71 replies to this topic

[JChief]

I created this thread because this is a novel concept in health and longevity that I came across a few years ago and wanted to share with you all. I have not been sick and wanted to share this video of an interview of an author of a book I read called Never Be Sick Again. Simple system. Every disease is caused by a malfunctioning cell; either by toxicity or by deficiency. 1 disease: 2 causes. And the way to prevent disease we need to not only eat a proper diet but also supplement appropriately (quality supplements are hard to find) and reverse toxic overload to allow our bodies to heal naturally.

Interview


Also check out The Gerson Institute for cancer (controversial for some), The Project to End Disease for education. Paleo is better than a lot of other alternatives to be sure. But it's not best I'm afraid.

The question becomes not whether or not you can prevent and cure disease. But whether or not you can afford it..

Edited by JChief, 09 December 2011 - 05:25 PM.

[ViolettVol]

I created this thread because this is a novel concept in health and longevity that I came across a few years ago and wanted to share with you all. I have not been sick and wanted to share this video of an interview of an author of a book I read called Never Be Sick Again. Simple system. Every disease is caused by a malfunctioning cell; either by toxicity or by deficiency. 1 disease: 2 causes. And the way to prevent disease we need to not only eat a proper diet but also supplement appropriately (quality supplements are hard to find) and reverse toxic overload to allow our bodies to heal naturally.

Interview


Also check out The Gerson Institute for cancer (controversial for some), The Project to End Disease for education. Paleo is better than a lot of other alternatives to be sure. But it's not best I'm afraid.

The question becomes not whether or not you can prevent and cure disease. But whether or not you can afford it..

This sounds very interesting, I'm tempted to buy the book, but first I' am going to check out the site. Nutrition and supplements can really get so confusing and the premise he is basing this on is really a no-brainer -if cells were healthy, we would not get sick and most likely, aging would slow down significantly as well.Thanks for sharing this!

[JChief]

I created this thread because this is a novel concept in health and longevity that I came across a few years ago and wanted to share with you all. I have not been sick and wanted to share this video of an interview of an author of a book I read called Never Be Sick Again. Simple system. Every disease is caused by a malfunctioning cell; either by toxicity or by deficiency. 1 disease: 2 causes. And the way to prevent disease we need to not only eat a proper diet but also supplement appropriately (quality supplements are hard to find) and reverse toxic overload to allow our bodies to heal naturally.

Interview


Also check out The Gerson Institute for cancer (controversial for some), The Project to End Disease for education. Paleo is better than a lot of other alternatives to be sure. But it's not best I'm afraid.

The question becomes not whether or not you can prevent and cure disease. But whether or not you can afford it..

This sounds very interesting, I'm tempted to buy the book, but first I' am going to check out the site. Nutrition and supplements can really get so confusing and the premise he is basing this on is really a no-brainer -if cells were healthy, we would not get sick and most likely, aging would slow down significantly as well.Thanks for sharing this!

Very welcome! The only thing I could see people take issue with his stance on dairy. The alternative would be the Weston A Price stance but in that case it's raw milk which has probiotic benefits and is different than what you consume from the typical supermarket. But the truth is dairy is not necessary for good health.

[JChief]

I created this thread because this is a novel concept in health and longevity that I came across a few years ago and wanted to share with you all. I have not been sick and wanted to share this video of an interview of an author of a book I read called Never Be Sick Again. Simple system. Every disease is caused by a malfunctioning cell; either by toxicity or by deficiency. 1 disease: 2 causes. And the way to prevent disease we need to not only eat a proper diet but also supplement appropriately (quality supplements are hard to find) and reverse toxic overload to allow our bodies to heal naturally.

Interview


Also check out The Gerson Institute for cancer (controversial for some), The Project to End Disease for education. Paleo is better than a lot of other alternatives to be sure. But it's not best I'm afraid.

The question becomes not whether or not you can prevent and cure disease. But whether or not you can afford it..

This sounds very interesting, I'm tempted to buy the book, but first I' am going to check out the site. Nutrition and supplements can really get so confusing and the premise he is basing this on is really a no-brainer -if cells were healthy, we would not get sick and most likely, aging would slow down significantly as well.Thanks for sharing this!

As far as supplements go I could save you some money by letting you know a lot of the vitamins (with the exact same vitamers, quality etc) are offered for a cheaper price from Perque. Perque brand products are sold online if you Google it. The Olive Oil he recommends is sourced from Bariani Olive Oil if you ever are curious. I figured all this out after the fact. Good health sure ain't cheap but I think of the medical expenses that could be spared!

Edited by JChief, 09 December 2011 - 05:59 PM.

[rwac]

I agree with about 4/5 of what he says. He might be wrong about sugar and dairy.

[ViolettVol]

I created this thread because this is a novel concept in health and longevity that I came across a few years ago and wanted to share with you all. I have not been sick and wanted to share this video of an interview of an author of a book I read called Never Be Sick Again. Simple system. Every disease is caused by a malfunctioning cell; either by toxicity or by deficiency. 1 disease: 2 causes. And the way to prevent disease we need to not only eat a proper diet but also supplement appropriately (quality supplements are hard to find) and reverse toxic overload to allow our bodies to heal naturally.

Interview


Also check out The Gerson Institute for cancer (controversial for some), The Project to End Disease for education. Paleo is better than a lot of other alternatives to be sure. But it's not best I'm afraid.

The question becomes not whether or not you can prevent and cure disease. But whether or not you can afford it..

This sounds very interesting, I'm tempted to buy the book, but first I' am going to check out the site. Nutrition and supplements can really get so confusing and the premise he is basing this on is really a no-brainer -if cells were healthy, we would not get sick and most likely, aging would slow down significantly as well.Thanks for sharing this!

As far as supplements go I could save you some money by letting you know a lot of the vitamins (with the exact same vitamers, quality etc) are offered for a cheaper price from Perque. Perque brand products are sold online if you Google it. The Olive Oil he recommends is sourced from Bariani Olive Oil if you ever are curious. I figured all this out after the fact. Good health sure ain't cheap but I think of the medical expenses that could be spared!

Yeah, what bothered me about the beyond health site is that they push their own supplements - and those certainly arent the only quality supps on the market, are they?

[rwac]

As far as supplements go I could save you some money by letting you know a lot of the vitamins (with the exact same vitamers, quality etc) are offered for a cheaper price from Perque.

These guys who go on tv always seem to say that vitamins have absorption problems. This is bullshit, most vitamins you would find in stores are actually pretty decently absorbable, and the useless ones are basically a minority.

I guess they have to find a way to sell their overpriced vitamins. Is this really the only way?

[JChief]

True the supplements are marked up. I also explained they are Perque sourced. Perque only sells to doctors from what I can tell but there must be a loophole because you can buy them from places like PureFormulas.com and elsewhere. There is a lot of free information on the website. The book goes into great detail. But as a biochemist and having consulted for the vitamin supplement industry for a time he explains how formulators are driven by profits, not quality, and how specific vitamins work and are broken down in the body. Cyanocobalamin actually breaks down as cyanide in your blood, for instance. :O It's cheap though and this is how vitamin companies offer affordable vitamins to the consumer yet also make their profits. I've said in another post about hydroxocobalamin as the best form of B12. It's like $1000 per lb and isn't found in but only the best of them (Vimmortal uses this form by the way, Ola Loa is another brand - it's not just him that offers this). Also Vitamin C for instance much of the time it breaks down into d-ascorbate and l-ascorbate and your body can only use the latter. It's like the difference between your right hand and your left. Same amount of fingers etc but you cannot put a baseball glove on that's intended for the other hand if that makes any sense. To prevent oxidation it should be "fully reduced, corn free" l-ascorbate. Otherwise it's like getting 50 cents for every dollar you spend. Beyond Health has their own markup (again mostly sourced from Perque) but everybody has to make a living somehow. You don't have to buy from him though. He explains what to look for on the label regardless of where you purchase from. Profits are the name of the "sick"care industry anyhow. You call can look into this on your own. It's there should you anyone choose to take advantage here. I'm just sharing.

Edited by JChief, 10 December 2011 - 06:02 AM.

[ViolettVol]

True the supplements are marked up. I also explained they are Perque sourced. Perque only sells to doctors from what I can tell but there must be a loophole because you can buy them from places like PureFormulas.com and elsewhere. There is a lot of free information on the website. The book goes into great detail. But as a biochemist and having consulted for the vitamin supplement industry for a time he explains how formulators are driven by profits, not quality, and how specific vitamins work and are broken down in the body. Cyanocobalamin actually breaks down as cyanide in your blood, for instance. :O It's cheap though and this is how vitamin companies offer affordable vitamins to the consumer yet also make their profits. I've said in another post about hydroxocobalamin as the best form of B12. It's like $1000 per lb and isn't found in but only the best of them (Vimmortal uses this form by the way, Ola Loa is another brand - it's not just him that offers this). Also Vitamin C for instance much of the time it breaks down into d-ascorbate and l-ascorbate and your body can only use the latter. It's like the difference between your right hand and your left. Same amount of fingers etc but you cannot put a baseball glove on that's intended for the other hand if that makes any sense. To prevent oxidation it should be "fully reduced, corn free" l-ascorbate. Otherwise it's like getting 50 cents for every dollar you spend. Beyond Health has their own markup (again mostly sourced from Perque) but everybody has to make a living somehow. You don't have to buy from him though. He explains what to look for on the label regardless of where you purchase from. Profits are the name of the "sick"care industry anyhow. You call can look into this on your own. It's there should you anyone choose to take advantage here. I'm just sharing.

So ordering from pureformulas I can be certain that I'm getting quality sups?

[crzar]

Recently I was searching info on Dr Giampapa and found he co founded http://www.healthbooksummaries.com

This is a free service and takes the best of health books and concisely brings out the better points for quick and rapid understanding.

This site is a work in progress and is a growing library. I am reading the condensed version of Never Be Sick Again: Health is a Choice, Learn How to Choose It By Raymond Francis with Kester Cotton

For those of you who might be interested in this topic may I suggest visiting http://www.healthbooksummaries.com and sign up for free!

[JChief]

True the supplements are marked up. I also explained they are Perque sourced. Perque only sells to doctors from what I can tell but there must be a loophole because you can buy them from places like PureFormulas.com and elsewhere. There is a lot of free information on the website. The book goes into great detail. But as a biochemist and having consulted for the vitamin supplement industry for a time he explains how formulators are driven by profits, not quality, and how specific vitamins work and are broken down in the body. Cyanocobalamin actually breaks down as cyanide in your blood, for instance. :O It's cheap though and this is how vitamin companies offer affordable vitamins to the consumer yet also make their profits. I've said in another post about hydroxocobalamin as the best form of B12. It's like $1000 per lb and isn't found in but only the best of them (Vimmortal uses this form by the way, Ola Loa is another brand - it's not just him that offers this). Also Vitamin C for instance much of the time it breaks down into d-ascorbate and l-ascorbate and your body can only use the latter. It's like the difference between your right hand and your left. Same amount of fingers etc but you cannot put a baseball glove on that's intended for the other hand if that makes any sense. To prevent oxidation it should be "fully reduced, corn free" l-ascorbate. Otherwise it's like getting 50 cents for every dollar you spend. Beyond Health has their own markup (again mostly sourced from Perque) but everybody has to make a living somehow. You don't have to buy from him though. He explains what to look for on the label regardless of where you purchase from. Profits are the name of the "sick"care industry anyhow. You call can look into this on your own. It's there should you anyone choose to take advantage here. I'm just sharing.

So ordering from pureformulas I can be certain that I'm getting quality sups?

I would phrase it a different way. The supplements you order from anywhere should be quality, of course. I recommended Perque which can be purchased online and pureformulas is a vendor I know for certain carries it at a cheaper price than Beyond Health. But, if you were to purchase Perque brand products from a place such as pureformulas (whoever carries it) then, yes, you can be reasonably sure that you are getting some of the highest quality supplements available. And that, along with proper diet, and reducing your exposure to toxins and allowing your body to heal itself is the key to good health, he'll tell you. And I believe it. Because I fortunately haven't gotten sick since I decided to make better life choices. I don't eat the perfect diet and I make lifestyle choices that aren't ideal but at least I know what I should be doing. And I do supplement a bunch and exercise. And I feel grateful because not only have I learned this information I have learned this at a fairly young age. I'm 27. The better the diet the less supplements I feel you need (I haven't been eating as good as I should but its probably better than a lot of my peers). Here are what I would have in the running in the household and we have some unique needs and it certainly doesn't have to be this complex (you don't have to purchase from here but you can at least review the product ingredients and their primary purpose):

Uridine (mitochondrial & mood support, Triacetyluridine 100mg daily)
EPA/DHA w/ breakfast (500mg DHA)
ALCAR (brain antioxidant; male fertility)
PQQ (antioxidant/protects mitochondria)
Gotu Kola (Chinese brain health)
He Shou Wu/Fo Ti (Chinese longevity herb)
Deer Antler Velvet (Chinese restorative herb)
Tongkat Ali cycled (men only - testosterone/anti-tumor)
Metagenics FolaPro (female hormone support; promotes L-5-Methyltetrahydrofolate)
Red Clover Tops (women only - hormone support)
Liver Support
Vitamin D3 liquid (add’l depending on season)
Bone Guard
Multivitamin
Turmeric/Circumin (antioxidant)
Ginger (all around health)
Kyolic Aged Garlic Extract (cardiovascular/all-around)
Astaxanthin (to help prevent sunburn while tanning/antioxidant/cardiovascular)
Vitamin C
Olive Leaf Extract (boost immunity/antioxidant)
Activated Barley (slow burning carb pre-workout)
MSM (repair from workouts)
Whey Protein powder (muscle building + BCAAs)
Creatine (reduce soreness/supports brain energy homeostasis)
Endura/Pak Guard (glutamine/PAK for repair)
Detox In Guard (cellular detox)
Repair Guard (anti-inflammatory/repair)
Fiber
Zinc
Coconut Oil (add to green smoothies)
Olive Oil (frequently w/ Tomato+S&P)

Edited by JChief, 10 December 2011 - 05:49 PM.

[niner]

Simple system. Every disease is caused by a malfunctioning cell; either by toxicity or by deficiency. 1 disease: 2 causes. And the way to prevent disease we need to not only eat a proper diet but also supplement appropriately (quality supplements are hard to find) and reverse toxic overload to allow our bodies to heal naturally.

For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant,... and wrong. I can't help but feel that this is one of them. Never Get Sick Again. Never? Does this mean that no matter what infectious agent I encounter, I'll be immune to it? That no matter what defective genes I carry, everything will be cool as long as I eat right and take the right overpriced supplements? I'm dubious. I suppose we could say that some of this is just hyperbole, but where does the hyperbole end and the truth begin? How much hyperbole can there be before we start using words like 'scam' and 'lies' to describe it?

I've seen a number of overpriced supplements that are only sold through doctors. Part of the reason they are overpriced is because the doctor gets a cut. That is a conflict of interest. Whenever I've checked these supplements out, they've never been very impressive. How do we even know the no-name supplement company knows what it's doing, that the ingredients are pure? Because the doctor says so? He gets a cut, and he's just repeating what the salesman told him. Salesmen would never bend the truth...

We all agree that a good diet and the right amount of needed supplements is a good idea, and will result in better health. We're less sure exactly what 'good', 'right amount', and 'needed' are. I'm sure there's a grain of truth behind the NGSA plan; it's just that there are so many red flags...

[JChief]

Simple system. Every disease is caused by a malfunctioning cell; either by toxicity or by deficiency. 1 disease: 2 causes. And the way to prevent disease we need to not only eat a proper diet but also supplement appropriately (quality supplements are hard to find) and reverse toxic overload to allow our bodies to heal naturally.

For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant,... and wrong. I can't help but feel that this is one of them. Never Get Sick Again. Never? Does this mean that no matter what infectious agent I encounter, I'll be immune to it? That no matter what defective genes I carry, everything will be cool as long as I eat right and take the right overpriced supplements? I'm dubious. I suppose we could say that some of this is just hyperbole, but where does the hyperbole end and the truth begin? How much hyperbole can there be before we start using words like 'scam' and 'lies' to describe it?

I've seen a number of overpriced supplements that are only sold through doctors. Part of the reason they are overpriced is because the doctor gets a cut. That is a conflict of interest. Whenever I've checked these supplements out, they've never been very impressive. How do we even know the no-name supplement company knows what it's doing, that the ingredients are pure? Because the doctor says so? He gets a cut, and he's just repeating what the salesman told him. Salesmen would never bend the truth...

We all agree that a good diet and the right amount of needed supplements is a good idea, and will result in better health. We're less sure exactly what 'good', 'right amount', and 'needed' are. I'm sure there's a grain of truth behind the NGSA plan; it's just that there are so many red flags...

I was there too at one point. Trust me. I was dealing with lots of issues at the time. I came down with one of the worst bouts of bronchitis years ago that lasted months and decided I needed to do something different than what I was doing before. I was in college and ate a diet consisting mainly of fast food lol... I was not in the best mental health at the time either and was dealing with repeated bouts of panic attacks that were managed through prescription medications. I would leave the ER to have the doctor tell me there was nothing wrong and that it was "just a panic attack" and to simply take my medication and I'd be fine. Yet for me I thought it wasn't fine. There must have been something wrong with my body and the panic attacks were just a symptom of a larger problem. When I started taking note of pill ads and how they were marked as controlling the "cause" of whatever illness it was marketed to cure I would always think to myself "if you need medicine then you are not taking care of the cause you are merely masking another symptom." I wanted to know what the cause was of my numerous issues.

Modern medicine in all its glory has failed thus far. I lost yet another family member to cancer, for instance, and I am dissatisfied with the solutions that are offered. In my (continued) research I feel that chemotherapy and radiation are far from cures. In fact many times it's not effective at all and sometimes can even kill you quicker. You see, doctors know very little about nutrition. In particular, vitamins and their role on human health. Biochemists, on the other hand, do. Before I found Raymond's work I was looking into the "raw food" movement and some of the interesting health claims presented therein. After more research I found the Gerson Institute. There is a documentary called The Beautiful Truth documenting the amazing things that clinic has done to actually CURE cancer by restoring health and allowing the body to heal on its own. I highly recommend. It was enough for me to adopt a new diet. I did not sustain the raw food diet beyond a few months but I noticed health improvements in just that short amount of time. So for me on a basic level I was already leaning toward proper nutrition as one of the most powerful steps we can take to prevent and even cure disease. I also looked into Gabriel Cousens and the work he has done at the Tree of Life center in Arizona. There was yet another documentary put out that showed plain as day that diabetes can be reversed. With both of my parents on medicines for diabetes that they both developed and the side effects and issues they had to go through it was infuriating to me that a doctor/hospital (places where as a kid I thought one could trust to help give us the best advice and treatment when it came to health) would not offer these alternatives that WORK. I have developed a high degree of distrust in conventional medicine and I am taking every step possible to ensure I don't fall in their care should I fall ill. Now, if I need reconstructive surgery on my leg then I'd feel fairly confident. But I'm talking about illness.

Consider, for instance, Vitamin C. Raymond considers this your cornerstone of health. IV Vitamin C as a cancer therapy adjunct was laughed at... until it was given some credibility through the University of Kansas. There are lots of special interests and ignorance that prevent basic truths from ever making it into the mainstream. Thanks to the power of the Internet people are waking up and more doctors now are beginning to embrace the connection between nutrition and health. I feel medicine will eventually catch up, in time. But I feel I'm ahead of the game. You'll never see someone disprove Raymond's claims about the usefulness of supplements. Because it's all based on science. Some of my observations and suspicions about nutrition and health were fully explained in Never Be Sick Again. I finally was able to connect all the dots. I even cured my panic attacks through one of his recommendations (Rosavin brand Rhodiola, the one that was used in all those research studies). I know the price of good supplements is an issue. But, another big truth in life, you get what you pay for. Invest in your health. Hopefully you can save a few bucks if you choose to take proper supplements because you can buy his multivitamin for $107 or you can buy it for $68. Everybody is in business to turn a profit. Trust me I was upset at the prices. And I did the research and found a way to save a few bucks. So, while on the Beyond Health website stick to the "Health Resources" on the right and bypass the Products page. The information is accurate.

Don't wait until you are sick to make a change.

Edited by JChief, 11 December 2011 - 11:14 AM.

[hivemind]

I would not buy anything from that old geezer. :D

His marketing is stupid:

Edited by hivemind, 11 December 2011 - 11:39 AM.

[JChief]

Granted he's more of a scientist than a salesman. Far from stupid. Come to think of it, I think it's good that he utilizes free resources to spread the word rather than hiring high dollar marketing agencies to make it all pretty for us. I don't want fluff. I want substance.

Edited by JChief, 11 December 2011 - 11:50 AM.

[JChief]

"The Beautiful Truth" succeeds because of its sympathetic provocation: Its engaging narrative and personal stories force us to question the U.S. medical establishment's rejection of Gerson's therapy and to question the establishment's relationship with the pharmaceutical industry. Audiences will be inspired to seek more information about the therapy, natural treatments for cancer and the American food industry's reliance on artificial additives to make tasty products. After watching this film, even buttered and salted popcorn - a staple of the moviegoing experience - takes on added (and disturbing) significance.

That was from a review from the San Francisco Chronicle. Bottom line all of this information is worthy of further review. There is not nearly enough attention being paid to this information and I am trying to get it out there.

Edited by JChief, 11 December 2011 - 01:13 PM.

[niner]

Granted he's more of a scientist than a salesman. Far from stupid. Come to think of it, I think it's good that he utilizes free resources to spread the word rather than hiring high dollar marketing agencies to make it all pretty for us. I don't want fluff. I want substance.

I didn't hear much science. I heard a whole bunch of unsupported claims. When I look at his $108/bottle multi, I don't see anything special. It looks like a decent multi, but "best in the universe" 400iu of dry vitamin d? 500 mcg dry K1, no K2 in any form? He should take a look at Vimmortal, or AOR.

I can appreciate that you used to feel lousy when you had a terrible diet, and now that you're eating better and supplementing decently you feel better. Most people here are already on board with the idea that eating right and getting all the micronutrients you need will improve your health compared to being malnourished. I just don't think this particular guy, with his wild claims and overpriced supplements is THE Answer.

Edited by niner, 11 December 2011 - 08:48 PM.

[JChief]

Granted he's more of a scientist than a salesman. Far from stupid. Come to think of it, I think it's good that he utilizes free resources to spread the word rather than hiring high dollar marketing agencies to make it all pretty for us. I don't want fluff. I want substance.

I didn't hear much science. I heard a whole bunch of unsupported claims. When I look at his $108/bottle multi, I don't see anything special. It looks like a decent multi, but "best in the universe" 400iu of dry vitamin d? 500 mcg dry K1, no K2 in any form? He should take a look at Vimmortal, or AOR.

I can appreciate that you used to feel lousy when you had a terrible diet, and now that you're eating better and supplementing decently you feel better. Most people here are already on board with the idea that eating right and getting all the micronutrients you need will improve your health compared to being malnourished. I just don't think this particular guy, with his wild claims and overpriced supplements is THE Answer.

I have seen Vimmortal. It's a great supplement. I know plenty plug it here. To nitpick, Vimmortal does not use the best form of vitamin C. That form will break down 50% L and D ascorbate. The Beyond Health brand (and I wish you would stop using his product as being the only solution as I pointed out it's sourced from Perque; it's much less than $100) and others offer 100% fully reduced (to prevent oxidation) l-ascorbate. You should take additional vitamin C anyways. Vitamin K2 is in the Bone Health formula (or Perque's Bone Guard). Upon closer review you'll see he has health "kits" put together. Perque formulates their products to work together. Usually the idea would be to supplement with the Multi, Vitamin C, Bone, and Detox. Beyond Health isn't the only brand out there. And the whole point of this thread was to read the book and I also pointed out the free materials on his website. Also, there are many more resources out there.

It's worth noting that I think a lot of the people here "on the board" are not taking Vimmortal or otherwise. They are taking the cheapest stuff can buy (Swanson's, GNC, etc) that offer inferior sources of vitamins. I love to pick on vitamin B12. Cyanocobalamin is found in these. The cheapest form. Methylcobalamin is the exact form found in the body but supplementing with any meaningful dose gets wasted in a short period of time because the body regulates B12 and eliminates it after a sudden influx. Hydroxocobalamin is the best form and it's found in Vimmortal and other, more pricey, brands. It breaks down into methylcobalamin at a slow and steady rate. Making it more useful to the body. It's a very important vitamin. Here is more:

There is no such thing as a B12 deficiency, even in 100% raw vegan food eaters. They do not have to eat dirt, animal products, or take pills to secure coenzymes of B12. Bacteria in the intestinal tract make it for us, and the metabolically usable and necessary forms of coenzyme B12 are contained in unprocessed, fresh natural plant foods, particularly in nuts and seeds. The real problem in so-called B12 deficiency is a failure of digestion and absorption of foods, rather than a deficiency of the vitamin itself.

[...]

A little publicized source of active Vitamin B12 coenzymes is from bacteria in the mouth, around the teeth, in the nasopharynx, around the tonsils and in the tonsilar crypts, in the folds at the base of the tongue, and in the upper bronchial tree. This source alone will supply sufficient quantities of Vitamin B12 coenzymes for the very small requirement of total vegetarians, especially considering that their needs for this vitamin are not as great as for those on conventional diets.

I have studied the Vitamin B12 issue thoroughly, and have learned that biochemists, neutraceutical scientists, and many writers mistakenly use the term Vitamin B12 for cyanocobalamin, THAT IS NOT USABLE BY THE BODY BUT which is in all vitamin B12 supplements. When speaking of Vitamin B12 they are referring to the semisynthetic Vitamin B12 (cyanocobalamin) that initially was contaminated with poisonous cyanide during its chemical extraction from animal tissues. Carbon columns are used during the extraction process and the carbon combines with nitrogen from the medium forming the poisonous cyanocobalamin, that scientists insist on calling Vitamin B12.

If an animal or individual is given cyanocobalamin the body removes the cyanide because it is not usable as a coenzyme and it is toxic. Interestingly, hydroxocobalamin is used for cyanide poisoning. **

** http://informahealth...563650600811607

Them are the facts.

Edited by JChief, 11 December 2011 - 09:12 PM.

[niner]

I have seen Vimmortal. It's a great supplement. I know plenty plug it here. To nitpick, Vimmortal does not use the best form of vitamin C. That form will break down 50% L and D ascorbate. The Beyond Health brand (and I wish you would stop using his product as being the only solution as I pointed out it's sourced from Perque; it's much less than $100) and others offer 100% fully reduced (to prevent oxidation) l-ascorbate.

The Linus Pauling Institute says that there is no biological difference between ascorbate and l-ascorbate. Sorry about the price thing; the Perque stuff's cheaper, but it's still expensive.

I love to pick on vitamin B12. Cyanocobalamin is found in these. The cheapest form. Methylcobalamin is the exact form found in the body but supplementing with any meaningful dose gets wasted in a short period of time because the body regulates B12 and eliminates it after a sudden influx. Hydroxocobalamin is the best form and it's found in Vimmortal and other, more pricey, brands. It breaks down into methylcobalamin at a slow and steady rate. Making it more useful to the body. It's a very important vitamin. Here is more:

There is no such thing as a B12 deficiency, even in 100% raw vegan food eaters. They do not have to eat dirt, animal products, or take pills to secure coenzymes of B12. Bacteria in the intestinal tract make it for us, and the metabolically usable and necessary forms of coenzyme B12 are contained in unprocessed, fresh natural plant foods, particularly in nuts and seeds. The real problem in so-called B12 deficiency is a failure of digestion and absorption of foods, rather than a deficiency of the vitamin itself.

[...]

A little publicized source of active Vitamin B12 coenzymes is from bacteria in the mouth, around the teeth, in the nasopharynx, around the tonsils and in the tonsilar crypts, in the folds at the base of the tongue, and in the upper bronchial tree. This source alone will supply sufficient quantities of Vitamin B12 coenzymes for the very small requirement of total vegetarians, especially considering that their needs for this vitamin are not as great as for those on conventional diets.

I have studied the Vitamin B12 issue thoroughly, and have learned that biochemists, neutraceutical scientists, and many writers mistakenly use the term Vitamin B12 for cyanocobalamin, THAT IS NOT USABLE BY THE BODY BUT which is in all vitamin B12 supplements. When speaking of Vitamin B12 they are referring to the semisynthetic Vitamin B12 (cyanocobalamin) that initially was contaminated with poisonous cyanide during its chemical extraction from animal tissues. Carbon columns are used during the extraction process and the carbon combines with nitrogen from the medium forming the poisonous cyanocobalamin, that scientists insist on calling Vitamin B12.

Cyanocobalamin is converted to hydroxocobalamin in the body. The nonsense about the "poisonous cyanide" is just Internet ignorance/paranoia rearing its all-too-common head. The amount of cyanide released by a 200 mcg dose of cyanocobalamin is 4 micrograms. That is so small as to be irrelevant to humans. It is dwarfed by the amount of cyanide in lots of natural foods and other sources that humans encounter all the time. Cyanide is not bioaccumulated; it's water soluble. B12 seems to be the vitamin with the most misinformation per microgram...

[JChief]

Cyanocobalamin is converted to hydroxocobalamin in the body.

Cyanocobalamin is not converted to hydroxocobalamin. However hydroxocobalamin converts to methylcobalamin (Active form). There is a reason why hydroxocobalamin was used in Vimmortal (I'd imagine if Longecity worked on the formulation) and not cyanocobalamin nor methylcobalamin.

Only hydroxocobalamin converts to methylcobalamin – seamlessly, locally as needed and used up within seconds. Local needs safely determine the speed of methylcobalamin synthesis. This protects the body from systemic effects as described below while providing all the benefits. Hydroxocobalamin is also the most stable form of vitamin B12.(1,2) Hydroxocobalamin is also easily converted to adenosylcobalamin, a form of B12 preferred by mitochondria, while methyl B12 is not cross converted. (3)

Risks of methylcobalamin Non-enzymatic Methylation of Mercury

“An early study of the biochemistry of microbial methylation of mercury involved the use of a cell extract of a methanogenic culture in the presence of low concentrations of Hg++. This extract caused the formation of (CH3)2Hg but had little methane through preferential interaction between methylcobalamin and Hg++. (4) Although the production of methylcobalamin in this instance depended on enzymatic catalysis, the production of (CH3)2Hg from the reaction of Hg++ with methylcobalamin did not. Simply put, without any other external influence, methylcobalamin can precipitate the formation of methylmercury in the body.

This nonenzymatic nature of mercury methylation by methylcobalamin has been confirmed by several scientists. (5,6). DeSimone explained this nonenzymatic mechanism of mercury methylation by methylcobalamin more than 25 years ago: (7) Hg +methylB12 → (CH3)2Hg+ (note added: hydroxocobalamin does not do this) According to Wood (8) the initial methylation of Hg++ in this reaction sequence proceeds 6000 times as fast as the second. However, more recent research has indicated that the methylation of methylmercury can proceed as fast as the initial methylation of mercury. (9,10) The methylation rate of methylmercury is affected by the counter ion associated with mercury. The rate is faster if sulfate is the counter ion than when it is a halogen ion such as chloride or iodide. (The halogens have a tendency to bind covalently to Hg++.)

Hydroxocobalamin has a half-life of days and is converted locally to methylcobalamin as needed. This longer retention and the higher blood levels achieved after hydroxycobalamin have been attributed to formation of stronger bonds formed by hydroxocobalamin.(11) Methylcobalamin has a very short half-life, measurable in minutes to hours.

1 Martindale:The Extra Pharmacopoeia, 30th Ed.,1993, 1055-1058
2 Linnell, J.C. et al. "Therapeutic Misuse of Cyanocobalamin". Lancet, November 11, 1978; pg
1053-1054.
3 Wayne A. Fenton and Leon E. Rosenberg Mitochondrial metabolism of hydroxocobalamin:
Synthesis of adenosylcobalamin by intact rat liver mitochondria
Archives of Biochemistry and Biophysics, 1978; 189(2): 441-447
4 Wood JM, Kennedy FS, Rosen CG.Synthesis of methyl-mercury compounds by extracts of a
methanogenic bacterium.Nature. 1968 Oct 12;220(5163):173-4.
5 Bertilsson L, Neujahr HY. Methylation of mercury compounds by methylcobalamin.
Biochemistry. 1971 Jul 6;10(14):2805-8.
6 Imura N, Sukegawa E, Pan SK, Nagao K, Kim JY, Kwan T, Ukita T. Chemical methylation of
inorganic mercury with methylcobalamin, a vitamin B12 analog.Science. 1971 Jun
18;172(989):1248-9.
7 DeSimone RE, Penley MW, Charbonneau L, Smith SG, Wood JM, Hill HA, Pratt JM, Ridsdale
S, Williams RJ. The kinetics and mechanism of cobalamin-dependent methyl and ethyl transfer to
mercuric ion.Biochim Biophys Acta. 1973 May 28;304(3):851-63.
8 Wood JM Biological cycles for toxic elements in the environment. Science 1974;183(129):1049-
52
9 Baldi F, Pepi M, Filippelli M. Methylmercury Resistance in Desulfovibrio desulfuricans Strains in
Relation to Methylmercury Degradation Appl Environ Microbiol. 1993 Aug;59(8):2479-85.
10 Baldi F. Microbial transformation of mercury species and their importance in the
biogeochemical cycle of mercury. Met Ions Biol Syst. 1997;34:213-57.
11 . Kohli RK, Nath A. .Significance of isomerization in hydroxocobalamin. Biochem Biophys Res
Commun. 1984 Dec 14;125(2):698-703

Further reading on hydroxocobalamin benefits:

• Elian KM, Hoffer LJ. Hydroxocobalamin reduces hyperhomocysteinemia in end-stage
renal disease. Metabolism. 2002 Jul; 51(7):881-886
• Hoffer LJ, Elian KM. Parenteral vitamin B12 therapy of hyperhomocysteinemia in endstage
renal disease. Clin Invest Med. 2004 Feb;27(1):10-13.
• den Heijer M, Brouwer IA, Bos GM, Blom HJ, van der Put NM, Spaans AP, Rosendaal
FR, Thomas CM, Haak HL, Wijermans PW, Gerrits WB. Vitamin supplementation
reduces blood homocysteine levels: a controlled trial in patients with venous thrombosis
and healthy volunteers. Arterioscler Thromb Vasc Biol. 1998 Mar;18(3):356-361.
• Ogier de Baulny H, Gérard M, Saudubray JM, Zittoun J. Remethylation defects:
Guidelines for clinical diagnosis and treatment. Eur J Pediatr. 1998 Apr;15 7 Suppl
2:S77-S83.
• Bertoglio K, James S, Daprey L, Norman B, Hendren R. Pilot Study of the Effect of
MethylB12 treatment on Behavioral and Biomarker Measures in Children with Autism,
JACM, 2010, 16(5): 555-560.

Edited by JChief, 11 December 2011 - 11:03 PM.

[JChief]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....d00105-0046.pdf - `Cyanocobalamin- a case for withdrawal: discussion paper`

"...there [is] no condition in which it has been claimed that cyanocobalamin was preferable to hydroxocobalamin"

It seems to be a United States thing as well I've noticed. In many other countries it is hydroxocobalamin that is the preferred vitamer for B12 deficiency. Of all the varities cyanocobalamin is actually the WORST choice, despite the fact that doctors in the US are more likely to prescribe it over any other form. Not only does cyanocobalamin require a higher dosage for the same effectiveness of hydroxycobalamin, but it is Entirely Ineffective for several different conditions related to vitamin B12 deficiency. As such, it has been suggested repeatedly by several researchers, starting with Dr. AG Freeman in 1970, that cyanocobalamin should be removed from the market. While Great Britain followed through with researcher recommendations and removed the inferior product, doctors in the the United States have no such restrictions and still use cyanocobalamin routinely.

Edited by JChief, 11 December 2011 - 11:35 PM.

[JChief]

The Linus Pauling Institute says that there is no biological difference between ascorbate and l-ascorbate. Sorry about the price thing; the Perque stuff's cheaper, but it's still expensive.

"Natural and synthetic L-ascorbic acid are chemically identical" - this is very true. Look, if the idea was to provide the highest quality Vitamin C the label would say, according to standards, "100% l-ascorbate, fully reduced, corn free" but it doesn't. The D-side of Vitamin C is designated as useless and discarded by the body. Most vitamin C is made from corn. Corn is a major allergen, and for those who are allergic to corn, corn based vitamin C may stress the immune system. In addition, most vitamin C products are not manufactured and handled with sufficient care; they often contain too much oxidized vitamin C, which can be harmful. Products such as Ester C contain as much as 10 percent oxidized vitamin C—not a good choice. It should say fully reduced to ensure oxidation is not a factor, which in turn creates free radicals in the body.

Edited by JChief, 11 December 2011 - 11:32 PM.

[JChief]

Perque stuff's cheaper, but it's still expensive.

I just did a little research. Perque brand, purchased from discount sellers such as this is only $12 more than Vimmortal. Plus instead of 6 capsules you take 2. Plus if you compare DV% you would find that Revgenetics goes a little light on the vitamins and you actually get more for your money when you compare you are getting the following from Perque:

2 tabsules contain:
Vitamins:
Vitamin A (beta-carotene) 5,000 IU (100%DV)
Vitamin B1 (thiamine HCl) 100mg (6,666%DV)
Vitamin B2 50mg (2,941%DV)
---(riboflavin 40mg; riboflavin 5-phosphate10mg)
Vitamin B3 (niacin) 25mg (125%DV)
Vitamin B3 (niacinamide) 75mg (375%DV)
Vitamin B5 (calcium d-pantothenate) 100mg (1,000%DV)
Vitamin B6 200mg (10,000%DV)
---(pyridoxine HCl160mg, pyridoxal 5-phosphate 40mg)
Vitamin B12 (hydroxocobalamin) 200mcg (3,333%DV)
Folate (folic acid) 400mcg (100%DV)
PABA (para-aminobenzoic acid) 30mg
Biotin (pure crystalline) 500mcg (166%DV)
Vitamin C 150mg (250%DV)
---(100% l-ascorbate, fully reduced, corn free)
Vitamin D3 (1.25 dihydroxycholecalciferol) 400 IU (100%DV)
Vitamins E (from mixed natural tocopherols) 200 IU (667%DV)
Vitamin K1 (phylloquinone) 500mcg (625%DV)
Elemental Minerals:
Potassium (as citrate) 99mg (3%DV)
Calcium 50mg (5%DV)
---(as ascorbate, pantothenate, citrate, fumarate, malate, and succinate)
Magnesium 100mg (25%DV)
---(as citrate, fumarate, malate, succinate, aspartate)
Zinc (as picolinate) 25mg (167%DV)
Boron (as ascorbate) 2mg
Chromium (as picolinate 50%, ascorbate 50%) 200mcg (167%DV)
Manganese (as ascorbate) 15mg (750%DV)
Molybdenum (as ascorbate) 100mcg (133%DV)
Selenium (as l-selenomethionine) 50mcg (71%DV)
Vanadium (as ascorbate) 100mcg
Active Cofactors:
Quercetin dihydrate (water-soluble bioflavonoid) 100mg
L-aspartic acid (magnesium aspartate) 50mg
Trimethylglycine (betaine HCl) 50mg
Tocotrienols:
---Triacontanol (polycosonol) 744mcg
---Hexacosanol (polycosonol) 33mcg
---Tetracosanol (polycosonol) 193mcg
---Octacosanol (polycosonol) 500mcg
Citrate 59mg
Fumarate 59mg
Malate 59mg
Succinate 59mg
Vegetable fiber (organic croscarmellose) 170mg
Vanilla extract (organic, antioxidant) 1mg
Contains NO: citrus, MSG, wheat, gluten, corn, starch, sugar, soy, yeast, zein, sulfate, phosphates (other than coenzymes), preservatives, casein, or other milk derivatives, GMOs.

Edited by JChief, 12 December 2011 - 12:02 AM.

[rwac]

Tocotrienols:
---Triacontanol (polycosonol) 744mcg
---Hexacosanol (polycosonol) 33mcg
---Tetracosanol (polycosonol) 193mcg
---Octacosanol (polycosonol) 500mcg

I'm confused about this, it doesn't make any sense. polycosonal != tocotrienols.

[niner]

Cyanocobalamin is converted to hydroxocobalamin in the body.

Cyanocobalamin is not converted to hydroxocobalamin. However hydroxocobalamin converts to methylcobalamin (Active form). There is a reason why hydroxocobalamin was used in Vimmortal (I'd imagine if Longecity worked on the formulation) and not cyanocobalamin nor methylcobalamin.

Cyanocobalamin has been shown to be converted to hydroxocobalamin both in vitro and in vivo. Is hydroxocobalamin better? Sure, but that doesn't mean that cyanocobalamin is some kind of useless garbage, or "toxic".

[JChief]

Cyanocobalamin is converted to hydroxocobalamin in the body.

Cyanocobalamin is not converted to hydroxocobalamin. However hydroxocobalamin converts to methylcobalamin (Active form). There is a reason why hydroxocobalamin was used in Vimmortal (I'd imagine if Longecity worked on the formulation) and not cyanocobalamin nor methylcobalamin.

Cyanocobalamin has been shown to be converted to hydroxocobalamin both in vitro and in vivo. Is hydroxocobalamin better? Sure, but that doesn't mean that cyanocobalamin is some kind of useless garbage, or "toxic".

I'm sorry but a guinea pigs study from 1967 when I just gave you several references of more current studies about the effectiveness of cyanocobalamin compared to other alternatives does not change my position. If it wasn't clear by the 70s, or even the 90s, it should be clear now: cyanocobalamin is the least effective, yet cheapest form of B12 on the market. And to clarify what I said earlier "an animal or individual is given cyanocobalamin the body removes the cyanide because it is not usable as a coenzyme and it is toxic" toxic was in reference to the cyanide being toxic and thus eliminated.

Edited by JChief, 12 December 2011 - 09:58 AM.

[JChief]

Tocotrienols:
---Triacontanol (polycosonol) 744mcg
---Hexacosanol (polycosonol) 33mcg
---Tetracosanol (polycosonol) 193mcg
---Octacosanol (polycosonol) 500mcg

I'm confused about this, it doesn't make any sense. polycosonal != tocotrienols.

Polycosanol is the generic term used for a mixture of long-chain primary aliphatic saturated alcohols. If I'm not mistaken the ones that exhibit Vitamin-E-like activity are considered tocotrienols. But that's a great question and one that deserves a more detailed answer.

I found in a biochemical journal "The retention time of the n- octacosanol was identical with that of ^3-tocotrienol. Since a-tocopherol also has the same retention time as n-octacosanol and /3-tocotrienol on the 4%-SE-30 column it was necessary to ensure that the ..." but this isn't my field of study. All I see is an association being made. I cannot view any more of the journal without purchasing to get a better frame of reference.

Edited by JChief, 12 December 2011 - 09:44 AM.

[niner]

Cyanocobalamin is converted to hydroxocobalamin in the body.

Cyanocobalamin is not converted to hydroxocobalamin. However hydroxocobalamin converts to methylcobalamin (Active form). There is a reason why hydroxocobalamin was used in Vimmortal (I'd imagine if Longecity worked on the formulation) and not cyanocobalamin nor methylcobalamin.

Cyanocobalamin has been shown to be converted to hydroxocobalamin both in vitro and in vivo. Is hydroxocobalamin better? Sure, but that doesn't mean that cyanocobalamin is some kind of useless garbage, or "toxic".

I'm sorry but a guinea pigs study from 1967 when I just gave you several references of more current studies about the effectiveness of cyanocobalamin compared to other alternatives does not change my position. If it wasn't clear by the 70s, or even the 90s, it should be clear now: cyanocobalamin is the least effective, yet cheapest form of B12 on the market. And to clarify what I said earlier "an animal or individual is given cyanocobalamin the body removes the cyanide because it is not usable as a coenzyme and it is toxic" toxic was in reference to the cyanide being toxic and thus eliminated.

Read what I wrote. You said cyanocobalamin isn't converted to hydroxocobalamin. It is. That wasn't just a guinea pig study; other species were addressed, including humans. The fact it was from 1967 doesn't change the result; it was good science. I'm not trying to claim that cyanocobalamin is "better" than hydroxocobalamin, particularly in certain obscure disease states. I am saying that it is perfectly fine as a B12 supplement for the vast majority of people. When people talk about the "toxic cyanide", the implication is that cyanocobalamin is some sort of poison. It's not.

[JChief]

Cyanocobalamin is converted to hydroxocobalamin in the body.

Cyanocobalamin is not converted to hydroxocobalamin. However hydroxocobalamin converts to methylcobalamin (Active form). There is a reason why hydroxocobalamin was used in Vimmortal (I'd imagine if Longecity worked on the formulation) and not cyanocobalamin nor methylcobalamin.

Cyanocobalamin has been shown to be converted to hydroxocobalamin both in vitro and in vivo. Is hydroxocobalamin better? Sure, but that doesn't mean that cyanocobalamin is some kind of useless garbage, or "toxic".

I'm sorry but a guinea pigs study from 1967 when I just gave you several references of more current studies about the effectiveness of cyanocobalamin compared to other alternatives does not change my position. If it wasn't clear by the 70s, or even the 90s, it should be clear now: cyanocobalamin is the least effective, yet cheapest form of B12 on the market. And to clarify what I said earlier "an animal or individual is given cyanocobalamin the body removes the cyanide because it is not usable as a coenzyme and it is toxic" toxic was in reference to the cyanide being toxic and thus eliminated.

Read what I wrote. You said cyanocobalamin isn't converted to hydroxocobalamin. It is. That wasn't just a guinea pig study; other species were addressed, including humans. The fact it was from 1967 doesn't change the result; it was good science. I'm not trying to claim that cyanocobalamin is "better" than hydroxocobalamin, particularly in certain obscure disease states. I am saying that it is perfectly fine as a B12 supplement for the vast majority of people. When people talk about the "toxic cyanide", the implication is that cyanocobalamin is some sort of poison. It's not.

Cyanocobalamin, while controversial, is not a poison. Cyanide is an acute toxin but it does not build up in the body. Given the cyanide exposure we face as it is, as you correctly pointed out, and with hydroxocobalamin being a powerful cyanide antagonist and its own other unique benefits, I would say we both agree that hydroxocobalamin supplementation is consistent with my suggestion that we reduce our exposure to toxins, eat right, and supplement as best as you can afford.

Edited by JChief, 12 December 2011 - 04:08 PM.

[hivemind]

Those quotes of quotes are really useless. Forum admin should disable them.