62 replies to this topic

[Turnbuckle]

Although the joint pain/tendonitis symptoms was manageable and didn't bother me, in hindsight I *think* the resveratrol somehow worsened my joints when I exercised.

The way I see it, exercise is far more important than resveratrol, so if they conflict, drop the resveratrol. I found the same thing with statins. They did reduce my cholesterol but also made me feel like I was about to die. Since the benefits of cholesterol reduction are debatable anyway, I dropped it.

[kenj]

The way I see it, exercise is far more important than resveratrol, so if they conflict, drop the resveratrol. I found the same thing with statins. They did reduce my cholesterol but also made me feel like I was about to die. Since the benefits of cholesterol reduction are debatable anyway, I dropped it.

Absolutely. But, the curious me would just like to *know* what's causing the joint pain in some individuals, as I don't think (for some) it can be solved by "just" taking Vitamin D, unfortunately.

[gizmobrain]

Definitely have been seeing a mild headache and stiff hands with the PDE4 inhibitor stack. Wonder if it's copper chelation (which someone previously had said resveratrol is weak in this area), or something else.

Though, I did find something interesting that makes me want to fix this problem without discontinuing my stack:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2695611/

Namely, that PDE4 inhibitors also decrease mucus secretion. I've always said that my cognitive function is inversely proportional to the amount of mucus in my head. I've always wondered which was the chicken, and which was the egg.

[niner]

Namely, that PDE4 inhibitors also decrease mucus secretion. I've always said that my cognitive function is inversely proportional to the amount of mucus in my head. I've always wondered which was the chicken, and which was the egg.

Head congestion can really mess with cognitive function, and can mimic some symptoms of depression. I'd advise getting to the bottom of the congestion problem, which is likely to be an allergy to one or more substances, if it's not an infection. The best way to address frequent congestion is to see an allergist. Getting my allergies under control was life altering.

[abelard lindsay]

Ok here's the Isochroma like rant I was telling you about -> The good PDE4 inhibition results I've gotten involved time slowing down as if my perception started going faster than 24fps, like you know when you watch a camera on slow motion and you see the individual frames... like that. The movie was playing at 24fps but my brain was processing faster than that. Also being able to see intense detail in everyday objects, and getting scores over 7000 on Lumosity.com brain shift and perfect games on Lumosity.com memory match. Unfortunately, It's a difficult effect to get consistently. I only used resveratrol, luteolin (from Now artichoke extract), forskolin and caffeine. Catuaba is part of my stack and perhaps that may have some pde4 or cAMP activity but I have no scientific evidence for that. I never got any mucous effects, headaches or stiff hands. Maybe it's the rosemary and berberine in your stack that's doing that? Note: This effect doesn't happen as strong as I'd like every time and the stack can make me a bit jumpy and anxious if I start taking more than I normally do. I suspect mega doses of this stack would cause bad things to happen so please don't overdo it. This is mainly why I've been a bit cagey about hyping it too much.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 20 March 2012 - 03:38 AM.

[gizmobrain]

Interesting... I skipped the resveratol today, and had a very nice day. No stiffness or headache. Even was able to get through the day without relying on hard stimulants. I had a cup of black tea, and but no ephedrine.

I took rosemary, artichoke, biopqq, coq10, Forskolin, and Piracetam.

I'll try to figure this resveratol issue out...

[smithx]

I stopped taking resveratrol when I realized that none of my connective tissue injuries were healing.

After over a year off it, when my pain from things like a partially torn achilles tendon had resolved, I went back on resveratrol. Within a few days, the pain returned, so I went off it.

That was about 2 years ago. I just went back on for a few days because I was traveling to an area that could have a higher than usual radiation level, and there is some evidence that resveratrol could be beneficial.

Sure enough, the tendon started aching again within 3 days of starting 500mg/d of 99% resveratrol. I had to discontinue it again.

[maxwatt]

Resveratrol does inhibit angiogenesis which could slow healing of poorly venatated tissue such as tendons. I wonder it those who complain of tendon pain ever stretch as well as exercise? That would perhaps elinimate the micro tears from exercise that occurs it tendons, especially achilles tendon, are too tight, If the micro-tears do not heal, they become full-fledged tendinitis.

[smithx]

I stretch every day, because I tend to get plantar fasciitis if I don't stretch.

[shaggy]

I stretch every day, because I tend to get plantar fasciitis if I don't stretch.

Funny as I always credit resveratrol with curing my plantar fasciitis. I suffered terribly then a couple of months after starting resveratrol, hey presto, no more pain. Only thing I had added to my regime, so always thought it was the resveratrols anti -inflammatory effects.

[maxwatt]

Res has very strong anti-inflammatory effects via P53 inhibition. It cured, or at least greatly reduced, my own hallux rigidus a painful arthritic inflammation that immobilized my big toe, as well as giving me back full use of my fingers. I've corresponded with a surgeon who credits resveratrol with giving him back the use of arthritic his thumb so he could operate again. Several people say it has fixed their "trigger fingers", a condition where a finger joint would stick, not bend without manipulation. I also experienced tendinitis several months after using resveratrol, which resolved upon vitamin D3 implementation and a slight reduction in dosage. Most of the other cases of tendinitis seem to have resolved with concomitant use of D3. smithx is an exception; do you stretch the Achilles tendon with the "hands-on-the-wall leg stretched-in-back foot-flat" stretch that is the classic treatment of Achilles tendinitis (that, plus ice and NSAIDs)?????

[smithx]

I do three stretches:

- on my knees with toes bent (foot stretch)
- against the wall with knee straight (calf stretch)
- against the wall with knee bent (tendon stretch)

I don't see how inhibiting angiogenesis could cause tendon pain to return in a matter of days. What would be the mechanism?

[maxwatt]

Micro-tears from stress are the precursor to tendonitis. If they heal quickly enough there is noswelling. Healing comes about faster, the more blood is supplied to the tissue. Tendons do not have many capillaries to bring blood to the tissue, unlike muscle, but they do develop locally and quickly in tissue where there are injuries that require healing. If this is inhibited, as resveratrol might do, it would allow tendinitis to develop where otherwise it wouldn't. It's a bit of a stretch, but possible. Several years ago, some athletes were found to be using Actevegin,, a synthetic VegF manufactured in Sweden that induces angiogenesis, to speed healing after strenuous efforts. Maybe it was the placebo effect, or maybe their coach knew what he was doing. Anyway, it's the only explanation I can think of for the symptoms you've described. Sorry vitamin D didn't work out for you.

[gizmobrain]

Just to chime in again about the muscle issue...

I work at UPS as a package unloader (i.e. I damage my muscles/tendons nightly). Resveratol severely compromises my bodies ability to heal. Any day that I take it, my hands, knees and shoulders hurt all day after working. On days that I don't take it, I feel fine by the next morning.

Because of this, I've had to discontinue using it.

If anybody makes any headway on how to get around this issue (without blocking the good effects of Resveratol), I will try it again. If you say stretching... well, thanks for the advice, but I stretch less than I floss, and the dentist has been telling me to do that for years.

I don't know if this helps anyone, but I had some blood drawn a few years back to check for the genetic markers of RA, and they came back negative.

Edited by zrbarnes, 14 April 2012 - 04:26 AM.

[bixbyte]

Just to chime in again about the muscle issue...

I work at UPS as a package unloader (i.e. I damage my muscles/tendons nightly). Resveratol severely compromises my bodies ability to heal. Any day that I take it, my hands, knees and shoulders hurt all day after working. On days that I don't take it, I feel fine by the next morning.

Because of this, I've had to discontinue using it.

If anybody makes any headway on how to get around this issue (without blocking the good effects of Resveratol), I will try it again. If you say stretching... well, thanks for the advice, but I stretch less than I floss, and the dentist has been telling me to do that for years.

I don't know if this helps anyone, but I had some blood drawn a few years back to check for the genetic markers of RA, and they came back negative.

Hi,
I have recently supplemented with small doses of CoQ10 when I have those muscle aches and pains.
While using my daily dose of Resveratrol when I experienced those sudden joint pains that my MD diagnosed as Sciatica. I just started taking Six X 30 miligrams CoQ10 one capsules every hour X 6 caps.
I am pleased to announce my pains are not as severe.
TRY CoQ10 while on Resveratrol and tell me if your pains go away or improve.

Edited by bixbyte, 14 April 2012 - 02:52 PM.

[maxwatt]

The classic prescription for muscular aches and pains is aspirin. If that or other NSAIDs help, the issue is probably inflammation. If you take resveratrol in the morning, you could try taking it at night instead, and vice-versa. IF taking resveratrol in the evening, you might want to use low dose melatonin (300 to 600 mg) at bedtime to keep your biological clock in time ... resveratrol stimulates the CLK genes effectively resetting your body's clock.

Taking myricetin at night might help, some of its effects counter those of resveratrol, though not all. This is guesswork on my part at this point, but my impression on alternating myricetin and resveratrol at 12 hour intervals, is that it might improve healing without compromising the endurance gained from resveratrol. I say might, too few samples for certainty.

[gizmobrain]

Hi,
I have recently supplemented with small doses of CoQ10 when I have those muscle aches and pains.
While using my daily dose of Resveratrol when I experienced those sudden joint pains that my MD diagnosed as Sciatica. I just started taking Six X 30 miligrams CoQ10 one capsules every hour X 6 caps.
I am pleased to announce my pains are not as severe.
TRY CoQ10 while on Resveratrol and tell me if your pains go away or improve.

I've been taking 2x100mg Doctor's Best High Absorption CoQ10 with my eggs and Selegiline every morning after work. It might have been helping a bit, but I haven't tried resveratrol without CoQ10 to see if it's any worse.

I'm wondering if it's better to split the dosage up with CoQ10. I remember reading something about that, but I don't remember what it was.

The classic prescription for muscular aches and pains is aspirin. If that or other NSAIDs help, the issue is probably inflammation. If you take resveratrol in the morning, you could try taking it at night instead, and vice-versa. IF taking resveratrol in the evening, you might want to use low dose melatonin (300 to 600 mg) at bedtime to keep your biological clock in time ... resveratrol stimulates the CLK genes effectively resetting your body's clock.

Taking myricetin at night might help, some of its effects counter those of resveratrol, though not all. This is guesswork on my part at this point, but my impression on alternating myricetin and resveratrol at 12 hour intervals, is that it might improve healing without compromising the endurance gained from resveratrol. I say might, too few samples for certainty.

I usually take a low dose (81mg) aspirin before bed. Before I had figured out that resveratrol was the source of my problem, I had been knocking back 2 or 3 Naproxen (Aleve) throughout the day. Because NSAIDs tend to cause other issues in the body when taken regularly, I figured that I should probably cut back the resveratrol instead of taking pain killers all the time.

It's been a couple weeks since I last tried taking resveratrol, but if I remember right, Naproxen didn't totally knock out all the pain. It seems like my hands would still hurt. I don't know what that would imply. It also did seem to be mostly in the joints and tendons. The muscles in my back and arms seemed a little more sore than usual, but usually would feel alright if I took something anti-inflammatory like Ashwagandha or Skullcap.

300 to 600 mg of Melatonin? Is that supposed to be mcg? I take 6mg nightly.

I'll check into myricetin. Its one of the few supplements that I've not yet tried or researched in any way.

Edited by zrbarnes, 14 April 2012 - 04:51 PM.

[maxwatt]

right, Micrograms. My bad. Doses over a gram bring melatonin blood levels very quickly to supranatural peaks, which drop quickly to abnormally low levels before morning, usually in the middle of the night. This is why many find they wake up far too early with 3 and 5 gram doses, the most common sizes sold.

[smithx]

TRY CoQ10 while on Resveratrol and tell me if your pains go away or improve.

When I've felt these, apparently resveratrol-caused pains, I've always been taking at least 60mg and up to 200mg of CoQ10 a day.

[malden]

The way I see it, exercise is far more important than resveratrol, so if they conflict, drop the resveratrol. I found the same thing with statins. They did reduce my cholesterol but also made me feel like I was about to die. Since the benefits of cholesterol reduction are debatable anyway, I dropped it.

Absolutely. But, the curious me would just like to *know* what's causing the joint pain in some individuals, as I don't think (for some) it can be solved by "just" taking Vitamin D, unfortunately.

I think its because ist hase anti estrogen properties, estrogen lubricates the joints.
its a well know fenomenen op bodybuidling forum whey you lower estrogen with sups or meds, the same can be sad fore grape seed exstrakt

[maxwatt]

The way I see it, exercise is far more important than resveratrol, so if they conflict, drop the resveratrol. I found the same thing with statins. They did reduce my cholesterol but also made me feel like I was about to die. Since the benefits of cholesterol reduction are debatable anyway, I dropped it.

Absolutely. But, the curious me would just like to *know* what's causing the joint pain in some individuals, as I don't think (for some) it can be solved by "just" taking Vitamin D, unfortunately.

I think its because ist hase anti estrogen properties, estrogen lubricates the joints.
its a well know fenomenen op bodybuidling forum whey you lower estrogen with sups or meds, the same can be sad fore grape seed exstrakt

v

Yes, which is why vitamin D3 [ usually] eliminates such joint and tendon pains with resveratrol. When anti-aromatases that prevent conversion of testosterone to estrogen are given to reduce bone loss in women, the same joint/tendon pains can appear. The medical treatment is supplementation with D3.

smithx: I know you take vitamin D3, I forget how much. But have you measured your D25-hydroxy blood levels? I'd vbe curious to know what they are, as your pain does not resolve with D3. Just another data point.

Also, aches and pains like these can be symptomatic of a number of diseases, such as fibromylagia, lupus, thyroid gland failure and others. The first two are not so likely, but thyroid insufficiency might be involved; excessive tiredness is another symptom. How this might interact with resveratrol is an unknown. Have you had a thyroid panel?

[kenj]

Resv also slow down healing in me drastically, - years ago I fell on my bike and it was like I could "control" the healing process with resv; taking it delayed the healing it seemed.
These days I'm on resv and high dose pterostilbene (200mg+), and it anecdotally seems to slow down recovery from aerobic exercises (no effect on anaerobic AFACT), but I have no current tendonitis symptoms, thankfully. Maybe adding high dose 5-MTHF (biologically active folate) helped in this regard?
Vit D seemed to have no effect as I have mentioned before.

BTW; the resv/ptero combo works wonders when occasionally dealing with a higher caloric intake, FWIW.

[hav]

I had pretty severe arthritis, muscle cramping, and tendonitis before I started taking resveratrol a few years ago. Resveratrol really helped with the arthritis. Together with taking nsaids daily. Originally tried boosting potassium by eating a banana a day to ease the muscle cramps. That helped a little. Switching to D3 was much better. 2000 iu a day does it for me. The tendonitis took longer to get under control. What worked for me was stacking gse and pine bark with the resveratrol which I cycle weekly. 75mg each 2x a day for 300 mg per day total between the two. On alternate weeks I take 450 mg of gotu kola per day. This worked so well I was able to cut the nsaids back to maybe once every 2 or 3 weeks if I start feeling continued sensitivity in my foot, knee, or hip joints when working out. Been thinking for ditching the nsaids completely in favor of bromelain which I understand has the advantage of putting less stress on the liver.

Howard

[Anthony_Loera]

Guys,

I have been recently on 4 to 6 grams of micronized resveratrol a day since April 6, no issues at all.

I have been taking a different regimen of vitamins which includes 10,000 iu of Vitamin D, so it is certainly possible that may be preventing things from going out of whack... but I also remind folks that I never suffered from any issues when I was taking 2 grams a day... and at that time I took no Vitamin D supplements.

Cheers
A

[smithx]

smithx: I know you take vitamin D3, I forget how much. But have you measured your D25-hydroxy blood levels? I'd vbe curious to know what they are, as your pain does not resolve with D3. Just another data point.

Also, aches and pains like these can be symptomatic of a number of diseases, such as fibromylagia, lupus, thyroid gland failure and others. The first two are not so likely, but thyroid insufficiency might be involved; excessive tiredness is another symptom. How this might interact with resveratrol is an unknown. Have you had a thyroid panel?

I have had a thyroid panel recently and it was all normal.

My vitamin D25 was tested last week, and was 33ng/mL.

[brunotto]

Using 600 mg/day PDE4 inhibitor Pentoxyphyline and in the future -maybe- PDE4 inhibitor Apremilast... really good antiflammaory effect with added kidney/brain/liver benefits... in my case only to be taken on empty stomach (otherwise I get nausea)... not to be taken late... maximal at 5 pm.

http://en.wikipedia..../Pentoxifylline

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22257911

Edited by brunotto, 23 April 2012 - 12:28 PM.

[brunotto]

<sub>Sensitization of cervix cancer cells to Adriamycin by Pentoxifylline induces an increase in apoptosis and decrease senescence...

Background: Chemotherapeutic drugs like Adriamycin (ADR) induces apoptosis or senescence in cancer cells but these cells often develop resistance and generate responses of short duration or complete failure. The methylxantine drug Pentoxifylline (PTX) used routinely in the clinics setting for circulatory diseases has been recently described to have antitumor properties. We evaluated whether pretreatment with PTX modifies apoptosis and senescence induced by ADR in cervix cancer cells. Methods: HeLa (HPV 18+), SiHa (HPV 16+) cervix cancer cells and non-tumorigenic immortalized HaCaT cells (control) were treated with PTX, ADR or PTX + ADR. The cellular toxicity of PTX and survival fraction were determinated by WST-1 and clonogenic assay respectively. Apoptosis, caspase activation and ADR efflux rate were measured by flow cytometry, senescence by microscopy. IκBα and DNA fragmentation were determinated by ELISA. Proapoptotic, antiapoptotic and senescence genes, as well as HPV-E6/E7 mRNA expression, were detected by time real RT-PCR. p53 protein levels were assayed by Western blot. Results: PTX is toxic (WST-1), affects survival (clonogenic assay) and induces apoptosis in cervix cancer cells. Additionally, the combination of this drug with ADR diminished the survival fraction and significantly increased apoptosis of HeLa and SiHa cervix cancer cells. Treatments were less effective in HaCaT cells. We found caspase participation in the induction of apoptosis by PTX, ADR or its combination. Surprisingly, in spite of the antitumor activity displayed by PTX, our results indicate that methylxantine, per se does not induce senescence; however it inhibits senescence induced by ADR and at the same time increases apoptosis. PTX elevates IκBα levels. Such sensitization is achieved through the up-regulation of proapoptotic factors such as caspase and bcl family gene expression. PTX and PTX + ADR also decrease E6 and E7 expression in SiHa cells, but not in HeLa cells. p53 was detected only in SiHa cells treated with ADR.

Conclusion: PTX is a good inducer of apoptosis but does not induce senescence. Furthermore, PTX reduced the ADR-induced senescence and increased apoptosis in cervix cancer cells.

http://www.mendeley....ase-senescence/</sub>

[brunotto]

Pentoxifylline decreases oxidized lipid products in nonalcoholic steatohepatitis: New evidence on the potential therapeutic mechanism

Background: Pentoxifylline (PTX) improved histological features of nonalcoholic steatohepatitis (NASH) in a recent randomized placebo-controlled trial. However, the underlying mechanism responsible for the beneficial effects of PTX in NASH remains unidentified. A key role of lipid oxidation in the pathogenesis and progression of NASH has been established. PTX is known to decrease free-radical mediated oxidative stress and inhibit lipid oxidation. The primary aim of this study was to evaluate the effects of PTX on levels of lipid oxidation products in patients with NASH. Methods: Levels of multiple structurally specific oxidized fatty acids including hydroxy-octadecadenoic acids (HODEs), oxi-octadecadenoic acids (oxoODEs), and hydroxy-eicosatetraenoic acids (HETEs) were quantified by mass spectrometry in plasma obtained at baseline and at study completion in patients who completed 1 year of therapy with PTX or placebo in a randomized controlled trial. Results: Therapy with PTX resulted in significant decreases on 9-HODE and 13-oxoODE, oxidized lipid products of linoleic acid (LA) linked to histological severity in NAFLD. Similarly, PTX therapy was associated with significant decreases in 8-HETE, 9-HETE, and 11-HETE compared to placebo. Statistically significant correlations were demonstrated between the decrease in HODEs and oxoODEs and improved histological scores of fibrosis; and between the decrease in HETEs and improved lobular inflammation. Conclusion: Therapy with PTX compared to placebo was associated with a significant reduction of oxidized fatty acids. This novel evidence supports that the beneficial effects of PTX in patients with NASH are likely partly mediated through decreasing lipid oxidation, largely free-radical mediated lipid oxidation. Additionally, this is the first report on the link between decreased oxidized lipid products and improved histological disease in the setting of a therapeutic trial in NASH. (HEPATOLOGY 2012

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22505276

[brunotto]

NOTE !!! IMHO PTX is not good for TH2 problems like Lupus or Asthma... IMHO it works well for TH1 problems like psoriasis.

[brunotto]

Effect of pentoxifylline on fracture healing: an experimental study.

Aydin K, Sahin V, Gürsu S, Mercan AS, Demir B, Yildirim T.

Source

Department of Orthopedics and Traumatology, Baltalimani Metin Sabanci Bone and Joint Diseases Education and Research Hospital, İstanbul, Turkey. bkaydin@yahoo.com

Abstract

OBJECTIVES:

This study aims to investigate the effect of pentoxifylline on fracture healing in an experimental animal model.
MATERIALS AND METHODS:

Sixty-one male, Wistar-Albino rats were divided randomly into two groups as the pentoxifylline and control groups. Standard, closed femoral shaft fractures were established in all rats using a three-point bending device under general anesthesia. The rats were administered either pentoxifylline or isotonic NaCl injections everyday, beginning after production of fracture until they were sacrificed. Ten rats (11 rats in the pentoxifylline group on the 14(th) day) in each group were sacrificed on the 7(th), 14(th) and the 21(st) days and clinical, radiological, and histological examinations were performed to evaluate bony union.
RESULTS:

Radiological evaluation of callus did not reveal any significant difference between the control and the pentoxifylline groups in the first, second and the third weeks. However histological callus formation was significantly superior in pentoxifylline group compared to the control group at the end of the first week and callus formation was better in the control group in the third week.
CONCLUSION:

Pentoxifylline can be used to accelerate fracture union in early phases. Because of its hematological effects pentoxifylline accelerates the hematoma stage of fracture healing. But it inhibits fracture union in the later stages, presumably due to its anti-inflammatory effect. This should be taken into consideration during the clinical use of this drug.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22085352