46 replies to this topic

[deeptrance]

However, the lowered dopamine was obvious for me and it did decrease my muscle mass as well. However, this only made worse some problems I already have in that department. In fact, I felt like my tendons were weakening and I was pulling things all the time. For that reason, i stopped using it.

Have you thought about using it in combination with dopaminergic agents? I take a lot of herbs and supplements that tend to raise dopamine levels and transmission (e.g., precursors, weak reversible MAO inhibitors, agonists) and I also take berberine at 300 mg 3x/day. I have had no problems such as you described. In fact I wasn't even aware of berberine lowering dopamine until I saw your post, and now I'm kind of glad that I've been taking it because there are days when I feel like I'm overdoing the dopamine so maybe it would have been even worse without the berb.

My dopaminergics:
* mucuna pruriens 4:1 extract: 2-3 grams/day
* d,l-phenylalanine: 1-2 grams/day
* rasagiline: half a mg once every few days
* n-acetyl-l-cysteine: 2-4 grams/day
* l-theanine: 600-800 mg/day
* tianeptine: 12-15 mg 2x/day
* amantadine: 100 mg/day (just added this a week ago and it's truly overkill, started making me hypomanic so I've cut the phenylalanine and rasagiline for now but am loving the amantadine!)
* catuaba 4:1 extract: 2-4 grams/day
* bacopa monnieri: 300 mg/day
* ginkgo biloba: 250 mg/day
* jiaogulan: 800-1000 mg/day
* magnolia extract: 500 mg/day
* beta-alanine: 1 gram, a few times a week

Several of the above-listed items are used by body-builders, so I would think this could be a good option for you if you want to try berberine again.

Edited by deeptrance, 17 December 2013 - 08:02 PM.

[the_apollo]

Berberine is also good for the intestines, and for infections. It is especially helpful to mucous membranes.

Berberine and related alkaloids may be anti-dopaminergic, and I think there is a controversy with regard to the findings of redan's study.


See this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm....?tool=pmcentrez.
From wikipedia:

Other studies have shown berberine to increase noradrenaline and serotonin levels in the brain (rats) while inhibiting dopaminergic activity.^[94][95]

From pubmed: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18585703

Berberine (5 mg/kg, i.p.) following its acute administration in mice resulted in increased levels of norepinephrine (31%), serotonin (47%) and dopamine (31%) in the whole brain. Chronic administration of berberine (5 mg/kg, i.p.) for 15 days significantly increased the levels of norepinephrine (29%), serotonin (19%) as well as dopamine (52%) but at higher dose (10 mg/kg, i.p.), there was no change in the norepinephrine (12%) levels but a significant increase in the serotonin (53%) and dopamine (31%) levels was found.

Berberine is actually supposed to increase Dopamine, and that pretty much as well.

[Daryl]

Very interested in Berberine... is there a preferred form?

[deeptrance]

Very interested in Berberine... is there a preferred form?

The only source of "pure" berberine I've found is a product called Yellow Gold. One tub of it goes a long way, and I'm providing it to my roommate as well as taking 600-900 mg a day myself.

[Forever21]

Anyone still on it? Im returning mine as apparently it can cause cancer.

[Captain Obvious]

Anyone still on it? Im returning mine as apparently it can cause cancer.

 

Yeah, I'm taking it. It's causing cancer according to what research?

As far as I've seen, berberine actually has some anti-cancer activity. The problem is, that a lot of that research is done by the Chinese so I'm not very confident with it.

[Nate-2004]

Unless you have some kind of source material, Berberine is not connected with any kind of cancer that I know of, though it is a very dose dependent drug. The dose makes the poison here so less is more as always.

 

I use it regularly because of its anti-tremor effects when taken with MCT oil (caprylic acid), which improves its bioavailability. Berberine has a downregulating effect on glutamate which may be the mechanism of action here. This is all the other metformin-like qualities aside here. Fair warning though, it is not as long studied as metformin, so its mechanism of action is of concern.

 

It is SUPER important NOT to take more than 500mg every 6 hrs. This is a very dose dependent supplement so avoid anyone selling doses of over 1000mg, they did not bother to read the published data around it. While its bioavailability may be low, it may still have negative effects in higher doses, these may be gut related.

 

So keep these in mind here when using berberine:

 

1. Its half-life is around 3 hours.

2. Take with a tablespoon of caprylic acid (MCT), otherwise it's very poorly absorbed and I can tell based on how small the effect on my tremor is.

3. Take no more than 500mg at any one time. Error on the side of less not more. Unfortunately taking more doesn't solve the bioavailability problem.

4. Take only every 6 hours, that's 3 per day *totaling* 1500mg at the end.

5. I source mine from BulkSupplements because otherwise it's expensive.

6. I cap them myself in the size "0" capsules. Mine range from 300mg to 500mg. Wear nitrile gloves and use a large tray, it stains carpet and hands much like curcumin.

7. As with curcumin, berberine is lipid soluble, not water soluble.

8. Take it with a meal or just after.

 

Literally all this information can be found on the examine.com page for berberine. Source materials are linked there. Here is more on tremor showing that benefits are in low dosages while higher dosages show detrimental effects in mice:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25643620

 

Edited by Nate-2004, 14 March 2018 - 07:37 PM.

[Captain Obvious]

 

I use it regularly because of its anti-tremor effects when taken with MCT oil (caprylic acid), which improves its bioavailability. 

 

 

 

Where did you get the information that MCT oil enhances the bioavailability of berberine?

[Nate-2004]

Again, see the Examine.com page. Sorry I added the links after I posted. 

 

P-glycoprotein (P-Gp) inhibitors increase absorption rate, so one of those inhibitors, at least among the more certain ones, is caprylic acid. I can verify this anecdotally as I notice its effects on my tremor when taking the MCT.  It took me a while to figure out it wasn't the MCT alone, nor the berberine alone, but both together that had such a good effect on greatly diminishing my tremor issue. The examine page merely validated my experience with it.

 

For a while I thought it was the ketogenic diet, but one of the confounding factors there was I tend to take MCT oil with my coffee and I was also taking berberine during the time that I noticed a diminished tremor. Then I thought it was the MCT oil alone, because little known fact, caprylic acid is also known as octanoic acid, which is a metabolite of 1-octanol, a chemical of interest in the treatment of essential tremor. So it turned out to be neither, when I left out berberine in my last 3 week round of keto and got no benefits to the tremor. I also tried berberine alone, no such luck. Apparently only caprylic acid with berberine is the key here and it's probably not just about the anti-tremor effects but the metformin like effects as well.

 

The measured tremor scores for berberine+MCT are significant, a drop from 130 to less than 15 in any iOS tremor app.

 

I don't foresee berberine and MCT as something neurologists are going to be "prescribing" in the future. Patient compliance with this would be pretty low considering what a hassle it is. Hopefully they can develop a better therapy based on glutamate inhibition. As far as its metformin qualities, it's easier just to take metformin if you can get it prescribed. I also happen to know that metformin is generally taken in much the same way, 500mg 3 times per day for diabetics.

Edited by Nate-2004, 14 March 2018 - 07:35 PM.

[Forever21]

https://youtu.be/7nzEHcktdEs?t=1143

 

This guy is the author behind NootropicsExpert website and the source would be in that page

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyone still on it? Im returning mine as apparently it can cause cancer.

 

Yeah, I'm taking it. It's causing cancer according to what research?

As far as I've seen, berberine actually has some anti-cancer activity. The problem is, that a lot of that research is done by the Chinese so I'm not very confident with it.

 

 

Edited by Forever21, 14 March 2018 - 08:07 PM.

[pamojja]

 

https://youtu.be/7nzEHcktdEs?t=1143

 

This guy is the author behind NootropicsExpert website and the source would be in that pag

Not really that scary:

 

 

https://nootropicsex....com/berberine/

 

Studies with animals show that Berberine could cause DNA damage promoting tumor growth. This DNA damage can be avoided by using Milk Thistle with Berberine. The radical-scavenging and antioxidant properties of the compound silymarin in Milk Thistle appears to counteract this effect.[xxxi]

 

 

Toxicol Pathol. 2011 Feb;39(2):398-409. doi: 10.1177/0192623310394211. Epub 2011 Feb 7.

Investigating the potential for toxicity from long-term use of the herbal products, goldenseal and milk thistle.

Dunnick JK¹, Singh B, Nyska A, Peckham J, Kissling GE, Sanders JM.

Author information

Abstract

Two-year toxicity studies were conducted on the widely used herbal products, goldenseal and milk thistle, in male and female F344/N rats and B6C3F1 mice. With goldenseal root powder, the primary finding was an increase in liver tumors in rats and mice, and with milk thistle extract, a decrease in spontaneous background tumors including mammary gland tumors in female rats and liver tumors in male mice. Increased tumorigenicity in rodents exposed to goldenseal root powder may be due in part to the topoisomerase inhibition properties of berberine, a major alkaloid constituent in goldenseal, or its metabolite, berberrubine. In the clinic, use of topoisomerase-inhibiting agents has been associated with secondary tumor formation and inhibition in DNA repair processes. In contrast, the radical-scavenging and antioxidant properties of silibinin and other flavonolignans in milk thistle extract may have contributed to the decrease in background tumors in rodents in the present studies. The fate of the active constituents of goldenseal and milk thistle is similar in humans and rodents; therefore, the modes of action may translate across species. Further studies are needed to extrapolate the findings to humans.

 

Full text here: http://journals.sage...192623310394211

[Nate-2004]

Milk Thistle is another alternative to caprylic acid but it's not as certain to enhance berberine, plus I'm not sure it's worth taking milk thistle all the time but if it does work just as well, then it may be worthwhile getting both in bulk and packing them together in one cap in whatever ratio is good.

[Forever21]

But why risk it guys? This is longevity we're talking about and cancer is still cancer to this day. It's not like a rash or acne.

[pamojja]

But why risk it guys? This is longevity we're talking about and cancer is still cancer to this day. It's not like a rash or acne.

 

Exactly. Don't risk it by using higher doses as usually used. The dose makes the poison.

 

 

The doses of milk thistle extract and goldenseal root powder used in these studies were generally higher than exposure in humans for the treatment of a variety of diseases (Figure 3; Table 2 footnotes).

Be it water or berberine.

[Captain Obvious]

But why risk it guys? This is longevity we're talking about and cancer is still cancer to this day. It's not like a rash or acne.

 

It's certainly good to be aware of the possibility but without knowing the details of the (single) study, it's impossible to know if the results would even theoretically apply to humans at normal doses.

Again, see the Examine.com page. Sorry I added the links after I posted. 

 

P-glycoprotein (P-Gp) inhibitors increase absorption rate, so one of those inhibitors, at least among the more certain ones, is caprylic acid. I can verify this anecdotally as I notice its effects on my tremor when taking the MCT.  It took me a while to figure out it wasn't the MCT alone, nor the berberine alone, but both together that had such a good effect on greatly diminishing my tremor issue. The examine page merely validated my experience with it.

 

 

Thanks for the information! I'm already taking curcumin and berberine together with bioperine and milk thistle, but will consider adding MCT oil to the equation.

[Forever21]

That also goes for the benefits right?

 

Without human testing, we can't really have confidence that it is a nootropics.

 

 

 

But why risk it guys? This is longevity we're talking about and cancer is still cancer to this day. It's not like a rash or acne.

 

It's certainly good to be aware of the possibility but without knowing the details of the (single) study, it's impossible to know if the results would even theoretically apply to humans at normal doses.

Again, see the Examine.com page. Sorry I added the links after I posted. 

 

P-glycoprotein (P-Gp) inhibitors increase absorption rate, so one of those inhibitors, at least among the more certain ones, is caprylic acid. I can verify this anecdotally as I notice its effects on my tremor when taking the MCT.  It took me a while to figure out it wasn't the MCT alone, nor the berberine alone, but both together that had such a good effect on greatly diminishing my tremor issue. The examine page merely validated my experience with it.

 

 

Thanks for the information! I'm already taking curcumin and berberine together with bioperine and milk thistle, but will consider adding MCT oil to the equation.

 

 

[Nate-2004]

It's a minimal risk in low doses, probably more risk in riding my bike to work. It is currently one of the only effective ways to treat essential tremor, so I'm gonna stick with it.