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IS THERE EVIDENCE FOR ATHEISM?

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#1441 Duchykins

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 09:07 PM

"In spacetime everything desired is real in the four dimensional universe which we desire. "

You need to be more careful with your just-so universal absolutes.

What you said looks self refuting at face value. When you dig a little deeper it looks circular. When you go deeper still, it looks like some fanciful invention of a theist.

Looks aside, when you actually analyze it your whole argument is nonsensical.

#1442 Duchykins

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 09:13 PM

In any case, I have longed for an Earth without any creationists on it. Yet it does not exist except in my mind.

#1443 shadowhawk

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 09:19 PM

In any case, I have longed for an Earth without any creationists on it. Yet it does not exist except in my mind.

The Earth exists, Creationists exist and empty space exists.  Your desire is made up of real things.

 



#1444 Vardarac

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 09:21 PM

 

The Earth exists, Creationists exist and empty space exists.  Your desire is made up of real things.

 

 

And as I pointed out, life exists, companionship exists, and understanding exist, but none of these things mean that God exists.
 



#1445 shadowhawk

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 09:22 PM



#1446 shadowhawk

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 09:25 PM

 

 

The Earth exists, Creationists exist and empty space exists.  Your desire is made up of real things.

 

 

And as I pointed out, life exists, companionship exists, and understanding exist, but none of these things mean that God exists.
 

 

You can't think of something that truly does not exist in any way.



#1447 Vardarac

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 09:33 PM

 

 

 

The Earth exists, Creationists exist and empty space exists.  Your desire is made up of real things.

 

 

And as I pointed out, life exists, companionship exists, and understanding exist, but none of these things mean that God exists.
 

 

You can't think of something that truly does not exist in any way.

 

 

Right, that's what I said. The idea of God might have its roots in reality, but those roots needn't be in the actual existence of the being God, but rather of the existence of real beings as an imagined panacea to real problems, like death, loneliness, or feeling as though your actions have left a negative impact in the world.

 

The original concepts find themselves somewhere in reality, but the ultimate desire is fanciful, much beyond those.



#1448 shadowhawk

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 09:51 PM

So you say by your expression of faith.  God is real and we desire Him just like everything else we desire.



#1449 Vardarac

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 10:02 PM

Even if billions of people truly desired God - for which I think you'd be hard-pressed to provide evidence, because religious adherence says nothing at all about the nuances of someone's desires or the degrees thereof - That's still not universal, and there would be no reason to believe they wanted anything more than a good idea that was born out of imagination applied to real things that are not God.

 

There is no faith necessary to point out the potential ambiguities in what is "real" and what is "desired" in the premises of your argument. I'm merely pointing out how it doesn't at all constitute an evidence of God.



#1450 shadowhawk

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 11:07 PM

Even if billions of people truly desired God - for which I think you'd be hard-pressed to provide evidence, because religious adherence says nothing at all about the nuances of someone's desires or the degrees thereof - That's still not universal, and there would be no reason to believe they wanted anything more than a good idea that was born out of imagination applied to real things that are not God.

 

There is no faith necessary to point out the potential ambiguities in what is "real" and what is "desired" in the premises of your argument. I'm merely pointing out how it doesn't at all constitute an evidence of God.

 

I do not think it would be at all difficult to show many billions of people desiring God.  The argument does not say any desire has to be universal for the object desired to be real.  What they desire is God.  We desire real things and can't even think of something that has no basis in reality.  You haven't demonstrated you can.
 



#1451 The Brain

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 11:12 PM

If god were real, wouldn't we know ......

#1452 shadowhawk

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 11:12 PM

The Argument from Desire
 
Handbook%2Bof%2BChristian%2BApologetics.

Here is an interesting argument that I read in Peter Kreeft and Ronald K. Tacelli's Pocket Handbook of Christian Apologetics.

1. Every natural, innate desire in us corresponds to some real object that can satisfy that desire.

2. But there exists in us an innate desire which nothing in time, nothing on earth, no creature can satisfy.

3. Therefore there must exist something more than time, earth and creatures that can satisfy this desire.

4. This something is what people call "God" and "life with God forever." [1]

They go on to explain:

The first premise implies a distinction of desires into two kinds: innate and externally conditioned, or natural and artificial.  We naturally desire things like food, drink, sex, sleep, knowledge, friendship, and beauty; and we naturally shun things like starvation, loneliness, ignorance and ugliness.  We also desire (but not innately or naturally) things like sports cars, political office, flying through the air like Superman, the land of Oz and a Red Sox world championship.

Now there are differences between these two kinds of desires.  For example, we do not, for the most part, recognize corresponding states of deprivation for the second, the artificial, desires as we do for the first.  There is no word like Ozlessness parallel to sleeplessness.  But more important, the natural desires come from within, from our nature, while the artificial ones come from without, from society, advertising or fiction.  This second difference is the reason for a third difference: the natural desires are found in all of us, but the artificial ones vary from person to person.

The existence of the artificial desires does not necessarily mean that the desired objects exist.  Some do; some don't.  Sports cards do; Oz does not.  But the existence of natural desires does, in every discoverable case, mean that the objects desired exist.  No one has ever found one case of an innate desire for a nonexistent object.

The second premise requires only honest introspection.  If someone denies it and says, "I am perfectly happy playing with mud pies, or sports cars, or money, or sex, of power," we can only ask, "Are you, really?"  But we can only appeal, we cannot compel.  And we can refer such a person to the nearly universal testimony of human history in all its great literature.  Even the atheist Jean-Paul Sartre admitted that "there comes a time when one asks, even of Shakespeare, even of Beethoven, 'is that all there is?'"

C.S. Lewis, who uses this argument in a number of places, summarizes it succinctly:

Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for these desires exists.  A baby feels hunger; well, there is such a thing as food.  A duckling want sot swim; well, there is such a thing as water.  Men feel sexual desire; well, there is such a thing as sex.  If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world. (Mere Christianity, bk. 3, chap. 10) [2]



#1453 Vardarac

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 11:13 PM

I do not think it would be at all difficult to show many billions of people desiring God.  The argument does not say any desire has to be universal for the object desired to be real.  What they desire is God.  We desire real things and can't even think of something that has no basis in reality.  You haven't demonstrated you can.

 

Let me try another example: Economically viable fusion power. Or even better, cold fusion. Fusion has its roots in reality, but there are clearly components to the desire for this power that are imaginary, or at the very least have not been demonstrated versus the components that have, like the act of fusion itself. The desire to form a relationship with God could as easily (or in my mind, far more easily) point to a basis in demonstrated people and situations rather than it does to a basis in a supernatural being, an invisible man. Do you understand what I'm trying to say?



#1454 shadowhawk

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 11:15 PM

If god were real, wouldn't we know ......

 

Who is "we?"  Many do know.
 



#1455 shadowhawk

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 01:11 AM

 

I do not think it would be at all difficult to show many billions of people desiring God.  The argument does not say any desire has to be universal for the object desired to be real.  What they desire is God.  We desire real things and can't even think of something that has no basis in reality.  You haven't demonstrated you can.

 

Let me try another example: Economically viable fusion power. Or even better, cold fusion. Fusion has its roots in reality, but there are clearly components to the desire for this power that are imaginary, or at the very least have not been demonstrated versus the components that have, like the act of fusion itself. The desire to form a relationship with God could as easily (or in my mind, far more easily) point to a basis in demonstrated people and situations rather than it does to a basis in a supernatural being, an invisible man. Do you understand what I'm trying to say?

 

 

Fusion is real and we can desire it but that does not mean we understand it correctly.  That we do not understand it correctly does not mean it is not real.  People desire God not your construct which is not God.  Using your logic you coujd make a case for nothing to be real because it is simply  a psychological construct for something else.  It is in your mind.
 



#1456 Vardarac

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 01:19 AM

Fusion is real and we can desire it but that does not mean we understand it correctly.  That we do not understand it correctly does not mean it is not real.  People desire God not your construct which is not God.  Using your logic you coujd make a case for nothing to be real because it is simply  a psychological construct for something else.  It is in your mind.

 

I still think you don't understand what I'm saying. All you have really established is that there is some real thing, which I will call root X, from which desire Y springs. I am saying that the real thing X can be not Y, despite the desire being Y. I don't think I can explain it more simply than this.


Edited by Vardarac, 01 August 2015 - 01:22 AM.


#1457 shadowhawk

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 01:32 AM

so you claim you can desire something that has no basis in reality.  I ask you what?



#1458 Vardarac

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 01:34 AM

No, that is not what I claim. I am claiming that the desire for thing A can have real roots in thing B, which is not thing A. Thing A = Thing B + imagination.



#1459 shadowhawk

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 01:42 AM

can thing B have its real roots in thing C which has its roots in thing D and so on.  Soon nothing is real because it could be something else.  Is that the way you are going to get rid of God whom the vast majority desire?



#1460 Vardarac

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 01:55 AM

My aim isn't to disprove God with this discussion, merely to show that the argument doesn't provide support for God because it is using smoke and mirrors, a leap in logic, to do so - even if you accept the premises.

 

If a person desires thing B, it may have roots in itself, thing B rather than thing C, because thing B is actually real - a fact that can be cross-confirmed with direct observation, and which observation makes the need for the argument from desire for its existence moot.

 

Food, for example. If a person desires Ambrosia, the food of the gods, that is thing A. Food itself is thing B. If the desirer wants mere mortals' food, thing B, thing B can still have real roots in thing B. You could say the same for God, but you are back at square one, because you still need to explain how God is like food in terms of realness. Merely desiring God is not enough because, as I have shown, desiring Ambrosia can have its roots in food and still not be real; it has entirely not-real properties or components.


Edited by Vardarac, 01 August 2015 - 02:37 AM.


#1461 shadowhawk

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 03:42 AM

So we can see by observation the effects of God in peoples lives.  Humanity as a whole overwhelmingly testifies to it.  Like food there is a desire for the spiritual.  Unlike food it is not physical.  This is an argument from desire regardless of the object.  That there is a desire, argues for the existence of the thing desired.  That is the extent and power of the argument from desire.  Don't ask for the spiritual to have the same properties as the physical.  It is the very fact of the desire which is the power of this argument.



#1462 Vardarac

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 04:14 AM

I won't get into the argument from behavior, since that opens an entirely different can of worms and basically suffers from the same problem as your other arguments from God: They can all be explained just as easily, or more easily, without the need for God to actually exist.

 

That there is a desire is not a support for the thing desired necessarily. Have you tried asking someone who agrees that God is important to them, why it's important for them to have God in their lives?

 

If a person eats, their hunger will be sated.

If a person has sex, their lust will be sated.

If a person knows God, then...

Do they cease to be lonely?

Do they have peace in knowing their purpose?

Do they have someone who finally understands them?

Do they have the assurance that they will live forever, along with their loved ones and an ultimate good?

 

 

All of these desires correspond to the fulfillment of needs for real things.

We are social, survival-minded beasts. We need companionship. We need understanding. We need life.

 

The ambiguity in your argument stems from the fact that the desire for God could be in God's existence... Or in nothing more than the idealized version of people and situations that fulfill these needs. A lover that never ages or dies is not real, yet she would keep us from being lonely. An ideal set of instructions to bring a world that would perfectly suit our needs and desires would give us purpose. A perfectly psychic person could understand and comfort us. Immortality would give us the security of long life and the assurance of love and companionship with our families and friends who join us in it.

 

God can be as simple as a catch-all to a number of other desires we have, programmed in us not by a design for an otherworldly existence, but as the ultimate expression of desires that came about due to the nature of our worldly existence.

 

How many of these people literally desire a disembodied, all-powerful creator being, for its own sake? Have you asked them?


Edited by Vardarac, 01 August 2015 - 04:34 AM.


#1463 Duchykins

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 06:46 AM

 

In any case, I have longed for an Earth without any creationists on it. Yet it does not exist except in my mind.

The Earth exists, Creationists exist and empty space exists.  Your desire is made up of real things.

 

 

*slow clap*



#1464 Duchykins

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 06:49 AM

can thing B have its real roots in thing C which has its roots in thing D and so on.  Soon nothing is real because it could be something else.  Is that the way you are going to get rid of God whom the vast majority desire?

 

Sure, desire for a deity can be rooted in some of our other desires for real things.   But as you just demonstrated with earth + creationists + empty space ... they don't actually combine into a modern Earth without any creationists on it, do they?  So it's a good analogy for why your argument fails.



#1465 The Brain

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 08:24 AM

If god were real, wouldn't we know ......


Who is "we?" Many do know.


No, many believe they know
  • Ill informed x 1

#1466 shadowhawk

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 12:20 AM

Do they cease to be lonely?

Do they have peace in knowing their purpose?

Do they have someone who finally understands them?

Do they have the assurance that they will live forever, along with their loved ones and an ultimate good?

 

The answer is yes.  But It comes from ones relationship with God.  That is the universal testimony of believers and I can add myself to that.  You are not denying the desire just what is desired is not real unlike other things desired.  .



#1467 Duchykins

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 12:29 AM

SH while I believe some theists do find peace in their faith, perhaps even you, I get the distinct impression many are not at peace with themselves.

 

Oral statements and actual behaviors are two different things.



#1468 shadowhawk

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 12:42 AM

So you say it might be true that some peoples desire for god might be true and then you say some might not be true.   Which is it?


The Argument From Desire

desire-theresa.jpg


  • Premise 1: Every natural, innate desire in us corresponds to some real object that can satisfy that desire.
  • Premise 2: But there exists in us a desire which nothing in time, nothing on earth, no creature can satisfy.
  • Conclusion: Therefore there must exist something more than time, earth and creatures, which can satisfy this desire.

This something is what people call "God" and "life with God forever."
 

The first premise implies a distinction of desires into two kinds: innate and externally conditioned, or natural and artificial. We naturally desire things like food, drink, sex, sleep, knowledge, friendship and beauty; and we naturally shun things like starvation, loneliness, ignorance and ugliness. We also desire (but not innately or naturally) things like sports cars, political office, flying through the air like Superman, the land of Oz and a Red Sox world championship.

Peter Kreeft debates Richard Norman regarding the Argument for Desire on the excellent podcast episode of
Unbelievable with Justin Brierley

Now there are differences between these two kinds of desires. We do not, for example, for the most part, recognize corresponding states of deprivation for the second, the artificial, desires, as we do for the first. There is no word like "Ozlessness" parallel to "sleeplessness." But more importantly, the natural desires come from within, from our nature, while the artificial ones come from without, from society, advertising or fiction. This second difference is the reason for a third difference: the natural desires are found in all of us, but the artificial ones vary from person to person.

The existence of the artificial desires does not necessarily mean that the desired objects exist. Some do; some don't. Sports cars do; Oz does not. But the existence of natural desires does, in every discoverable case, mean that the objects desired exist. No one has ever found one case of an innate desire for a nonexistent object.

The second premise requires only honest introspection. If someone defies it and says, "I am perfectly happy playing with mud pies, or sports cars, or money, or sex, or power," we can only ask, "Are you, really?" But we can only appeal, we cannot compel. And we can refer such a person to the nearly universal testimony of human history in all its great literature. Even the atheist Jean-Paul Sartre admitted that "there comes a time when one asks, even of Shakespeare, even of Beethoven, 'Is that all there is?'"

inset-fade.gif

"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." — C.S. Lewis

inset-fade.gif

The conclusion of the argument is not that everything the Bible tells us about God and life with God is really so. What it proves is an unknown X, but an unknown whose direction, so to speak, is known. This X is more: more beauty, more desirability, more awesomeness, more joy. This X is to great beauty as, for example, great beauty is to small beauty or to a mixture of beauty and ugliness. And the same is true of other perfections.

But the "more" is infinitely more, for we are not satisfied with the finite and partial. Thus the analogy (X is to great beauty as great beauty is to small beauty) is not proportionate. Twenty is to ten as ten is to five, but infinity is not to twenty as twenty is to ten. The argument points down an infinite corridor in a definite direction. Its conclusion is not "God" as already conceived or defined, but a moving and mysterious X which pulls us to itself and pulls all our images and concepts out of themselves.

In other words, the only concept of God in this argument is the concept of that which transcends concepts, something "no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the human heart conceived" (1 Cor 2:9). In other words, this is the real God.

C. S. Lewis, who uses this argument in a number of places, summarizes it succinctly:

Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for these desires exists. A baby feels hunger; well, there is such a thing as food. A duckling wants to swim; well, there is such a thing as water. Men feel sexual desire; well, there is such a thing as sex. If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world. (Mere Christianity, Bk. III, chap. 10, "Hope")

Question 1: How can you know the major premise—that every natural desire has a real object—is universally true, without first knowing that this natural desire also has a real object? But that is the conclusion. Thus you beg the question. You must know the Conclusion to be true before you can know the major premise.

Reply: This is really not an objection to the argument from desire only, but to every deductive argument whatsoever, every syllogism. It is the old saw of John Stuart Mill and the nominalists against the syllogism. It presupposes empiricism—that is, that the only way we can ever know anything is by sensing individual things and then generalizing, by induction. It excludes deduction because it excludes the knowledge of any universal truths (like our major premise). For nominalists do not believe in the existence of any universals....except one (that all universals are only names).

This is very easy to refute. We can and do come to a knowledge of universal truths, like "all humans are mortal," not by sense experience alone (for we can never sense all humans) but through abstracting the common universal essence or nature of humanity from the few specimens we do experience by our senses. We know that all humans are mortal because humanity, as such, involves mortality, it is the nature of a human being to be mortal; mortality follows necessarily from its having an animal body. We can understand that. We have the power of understanding, or intellectual intuition, or insight, in addition to the mental powers of sensation and calculation, which are the only two the nominalist and empiricist give us. (We share sensation with animals and calculation with computers; where is the distinctively human way of knowing for the empiricist and nominalist?)

When there is no real connection between the nature of a proposition's subject and the nature of the predicate, the only way we can know the truth of that proposition is by sense experience and induction. For instance, we can know that all the books on this shelf are red only by looking at each one and counting them. But when there is a real connection between the nature of the subject and the nature of the predicate, we can know the truth of that proposition by understanding and insight—for instance, "Whatever has color must have size," or, "A Perfect Being would not be ignorant."

Question 2: Suppose I simply deny the minor premise and say that I just don't observe any hidden desire for God, or infinite joy, or some mysterious X that is more than earth can offer?

Reply: This denial may take two forms. First, one may say, "Although I am not perfectly happy now, I believe I would be if only I had ten million dollars, a Lear jet, and a new mistress every day." The reply to this is, of course, "Try it. You won't like it." It's been tried and has never satisfied. In fact, billions of people have performed and are even now performing trillions of such experiments, desperately seeking the ever-elusive satisfaction they crave. For even if they won the whole world, it would not be enough to fill one human heart.

Yet they keep trying, believing that "If only.. . Next time .. ." This is the stupidest gamble in the world, for it is the only one that consistently has never paid off. It is like the game of predicting the end of the world: every batter who has ever approached that plate has struck out. There is hardly reason to hope the present ones will fare any better. After trillions of failures and a one hundred percent failure rate, this is one experiment no one should keep trying.

A second form of denial of our premise is: "I am perfectly happy now." This, we suggest, verges on idiocy or, worse, dishonesty. It requires something more like exorcism than refutation. This is Meursault in Camus's The Stranger. This is subhuman, vegetation, pop psychology. Even the hedonist utilitarian John Stuart Mill, one of the shallowest (though cleverest) minds in the history of philosophy, said that "it is better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a pig satisfied."

Question 3: This argument is just another version of Anselm's ontological argument (see Argument 13 in The Handbook of Christian Apologetics), which is invalid. You argue to an objective God from a mere subjective idea or desire in you.

Reply: No, we do not argue from the idea alone, as Anselm does. Rather, our argument first derives a major premise from the real world of nature: that nature makes no desire in vain. Then it discovers something real in human nature—namely, human desire for something more than nature—which nature cannot explain, because nature cannot satisfy it. Thus, the argument is based on observed facts in nature, both outer and inner. It has data.



#1469 Vardarac

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 01:42 AM

Another thing I considered today was that greed is evolutionarily advantageous. In times of plenty, we desire greater plenty still, for that is the only thing that sates and secures a mind that was never evolutionarily acclimated to the lifestyle we have today. We can see from the apologist's final point that this is basically an argument from incredulity; "nature could not explain why we have desires to the degree that we do."



#1470 Duchykins

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 02:28 AM

Another thing I considered today was that greed is evolutionarily advantageous. In times of plenty, we desire greater plenty still, for that is the only thing that sates and secures a mind that was never evolutionarily acclimated to the lifestyle we have today. We can see from the apologist's final point that this is basically an argument from incredulity; "nature could not explain why we have desires to the degree that we do."

 

Greed can be advantageous in certain circumstances.  Almost no traits are universally advantageous since what is disadvantageous or advantageous depends on the environment.  There is a place for altruism in social animals, and its there because there are times when altruism is advantageous.

 

This is one of the reasons Social Darwinism (which had no legitimate foundation in Darwinism)  is toxic when applied to social species, 







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