22 replies to this topic

[ZRTMWA]

Does anyone have a list of terminal (suicidal) antioxidants. These are antioxidants that cannot end up oxidating cells. I thought melatonin was the only one but I recently found out Astaxanthin was too. It is my opinion that these are one of the big keys to longevity. Non-terminal antioxidants are the reason why it is bad too take to many antioxidants. They end up doing the exact opposite of what they are promoted for.

Also, does anyone know which antioxidants can cross the blood brain barrier and which cant? I also read that melatonin and astaxanthin can cross the BBB, and was wondering if there was any connection.

Thanks.

Edited by ZRTMWA, 03 November 2011 - 01:57 AM.

[ZRTMWA]

Updated Lists (Just For BBB this time around)

Terminal Antioxidants:
-Melatonin
-Astaxanthin

Antioxidants that cross the BBB:
-Melatonin
-Astaxanthin
-Coenzyme Q10
-Tocotrienols (A rarer form of Vitamin E)
-Ginkgo Biloba
-Selenium
-Alpha Lipoic Acid
-Oligomeric Proanthocyanidins (OPC's, found in Grape Seed Extract)

[1kgcoffee]

Curcumin has antioxidant activity and crosses the BBB. Not sure if it's terminal though. Astaxanthin is also my personal favourite.

[ZRTMWA]

OK, I don't think I can go back and edit my posts so I'll make a new updated list further down, when we get a lot more. I also found out that a certain form of Vitamin C can cross the BBB. It's called dehydroascorbic acid.

I'm really more interested in the terminal antioxidants though.

And I could only find one source that said astaxanthin was a terminal antioxidant so melatonin might actually be the only one.

Edited by ZRTMWA, 04 November 2011 - 03:59 AM.

[AdamI]

How much astaxanthin is it recommended to take? My pills contain 4 mg each...

[ViolettVol]

Shouldn't we make a liest of max allowed natioxidants before they become oxidnts? From what I heard RDA recommendations are too low s shouldnt we make our own?

[mattblack UK]

the catechins from green tea cross the BBB.... I think...

[ta5]

Spin traps:
PBN
NtBHA

[JBForrester]

Are the anti-oxidants in green tea terminal or non-terminal? I drink 4 cups of green tea per day, which have been wonderful, but I would like to cut it down if it is oxidizing my cells and doing more harm than good.

[niner]

Are the anti-oxidants in green tea terminal or non-terminal? I drink 4 cups of green tea per day, which have been wonderful, but I would like to cut it down if it is oxidizing my cells and doing more harm than good.

The epidemiology in humans says that it's doing you more good than harm. Green tea and its constituents aren't particularly potent antioxidants. I think their actions are due to something other than being an antioxidant, which is usually the case for natural products touted as "antioxidants".

[Logic]

Are the anti-oxidants in green tea terminal or non-terminal? I drink 4 cups of green tea per day, which have been wonderful, but I would like to cut it down if it is oxidizing my cells and doing more harm than good.

The epidemiology in humans says that it's doing you more good than harm. Green tea and its constituents aren't particularly potent antioxidants. I think their actions are due to something other than being an antioxidant, which is usually the case for natural products touted as "antioxidants".

I believe that the main benificial effects of ECGC may be due to its activation of FoxO genes.
http://www.google.co...3&bih=442&ion=1

[anagram]

indole 3 propionic acid lacks any proxidant behavior, protects against ischemia, and is a potent mitochondrial uncoupler. it also extends life span, and is a natural endogenous product of tryptophan supplementation. apparently it is being developed as a drug called oxigen or something, but when I searched its name on google, I was suprised to find that no one sells it as a supplement.

indole 3 carbonile is also an okay antioxidant, but is sort of bad for your mitochondria.

citric acid is also a very very good antioxidant for your body, it increases the efficiency of your mitochondria, and makes caloric restriction 5x stronger. it is basically the energy source from which everything is derived from in your body, and its extremely cheap.

[Kevnzworld]

indole 3 propionic acid lacks any proxidant behavior, protects against ischemia, and is a potent mitochondrial uncoupler. it also extends life span, and is a natural endogenous product of tryptophan supplementation. apparently it is being developed as a drug called oxigen or something, but when I searched its name on google, I was suprised to find that no one sells it as a supplement.

indole 3 carbonile is also an okay antioxidant, but is sort of bad for your mitochondria.

citric acid is also a very very good antioxidant for your body, it increases the efficiency of your mitochondria, and makes caloric restriction 5x stronger. it is basically the energy source from
which everything is derived from in your body, and its extremely cheap.

Could you please post evidence and studies to support your assertions. It would allow us to evaluate the validity of your claims. I have never read that I3C is " bad for your mitochondria "
I take I3C for its protective effects against estrogen. I take testosterone, and have semi elevated estradiol levels due to aromatization.
http://jn.nutrition....3/7/2470S.short
http://www.landesbio...c/article/1993/

[anagram]

i mean, IC3 isn't bad for your mitohcondria, its just that part of its protective mechanism for DNA is that it stimulates DNA repair by causing DNA damage. this is the reason why chemoprotective chemicals do not protect cells when supplemented in tandam with a carcinogen.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17272308

above is an example of indole 3 carbinol causing cancer when given in tandem with alfatoxin.

[anagram]

here is an article that explains how chemoprotective substances work
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9255588
basically they stimulate DNA repair and protection.

back on terminal antioxidants, here are several articles backing up my statements on indole 3 propionic acid
-its devoid of proxidant activity
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12212784
-its better than melatonin
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10419516
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19235887
-this article is about an analogue of I3PA, shown to extend life span
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20421998

its completely insane how expensive I3PA is, all it is is deaminated tryptophan.

Edited by anagram, 06 December 2012 - 12:41 AM.

[niner]

i mean, IC3 isn't bad for your mitohcondria, its just that part of its protective mechanism for DNA is that it stimulates DNA repair by causing DNA damage. this is the reason why chemoprotective chemicals do not protect cells when supplemented in tandam with a carcinogen.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17272308

above is an example of indole 3 carbinol causing cancer when given in tandem with alfatoxin.

AFLAtoxin (not alfa) is one of the most potent carcinogens known. I3C doesn't cause cancer, the aflatoxin does. DIM (an I3C derivative), when given in sufficiently high dose (400mg/kg diet) acts as a tumor promoter through what appears to be an estrogenic mechanism. The authors say in the abstract:

Overall, these findings are the first to demonstrate tumor promotion by DIM. They confirm the importance of estrogenic signaling in the mechanism of promotion by dietary indoles in trout liver and indicate a possible dual effect that enhances tumor incidence and decreases potential for metastasis.

The decreased potential for metastasis is a good thing.

[anagram]

Ok, I know AFLAtoxin is bad for you. What I was saying is that IC3 carbinol protects against cancer, by inducing DNA repair as well as INDUCING enzymes that break down some carcinogens. I'm saying that this repair is stimulated by, apparently, some sort of toxic effect to DNA that induces DNA phase two detoxification.

IC3 apparently is also viewed as a cancer promoter.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11431103
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9566721

I cannot find the article but when scientists gave a tumor promotor to rats fed IC3, concurrently, it enhanced the tumor's growth. in the rats that were given the promotor 6 hours after they had been given IC3, those rats did not develop tumors, and the protective effect of the IC3 lasted 24 hours after IC3 treatment.

another example of this effect is berberine which intercalates DNA but its a hell of a cancer killer.

And when IC3 is consumed, it is rapidly converted to DIM, and then its converted into these cool looking structures which are probably excellent antioxidants.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....4317/figure/F1/

I wonder if some indole compounds are actually pro drugs to larger structures like this one.

Edited by anagram, 06 December 2012 - 01:56 AM.

[Kevnzworld]

anagram wrote:
IC3 apparently is also viewed as a cancer promoter.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11431103
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9566721

Neither of theses studies concluded that I3C is a " cancer promoter "
This study included the following :
Quote : "Concerns have been raised that I3C might increase the formation of estrogen metabolites that induce or promote cancer, but this has not been demonstrated"
http://iv.iiarjourna.../20/2/221.short

It seems that I3C inhibits estrogen induced cancers, not all cancers. This is important for men whose estrogen levels increase through aromatization of testosterone as they age.
Quote " In conclusion, the results from our laboratory and from others provide ample evidence for the benefit of I3C and DIM for the prevention and the treatment of prostate cancer. "
http://jn.nutrition..../12/3493S.short

[anagram]

wait whats going on, is somthing wrong? im so confused. wait wait wait, you must not have read the articles I posted.

IC3 apparently is also viewed as a cancer promoter.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11431103
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9566721

this is the title of the second article I posted

Indole-3-carbinol: anticarcinogen or tumor promoter in brassica vegetables?

here is a quote from that article in case you didn't see that part of it.

"Whereas most studies report inhibitory or protective effects of I3C in vivo, a few provide clear evidence for promotion or enhancement of carcinogenesis, depending upon the initiator, exposure protocol and species"

the plot thickens...


here is a different article:

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/3106695

here is this articles title:

Enhancement of carcinogenesis by the natural anticarcinogen indole-3-carbinol.

here is a quote from this article:

"post-initiation I3C exposure strongly enhanced the tumor incidence above the positive AFB1 control"

the plot thickens even more...

so based on this evidence, I believe that this supports my claim that IC3 induces DNA protection by doing whatever carcinogens do to DNA, except IC3 does this relatively safely and only causes cancer at high doses.

Edited by anagram, 06 December 2012 - 08:56 PM.

[Kevnzworld]

Anagram,
I'm not arguing with you that there is a question that in some incidences after exposure to a carcinogen , that high doses of 13c MAY promote tumor development. I think that is an entirely different thing to label I3C as a cancer promoter. That was my point.
The study I posted when looking at that question said that cancer promotion hasn't been clearly demonstrated.

Lets look at your first study you posted, it concluded : "These results represented that exposure to I3C after carcinogen treatment did not suppress development of mammary tumors."
That's far different than concluding that I3C promoted cancer.

The second study was a meta analysis of studies. It concluded:
In the absence of detailed information on the inhibitory and in particular, promotional mechanisms, it would seem advisable to proceed with caution before including I3C in extensive human clinical trials.

The third study, was conducted on trout. It showed a protective effect for I3c pre initiation of the carcinogen , promotion after initiation of the carcinogen.
There are hundreds of other studies showing I3C as a cancer inhibitor, to put these studies in context.

There are many vitamins/ polyphenols and hormones that are both chemo protective at some doses, and potentially promotional at high doses. ( folic acid, thiamine, estrogen for instance ). In I3C's case it has been only shown in a few studies to potentially
be promotional only at high doses AFTER exposure to a carcinogenic toxin.
This is a far cry from your statement which I took issue with proclaiming that i3c " is viewed as a cancer promoter "

[Kevnzworld]

Not to belabor the I3C issue, but I found these studies and I think theyre important. Unlike most studies on I3C which are epidemiological , cell culture, invitro, meta analysis or on rodents, these are on humans. They also looked at doses of I3C as a supplement versus as vegetable intake. The women in the first study were classified as being " at high risk for breast cancer "
The conclusion was :
"The results in this study suggest that I3C at a minimum effective dose schedule of 300 mg per day is a promising chemopreventive agent for breast cancer prevention."
http://www.cenegenic..._prevention.pdf

The second study was conducted on women with CIN ( precancerous cervical lesions ) , I3C was investigated as a treatment with an existing condition. It also used I3C in supplement form
Conclusions. There was a statistically significant regression of CIN in patients treated with I-3-C orally compared with placebo. The 2/16α-hydroxyestrone ratio changed in a dose-dependent fashion.
http://www.sciencedi...090825800958475

Edited by Kevnzworld, 06 December 2012 - 11:58 PM.

[anagram]

do you take melatonin as well? I already have a bottle of mealez and I don't know If I should take IC3 or DIM because I reckon I need some DNA protection and apparently DIM has some different properties than IC3.

I really want to know more about the tetra structure that is formed by IC3. I have this theory that c60 is produced naturally, and that the starting molecules are tetragrouped indole compounds. if you take several indole compounds and put them together you can make a coronene molecule(precursor to c60 maybe?), with some functional groups on the end for bonding with other coronene molecules.
I know it sounds far fetched, but the fact that tetra indole compounds even form in vivo is astonishing, and brings up the question, what is the role of this compound.
If endogenous c60 is possible, then it might explain melatonin's 20% life extension, while most other non indolic antioxidants fail to extend life span. if c60 is formed from indole compounds, its probably a very rare occurrence.
I know 2 indole compounds that extend life span, melatonin, and indole 3 propionic acid,
the amazing thing is that neither one converts into the other so something else is going on.
amazing.

[anagram]

I did a bit of research and apparently a sugar alcohol called Erythritol is an antioxidant.
if a superoxide radical or hydroxy radical bonds to Erythritol, then eventually, it becomes harmless CO2.
an added bonus is its quick absorption, lack of effect on insulin or kidney function.


http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19632091

this article means that Erythritol is an antioxidant that may be good for working against the hydrogen peroxide damage.
Erythritol is a simple sugar, it is basically another form of energy except your body cannot metabolize it so what I brilliantly came up with was that It might be good to take If you use c60, because not only does Erythritol have potential to be used as an antioxidant against c60's toxic effect on kidney cells, when it is oxidized, it becomes a huge source of energy.




Erythritol tetra nitrate is basically Erythritol with the oxidating function attached to the molecule, and its detonating velocity is 8000m/s and although that may not mean much to you, it means that Erythritol is very capable of being an energy source. most other explosives don't even touch 8000m/s so that shows ETN's quick and efficient production of energy, which is after all what we all need.

http://en.wikipedia....tion_velocities
http://en.wikipedia....ol_tetranitrate


I have tried Erythritol and can give claim to its use. Taking it around bed time completely stops all tiredness I have, and I don't crash while on it.
I use c60 with Erythritol which probably is why I derived an effect from Erythritol.
theoretically, what happened was that c60 efficiently turned the Erythritol into acetyl groups that my body needed.
I find that If I do CR after taking Erythritol, I don't become hungry at all.
the only side effect from Erythritol was light muscle pain which may have been from a build up of acetate in my body.

Edited by anagram, 08 December 2012 - 01:46 AM.