14 replies to this topic

[Lojiko]

I've heard that the key to a good sleep regimen is maintaining a consistent waketime - bedtime can vary, but waketime must be consistent. Unfortunately, I have trouble getting to sleep at night and trouble waking up in the morning - once I get to sleep, I can sleep for a considerably long time. I think that if I were able to drag my ass out of bed at 5AM like I would like to do, I wouldn't have as much trouble falling asleep at night. The problem is that I feel like a zombie when I wake up and need some kind of stimulant to get me going.

I have ADHD-inattentive, so my 'script for Vyvanse would help wake me up, if that's all I used it for, but I like to be wide awake before I take it so I can maximize my academic effectiveness. FYI, I have trouble falling asleep whether I'm taking Vyvanse or not, whether I take a stimulant during the day or not, for years I consumed absolutely no stimulants due to anxiety issues, so I assure you, it's not the stimulants that are making it difficult for me to fall asleep.

I typically take 7.5mg of mirtazapine to help me get to sleep, bacopa's been a nice addition, I now take lion's root at night too, and if all else fails I have 10mg doses of zaleplon at my disposal.

So, what would you suggest to help wake me up? I don't take Vyvanse all the time, so think of options that are Vyvanse-friendly as well as ones that aren't. I would prefer something that I can keep by my bed, take when my alarm goes off, that will naturally wake me up 30-60 minutes after I take it, something that will make me want to get up and seize the day! Be more creative than "take a Vivarin" - I want something ergogenic, something that's good for both body and mind.

Thanks in advance!

Edited by Lojiko, 25 November 2011 - 07:37 PM.

[Verne]

I've had the same problem for years. I tried using stimulants, but even they weren't enough. I'd just lay in bed with an elevated heart-rate, and actually doze off a few minutes later. I took 20mg of Dextroamphetamine in the morning, but it wasn't enough. And that's not even something I take often or have tolerance for. If you're unable to get up in the morning because of severe depression caused by your ADD, I have a feeling it's beyond the help of "wake-up" drugs (ie. Stimulants and nootropics like Noopept).

I have yet to try noopept, but I'm going to recommend it for you. I plan to try it myself as soon as I can afford it. No guarantees it will work though, and it's not cheap.

[Lufega]

Creatine was shown to be helpful.

Not enough sleep? Creatine keeps you alert

There also something on PDE4 inhibitors restoring lost hours of sleep or something. Search the board for that one.

[hamishm00]

Ribose with coffee in the morning always does the trick for me.

[Lojiko]

I"m considering trying Rhodiola (again). I've had a strange rxn to it, but that was years ago. Seems every time I take it, I freak out for 12 hours, like I drank a gallon of coffee or something. I've been habituating myself to caffeine over the years (I used to be very sensitive to caffeine ... now I can almost drink as much as I want). I also used to be very sensitive to stimulants, but I'm worked my way up to 60mg of Vyvanse and can currently take it without much ill affect.

I tried sulbutiamine, but damn that taste. It's not very effective for me and I've heard it works best with a fatty meal anyway (which kind of defeats the purpose if I actually have to get up and make a small snack to take it with).

Thus far the winning combo is 800mg Pyritinol + 2400mg Piracetam + 500mg L-dopa (I'm new to nootropics, so I haven't tried anything alongside Vyvanse, especially not acetyl-tyrosine or L-dopa). Aniracetam doesn't elicit much stimulation for me. L-dopa is nice, but unpredictable. This morning I made it out just fine with just a can of Diet Dr Pepper + ~2.5g creatine alpha-ketoglutarate + 5g L-glutamine (today was a gym day ... only two days on Creatine-AKG and it seems promising for strength training and muscle mass).

The flip-side of this equation is getting to sleep. Hypothetically, if I could get to sleep earlier/easier, I could wake up when I want to. I have some ashwgandha in the mail, which I've heard has a relaxing effect (of course, I heard the same about Rhodiola! ).

[Lojiko]

hamish, I forgot to mention that I take 850mg ribose on occasion. I've heard it's good for strength training recovery and alertness. It's OK for both, it certainly has more impact than I would otherwise imagine a "sugar" to have, but it's not about to get me out of bed. I take it as often as I take creatine, which is about four days per week (strength training days) - I take my creatine both before and after strength training.

Verne, back to your point about depression ... I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm depressed, but from a psychological perspective, it's a lot easier to get up in the morning when we have something we really want to get up for, am I right? I used to be a soldier, so perhaps all those early waking days have given me an unhealthy fondness for sleeping in.

[pycnogenol]

Low-strength DHEA (15 mg) along with dark French roast coffee in the morning always does the trick for me.

[Lojiko]

I'll keep that in mind, Pyc (pycnogenol happens to be one of the supps in my stack ... I cycle it one month on, one month replaced with grape seed extract). I currently have some DMAE on the way. I'll do some more research on DHEA and perhaps add it to my next supplement order.

I'm currently experimenting with rhodiola again tonight. I took 80mg, right before bed (I'm obviously not in bed any more), but that's the only time I really have to allow myself to freak out. So far, so good. Tomorrow morning I'll take 250mg (root extract, 3% rosavins, 1% salidrosides, LifeExtension brand) and hope my heart doesn't explode by the time I get to the gym. Keep in mind, my previous experiences with rhodiola have been unusually intense and agitated. The fact that I dropped 80mg 1.3 hours ago, and don't seem to be exhibiting any ill effects, is very promising, imo. I may have outgrown my sensitivity to stimulants.

[hamishm00]

If Ribose won't wake you up then perhaps consider Modafinil in the morning. That will wake you up.

3-5mg of Glycine at night, perhaps with melatonin as well, to improve sleep quality.

[Lojiko]

Modafinil is Schedule IV in the USA, meaning I can't take it without a prescription. I've tried adrafinil, but I get a pins-and-needles sensation. I've yet to look for any reviews of armodafinil, also Schedule IV tho.

Lately I've been taking 300mg N-acetyl-L-tyrosine on an empty stomach and 450mg Ashwagandha (root, 1.0% alkaloids; 1.5% withanolides), about half an hour before I get up. About 30 minutes later, I'm ready to get up and seize the day.

I'll update as my experiment progresses. Ideally I'm looking for something I can take that will pop me out of bed once it kicks in.

[Valor5]

get a dog

[Lojiko]

valory5 ... I plan on doing that, as soon as I live somewhere that allows pets. In the meantime, gimme something to help wake me up (and don't say a baby!).

hamish ... I've added Glycine to my watchlist, specifically AjiPure Glycine, but it's going to be another month or so before I give it a try - I have a ton more supplements to try before I need to place another order. In the meantime, I recently tried Trimethylglycine (500mg), which I thought was supposed to act as a stimulant (it has a mixed response profile), but a couple hours later I fell asleep and got some of the best sleep I've had in ages. I tried some more an hour ago. We'll see where it takes me.

[syncleft]

ADHD inattentive here as well. I've tried so many things. If you want to wake up, consider taking SAM-e (not concomitantly with Vyvanse... possibility of serotonin toxicity). Next on the list is using digestive enzymes with your meals and incorporating extra virgin coconut oil in your diet. Along with that, try some methylene blue - small doses, 60-120mcg. I quit taking Adderall and I can actually do things in life with that regimen. I also take quality fish oil. Taking these things may help you wake up better with a bit of time. Lithium Orotate in my opinion helps as well, YMMV. I keep a dose of methylene blue next to my bed - wake up and take my 400mg SAM-e pill with that, and within 30-60 minutes I feel awake.

I have enough supplements that some of my friends call me a pharmacy. I've battled tiredness for so, so long. Those are the things asides amphetamine that have helped me 'wake up'. I've come to this conclusion after years of searching. I suggest you try a couple of the things I suggested. If not SAM-e or methylene blue, incorporate coconut oil into your diet - you will notice a difference after awhile. Read Coconut Cures by Bruce Fife, as well as The Coconut Oil Miracle by the same author. You will come to understand how something like coldpressed extra virgin coconut oil can help battle fatigue. I feel like an advertisement, I've mentioned his books twice and I barely have any posts, but I've been registered on these forums for quite some time as a lurker - never even had the energy to post. Definitely not spamming, I truly want more people to learn about coconut oil.

Edited by syncleft, 06 January 2012 - 10:34 AM.

[Lojiko]

Thanks for the tips, syncleft.

My supplement regimen is currently in a drawing-down phase (I've been called a pharmacy as well ), but I added some lithium orotate on my last order and took 5mg (elemental-Li) for the very first time about an hour ago. I'm assuming you're suggesting I try the Lithium to help wake up? That's odd given most of the people on here suggest it calms them down. Having only taken it once in my life, an hour ago, it seems too early to make any judgments, but I've been very tired today (I've had about 5 hours sleep in the last 50 hours or so ... semi-long story, not my usual) and I do feel oddly more awake right now.

I'll give the lithium a shot for a week or so before I make any judgments and add some SAM-e to my next supplement order. I'll do some more reading about coconut oil in the meantime.

[Lojiko]

This thread deserves an update in light of recent events.

Around NYE 2011, I stopped taking my stimulant meds, consumed inordinate amounts of alcohol for days on end (wheeee ... the holidays!), and somehow my sleep cycle got flipped - I was waking up at 6PM and going to bed at 6AM. I stayed up long enough to get them flipped back and now I'm waking up at 5AM (without the aid of an alarm clock) and getting sleepy enough to go to bed around 9PM ... it's perfect! It's been going on like this for about a week now. I'm exercising daily, gets tons of stuff done, and feeling great.

My question is ... how did this happen!? I've never been an earlier riser, it's always been difficult for me to go to sleep, and suddenly I'm living the perfect (for me) sleep regimen! Below are some things that I'm doing differently. See if you can help me figure this out, because I'd like to make sure I stay with it.

1. I found a great sleep hygiene article on Lifehacker and have implemented many of the tips. I've tried all sorts of sleep hygiene stuff (like only using the bedroom for sleep and sex) and it's never worked before, so I doubt it's just from following the advice in the article.

2. I dim my lights and computer screen at sunset.

3. I take 1mg of melatonin about 6PM (i.e., about 3 hours prior to when I'd like to go to bed)

4. I go to bed almost immediately after meditation. I use Holosync to meditate for 30-60 minutes. I meditate in the dark. I've pretty much always done this, so I'm not sure this is a factor by itself.

5. I set my heated mattress pad when I start my meditation, so my bed is nice and warm (but not too warm!) by the time I'm done meditating.

6. I wake up from 6-10 hours later (closer to 6 when I don't take mirtazapine prior to going to bed, closer to 10 when I do), drink a refreshing caffeinated beverage, have a 5mg L-glutamine/5mg Creatine AKG/300ml fruit juice (OceanSpray CranRaspberry) pre-workout cocktail, hit the gym or go for a run, come back home and consume copious amounts of caffeine, maybe take some atomoxetine if I need extra focus, and get shit done.

7. I also don't have any caffeine after 2PM, even tho my 23andMe genotype says I'm a fast caffeine metabolizer.

So, those are the basics. Thus far it seems to be working. I'll update as necessary. I still plan on trying Glycine when I make my next supplement order.