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Nutrients Discussion: Read Me

nutrients discussion nutrient polls vimmortal 2.0

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#1 Mind

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 11:28 PM


Here is the general thought behind designing Vimmortal: Most people here already have a good diet that covers most of the necessary nutrients the human body needs. Most low grade commercial multi-vitamins have RDA values much higher than most of us desire, in forms that might be more negative for health than positive, coming from who knows where, and probably not certified for quality and quantity.

So we developed Vimmortal for us - primarily - with a nod toward the general population as well. It was hoped that it would fit our nutritional desires as well as a bit wider market. After all, someone has to produce this product and it benefits Longecity, the Producer, and society in general if Vimmortal becomes a "hot product". Only a handful of people are going to buy a multi-vitamin that costs $100 a bottle (one month supply), even if it has all the most expensive/newest/exotic forms of our required nutrients.

Most of the ingredients of version 1.0 were standard essential vitamins and minerals, but with a bit lower RDA than most multis contain - again because most of our diets are pretty good already. We were also more forward looking on a few items like D3 and Lithium and included somewhat therapeutic doses because the research supported it then, and still does now (as far as I am aware).

I started the nutrient polling with the ingredients from Vimmortal 1.0. I will also add a couple of the nutrients that were a little iffy from the last round of polling, just in case anyone is aware of more current research the tilts the balance toward the positive. If you have any ideas of new ingredients that should be in Vimmortal please suggest them in this forum with your reason, and we can consider adding it to the polling.

One way I like to think of developing Vimmortal is to imagine that there was some major disruption in economic activity around the world, or some major disaster, and all of a sudden all of the organic veggies, fruit, protein, and generally good healthy food became very expensive and/or unavailable for a few months. It would be nice to have a 6 month or so supply of a good multi-vitamin at a reasonable cost in order to get by. It wouldn't have to contain 100% of the RDAs, but at least a little in order to plug any nutritional "holes" that developed in my diet. So I would like to create Vimmortal with at least a small amount of, and most of, the essential vitamins and minerals as well as some other nutrients that have been proven to promote good health. We did a good job of this with Vimmortal 1.0 and I hope we can make some improvements for version 2.0.

Edited by Mind, 08 February 2012 - 10:18 PM.

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#2 hbar

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 11:32 PM

What I'd like to see from Vimmortal is simple: a 3-pill max multi that provides near-100% of the RDIs of all vitamins and essential minerals. I think in a lot of ways the original Vimmortal did that, with the exception of the pill count for a full dose.

Some kind-of-random other thoughts:
  • I don't think therapeutic doses should be included for *any* substance of a multi of this type. If this multi is primarily designed for Imminst members who may already have good diets, then there should be even less of a reason for putting therapeutic doses in. For those of us who track our dietary intakes and know what we're likely deficient in, we can add additional specific supplements to target those areas (like B12, D3, etc.). And for the general population, who may be already getting more than enough of certain substances but don't know/think they are, therapeutic doses could be particularly dangerous in my opinion.
  • On the flip side, I don't think putting 50% of the RDI of a vitamin or mineral in the multi is a great idea either. I can't think off the top of my head any vitamin/mineral that would be considered dangerous at a 100% RDI level except for maybe folate (especially if it's in the wrong form), but if there is a compelling, well-documented reason to include less than the RDI, so be it. But a multi, for me, should be about making sure we aren't at risk of frank deficiencies and not much more. If you know you want more than the RDI of a specific vitamin/mineral, my view is that you should supplement it separately, not rely on getting it from a multi.
  • I'll reiterate that things like choline and lycopene should be removed, because I feel that including anything other than vitamins and essential minerals leads down the path towards a "kitchen sink" multi (like OrthoCore) that includes lots of stuff that just (obviously IMO) shouldn't be in a multi. If lycopene's in there, why not a green tea extract? And if GTE is in there, why not a red wine extract as well? Things like GTE should be stressed to be obtained from diet, not from a pill.
  • Ultimately, I do feel that Vimmortal went a little overboard in being designed for the Imminst community. The inclusion of choline (especially in such a large amount) and lithium are two substances that I think a lot of the general public would be wary of in a multi. As I mentioned in another thread, I haven't purchased Vimmortal because of the lithium, and I don't think I would purchase a newer version that had lithium in it, either. If it's a substance that's going to affect sales, no matter how good the research is behind it, my view is leave it out. The less substances you've got on the label that don't have an RDA listed, probably the better. Those of us who know about specific substances that aren't yet widely-known but have solid research behind them can take them separately, but IMO should be left out of a multi of this kind.
Anyway, just some thoughts. Very interested to see how this turns out! Haven't yet found a good alternative for me to MultiBasics, but I'm hoping Vimmortal 2.0 will be able to replace it.

#3 niner

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 12:18 AM

As I mentioned in another thread, I haven't purchased Vimmortal because of the lithium, and I don't think I would purchase a newer version that had lithium in it, either.


Why is that? Do you have an acute sensitivity to small amounts of lithium? The tiny amount of lithium in Vimmortal replicates what a lot of people consume in their tap water. While there is no RDA for lithium today, a lot of people think that in the future, there will be, and a likely value of it is the amount in Vimmortal; 1mg.
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#4 Rich D

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 03:51 AM

As it is now, I would like to see vImmortal continue to be a balanced and "scalable" supplement that can be multi-dosed 2-3 times a day. On the lower end I am thinking one capsule twice a day providing roughly 50% of the RDA. On the upper end, it could be a total of perhaps 4 capsules providing roughly 100% of the RDA depending on the nutrient. Personally, I am OK with up to 6 caps daily as the upper end recommendation. More than 6 is getting excessive for me. But, then I would be someone who generally takes the lower end dosage. Today, I take 2-4 capsules daily. If a major disaster disrupts the availability of nutritious healthy food and my sustenance is reduced to rice, potatoes, and wheat, then I will go for the 6 per day :)

Another concern is the marketability and general acceptance of the product for it to be a viable product with longevity. Choline is actively being discussed as a concern. But, I recall earlier concerns about vImmortal not having enough B vitamins. "6 capsules a day and it still doesn't provide 100% of the RDA for most of the B vitamins". This is not a concern for me. But, for many who are used to seeing B vitamins dosed at 500 to 3,000 percent (or more) of the RDA, it is a hindrance to their acceptance. Therefore, I propose that we target 100% or a little more for more of the B vitamins at the recommended upper end dosage.

#5 hbar

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 11:49 PM

As I mentioned in another thread, I haven't purchased Vimmortal because of the lithium, and I don't think I would purchase a newer version that had lithium in it, either.


Why is that? Do you have an acute sensitivity to small amounts of lithium? The tiny amount of lithium in Vimmortal replicates what a lot of people consume in their tap water. While there is no RDA for lithium today, a lot of people think that in the future, there will be, and a likely value of it is the amount in Vimmortal; 1mg.


Yes, as I mentioned in the lithium thread, I've had bad reactions to orotate in the past. I've taken the 5mg pills from Doctor's Best, and even quartering those pills (which comes out to ~1mg per dose considering the pills are hard to cut and I lost a lot in the process) I still had bad reactions. Hard to describe, but I guess you could say brain fogginess coupled with dizziness. Just really felt out of it after taking the lithium, and the effect was *very* pronounced and happened within an hour of taking it.

Again, I'm not the only one that's had reactions to orotate. I understand that 1mg may be an RDA, but for those who get that RDA from tap water, they're likely getting it in small amounts over the course of the day, not 1mg all at once. Of course you could say that for just about any supplement, but lithium is the first one I've had any kind of reaction to, and it was unpleasant enough that I would never take it again. That's why I haven't purchased Vimmortal, and why I'll continue to not purchase it as long as it has lithium in it.

I think lithium is controversial enough (maybe not in terms of the science, but peoples' reactions to it) that it simply doesn't belong in Vimmortal. Those who really want to take it and who don't have adverse reactions to orotate can continue supplementing it separately, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd steer clear of any reformulation that still has lithium in it. Just don't think it's ready for prime-time in a multi designed to be consumed by the general population and not just Imminst members.

#6 niner

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 01:26 AM

Yes, as I mentioned in the lithium thread, I've had bad reactions to orotate in the past.


I wonder if it's the lithium or the orotate? While lithium would be common in nature, I don't think orotate is. Have you ever had either lithium or orotate in different forms? For that matter, there might be something about lithium orotate specifically that is the problem; i.e., you might not see it with either lithium carbonate or magnesium orotate.

Edited by niner, 17 February 2012 - 01:38 AM.


#7 Mind

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 09:41 PM

I understand the sensitivity issue and can empathize, but from my perspective, it was really nice to have lithium in my multi. It just made it much easier. Less bottles sitting around to open up everyday. Having lithium in Vimmortal the first time around drew quite a bit of praise, so I am leaning against taking it out, but I will certainly listen to complaints. If there is a large percentage of the population with extreme lithium sensitivities, then Vimmortal would be better without.

#8 MrHappy

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:01 PM

Perhaps just not using the oratate version?



#9 Mind

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 10:37 PM

Also read here before the open discussion/voting is closed.





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