68 replies to this topic

[thedevinroy]

When I say "stimless" I mean that I am not willing to take typical ADHD stimulant medications. My goal is to fully treat my Adult ADHD (predominantly inattentive) and attain a good working memory. I wish to only dose major supplements 2x/day.

Morning:

• Selegiline (capsule): 5mg
• DL-Phenylalanine (sublingual): 500mg
• Huperzia (1%): 20-30mg (200-300mcg Huperzine A)
• Pinebark Extract (90% OPC's): 100-150mg
• Ashwagandha (1.5%): 470mg
• Gotu Kola (dried, whole): 450mg
• Methylene Blue: 3mg
• Vitamin C: 500mg (to activate MB)
• Magnesium (Oxide): 250mg
• Zinc (Gluconate): 12.5mg
• Fish Oil: 1000mg
• [Protein Breakfast] + Coffee + Black Tea

Mid-Day:

• Selegiline (capsule): 5mg
• DL-Phenylalanine (sublingual): 500mg
• Huperzia (1%): 20-30mg (200-300mcg Huperzine A)
• Pinebark Extract (90% OPC's): 100-150mg
• Fish Oil: 1000mg
• [500 Calorie Lunch]

Somewhere between, I usually have Black Tea. Sometimes coffee, sometimes zinc, sometimes fish oil...

Evening:

• Ashwagandha (1.5%): 470mg
• Zinc (Gluconate): 12.5mg
• [Big Supper]

If I need energy, I'll grab some Green Tea.

Night:

• Gotu Kola (dried, whole): 900mg
• Magnesium (Oxide): 250mg

I get uppity right before lunch, all light headed. After lunch, I crash into a stooper for 3 hours. I come up around 5pm and am alive till 7pm when I crash again. I hate dosing 4x a day. 2x a day is enough. The only switch I'm proposing is moving Ashwagandha + Zinc to Mid-Day. Ashwagandha seems to stabilize me at a little higher mood than normal, which is good.

For those of you who are skeptical about Huperzine A, don't be. Combined with the Selegiline, I finally have self control. My memory is finally good. Not the best, but better than it has ever been. It's not for everyone, but it is for me.

Potential Additions:

• Triple Strength Lecithin: 400mg PS per cap (take 3 at a time, 2x/day)
• Olive Leaf Extract (18% Oleuropins): 500mg (2x/day)
• TMG + NAC: 500mg + 200mg (2x/day)
• Lithium Orotate: 100mg (at night?)
• Jiaogulan (95% Gypenosides): 50mg (2x/day)
• Astragulus Root (12:1) + Chitosan: 1000mg + 500mg (at night)
• Ginkgo (24/6/5 std): 120mg (3x/day)
• Curcumin (95%): 500mg (2x/day)
• Picamilon: 100mg (at night)
• PQQ: 5mg (4 weeks at a time, 1x/day)

Please speak up if you notice any potential synergies or benefits with these suggestions.

I've already asked for the Triple Strength Lecithin for Christmas... I find that one synergizes with Huperzine A more than anything in the world. Lithium is just... well a great nootropic at its nootropic dose. Olive leaf has COMT inhibitors... and I've noticed a lot of positive benefits from extra virgin olive oil, just curious if it is the oleuropin or just the oil giving the effects. TMG + NAC I heard was quite stimulating and motivating. Jiaogulan supposedly helps with energy levels and motivation. Astragulus + Chitosan (for absorption) helps lengthen telomeres (maybe my hair will stop thinning), probably will take with Ginkgo in addition to usual Gotu Kola. Curcumin inhibits the breakdown of Selegiline plus adds its own upper effect. Picamilon is great for getting to sleep, slows down your head for a half hour... but I probably won't need it during the Astragulus therapy. PQQ looks like one hell of a supplement... reviving mitochondria is just one method of staying young.

Exercise and diet aren't really manageable, so please hold back suggestions regarding that for now.

Regimen suggestions, comments, questions? Should I inquire my psychiatrist about any other medicines?

Edited by devinthayer, 06 December 2011 - 08:50 PM.

[thedevinroy]

Also, I forgot to mention, I was considering Desmopressin as well. Due to the price, I would only consider it if there was resounding reviews for it.

[medievil]

Get l methylfolate for its inhibition of comt and greatly improved prefrontal function, nac is a solid adjunct, perhaps consider wellbutrin.

[thedevinroy]

Get l methylfolate for its inhibition of comt and greatly improved prefrontal function, nac is a solid adjunct, perhaps consider wellbutrin.

Hmm... can't find any statements promoting direct inhibition, but I believe MTHF decreases the body's need for COMT... causing the gene to be turned off. That's just as good, even better.

Tried Wellbutrin. Stuff had no effect in combo with Modafinil. When it finally started corrected ADHD after I stopped Modafinil, I became bitter and forgetful. Not for me.

[HighOrder]

Isn't Curcumin a MAOI-A inhibitor as well ? I've seen reports of a hypertensive crisis, bluelight or mind&muscle.

[hippocampus]

magnesium oxide is the worst form of magnesium, next time buy something better like magnesium citrate, orotate and so on (look on forum).

and i know you said that you can't manage diet right now, but of course you can make at least small changes except if you're already on some special diet for other reasons ...

[thedevinroy]

magnesium oxide is the worst form of magnesium, next time buy something better like magnesium citrate, orotate and so on (look on forum).

and i know you said that you can't manage diet right now, but of course you can make at least small changes except if you're already on some special diet for other reasons ...

Tis quite badly absorbed since it is hard to re-ionize without the aid of an acid solution. Thus, it has improved absorption if finely crushed and even more if mixed with citric acid or something... good point, will look into that more. I like the oxide since it has more Mg per mg, if you know what I mean. Depending on my stomach acids, as little as 4% can be absorbed... or as much as 50%.

I don't buy my own food, generally speaking. Plus, drugs and herbs do way more for me than exercise or food has ever done... by a factor of 10x or greater. There just isn't a comparison to the strength of drugs and herbs against ADHD. I try telling my health freak friends and physical trainer friends, but they think I've never "tried hard enough", and I tell them that they are full of it. I have tried, gotten to a point where I was working out every day and eating nothing but health foods for three months, and it couldn't touch on what I was able to achieve with one pill of Concerta or two weeks on Strattera.

Honestly, I'm so fed up with the cookie cutter advice, and I don't want to hear another piece of "you just need to" advice in my life. Please, limit advice to the drugs, supplements, and herbs.

Edited by devinthayer, 09 December 2011 - 06:13 PM.

[HighOrder]

how's your selegiline+DLPA working so far?

Particularly cardiovascular response.

Edited by HighOrder, 09 December 2011 - 06:18 PM.

[thedevinroy]

how's your selegiline+DLPA working so far?

The DLPA sort of super-charges the Selegiline effects. I never felt that much from DLPA before, so the Selegiline definitely seems to enhance or synergize in some way. If I take it without Ashwagandha, I get so high and light headed and dizzy, but with the Ashwagandha, I feel in control and satisfied, without feeling overstimulated. Neither one gives me that feeling. It's the combo. Huperzine A also helps with the side effects and increases the feeling of self control.

When I take the DLPA, I feel very awake. I compare it to Modafinil in some ways. My vision gets brighter, my circulation improves, and my head feels like someone turned up the speed and volume. Eh, it's a bit too strong at times, and I get high. That's why I have to balance it out using plant extracts.

Edited by devinthayer, 09 December 2011 - 06:27 PM.

[HighOrder]

how would you rate the combo's effectiveness in your experience so far:

motivation:
attention:
cardiac sides:

compared to the traditional stims?

[thedevinroy]

how would you rate the combo's effectiveness in your experience so far:

motivation:
attention:
cardiac sides:

compared to the traditional stims?

Stimulant Motivation: 10
Stimulant Attention: 10
Stimulant Sides: 3 (bad)

Combo Motivation: 7.5
Combo Attention: 9
Combo Sides: 10

One thing that is very important is that this regimen basically accounts for all possible side effects. I don't get insomnia. I don't get twitching. I don't get ringing in my ears. I don't get elevated blood pressure (without caffeine). It helps in all areas of the disorder without hurting my health, if anything, it is improving my health. I feel healthy.

[HighOrder]

twitching on stims, that's possibly a sign of suboptimal magnesium/potassium levels, which can aggravate anxiety. I don't know how they came up with the RDA of 4.7grams of K per day, but it sounds massive, I don't think many people get that much K per day; and magnesium deficiencies are also relatively common.

I had serious twitching myself, and after supplementing with a gallon of tomato juice per day and 2+ grams of elemental Mg (as magnesium citrate) split in several doses throughout the day, I had a very pronounced feeling of muscular relaxation, almost like after good massage. Unfortunately, it also reliably induced some diarrhea.

Probably a good idea to manage tolerance with memantine, since DXM is contraindicated with MAOIs, the original selegiline-PEA studies either did not mention anything about it or that there was no tolerance at all, but there are anecdotal reports of tolerance to this combo.

Inhibiting selegiline's breakdown is of no use, also I don't think it needs to be split in two doses per day. It'll inhibit MAO-B just fine with a single dose, and no need to prevent its breakdown, that's how it does the job, by irreversibly inactivating MAO-B molecules. If curcumin does indeed have any significant MAO-A inhibition, mixing it with this combo is downright dangerous.

You could probably even dose selegiline every other day after some time, its effective half life is 7-14 days.

[thedevinroy]

twitching on stims, that's possibly a sign of suboptimal magnesium/potassium levels, which can aggravate anxiety. I don't know how they came up with the RDA of 4.7grams of K per day, but it sounds massive, I don't think many people get that much K per day; and magnesium deficiencies are also relatively common.

I had serious twitching myself, and after supplementing with a gallon of tomato juice per day and 2+ grams of elemental Mg (as magnesium citrate) split in several doses throughout the day, I had a very pronounced feeling of muscular relaxation, almost like after good massage. Unfortunately, it also reliably induced some diarrhea.

Probably a good idea to manage tolerance with memantine, since DXM is contraindicated with MAOIs, the original selegiline-PEA studies either did not mention anything about it or that there was no tolerance at all, but there are anecdotal reports of tolerance to this combo.

Inhibiting selegiline's breakdown is of no use, also I don't think it needs to be split in two doses per day. It'll inhibit MAO-B just fine with a single dose, and no need to prevent its breakdown, that's how it does the job, by irreversibly inactivating MAO-B molecules. If curcumin does indeed have any significant MAO-A inhibition, mixing it with this combo is downright dangerous.

You could probably even dose selegiline every other day after some time, its effective half life is 7-14 days.

You are neglecting something I deem noteworthy about Selegiline... its metabolites. It's effect on MAO-B may be the only thing you have considered as beneficial. First, it is not metabolized over the course of 1-2 weeks, but it has a relatively short half life (1 to 3 hours); perhaps you are referring to the rate at which MAO-B is replaced after being permanently inhibited. Second, it is metabolized into the neurotrophic growth factor stimulant, desmethylselegiline. Third, most of it is metabolized into L-Methamphetamine, which attributes to a dopaminergic effect (http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9918585) without heavy stimulating effects such as raised blood pressure (some say it has 1/10 of the strength as D-Methamphetamine). Fourth, a small portion is metabolized into L-Amphetamine, which is 1/4 as strong as D-Amphetamine. Fifth, both L-Amphetamine and L-Methamphetamine enhance memory, reversing the effects of scopalamine inhibition (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19368765).

It is a pro-drug to some slight stimulants, which attribute to a secondary, but very important, mechanisms of action. This does not make it a stimulant, per se, but it does have a similar side effect profile. In my opinion it is just a strong antidepressant. After a while (a month), the stimulating side effects go away.

The major side effects I still have are vertigo and lightheadedness which go away with the use of Ashwagandha (and Gotu Kola and Huperzia but not as well).

[thedevinroy]

Forgot to mention... Huperzia is a pretty potent NMDA antagonist, too. Gotu Kola has some effects in this area. Zinc doubles as a GABA-A/NMDA antagonist... and is actually fairly potent in both areas. I keep magnesium on hand because it is more or less a strict NMDA antagonist, to which I can treat twitching and hyperactivity.

Now I know to chew it up first...

[thedevinroy]

UPDATE:

Added Adrafinil (300mg yesterday, 600mg today) for experimentation. Cuts way back on my need for tea and coffee. I no longer crash mid-day. Similar effect to DLPA, but more dopaminergic. Does raise blood pressure. Does come on way slower than Modafinil. This is merely a temporary experiment, not a solution or a regimen inclusion. For those that tolerate stimulants well, it definitely works well with this regimen. It is kind of anxiogenic, but I generally lack any form of anxiety... so... can't say how much, just enough for me to care about getting things done.

This lack of apathy is not something I get from any one of these things.

[thedevinroy]

UPDATE:

Purchased the Jiaogulin, a circulation tonic and immune stimulant. It's a general longevity herb.

• Stabilizes blood pressure
• Increases NO
• Lowers heart rate while increasing heart stroke
• Increases SOD
• Lowers cholesterol and triglecerides
• Treats jet lag and altitude sickness
• Treats diabetes
• Protective of dopaminergic neurons
• Suppresses tumor growth
• Attenuates white matter from brain decline
• Inhibits Na/K Pump in the brain (retains Potassium in the cell, lowers Sodium)

The thing I am most interested in is its Potassium retention effects. Potassium, as many have noted, can arguably treat ADHD symptoms. As HighOrder stated, it's a really hard mineral to make sure you get enough. It may be interesting to note that both the D4 dopaminergic receptor and Alpha2A adrenergic receptor both downregulate cAMP production in the prefrontal cortex, and that cAMP inhibits proper transmission in this area. cAMP upregulates the Na/K pump.

Should be in by Tuesday or Wednesday next week.

Edited by devinthayer, 09 December 2011 - 09:32 PM.

[malden]

Dont you get an awfull after taste of the DLPA ?

(good regime btw, im using something similar, no short term stims for me.)

[thedevinroy]

Dont you get an awfull after taste of the DLPA ?

(good regime btw, im using something similar, no short term stims for me.)

It's sort of a chalky sweet... like aspartame and magnesium or a rusty sugar spoon dipped in chalk. You don't taste it if you just keep your mouth shut while you chew the bits of clumped powder for a few minutes. It sucks... it's really not enjoyable, even though it resembles some sort of sweet. I've somehow a better gag reflex from all these raw powders and granules, so the power is usually in the chaser.

Do you do anything different with your stack that helps?

Edited by devinthayer, 11 December 2011 - 05:50 AM.

[malden]

Dont you get an awfull after taste of the DLPA ?

(good regime btw, im using something similar, no short term stims for me.)

It's sort of a chalky sweet... like aspartame and magnesium or a rusty sugar spoon dipped in chalk. You don't taste it if you just keep your mouth shut while you chew the bits of clumped powder for a few minutes. It sucks... it's really not enjoyable, even though it resembles some sort of sweet. I've somehow a better gag reflex from all these raw powders and granules, so the power is usually in the chaser.

Do you do anything different with your stack that helps?

Hehe I have 200 gram of DLPA to make up, dont like the taste either.

Take a look at ursolic acid, it give me substaineble effects.

some of the first hits of google,

http://mcr.aacrjourn...t/5/9/943.short

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15193771

http://onlinelibrary...08.00864.x/full

[thedevinroy]

Took some olive leaf extract yesterday. Each pill was worth 500mg at 6% ... took about 18 in 4 hours. Felt like I drank 4 cups of green tea. It didn't improve cognition, just energy levels. Made me feel very warm. Perhaps would work in conjunction with catechin-based herbal nootropics.

[Sartac]

OP, have you tried galantamine or donepezil? Just curious about your take on these vs Huperzine A.

[thedevinroy]

OP, have you tried galantamine or donepezil? Just curious about your take on these vs Huperzine A.

I have not yet. I may when I reach my 500's or so... that stuff is mainly for Alzheimer's. I think Huperzine A is a lot safer than either one of those, at least in comparison with Donepezil toxicity. On the Galantamine wiki, it mentions that it may increase mortality rate. I'm sticking with Huperzine A. It's quite neuroprotective and nontoxic.

[HighOrder]

I have not yet. I may when I reach my 500's or so... that stuff is mainly for Alzheimer's. I think Huperzine A is a lot safer than either one of those, at least in comparison with Donepezil toxicity. On the Galantamine wiki, it mentions that it may increase mortality rate. I'm sticking with Huperzine A. It's quite neuroprotective and nontoxic.

What's the issue with Donepezil? I was thinking of trying it out.

[thedevinroy]

magnesium oxide is the worst form of magnesium, next time buy something better like magnesium citrate, orotate and so on (look on forum).

and i know you said that you can't manage diet right now, but of course you can make at least small changes except if you're already on some special diet for other reasons ...

Tis quite badly absorbed since it is hard to re-ionize without the aid of an acid solution. Thus, it has improved absorption if finely crushed and even more if mixed with citric acid or something... good point, will look into that more. I like the oxide since it has more Mg per mg, if you know what I mean. Depending on my stomach acids, as little as 4% can be absorbed... or as much as 50%.

I OD'd on magnesium today or got an allergic reaction or took too much olive leaf last night or just got a virus or had food poisoning or just got a migraine from not enough sleep and too much in my head or from having Gotu Kola withdrawal... not sure. Yesterday I had pizza with slime from pepporoni, and I am not used to pig grease in my system. I usually stay far away from that stuff... could be that.

Took my regular morning regime, minus the Gotu Kola (out). Around 9:30am had 5 servings of almonds (usually have more, but was good). Had an upset stomach from a 4C Energy Rush drink, so I looked around for Tums. No Tums. I took some magnesium oxide (with magnesium gluconate). It worked, and I felt great. About 30minutes after taking magnesium, my vision was missing a giant crescent chunk mid-right hand side in both eyes. I also got extremely flush.

I took a nap, and it mostly went away by noon. After I had some chicken pot pie, it went away completely. Minus a slight headache, I feel great. I don't feel tired, not energized either... though that is partially the Adrafinil's fault. I'll save those for a rainy day.

Today was weird. I think with the double dose of magnesium on top of the almonds (which also have magnesium), I filled up 20% of my kainate receptors or worse... http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/8828417 Heh, never had hypermagnesemia, but it feels great ... minus the blind part... jk, jk...

Honestly it was probably a migraine from lack of sleep + Adrafinil.

[thedevinroy]

I have not yet. I may when I reach my 500's or so... that stuff is mainly for Alzheimer's. I think Huperzine A is a lot safer than either one of those, at least in comparison with Donepezil toxicity. On the Galantamine wiki, it mentions that it may increase mortality rate. I'm sticking with Huperzine A. It's quite neuroprotective and nontoxic.

What's the issue with Donepezil? I was thinking of trying it out.

Not much, just you can OD on it, whereas Huperzine A is harder to OD. Donepezil will send you to the hospital if you take 10x recommended dose, but 2mg (10x 200mcg) of Huperzine A is just going to give you diarheah, lethargy, and maybe a headache. Or not? I take about 600mcg in a dose... no side effects, but I've also been taking it for a while.

Case Study of Donepezil overdose: http://www.theannals...ontent/33/7/812

Edited by devinthayer, 13 December 2011 - 12:24 AM.

[thedevinroy]

Tried the Jiaogulan last night. I felt it kicking in... my blood felt warm. It was very soothing like a muscle relaxant. This stuff would be great for restless legs. I slept like a baby. My heart calmed way down (to about where it should be) which is probably why I was ready for bed. I understand that this herb may have potential as a workout supplement due to the nitric oxide enhancement, but it was quite calming as well. It didn't enhance focus, like I was hoping, but it definitely didn't hurt it.

Perhaps it may be an effective brain and workout supplement alongside a stimulant or vasoconstrictor to counter the hypertension.

[computeTHIS]

Lithium is just... well a great nootropic at its nootropic dose.

Indeed, I finally decided to order some Lithium Aspartate since people reported more "dulling" or drowsiness with the orotate, plus the Aspartate is actually FDA approved. I look forward to trying it out.

Also, are there any dangers with high-dose vitamin C? I have 1000mg tablets but I'm afraid of taking them very often. One day I took a 1000mg tablet shortly after taking NAC (due to claims that NAC should be supplemented with vitamin C) and then I had pain in my left kidney all next day. I've never had that problem just taking NAC by itself. I'm thinking I took the vitamin C too soon after the NAC (30 min), I probably should have waited the next day to take the vitamin C.

[thedevinroy]

Lithium is just... well a great nootropic at its nootropic dose.

Indeed, I finally decided to order some Lithium Aspartate since people reported more "dulling" or drowsiness with the orotate, plus the Aspartate is actually FDA approved. I look forward to trying it out.

Also, are there any dangers with high-dose vitamin C? I have 1000mg tablets but I'm afraid of taking them very often. One day I took a 1000mg tablet shortly after taking NAC (due to claims that NAC should be supplemented with vitamin C) and then I had pain in my left kidney all next day. I've never had that problem just taking NAC by itself. I'm thinking I took the vitamin C too soon after the NAC (30 min), I probably should have waited the next day to take the vitamin C.

Freaky. Could just be the Vitamin C. Are you prone to kidney stones?

http://www.breathing...showtopic=11097

How much NAC are you taking? They say the ratio should be 1000mg of Vit C to 600mg NAC.

I've had kidney stone before, and I haven't had one in years. Been taking 500mg Vitamin C for a month or so.

It's surprising how cheap lithium is...

[StarMitten20818]

Adding in bacopa slowly over the course of the next few months, ~100 mgs morning - ~1g +/-.5g, at night would help balance everything out. I think moving ashwa to mid day is a good idea.

[thedevinroy]

Bought some Kratom for a friend for Christmas. It's an opiate-like herb from Thialand illegal in 10 countries due to addiction and withdrawal, but not the great US of A. With the ounce I ordered came about 4 grams of a "sample". Last night, I put 400mg of "strain Y" (Green Riau Red Vein Kratom) in with a chamomile tea bag, let it steep for 5 minutes, and downed the tea. I've never had Kratom before, and I thought it would put me to sleep like codeine or morphine. Instead, it prevented heavy-headedness and lethargy.

This morning I awoke with that same great feeling... like I had the choice to run a mile or sleep for hours in loud traffic. Turns out, Kratom upregulates the D2 dopaminergic receptor... a Gi coupled protein, which thus downregulates cAMP signalling. Damn, would have never thought that had I not research Kratom on this forum. Turns out, I'm not the only ADHDer who benefits from Kratom use. A lot of people use it for power sessions to get work done without feeling over compulsive.

I'm not going to take it everyday or anything, but I did find it interesting. I guess Rhodiola Rosea increases production of natural opioids. Perhaps a cycle of Rhodiola Rosea and Kratom ...? Thoughts on that would be helpful. Never tried Rhodiola Rosea, but it seems to be popular enough with reason.

Very interesting new concept I have uncovered for myself...

Edited by devinthayer, 14 December 2011 - 06:59 PM.