34 replies to this topic

[Danail Bulgaria]

Does anyone knows of what is being done about the topic of destruction of atherosclerotic plaques. I know about dietary regimens, suggested from doctors (profilaxy) and medications, that lower the blood cholesterol (profilaxy), but what about the treatment? is there a medication, that removes the cholesterol plaques, once after they are created?

[Werner]

This is a big story for big pharma: statins! A multi-billion$ business.
All these drugs have side effects but they are better than doing nothing.

A healthier way is nutrition. Avoiding or reducing meat, cheese, milk,
eggs (fish is healthy nutrition) and eating fruits/veggies instead is
the natural way to get rid of plaques.

Read about arachidonic acid, the precursor of metabolites that
create atherosclerosis and plaques. You find it especially in meat,
cheese and eggs.

[Bonee]

the md at the former heartscan.blogspot.com now http://www.trackyourplaque.com/blog/ claim that if you follow his dietary advices ~no grains increased vitamin D and iodine and fish oil
you can reduce the size of your plaques

[niner]

A healthier way is nutrition. Avoiding or reducing meat, cheese, milk,
eggs (fish is healthy nutrition) and eating fruits/veggies instead is
the natural way to get rid of plaques.

That's a good way to kill yourself if you're ApoE 2. For the 25% of the population that's ApoE 4, this would be a good approach, though I doubt it will do much to get rid of plaque. For everyone else, they'd be better off with a higher fat lower carb protocol. The OP should check out Dr. Davis at trackyourplaque, as Bonee suggests.

[mpe]

Of course you could always try the Pauling Protocol as described in " Practicing Medicine without a licence"

http://practicingmed...xcerpt_chp7.pdf

[maxwatt]

Pomegranate juice is said to reduce atherosclerotic plaque, as is supplementation with vitamin K2 as MK7.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....osis vitamin K2

While the evidence that K2 intake can reduce plaque is pretty clear, the evidence that it can reverse the condition is less well supported, but is possible.

[MrHappy]

Bacopa.
https://rirdc.infose...ownloads/06-128 (PDF)

There's also this:
http://www.sumobrain...2004062566.html

Resveratrol..

[pamojja]

A healthier way is nutrition. Avoiding or reducing meat, cheese, milk,
eggs (fish is healthy nutrition) and eating fruits/veggies instead is
the natural way to get rid of plaques.

Have to keep myself in check if I read such believes: was vegetarian for 30 years since 10 years of age, and ended up with a 70-80% stenosis at my abdominal aorta (PAD). So started to eat eggs and fish again and I'm improving.

This is a big story for big pharma: statins! A multi-billion$ business.
All these drugs have side effects but they are better than doing nothing.

Well, only one 1 of 30 statin takers actually don't die from this condition prematurely. Guess just about any placebo would work better.

..that if you follow his dietary advices ~no grains increased vitamin D and iodine and fish oil
you can reduce the size of your plaques

More precise: if one does nothing, like taking statins only without dietary and lifestyle changes, a 30% increase in calcified plaque per year can be expected. This exponential growth usually at older age is the real problem. But if one is able to slow this yearly growth rate at least below 15% for all practical purposes that's the best one can hope for and deathly incidents thereby allegedly are much less likely.

[Mind]

Since Davis's name was brought up earlier: Dr. Davis has had much success IN HIS CLINICAL PRACTICE (just wanted to highlight that fact), with managing heart problems/plaque. I interviewed him a couple of years back and he recently released a new book called Wheat Belly. Dropping carbs is not a 100% cure-all, but wow, does it improve a lot of health metrics associated with chronic disease (diabetes, heart problems, etc...)

What I find strange is that Dr. Davis has had so much success yet, it has taken so long for his message to get out into the medical community. Old habits (ie., eat crap and take drugs to cover up your symptoms) die hard I guess.

Edited by Mind, 06 December 2011 - 11:01 AM.

[Werner]

A healthier way is nutrition. Avoiding or reducing meat, cheese, milk,
eggs (fish is healthy nutrition) and eating fruits/veggies instead is
the natural way to get rid of plaques.

That's a good way to kill yourself if you're ApoE 2. For the 25% of the population that's ApoE 4, this would be a good approach, though I doubt it will do much to get rid of plaque. For everyone else, they'd be better off with a higher fat lower carb protocol. The OP should check out Dr. Davis at trackyourplaque, as Bonee suggests.

E2 is a genetic disorder of hyperlipoproteinemia. If those people would eat
fruits and veggies and avoid meat, cheese and milk it would be good for them.
How could it be good to add more fat to a metabolism already filled up with
too much fat?
I don't know if you know the discussion on the arachidonic acid metabolism.
Today, there is no doubt that it is the only way to get rid of plaque without
medication.
Sorry, it is always the wrong concept to say: lower carbs, higher fat, lower fat,
higher carbs. Because carb is not carb and fat is not fat. It always depends on
the type of carb/fat.

[Werner]

Have to keep myself in check if I read such believes: was vegetarian for 30 years since 10 years of age, and ended up with a 70-80% stenosis at my abdominal aorta (PAD). So started to eat eggs and fish again and I'm improving.

You're improving because of your medication.
Vegetarian life in most cases is not really healthy. Because vegetarians eat lots
of grains, bread and nuts that all have the lectine and phytate problem.
Fish is healthy nutrition, look at Japan. Eggs are bad due to their arachidonic
acid content.

[niner]

A healthier way is nutrition. Avoiding or reducing meat, cheese, milk,
eggs (fish is healthy nutrition) and eating fruits/veggies instead is
the natural way to get rid of plaques.

That's a good way to kill yourself if you're ApoE 2. For the 25% of the population that's ApoE 4, this would be a good approach, though I doubt it will do much to get rid of plaque. For everyone else, they'd be better off with a higher fat lower carb protocol. The OP should check out Dr. Davis at trackyourplaque, as Bonee suggests.

E2 is a genetic disorder of hyperlipoproteinemia. If those people would eat
fruits and veggies and avoid meat, cheese and milk it would be good for them.
How could it be good to add more fat to a metabolism already filled up with
too much fat?

See this post and references therein. In particular, a low fat diet will raise small dense LDL in the E2 population. I think you're talking about type III hyperlipoproteinemia, which only affects 5% of E2 homozygotes. Overall, E2 is more fat tolerant, has lower LDL levels, and better longevity.

I don't know if you know the discussion on the arachidonic acid metabolism.
Today, there is no doubt that it is the only way to get rid of plaque without
medication.

I think of AA as an inflammatory mediator for which "heart healthy" omega 6 PUFAs are precursors. Could you explain what you mean by it?

Sorry, it is always the wrong concept to say: lower carbs, higher fat, lower fat,
higher carbs. Because carb is not carb and fat is not fat. It always depends on
the type of carb/fat.

You might want to browse the nutrition forum here, because we talk about this a lot. I was a bit sloppy in my language there, since I was assuming that the "good" part was understood.

[Danail Bulgaria]

Are there clinical researches, that show complete removal of athrosclerotic plaques?

[Werner]

@niner:
"See this post and references therein. In particular, a low fat diet will raise small dense LDL in the E2 population. I think you're talking about type III hyperlipoproteinemia, which only affects 5% of E2 homozygotes. Overall, E2 is more fat tolerant, has lower LDL levels, and better longevity."
I think the concept low fat - medium fat as shown in this table is flawed. At first they show
fish oil which is good. But its omega-3-oil in the fish which is good. n-3-fat is always good
and SFA in general is bad. So, if you increase n-3-oil you've an advantage, BUT if you also
increase the SFA content you've a disadvantage. Together, more fat means no change.
If you put good and bad together you can reduce or augment both and there is no change.

[pamojja]

Have to keep myself in check if I read such believes: was vegetarian for 30 years since 10 years of age, and ended up with a 70-80% stenosis at my abdominal aorta (PAD). So started to eat eggs and fish again and I'm improving.

You're improving because of your medication.
Vegetarian life in most cases is not really healthy. Because vegetarians eat lots
of grains, bread and nuts that all have the lectine and phytate problem.
Fish is healthy nutrition, look at Japan. Eggs are bad due to their arachidonic
acid content.

I don't take any medication!

Was prescribed aspirin and statins, but take a close look at that: only about 1 out of 30-50 who take these medication would not succumb to earlier mortality. And these medications wouldn't have brought any improvement with my intermittent claudication anyway. From a short walking distance of only 3-400 meters (2 years ago) - before I would have to take a rest due to pain - to upto 2 hours walks now, where only slight symptoms start to show. For me it's a very existential question of being able to walk - or not!

However, beside lifestyle changes I do take a whole lot of supplements but without the approval of my docs, who want to make me believe I would poison myself thereby.

And since I added eggs and a lot of nuts to my diet my cholesterol dropped (in facts, nuts now makes up most of my daily calorie intake).

[Werner]

I don't know if you know the discussion on the arachidonic acid metabolism.
Today, there is no doubt that it is the only way to get rid of plaque without
medication.

I think of AA as an inflammatory mediator for which "heart healthy" omega 6 PUFAs are precursors. Could you explain what you mean by it?

You find AA in almost all animal foods. They enter the metabolism through
ingestion and there is no precursor. AA is responsible for hypertension,
CVD, inflammation through these eicosanoids deriving from AA:
PGE2 => inflammation
TXA2 => vasoconstriction.
LTB4 => strong inflammation.
To avoid it without medication there is no other way as to decrease meat
and dairy consumption. Fish is neutral due to n-3 which neutralizes these
bad eicosanoids. AA and n-3 have a competing metabolism.

[Werner]

Have to keep myself in check if I read such believes: was vegetarian for 30 years since 10 years of age, and ended up with a 70-80% stenosis at my abdominal aorta (PAD). So started to eat eggs and fish again and I'm improving.

You're improving because of your medication.
Vegetarian life in most cases is not really healthy. Because vegetarians eat lots
of grains, bread and nuts that all have the lectine and phytate problem.
Fish is healthy nutrition, look at Japan. Eggs are bad due to their arachidonic
acid content.

I don't take any medication!

Was prescribed aspirin and statins, but take a close look at that: only about 1 out of 30-50 who take these medication would not succumb to earlier mortality. And these medications wouldn't have brought any improvement with my intermittent claudication anyway. From a short walking distance of only 3-400 meters (2 years ago) - before I would have to take a rest due to pain - to upto 2 hours walks now, where only slight symptoms start to show. For me it's a very existential question of being able to walk - or not!

However, beside lifestyle changes I do take a whole lot of supplements but without the approval of my docs, who want to make me believe I would poison myself thereby.

And since I added eggs and a lot of nuts to my diet my cholesterol dropped (in facts, nuts now makes up most of my daily calorie intake).

A 70-80% stenosis and no medication? It seems strange to me.
The point is that a medication helps but cannot cure. The only
chance to cure it is by nutrition. Please correct me, but to get a
stenosis your diet normally must be a lot of meat and dairy products.
One thing is very clear: eggs contain arachidonic acid and this acid
produces all sorts of vascular diseases.
Of course, statins can have serious side effects.

[pamojja]

A 70-80% stenosis and no medication? It seems strange to me.
The point is that a medication helps but cannot cure. The only
chance to cure it is by nutrition. Please correct me, but to get a
stenosis your diet normally must be a lot of meat and dairy products.
One thing is very clear: eggs contain arachidonic acid and this acid
produces all sorts of vascular diseases.
Of course, statins can have serious side effects.

Again:
Medication wouldn't help with intermittent claudication at all - what's strange about if I refuse such 'medication'???

Only invasive surgery would in such a serious cases (with a 50% possibility of restenosis within a few years).

I can correct you a couple of more times if you want :
I've been without meat since 10 years of age - and adding eggs to my diet since my diagnosis did improve my intermittent claudication instead.

[Werner]

A 70-80% stenosis and no medication? It seems strange to me.
The point is that a medication helps but cannot cure. The only
chance to cure it is by nutrition. Please correct me, but to get a
stenosis your diet normally must be a lot of meat and dairy products.
One thing is very clear: eggs contain arachidonic acid and this acid
produces all sorts of vascular diseases.
Of course, statins can have serious side effects.

Again:
Medication wouldn't help with intermittent claudication at all - what's strange about if I refuse such 'medication'???

Only invasive surgery would in such a serious cases (with a 50% possibility of restenosis within a few years).

I can correct you a couple of more times if you want :
I've been without meat since 10 years of age - and adding eggs to my diet since my diagnosis did improve my intermittent claudication instead.

I am sorry, I didn't realize that you have Claudicatio intermittens. That is a totally different
thing. I thought that you have an acquired aorta stenosis.

[niner]

I don't know if you know the discussion on the arachidonic acid metabolism.
Today, there is no doubt that it is the only way to get rid of plaque without
medication.

I think of AA as an inflammatory mediator for which "heart healthy" omega 6 PUFAs are precursors. Could you explain what you mean by it?

You find AA in almost all animal foods. They enter the metabolism through
ingestion and there is no precursor. AA is responsible for hypertension,
CVD, inflammation through these eicosanoids deriving from AA:
PGE2 => inflammation
TXA2 => vasoconstriction.
LTB4 => strong inflammation.
To avoid it without medication there is no other way as to decrease meat
and dairy consumption. Fish is neutral due to n-3 which neutralizes these
bad eicosanoids. AA and n-3 have a competing metabolism.

You're making it sound like most or all AA comes pre-formed from diet. Actually, most of it is synthesized in the body from linoleic acid, the omega 6 fatty acid that is common to the cheap industrial seed oils.

I added the second level of quotes back in so this conversation would be legible. It would be better if you left them there.

[pamojja]

I am sorry, I didn't realize that you have Claudicatio intermittens. That is a totally different
thing. I thought that you have an acquired aorta stenosis.

Thanks for considering again ..I appreciate.

Though I don't see how PAD (peripheral aterial disease) would be that different at all. Because a stenosis at the abdominal aorta causing intermittent claudication in my case is one of the possible results of atherosclerosis, beside stroke or hearth disease.

[Werner]

I am sorry, I didn't realize that you have Claudicatio intermittens. That is a totally different
thing. I thought that you have an acquired aorta stenosis.

Thanks for considering again ..I appreciate.

Though I don't see how PAD (peripheral aterial disease) would be that different at all. Because a stenosis at the abdominal aorta causing intermittent claudication in my case is one of the possible results of atherosclerosis, beside stroke or hearth disease.

There is a difference between aneurysm and PAD. With aneurysm
you need a medication, even an operation. But, as I said, from a scientific
standpoint, it is clear that you can do something against PAD apart from
medication. And this is nutrition. A vegetarian nutrition is really NOT
good, because here you have the lectine and phytate problem.
What you can do is to take omega-3-FAs in sufficient quantity.
Not these pills but 4 spoons flaxseed oil/day which contain about
12 grams of omega-3s. And fish instead of meat. And a lot of fruits,
veggies, salads.

[Werner]

I don't know if you know the discussion on the arachidonic acid metabolism.
Today, there is no doubt that it is the only way to get rid of plaque without
medication.

I think of AA as an inflammatory mediator for which "heart healthy" omega 6 PUFAs are precursors. Could you explain what you mean by it?

You find AA in almost all animal foods. They enter the metabolism through
ingestion and there is no precursor. AA is responsible for hypertension,
CVD, inflammation through these eicosanoids deriving from AA:
PGE2 => inflammation
TXA2 => vasoconstriction.
LTB4 => strong inflammation.
To avoid it without medication there is no other way as to decrease meat
and dairy consumption. Fish is neutral due to n-3 which neutralizes these
bad eicosanoids. AA and n-3 have a competing metabolism.

You're making it sound like most or all AA comes pre-formed from diet. Actually, most of it is synthesized in the body from linoleic acid, the omega 6 fatty acid that is common to the cheap industrial seed oils.

I added the second level of quotes back in so this conversation would be legible. It would be better if you left them there.

Linoleic acid (n-6) which is desaturated to AA derives from nutrition.
It is most abundant in normal Western diets and creates all these
diseases such as CVD or hypertension because of its inflammatory
effect.
Same problem with (intestinal) cancer. An interesting article is
"Dietary (n-6) PUFA and Intestinal Tumorigenesis"
http://jn.nutrition....4/12/3421S.full

[Danail Bulgaria]

In scientific terms, if there is no data, that certain medication or diet removes the plaque, not only improves the condition, the treatment with it is in question.
For example, if statins lower the cholesterol level, this is good, but if there is no research data showing removal of the cholesterol plaque, then the removal of cholesterol plaque with statins is in question.
The same is true for the vegetarian diet, the meat diet, the eggs, etc.
So, does anyone knows of scientific research data, that shows REMOVAL of the plaques?

[Danail Bulgaria]

P.S. lowering cholesterol levels and removing the plaque are considered in my question as two different things.

[niner]

In scientific terms, if there is no data, that certain medication or diet removes the plaque, not only improves the condition, the treatment with it is in question.
For example, if statins lower the cholesterol level, this is good, but if there is no research data showing removal of the cholesterol plaque, then the removal of cholesterol plaque with statins is in question.
The same is true for the vegetarian diet, the meat diet, the eggs, etc.
So, does anyone knows of scientific research data, that shows REMOVAL of the plaques?

If you're looking for complete and total removal, that might be hard to find, though I think there are some spotty reports. The best place to look is probably Bill Davis' track your plaque site, linked in a post above.

[Danail Bulgaria]

If You mean Wheat Belly by William Davis, I searched the book, but no removal of the plaque is presented there. If there is no actual and sure way for removing the plaque at this moment, then it is a very serious hit against the ideas for longer life and for immortality.

[niner]

If You mean Wheat Belly by William Davis, I searched the book, but no removal of the plaque is presented there. If there is no actual and sure way for removing the plaque at this moment, then it is a very serious hit against the ideas for longer life and for immortality.

No, I mean his blog that's linked in the third post of this thread. He also has a site that requires membership for full access, but the blog is free. I don't know what's in Wheat Belly but I like the title.

[scottknl]

I was under the impression that Dr.Ornish had proved that his dietary approach reversed arteriosclerosis and I'm sure that there is some CR research that proves it too. I know that people who have done CR for a while have smaller IMT measurements than when they started (Check Luigi Fontana). I did it for myself with a CRON near-vegan diet. Massive reduction in "BAD" lipids and sizable increase in "GOOD" lipids. Although I have my lipid test data, I didn't have the my vessels checked for occlusion. It may be due to getting the fatty acid balance healthier Omega-6:Omega-3 ratio.

Edited by scottknl, 08 December 2011 - 05:36 AM.

[Danail Bulgaria]

scottknl, thank You for the answer. I followed the links, Luigi Fontana has proved, that "IMT (IMT is Ultrasonographic Measurement of Carotid Intima-Media Thickness) of the common carotid artery was ≈40% less in the CR than in the comparison group". This is very nice, however as far as I understood it, it is 40% less cpm[ared with the control group, not 40% less compared to the patients initial IMT.