so please wait it out if you have the patience.

I didn't realize Bupropion was an ACh inhibitor. It should be noted that Selegiline is also a very weak ACh inhibitor (http://www.selegilin...inesterase.html).

I haven't tried it with PEA, but energy drinks tend to last a whole day. I can sip on one for literally 8 hours and it would have been like having two or three in that time, maybe four. The crash is less of an onset as well.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't quite a few of those energy drinks contain PEA?

Amineptine is similar to what you are talking about.

EDIT: Actually Amineptine is more of an NDRI. Sorry, don't known of any enhancers. The only reasons that would be helpful is to reverse tolerance (when taken at night) or to treat schizo-effective disorder. For ADHD, the last thing you want is lowered dopamine levels (unless it also heightens norepinephrine or dopamine D4 receptor density significantly, overcorrecting the problem but that sounds like wizardry, not science). It's just a completely different system. Serotonin is a strange system, when fluctuations up causes mood blunting and fluctuations down causes mood brightening. Dopamine has to do with confidence and drive, less is not more in any case.

From what I know of Amineptine, it isn't really an option due to an utter lack of manufacturing and it's now incredibly high cost. I would love to give it a try if I could. Dopamine enhancement seems to be at the crux of diseases such as PD and AD, so I don't expect a trivial solution. I think neurogenesis is the key to reversing damage to the dopamine system, with some medicines such as Ladostigil or Coluracetam.

I didn't know bupropion had affinity for the AChE enzyme, but I do know that it is an acetylcholine nicotonic receptor antagonist (blocker). This seems to attribute to most of its side effects as well as the effect in reducing the effects of nicotine to combat smoking addiction. Actually, this is the effect.

Ladostigil sounds absolutely wonderful, especially for brain injury. I gave it a Google 1+ and an FB Like.

Dopamine reuptake enhancement would force Dopamine out of the synapses. For ADHD, I only see this helpful if it has a short half life and can be taken at night. Although, this may cause sleep apnea. Anyhow, "enhancement" seems like it means something totally different to you.

The AChE inhibition effects seems to be indirect. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12220956 I thought it was strange, since the molecule doesn't resemble acetylcholine. Makes sense.

Some energy drinks I suppose have PEA, but most do not. Some have tyrosine, some have phenylalanine, but rarely do you see one with straight phenethylamine.

[thedevinroy]

Yes, Tianeptine and Selegiline do not have interactions supposedly. I'm not sure how true that would be for me. MAOi's and SSRE's both dumb serotonin into the blood stream, creating peripheral effects if it gets too high. I tend to twitch pretty easily.

See... I took 3mg of Mehtylene Blue with Selegiline. NEVER do that. 70mcg is not enough to activate significant MAO-A activity, let alone MAO-B activity. At that dose it is purely a mitochondrial stimulant and nothing else of an immediate effect. 3mg definitely has MAO activity.

[thedevinroy]

I took plenty of Methylene Blue and Deprenyl with no ill effects.

How much of each?

I took 5mg per day of Deprenyl and about 70mcg per day of MB. I did this for about 1.5 weeks. I'm not saying that it is safe, I'm just saying I did it and AFAIK I'm still alright.

I will say, however, that any of you following the master MB thread will remember I reported some odd chest sensations that made me uncomfortable. Well, I've stopped all supplements and that light discomfort persists. It could be any number of things and perhaps is entirely unrelated to MB+Dep but then again, it might be a result of some of my experiments which is why I feel it's worth mentioning.

I didn't notice anything especially different when combining MB and Deprenyl and ultimately decided to stop everything because of an upcoming surgery.

Good luck with surgery. The best success booster is your own will. Faith like a retard.

[computeTHIS]

Yes, Tianeptine and Selegiline do not have interactions supposedly. I'm not sure how true that would be for me. MAOi's and SSRE's both dumb serotonin into the blood stream, creating peripheral effects if it gets too high. I tend to twitch pretty easily.

Tianeptine should not be confused with the SSRIs or the TCAs. By being a "reuptake enhancer" (the only SSRE, in fact) it reduces free serotonin in plasma. For example, it's shown to cancel the effects of serotonin reuptake inhibition via co-administration with fluoxetine (see http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Tianeptine). When I say "dopamine reuptake enhancer" I'm just referring to a more efficient action of dopamine. The idea of a "reuptake enhancer" like Tianeptine is disputed and it even calls into question the understanding of SSRI mechanics. Neuronal damage, preventing the action of dopamine is the reason I allude to neurogenesis-inducing medicines, since humans lose roughly 13% of their dopaminergic cells per decade in adult life.

Tianeptine isn't listed for negative interactions because it doesn't increase serotonin levels, the only negative interaction is the obvious cancellation with SSRIs.

[Baten]

How long do MAO-effects last? I have been taking 2.5mg selegiline + 60mcg or up to 2mg of methylene blue in the evening, long after I have eaten..
No adverse effects whatsoever so far, but I don't want to mess myself up on MAO intoxication.

As for my findings:
>It's a mixed bag of hyperness and happiness.
Exactly this.

>Appetite is low.
I'm eating like a mad man lately, this might be the methylene blue causing this for some reason though.
No loss in appetite whatsoever.

>Sex drive incredibly high.
Oh, this explains a lot. Was wondering what the hell was wrong me these last days :P

>Strange bouts of tiredness.
Not noticing any of this either. Thankfully.

As for confidence/motivation. I think it's pretty subtle. I'm taking 2.5mg sublingually. I tried 5mg as well, but seemed too high a dose.
One of the most noticeable effects of Selegiline for me, is that it takes away my often occurring feelings of loneliness.
When I'm studying for hours all alone, I sometimes start feeling those and get a little sad. Selegiline peps me up.

Combining noopept (feeling great and confident), selegiline (happier) and pramiracetam (blunts feelings), nothing gets you down.

[computeTHIS]

I'm not sure of his sources, but from biopsychiatry.com:

Normally the brain's irreplaceable complement of 30-40 thousand odd dopaminergic cells tends to die off at around 13% per decade in adult life. Their death diminishes the quality and intensity of experience. It also saps what in more ontologically innocent times might have been called one's life-force. Eighty percent loss of dopamine neurons results in Parkinson's disease, often prefigured by depression. In future, the mood-enhancing transplantation of customized stem cells may restore a youthful zest for life in dopamine-depleted oldsters: such stem cell-derived monoaminergic grafts are currently on offer only to depressed rodents. Deprenyl has an anti-oxidant, immune-system-boosting and dopamine-cell-sparing effect. Its use boosts levels of tyrosine hydroxylase, growth hormone, superoxide dismutase and the production of key interleukins. Deprenyl offers protection against DNA damage and oxidative stress by hydroxyl and peroxyl radical trapping; and against excitotoxic damage from glutamate.

[thedevinroy]

Yes, Tianeptine and Selegiline do not have interactions supposedly. I'm not sure how true that would be for me. MAOi's and SSRE's both dumb serotonin into the blood stream, creating peripheral effects if it gets too high. I tend to twitch pretty easily.

Tianeptine should not be confused with the SSRIs or the TCAs. By being a "reuptake enhancer" (the only SSRE, in fact) it reduces free serotonin in plasma. For example, it's shown to cancel the effects of serotonin reuptake inhibition via co-administration with fluoxetine (see http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Tianeptine). When I say "dopamine reuptake enhancer" I'm just referring to a more efficient action of dopamine. The idea of a "reuptake enhancer" like Tianeptine is disputed and it even calls into question the understanding of SSRI mechanics. Neuronal damage, preventing the action of dopamine is the reason I allude to neurogenesis-inducing medicines, since humans lose roughly 13% of their dopaminergic cells per decade in adult life.

Tianeptine isn't listed for negative interactions because it doesn't increase serotonin levels, the only negative interaction is the obvious cancellation with SSRIs.

An SSRI prevents free serotonin in plasma, while an SSRE does the opposite. What is in the synapse is not in the blood stream. What is in the blood stream is not in the synapse. Sure there is some osmosis either way, and that is why MAOi's are effective, but please understand this: an SSRE ENHANCES the UPTAKE... or rather, it speeds up the removal of serotonin from the synapse... dumping it into the blood stream or "plasma".

Low Synaptic Concentration = High Plasma Concentration

I know you've read this, but please re-read the first sentence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSRE

Any NDRI, DRI, hell even pycnogenol lowers plasma and urine levels of dopamine by increasing the time it stays in the synapse. A DRE would not be useful as a day-time ADHD medicine. The dopaminergic system is very well studied, and high plasma (and urine, which is from plasma) dopamine levels are associated with ADHD.

[thedevinroy]

How long do MAO-effects last? I have been taking 2.5mg selegiline + 60mcg or up to 2mg of methylene blue in the evening, long after I have eaten..
No adverse effects whatsoever so far, but I don't want to mess myself up on MAO intoxication.

As for my findings:
>It's a mixed bag of hyperness and happiness.
Exactly this.

>Appetite is low.
I'm eating like a mad man lately, this might be the methylene blue causing this for some reason though.
No loss in appetite whatsoever.

>Sex drive incredibly high.
Oh, this explains a lot. Was wondering what the hell was wrong me these last days :P

>Strange bouts of tiredness.
Not noticing any of this either. Thankfully.

As for confidence/motivation. I think it's pretty subtle. I'm taking 2.5mg sublingually. I tried 5mg as well, but seemed too high a dose.
One of the most noticeable effects of Selegiline for me, is that it takes away my often occurring feelings of loneliness.
When I'm studying for hours all alone, I sometimes start feeling those and get a little sad. Selegiline peps me up.

Combining noopept (feeling great and confident), selegiline (happier) and pramiracetam (blunts feelings), nothing gets you down.

MAOi effects last two weeks I believe. Possibly less. It permanently disables the enzyme MAO-B, so it takes about two weeks for your body to replace it.

Glad you are finding it useful. Glad you didn't get crashes from it... I attribute it to potentiating the effects of caffeine intake. I definitely feel less lonely while on it. I love going out and venturing off by myself again. Just like a kid.

[thedevinroy]

An update on my experiences... two nights ago, I packed my Selegiline into an old Modafinil bottle, put it into my laptop bag, and took off for the day. During the day, I checked for the Selegiline because it was about time to re-up. It wasn't in my laptop case, I was miles away from my house by now. I had made plans to stay overnight at my mom's house to look for a job, so I was without Selegiline for a full 32 hours.

One thing I noticed was that the hyperness/happiness seemed to die down about 14 hours from my last dose. When I woke up, I couldn't feel the Selegiline effect at all. Back home yesterday, I took the 5mg dose, and got that Selegiline energy back.

For those of you who think this is a strict MAO-B experience, you are dead wrong. Selegiline has actions on AChE, increasing working memory, and it also has active metabolites. The active metabolites are l-amphetamine and l-methamphetamine. Though not as strong as their D-entiomers, they both prove to increase dopaminergic transmission. L-amphetamine is about 1/3 as strong as D-amphetamine. L-methamphetamine may be 1/10 as strong as D-methamphetamine. L-methamphetamine is the primary metabolite and the reason for the short term benefits.

My experience, though unintentional, proves that there are temporary benefits within the ranges of half lives of its metabolites. I consider this no coincidence and no surprise.

[computeTHIS]

An SSRI prevents free serotonin in plasma, while an SSRE does the opposite. What is in the synapse is not in the blood stream. What is in the blood stream is not in the synapse. Sure there is some osmosis either way, and that is why MAOi's are effective, but please understand this: an SSRE ENHANCES the UPTAKE... or rather, it speeds up the removal of serotonin from the synapse... dumping it into the blood stream or "plasma".

Low Synaptic Concentration = High Plasma Concentration

I understand that enhancement means that it speeds up the removal of serotonin from the synapse, however, in the case of Tianeptine we see decreased concentrations of serotonin in plasma. From the Wikipedia article:

Tianeptine has been reported to be very effective for asthma starting in August 1998, when Dr. Fuad Lechin and colleagues at the Central University of Venezuela Institute of Experimental Medicine in Caracas published the results of a 52-week randomized controlled trial of asthmatic children; the children in the groups that received tianeptine had a sharp decrease in clinical rating and increased lung function.^[8] Two years earlier, they had found a close, positive association between free serotonin in plasma and severity of asthma in symptomatic patients.^[9] As tianeptine was the only agent known to both reduce free serotonin in plasma and enhance uptake in platelets, they decided to use it to see if reducing free serotonin levels in plasma would help.^[8] By November 2004, there had been two double-blind placebo-controlled crossover trials, and a 25,000+ patient open-label study lasting over seven years, all showing effectiveness.^[10] A 2005 study in Egypt demonstrated tianeptine to be effective in men with depression and erectile dysfunction.^[11] Tianeptine also has anticonvulsant and analgesic effects,^[6] and a clinical trial in Spain that ended in January 2007 has shown that tianeptine is effective in treating pain due to fibromyalgia.^[12] Tianeptine is also being studied in the treatment of ADD/ADHD.

[bugasman]

The effects I got with selegiline was very mixed and subjective. The last days I'm dosing just 1.25mg sublingual (normal Jumex pills) everyotherday. I started to use it on 4 september with different dosages. In the beggining I tried 2.5 mg oral. The effects were more objective, I felt a increased sense of wellbeing and relaxation, but got very sleepness in the morning and evening. Some users reports that sleepness is normal in the first 6 weeks.

In the last 3 weeks I changed my dose to 1.25 sublingual eod and many effects decreased. I think the effects are very dose/mode of administration dependent. The problem is that Im worried to mess with my MAO system because Im still young, 25 years old. But the researched effects of selegiline are very seductive, like improved life spam, reduced oxidative stress, more wellbeing, libido, motivation...

About motivation on selegiline some days I got very motivated, and some days not. Again this is related to sublingual/oral administration. Maybe sublingual pills are not ideal. I think oral doses are the right method of administration because the metabolities may have a role on the pharmacology of this medicine.

I will try a more scientific approuch on selegiline. Today I will ingest 500 mg L-phenylalanine with 2.5 mg selegiline with food. (I know phenylalanine will confuse the real effects of selegiline, but I want to see if I get more motivation with this combo.) (I dont want L-phenylalaline with empty stomach because 500 mg is too much!). I will try for 1 week. After this I make a report.

ps: smell and colors are really more increased while on selegiline.

[thedevinroy]

An SSRI prevents free serotonin in plasma, while an SSRE does the opposite. What is in the synapse is not in the blood stream. What is in the blood stream is not in the synapse. Sure there is some osmosis either way, and that is why MAOi's are effective, but please understand this: an SSRE ENHANCES the UPTAKE... or rather, it speeds up the removal of serotonin from the synapse... dumping it into the blood stream or "plasma".

Low Synaptic Concentration = High Plasma Concentration

I understand that enhancement means that it speeds up the removal of serotonin from the synapse, however, in the case of Tianeptine we see decreased concentrations of serotonin in plasma. From the Wikipedia article:

Tianeptine has been reported to be very effective for asthma starting in August 1998, when Dr. Fuad Lechin and colleagues at the Central University of Venezuela Institute of Experimental Medicine in Caracas published the results of a 52-week randomized controlled trial of asthmatic children; the children in the groups that received tianeptine had a sharp decrease in clinical rating and increased lung function.^[8] Two years earlier, they had found a close, positive association between free serotonin in plasma and severity of asthma in symptomatic patients.^[9] As tianeptine was the only agent known to both reduce free serotonin in plasma and enhance uptake in platelets, they decided to use it to see if reducing free serotonin levels in plasma would help.^[8] By November 2004, there had been two double-blind placebo-controlled crossover trials, and a 25,000+ patient open-label study lasting over seven years, all showing effectiveness.^[10] A 2005 study in Egypt demonstrated tianeptine to be effective in men with depression and erectile dysfunction.^[11] Tianeptine also has anticonvulsant and analgesic effects,^[6] and a clinical trial in Spain that ended in January 2007 has shown that tianeptine is effective in treating pain due to fibromyalgia.^[12] Tianeptine is also being studied in the treatment of ADD/ADHD.

I'm starting to wonder if its serotonergic effects are entirely presynaptic. Are there any studies showing it crosses the BBB? I can't find any specifically stating that, but you might have better luck possibly finding a study with that implication (like this one mentioning a part of the brain). During a search, I found that it does influence insulin levels, which does cross the BBB, providing a stimulating effect (increasing DA and NE). If the serotonergic effects are mostly pre-synaptic, this would actually reduce serotonin toxicity from MAO inhibitors like Selegiline.

Edited by devinthayer, 24 October 2011 - 02:49 PM.

[thedevinroy]

The effects I got with selegiline was very mixed and subjective. The last days I'm dosing just 1.25mg sublingual (normal Jumex pills) everyotherday. I started to use it on 4 september with different dosages. In the beggining I tried 2.5 mg oral. The effects were more objective, I felt a increased sense of wellbeing and relaxation, but got very sleepness in the morning and evening. Some users reports that sleepness is normal in the first 6 weeks.

In the last 3 weeks I changed my dose to 1.25 sublingual eod and many effects decreased. I think the effects are very dose/mode of administration dependent. The problem is that Im worried to mess with my MAO system because Im still young, 25 years old. But the researched effects of selegiline are very seductive, like improved life spam, reduced oxidative stress, more wellbeing, libido, motivation...

About motivation on selegiline some days I got very motivated, and some days not. Again this is related to sublingual/oral administration. Maybe sublingual pills are not ideal. I think oral doses are the right method of administration because the metabolities may have a role on the pharmacology of this medicine.

I will try a more scientific approuch on selegiline. Today I will ingest 500 mg L-phenylalanine with 2.5 mg selegiline with food. (I know phenylalanine will confuse the real effects of selegiline, but I want to see if I get more motivation with this combo.) (I dont want L-phenylalaline with empty stomach because 500 mg is too much!). I will try for 1 week. After this I make a report.

ps: smell and colors are really more increased while on selegiline.

Thanks for sharing the experience. Let us know how co-supplementation with L-Phenylalanine goes. I imagine it might give a sustained stimulating effect.

Yes I do believe Selegiline has effects that are dose-dependent. This I believe has to do with the increase in dopaminergic neuronal firing from stimulation of its primary metabolite, l-methamphetamine. This is not the primary effect, but one of the mechanisms that attribute to the overall effect.

[bugasman]

Hey guys I'm very worried about using this drug because I have fear to mess with my natural brain chemistry. Not only the brain, but the whole organism, because MAOs control many aspects of physiology. The dose that I use is low, only 2.5mg orally daily. Is it safe? Let's suppose I have I car accident or another fatality, is it dangerous to mix anesthetics or other emergency drugs with low dose selegiline?

[thedevinroy]

Hey guys I'm very worried about using this drug because I have fear to mess with my natural brain chemistry. Not only the brain, but the whole organism, because MAOs control many aspects of physiology. The dose that I use is low, only 2.5mg orally daily. Is it safe? Let's suppose I have I car accident or another fatality, is it dangerous to mix anesthetics or other emergency drugs with low dose selegiline?

Interactions: http://en.wikipedia....or#Interactions

Analgesics are not mentioned; however, that doesn't mean you shouldn't let your physician know about your venture into Selegiline. If it is something he or she does not know about, something could go terribly wrong. For instance, high dose Tylenol acts as an SNRI. Tell your doctor.

The body is an amazing machine. Even with huge variations in number genes from people to people in metabolism and transport, the neurology of the brain and CNS seems to adapt quite well. Selegiline will cause your body to reach a new homeostasis, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, it could be a good thing.