65 replies to this topic

[medievil]

I dont mean to push facts srry ifit looked like that

Edited by medievil, 11 March 2012 - 01:36 PM.

[hooter]

stop posting

Edited by hooter, 11 March 2012 - 01:02 PM.

[medievil]

stop posting

What about some scientifical discussion? Im interested in the subject and would like to get to know all the facts.

Edited by medievil, 11 March 2012 - 01:39 PM.

[medievil]

Pharmacoepidemiol Drug Saf.

2009 Feb;18(2):93-103.

A systematic review of research examining benzodiazepine-related mortality.

Charlson F, Degenhardt L, McLaren J, Hall W, Lynskey M.

Source

National Drug and Alcohol Research Centre, University of New South Wales, Australia.

Abstract

PURPOSE:

This paper will review literature examining the association of benzodiazepine use and mortality.
METHODS:

An extensive literature review was undertaken to locate all English-language published articles that examine mortality risk associated with use of benzodiazepines from 1990 onwards.
RESULTS:

Six cohort studies meeting the criteria above were identified. The results were mixed. Three of the studies assessed elderly populations and did not find an increased risk of death associated with benzodiazepine use, whereas another study of the general population did find an increased risk, particularly for older age groups. A study of a middle aged population found that regular benzodiazepine use was associated with an increased mortality risk, and a study of 'drug misusers' found a significant relationship between regular use of non-prescribed benzodiazepines and fatal overdose. Three retrospective population-based registry studies were also identified. The first unveiled a high relative risk (RR) of death due to benzodiazepine poisoning versus other outcomes in patients 60 or older when compared to those under 60. A positive but non-significant association between benzodiazepine use and driver-responsible fatalities in on-road motor vehicle accidents was reported. Drug poisoning deaths in England showed benzodiazepines caused 3.8% of all deaths caused by poisoning from a single drug.
CONCLUSION:

On the basis of existing research there is limited data examining independent effects of illicit benzodiazepine use upon mortality. Future research is needed to carefully examine risks of use in accordance with doctors' prescriptions and extra-medical use.

Im doing my best here to dig up all the relevant research; as i do i ndeed recommend benzo's for anxiety for some individuals so knowing the risks to warn ppl is of crucial importance..

Edited by medievil, 11 March 2012 - 01:21 PM.

[wowser]

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[wowser]

hey medievil, congrats on singlehandedly destroying an excellent thread! un-freakin-believable!

[medievil]

hey medievil, congrats on singlehandedly destroying an excellent thread! un-freakin-believable!

Discussing a subject is destroying a thread? well thats interesting why dont you come with some study's to proof me wrong as a change instead of complaining i dont agree with this study right away?

Well looks like copying out of wordpad fixes my posting issue.

[wowser]

I just posted my opinion and my arguments; there's nothing not nice about that; i never insulted anyone here.

You didn't say it was your opinion. You stated it as if it were a fact. Not only that but you posted like 4-5 posts in a row with quotes, this is really tiresome to dig through for anyone reading the thread.

Benzo's also gave many with SA a life; doesnt that count? i do however agree that the risk should be warned about.

Once these people get off benzos, they either get permanently worse than they've ever been in their lives or even possibly die. I don't think some temporary anxiolysis counts when you consider the considerable brain damage that goes along with it.

i agree with hooter... again! lol!

and ur completely in denial about benzos... benzos dont give anyone "a life" let alone those with social anxiety... they destroy lives. period... and now we have overwhelming proof that they also kill you...

so what do all the people with social anxiety do when the benzos stop working after they develop tolerance to their effects, and their anxiety returns even worse than before, but they have to keep taking the benzos even tho they dont work no more cos they cant stop taking them as theyre now addicted, and are suffering loads of nasty side effects on top of the anxiety which is now worse... didnt think bout that did u?

and like hooter says "Once these people get off benzos, they either get permanently worse than they've ever been in their lives or even possibly die"

[medievil]

I cleaned up my typing; hopefully the thread looks less like a mess now and we can discuss this.

[wowser]

hey medievil, congrats on singlehandedly destroying an excellent thread! un-freakin-believable!

Discussing a subject is destroying a thread? well thats interesting why dont you come with some study's to proof me wrong as a change instead of complaining i dont agree with this study right away?

Well looks like copying out of wordpad fixes my posting issue.

well surprise surprise ur keyboard has 'miraculously' fixed itself and its interesting to note ur keyboard worked fine for ur recent posts in other threads isnt it? it seems obvious to me ur a troll whose hell bent on destroying this excellent thread for kicks or something... give it a rest mate

[medievil]

I just posted my opinion and my arguments; there's nothing not nice about that; i never insulted anyone here.

You didn't say it was your opinion. You stated it as if it were a fact. Not only that but you posted like 4-5 posts in a row with quotes, this is really tiresome to dig through for anyone reading the thread.

Benzo's also gave many with SA a life; doesnt that count? i do however agree that the risk should be warned about.

Once these people get off benzos, they either get permanently worse than they've ever been in their lives or even possibly die. I don't think some temporary anxiolysis counts when you consider the considerable brain damage that goes along with it.

i agree with hooter... again! lol!

and ur completely in denial about benzos... benzos dont give anyone "a life" let alone those with social anxiety... they destroy lives. period... and now we have overwhelming proof that they also kill you...

so what do all the people with social anxiety do when the benzos stop working after they develop tolerance to their effects, and their anxiety returns even worse than before, but they have to keep taking the benzos even tho they dont work no more cos they cant stop taking them as theyre now addicted, and are suffering loads of nasty side effects on top of the anxiety which is now worse... didnt think bout that did u?

and like hooter says "Once these people get off benzos, they either get permanently worse than they've ever been in their lives or even possibly die"

That is a very real issue wich is why i recommened memantine with them; only then they are sustainable.

Why would they kill me? i dont normally take them; just till i got lmethylfolate back wich works for stim anxiety.

[medievil]

hey medievil, congrats on singlehandedly destroying an excellent thread! un-freakin-believable!

Discussing a subject is destroying a thread? well thats interesting why dont you come with some study's to proof me wrong as a change instead of complaining i dont agree with this study right away?

Well looks like copying out of wordpad fixes my posting issue.

well surprise surprise ur keyboard has 'miraculously' fixed itself and its interesting to note ur keyboard worked fine for ur recent posts in other threads isnt it? it seems obvious to me ur a troll whose hell bent on destroying this excellent thread for kicks or something... give it a rest mate

Thats because i type my posts in wordpad now and then copy. Im not sure why i had this issue now but if you read my other posts here youll know im not a forum troll

[wowser]

I just posted my opinion and my arguments; there's nothing not nice about that; i never insulted anyone here.

You didn't say it was your opinion. You stated it as if it were a fact. Not only that but you posted like 4-5 posts in a row with quotes, this is really tiresome to dig through for anyone reading the thread.

Benzo's also gave many with SA a life; doesnt that count? i do however agree that the risk should be warned about.

Once these people get off benzos, they either get permanently worse than they've ever been in their lives or even possibly die. I don't think some temporary anxiolysis counts when you consider the considerable brain damage that goes along with it.

i agree with hooter... again! lol!

and ur completely in denial about benzos... benzos dont give anyone "a life" let alone those with social anxiety... they destroy lives. period... and now we have overwhelming proof that they also kill you...

so what do all the people with social anxiety do when the benzos stop working after they develop tolerance to their effects, and their anxiety returns even worse than before, but they have to keep taking the benzos even tho they dont work no more cos they cant stop taking them as theyre now addicted, and are suffering loads of nasty side effects on top of the anxiety which is now worse... didnt think bout that did u?

and like hooter says "Once these people get off benzos, they either get permanently worse than they've ever been in their lives or even possibly die"

That is a very real issue wich is why i recommened memantine with them; only then they are sustainable.

Why would they kill me? i dont normally take them; just till i got lmethylfolate back wich works for stim anxiety.

look mate theres nothing u can say that will convince me that benzos are anything but the spawn of the devil... theres just so many reasons why they should be banned period...

and btw with regards to memantine i dont rightly agree with the idea of taking another drug to try to patch up the problems caused by a drug... but aside from this memantine has a lot of side effects itself... these being the common ones: back pain; constipation; diarrhea; dizziness; drowsiness; headache; pain; weight gain... and also these: aggressiveness; depression; anxiety; rash; hives; itching; difficulty breathing; tightness in the chest; swelling of the mouth, face, lips, or tongue; chest pain or tightness; fainting; hallucinations; one-sided weakness; seizures; severe tiredness; speech changes; sudden, severe headache; vision changes... so ur actually suggesting combining a drug that is proven to cause anxiety and depression in people with benzos that temporarily reduce anxiety, but later increase anxiety as well as also causing not only depression but also suicidal thoughts? okaaaayyyy.... u have a death wish or something?

and wot u said bout there not being good alternatives aint true either... benzos are oldskool, medicine has moved on leaps and bounds and there are much better options now that dont carry all the dangers of benzos... theres a whopping great thread on treating anxiety safely and effectively on this forum... i recommend u go look it up... peace bro

[medievil]

I would agree on a ban if you can list alternatives that are as effective.
Memantine is a very benign med in the doses used for tolerance; look this up on mind and muscle; or just all the experiences regarding it; i do support polypharmacy as it blocks the semi permanent gaba downregulation benzo's cause and the tolerance wich ends ppl in trouble.
Memantine has been shown effective for ocd; depression; shizophrenia and other disorders very well tolerated look this up on pubmed
I looked at that thread but fact is they will work for many without a doubt; but there still will be a huge group needing benzo's.

I also apreciate your discussing in a argumentative fashion now; and i definatly will adjust my opinion if all research confirms benzo's are really this toxic im looking into it.

Edited by medievil, 11 March 2012 - 01:58 PM.

[hooter]

I would agree on a ban if you can list alternatives that are as effective.
Memantine is a very benign med in the doses used for tolerance; look this up on mind and muscle; or just all the experiences regarding it; i do support polypharmacy as it blocks the semi permanent gaba downregulation benzo's cause and the tolerance wich ends ppl in trouble.
Memantine has been shown effective for ocd; depression; shizophrenia and other disorders very well tolerated look this up on pubmed
I looked at that thread but fact is they will work for many without a doubt; but there still will be a huge group needing benzo's.

I also apreciate your discussing in a argumentative fashion now; and i definatly will adjust my opinion if all research confirms benzo's are really this toxic im looking into it.

Benzos ruined my life and many other people that I've met both personally and some online. Try reading the forums for people who have been affected to scare you off them forever. I guarantee you'll get halfway through a really bad one and advocate banning them forever.

http://www.longecity...ctively/unread/

Edited by hooter, 11 March 2012 - 02:05 PM.

[medievil]

I agree they are capable of doing that; i dont deny that; i just claim that still for alot of ppl they can be lifesavers; but the protracted withdrawals indeed are no joke.

Perhaps i gave the impression i ignored the risk; i just claim that many need them atm till better meds are developped for anxiety.
If it wasnt for mfolate i would need to keep taking diazepam with my stim for shizophrenia; the toxiticy of ap's is far worse and they kill your personality; schrink the brain; can induce diabetis and even permanent tardive dyskinesia. I would take pregnenolone for tolerance issues in that case.
Risperdal was the worst period of my life; i even nearly lost my girlfriend.

[hooter]

I agree they are capable of doing that; i dont deny that; i just claim that still for alot of ppl they can be lifesavers; but the protracted withdrawals indeed are no joke.

Perhaps i gave the impression i ignored the risk; i just claim that many need them atm till better meds are developped for anxiety.
If it wasnt for mfolate i would need to keep taking diazepam with my stim for shizophrenia; the toxiticy of ap's is far worse and they kill your personality; schrink the brain; can induce diabetis and even permanent tardive dyskinesia. I would take pregnenolone for tolerance issues in that case.
Risperdal was the worst period of my life; i even nearly lost my girlfriend.

We have to realize that psychiatry is a political institution and not a medical science. In fact it's current practices are very medieval if not medium evil.

A better idea than benzos for example is pregabalin. If I remember correctly it is not as damaging as benzos while not building up tolerance nearly as quickly. However anything that messes with GABA is not a good idea.

There is a safe and effective anxiety and schizophrenia medication, but the government is actively trying to prevent people from gaining access. This substance is pure cannabindol. It is more effective in ameliorating all symptoms of psychosis and mania than atypical AND typical antipsychotics. It is more effective in anxiolsysis than benzodiazepines.

Most people however, will never experience it. How many people do you think have the ability to perform such an extraction, possess kilograms of marijuana and have access to a lab to separate all the 5+ cannabinoids and numerous terpenes? The closest a layman could get is to obtain the seeds of a understandably unstable strain called R4. This has a level of 0.5% THC and 12%+ CBD. Sadly this strain is private to a certain dispensary in Denver, and it is against the law for them to provide seeds. Further processing this to make hash and creating lecithin/coconut oil/hash capsules according to BadKat's cannapharma method is the closest you could get to pure CBD.

In essence, the problem with psychiatry is not scientific, it's political! QED, FUCK the system

Cannabidiol is shown to decrease activity of the limbic system^[10] and to decrease social isolation induced by THC.^[11] It's also shown that Cannabidiol reduces anxiety in social anxiety disorder. ^[12][13]
Studies have shown that CBD may reduce schizophrenic symptoms in patients, likely due to their apparent ability to stabilize disrupted or disabled NMDAreceptor pathways in the brain, which are shared and sometimes contested by norepinephrine and GABA.^[6][15]

Cannabidiol may block THC's interference with memory.^[19]

Oh and it also fights cancer, but weed is evil isn't it! ha!! Drugs are bad mkay! People with genuine illness and suffering are being shat on from the heights of the political and economic ivory towers. I cannot stress enough how angry this makes me. Maybe I should just stick a cigarette in my gob, grab a shot of whiskey and shut up...

Edited by hooter, 11 March 2012 - 02:50 PM.

[niner]

Guys, this thread got a little emotionally out of control. If there's any more ad hominem in this thread, someone is going to get a posting holiday. We had another thread discussing the Kripke paper, and the consensus there was that it was a pile. Correlation != causation. We all know that. Do any of those other papers show causation even remotely convincingly? I understand that a couple of you have had bad experiences with benzos. (and SSRI's). Let's try to stick to the science, okay?

[ScienceGuy]

Guys, this thread got a little emotionally out of control. If there's any more ad hominem in this thread, someone is going to get a posting holiday. We had another thread discussing the Kripke paper, and the consensus there was that it was a pile. Correlation != causation. We all know that. Do any of those other papers show causation even remotely convincingly? I understand that a couple of you have had bad experiences with benzos. (and SSRI's). Let's try to stick to the science, okay?

As the OP of this thread I feel the need to step in and facilitate peace and harmony through IMPARTIAL ARBITRATION

Firstly, it’s abundantly clear that both sides are passionate about their respective points of view, but I have to agree with NINER that “this thread got a little emotionally out of control” and ask with the utmost respect that everyone please kindly calm down and “stick to the science”

theres a couple of huge gaping holes in ur argument:

1 - you keep referring to "this study" when in fact we are talking about dozens and dozens of studies all of which show increased mortality with use of benzos and z-drugs... i already corrected u regarding this but this seems to keep falling on deaf ears... lol!

2 - as i have already pointed out to you it makes perfectly clear that these studies eliminated the influencing factor of comorbidity through controls and otherwise... so ur so called flaws dont exist... lol!

3 - there are also dozens and dozens of studies showing many other reasons why taking benzos and z-drugs is a really bad idea... they cause depression, suicide and other psycological problems for starters... so ur simply replacing one problem with others caused by the benzo or z-drug

Once these people get off benzos, they either get permanently worse than they've ever been in their lives or even possibly die. I don't think some temporary anxiolysis counts when you consider the considerable brain damage that goes along with it.

Benzos ruined my life and many other people that I've met both personally and some online. Try reading the forums for people who have been affected to scare you off them forever. I guarantee you'll get halfway through a really bad one and advocate banning them forever

Comorbidity of insomnia and depression.

Staner L.

Source

Sleep Laboratory, Forenap, Centre Hospitalier de Rouffach, 27 rue du 4ème R.S.M. F-68250 Rouffach, France. luc.staner@forenap.com

Abstract

During the last decade, several studies have shown that insomnia, rather than a symptom of depression, could be a medical condition on its own, showing high comorbidity with depression. Epidemiological research indicates that insomnia could lead to depression and/or that common causalities underlie the two disorders. Neurobiological and sleep EEG studies suggest that a heightened level of arousal may play a common role in both conditions and that signs of REM sleep disinhibition may appear in individuals prone to depression. The effects of antidepressant drugs on non-REM and REM sleep are discussed in relation to their use in insomnia comorbid with depression. Empirical treatment approaches are behavioral management of sleep combined with prescription of a sedative antidepressant alone, co-prescription of two antidepressants, or of an antidepressant with a hypnotic drug.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Excess mortality in depression: a meta-analysis of community studies.

Cuijpers P, Smit F.
Source

Netherlands Institute of Mental Health and Addiction, Trimbos Institute, PO Box 725, 3500 AS, Utrecht, The Netherlands. pcuijpers@trimbos.nl

Abstract

BACKGROUND:
Although most studies examining the relationship between depression and mortality indicate that there is excess mortality in depressed subjects, this is not confirmed in all studies. Furthermore, it has been hypothesized that mortality rates in depressed men are higher than in depressed women. Finally, it is not clear if the increased mortality rates exist only in major depression or also in subclinical depression.

METHODS:
A meta-analysis was conducted to examine these questions. A total of 25 studies with 106,628 subjects, of whom 6416 were depressed, were examined. Both univariate and multivariate analyses were conducted.

RESULTS:
The overall relative risk (RR) of dying in depressed subjects was 1.81 (95% CI: 1.58-2.07) compared to non-depressed subjects. No major differences were found between men and women, although the RR was somewhat larger in men. The RR in subclinical depression was no smaller than the RR in clinical depression.

LIMITATIONS:
Only RRs of mortality were examined, which were not corrected for important confounding variables, such as chronic illnesses, or life-style. In the selected studies important differences existed between study characteristics and populations. The number of comparisons was relatively small.

CONCLUSIONS:
There is an increased risk of mortality in depression. An important finding of this study is that the increased risk not only exists in major depression, but also in subclinical forms of depression. In many cases, depression should be considered as a life-threatening disorder.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please show some skeptism with this kind of study's instead of taking it as ultimate proof; while there may be some truth to it; this study has major flaws

do you have any data speciffically about alprazolam?

In short, there I see right and wrong on both sides. Both MEDIEVIL and NINER are correct with regards to the facts that firstly ASSOCIATION does not equal CAUSATION; and that this particular study is indeed flawed in regards to the fact that whilst it eliminated 12 factors of comorbidity, it did not eliminate pre-existing DEPRESSION.

Thank you MEDIEVIL for astutely posting substantiated evidence that DEPRESSION = INCREASED MORTALITY.

I wholeheartedly agree that this is indeed the case; and I understand your argument that since DEPRESSION = INCREASED MORTALITY, instances of pre-existing DEPRESSION might have influenced the INCREASED MORTALITY statistics reported within this particular study (as well as the many other studies).

However, please kindly note that this does not in fact provide a counter-argument against the evidence that BENZODIAZEPINE USE = INCREASED MORTALITY; it in fact only serves to further support it

This is because BENZODIAZEPINE USE causes DEPRESSION.

And you have already quite rightly pointed out that DEPRESSION = INCREASED MORTALITY.

Therefore, BENZODIAZEPINE USE = DEPRESSION = INCREASED MORTALITY

Hence, it does not in fact matter whether or not any of these studies excluded pre-existing DEPRESSION, since BENZODIAZEPINE use exacerbates pre-existing DEPRESSION, thereby causing INCREASED MORTALITY

(N.B. Please kindly note that I have specifcally addressed BENZODIAZEPINE USE alone, since it is my understanding that you are NOT in fact questioning the fact that Z-DRUG USE = INCREASED MORTALITY).

With regards to some scientific substantiation to support the fact that BENZODIAZEPINE USE causes DEPRESSION, see the following:

Journal of Mind and Behavior, Vol 19(1), 1998, 21-50.

Analysis of adverse behavioral effects of benzodiazepines with a discussion on drawing scientific conclusions from the FDA's spontaneous reporting system.

Breggin, Peter R.

Abstract
Benzodiazepines can produce abnormal mental responses and hazardous behavioral abnormalities, including rebound anxiety and insomnia, mania and other forms of psychosis, paranoia, violence, antisocial acts, depression, and suicide. These drugs can impair cognition, especially memory, and can result in confusion.

They can induce dependence and addiction. Severe withdrawal syndromes with psychosis, seizures, and death can develop.

The short-acting benzodiazepines, alprazolam (Xanax) and triazolam (Halcion), are especially prone to cause psychological and behavioral abnormalities.

These adverse drug effects can cause havoc in the lives of individuals and their families.

The sources of data to support these observations and conclusions are discussed in regard to the scientific method. Evidence from the Food and Drug Administration's (FDA's) Spontaneous Reporting System concerning benzodiazepine-induced adverse drug reactions are discussed, as is the general impact of the Spontaneous Reporting System.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Prim Care Companion J Clin Psychiatry. 2010;12(3). pii: PCC.09l00865.

A case of suicidal thoughts with alprazolam.

Mahendran R, Liew E.

Source
Department of General Psychiatry and Department of Pharmacy , Institute of Mental Health/Woodbridge Hospital , Singapore.

EXTRACT FROM FULL TEXT

Case report.
Ms A, a woman in her late 20s, presented for the first time in 2008 and was diagnosed with obsessive-compulsive disorder with panic attacks (DSM-IV criteria) and was prescribed fluoxetine 20 mg in the morning and alprazolam 0.25 mg 3 times a day as needed. She was not depressed and had not experienced suicidal thoughts in the past. After a single dose of both alprazolam 0.25 mg and fluoxetine 20 mg, she experienced grogginess and sleepiness that lasted for 24 hours. She continued taking only fluoxetine for the next 2 weeks without any side effects. However, as she still experienced panic-like symptoms, she tried taking half the initial dose of alprazolam (half a tablet of alprazolam 0.25 mg) together with fluoxetine 20 mg. This time, she described the “grogginess and sleepiness” as less severe than the first time with alprazolam 0.25 mg. The next morning, she repeated the same doses of alprazolam with fluoxetine and reported “feeling worse in a different way.” She had thoughts of jumping down from her apartment. These thoughts lasted “till the effects wore off,” referring to the grogginess and sleepiness. Subsequent to this, she has stopped taking alprazolam completely and continued with fluoxetine without experiencing similar symptoms.

…there are reports indicating that all benzodiazepines have been associated with the emergence or worsening of depression….

Benzodiazepines have also been observed to precipitate suicide in already depressed patients.

The American Psychiatric Association report on benzodiazepines warns, in discussing toxicity, that benzodiazepines have been reported to cause or exacerbate symptoms of depression… depressive symptoms can be potentially serious.

The United Kingdom's Committee on Safety of Medicines recommends that benzodiazepines should not be used alone to treat depression or anxiety associated with depression. Suicide may be precipitated in such patients.

In another report… patients, previously emotionally stable, experienced suicidal ideation with a cluster of other symptoms…

…there is high probability, given the risks associated with benzodiazepine use, that alprazolam contributed to the emergence of suicidal thoughts in this patient…

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Am J Psychiatry 1985; 142: 144-145

Long-Term Benzodiazepine Use and Depression.

Nathan RG, Robinson D, Cherek DR, Davison S, Sebastian S, Hack M.

EXTRACT FROM FULL TEXT

Withdrawal symptoms following discontinuation of these agents have been studied, but little is known about the effects of long-term use…

Recruitment through 15 local physicians was unsuccessful, but a half-page article about the study on the
front of the life-style section of the city newspaper yielded 30 telephone inquiries; 20 women met our criteria. Of these, 12 were seen for intake; they ranged in age from 28 to 48 years, with an average of 39.4 years. Their benzodiazepine use averaged 7.4 years, with a range of 1 to 18 years…

Daily doses were within accepted therapeutic ranges. Results of urine and saliva samples ruled out multiple drug use.

Three of the 12 patients were diagnosed as having a major depression [induced by the benzodiazepines] by clinicians who used strict DSM-III criteria and who were blind to the test data we collected. Scores on the MMPI depression scale were significantly high and nine of the 12 patients had T scores greater than 70. Scores on the hysteria and paranoia scales were also significantly higher (p<.OS) than female norms (T scores of SO) using the Wilcoxon signed ranks test on each scale and Bonferoni’s inequality to avoid the problems of multiplicity. However, the depression scale registered the greatest number of patients with T scores greater than 70.

The mean (±SD) score on the Social Readjustment Rating Scale (3) was 753.3±736.8. Ten of the 12 patients scored above 300.

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Int J Psych Med 1996; 26: 15-24.

Self-Reported Depressive Symptoms Following Treatment with Corticosteroids and Sedative-Hypnotics.

Patten SB, Williams JVA et al.

EXTRACT FROM FULL TEXT

These data suggest that corticosteroids and sedative-hypnotics [including benzodiazepines and z-drugs] may produce depressive symptoms as a side effect. This finding provides some support for long-held clinical suspicions about these drugs…

In medical populations, these medications tend to be prescribed for the treatment of insomnia or anxiety in an effort to improve patients' mental state or comfort level. However, since they may cause depressive symptoms in some patients, there should be a critical evaluation of whether their global effect is positive or negative.

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Psychiatric Annals 1995; 25: 158-165.

Toxicity and Adverse Consequences of Benzodiazepine Use

Ashton H.

Source
School of Neurosciences, Division of Psychiatry, The Royal Victoria Infirmary, United Kingdom

EXTRACT FROM FULL TEXT

Depression, Emotional Blunting
Long-term benzodiazepine users, like alcoholics and barbiturate-dependent patients, are often depressed, and the depression may first appear during prolonged benzodiazepine use.[12]

…benzodiazepines cause or aggravate depression, perhaps by reducing central monoamine activity.

However, anxiety and depression often coexist, and benzodiazepines are often prescribed for mixed anxiety/depression. Sometimes, the drugs seem to precipitate suicidal tendencies in such patients.

It has been suggested that this effect is due to disinhibition of aggressive tendencies (paradoxical stimulation), which are then turned toward the self.

For this reason, the Committee on Safety of Medicines recommends that "benzodiazepines should not be used alone to treat depression or anxiety associated with depression. Suicide may be precipitated in such patients."

SUMMARY AND CONCLUSIONS
Increased risk of attempted suicide, especially in depression

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Am J Psychiatry. 1972 Dec;129(6):738-42.

Aberrant [suicidal] response to diazepam: a new syndrome.

Hall RC, Joffe JR.

EXTRACT FROM FULL TEXT

All [these patients taking diazepam] showed symptoms of tremulousness, apprehension, insomnia, depression, and (later) ego-alien suicidal ideation. None had a history of previous psychiatric disorder…

Because the quality of the suicidal ideation in this syndrome differs from the usual indicators of suicidal intent, physicians should be alert to early symptoms of the syndrome and take measures to protect the patient against suicidal impulses. 6 case reports are included.

Edited by ScienceGuy, 13 March 2012 - 06:43 PM.

[ScienceGuy]

A better idea than benzos for example is pregabalin. If I remember correctly it is not as damaging as benzos while not building up tolerance nearly as quickly. However anything that messes with GABA is not a good idea.

Add to that the fact that PREGABALIN is strongly IMMUNOSUPPRESSIVE, in that it sigificantly lowers WHITE BLOOD CELL COUNT; hence, two reasons not to take it

[ScienceGuy]

There is a safe and effective anxiety and schizophrenia medication, but the government is actively trying to prevent people from gaining access. This substance is pure cannabidiol…

It is more effective in ameliorating all symptoms of psychosis and mania than atypical AND typical antipsychotics. It is more effective in anxiolsysis than benzodiazepines.

Most people however, will never experience it. How many people do you think have the ability to perform such an extraction, possess kilograms of marijuana and have access to a lab to separate all the 5+ cannabinoids and numerous terpenes? The closest a layman could get is to obtain the seeds of a understandably unstable strain called R4. This has a level of 0.5% THC and 12%+ CBD. Sadly this strain is private to a certain dispensary in Denver, and it is against the law for them to provide seeds. Further processing this to make hash and creating lecithin/coconut oil/hash capsules according to BadKat's cannapharma method is the closest you could get to pure CBD.

I wholeheartedly concur that PURE CANNABIDIOL should be made available worldwide via prescription, and it is a CRIME that it isn't readily available as such

[hippocampus]

Any rodent studies would clear this issue about causal relationship.

[wowser]

With regards to some scientific substantiation to support the fact that BENZODIAZEPINE USE causes DEPRESSION, see the following:

Journal of Mind and Behavior, Vol 19(1), 1998, 21-50.

Analysis of adverse behavioral effects of benzodiazepines with a discussion on drawing scientific conclusions from the FDA's spontaneous reporting system.

Breggin, Peter R.

Abstract
Benzodiazepines can produce abnormal mental responses and hazardous behavioral abnormalities, including rebound anxiety and insomnia, mania and other forms of psychosis, paranoia, violence, antisocial acts, depression, and suicide. These drugs can impair cognition, especially memory, and can result in confusion.

They can induce dependence and addiction. Severe withdrawal syndromes with psychosis, seizures, and death can develop.

The short-acting benzodiazepines, alprazolam (Xanax) and triazolam (Halcion), are especially prone to cause psychological and behavioral abnormalities.

These adverse drug effects can cause havoc in the lives of individuals and their families.

The sources of data to support these observations and conclusions are discussed in regard to the scientific method. Evidence from the Food and Drug Administration's (FDA's) Spontaneous Reporting System concerning benzodiazepine-induced adverse drug reactions are discussed, as is the general impact of the Spontaneous Reporting System.

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Prim Care Companion J Clin Psychiatry. 2010;12(3). pii: PCC.09l00865.

A case of suicidal thoughts with alprazolam.

Mahendran R, Liew E.

Source
Department of General Psychiatry and Department of Pharmacy , Institute of Mental Health/Woodbridge Hospital , Singapore.

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Case report.
Ms A, a woman in her late 20s, presented for the first time in 2008 and was diagnosed with obsessive-compulsive disorder with panic attacks (DSM-IV criteria) and was prescribed fluoxetine 20 mg in the morning and alprazolam 0.25 mg 3 times a day as needed. She was not depressed and had not experienced suicidal thoughts in the past. After a single dose of both alprazolam 0.25 mg and fluoxetine 20 mg, she experienced grogginess and sleepiness that lasted for 24 hours. She continued taking only fluoxetine for the next 2 weeks without any side effects. However, as she still experienced panic-like symptoms, she tried taking half the initial dose of alprazolam (half a tablet of alprazolam 0.25 mg) together with fluoxetine 20 mg. This time, she described the “grogginess and sleepiness” as less severe than the first time with alprazolam 0.25 mg. The next morning, she repeated the same doses of alprazolam with fluoxetine and reported “feeling worse in a different way.” She had thoughts of jumping down from her apartment. These thoughts lasted “till the effects wore off,” referring to the grogginess and sleepiness. Subsequent to this, she has stopped taking alprazolam completely and continued with fluoxetine without experiencing similar symptoms.

…there are reports indicating that all benzodiazepines have been associated with the emergence or worsening of depression….

Benzodiazepines have also been observed to precipitate suicide in already depressed patients.

The American Psychiatric Association report on benzodiazepines warns, in discussing toxicity, that benzodiazepines have been reported to cause or exacerbate symptoms of depression… depressive symptoms can be potentially serious.

The United Kingdom's Committee on Safety of Medicines recommends that benzodiazepines should not be used alone to treat depression or anxiety associated with depression. Suicide may be precipitated in such patients.

In another report… patients, previously emotionally stable, experienced suicidal ideation with a cluster of other symptoms…

…there is high probability, given the risks associated with benzodiazepine use, that alprazolam contributed to the emergence of suicidal thoughts in this patient…

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Am J Psychiatry 1985; 142: 144-145

Long-Term Benzodiazepine Use and Depression.

Nathan RG, Robinson D, Cherek DR, Davison S, Sebastian S, Hack M.

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Withdrawal symptoms following discontinuation of these agents have been studied, but little is known about the effects of long-term use…

Recruitment through 15 local physicians was unsuccessful, but a half-page article about the study on the
front of the life-style section of the city newspaper yielded 30 telephone inquiries; 20 women met our criteria. Of these, 12 were seen for intake; they ranged in age from 28 to 48 years, with an average of 39.4 years. Their benzodiazepine use averaged 7.4 years, with a range of 1 to 18 years…

Daily doses were within accepted therapeutic ranges. Results of urine and saliva samples ruled out multiple drug use.

Three of the 12 patients were diagnosed as having a major depression [induced by the benzodiazepines] by clinicians who used strict DSM-III criteria and who were blind to the test data we collected. Scores on the MMPI depression scale were significantly high and nine of the 12 patients had T scores greater than 70. Scores on the hysteria and paranoia scales were also significantly higher (p<.OS) than female norms (T scores of SO) using the Wilcoxon signed ranks test on each scale and Bonferoni’s inequality to avoid the problems of multiplicity. However, the depression scale registered the greatest number of patients with T scores greater than 70.

The mean (±SD) score on the Social Readjustment Rating Scale (3) was 753.3±736.8. Ten of the 12 patients scored above 300.

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Int J Psych Med 1996; 26: 15-24.

Self-Reported Depressive Symptoms Following Treatment with Corticosteroids and Sedative-Hypnotics.

Patten SB, Williams JVA et al.

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These data suggest that corticosteroids and sedative-hypnotics [including benzodiazepines and z-drugs] may produce depressive symptoms as a side effect. This finding provides some support for long-held clinical suspicions about these drugs…

In medical populations, these medications tend to be prescribed for the treatment of insomnia or anxiety in an effort to improve patients' mental state or comfort level. However, since they may cause depressive symptoms in some patients, there should be a critical evaluation of whether their global effect is positive or negative.

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Psychiatric Annals 1995; 25: 158-165.

Toxicity and Adverse Consequences of Benzodiazepine Use

Ashton H.

Source
School of Neurosciences, Division of Psychiatry, The Royal Victoria Infirmary, United Kingdom

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Depression, Emotional Blunting
Long-term benzodiazepine users, like alcoholics and barbiturate-dependent patients, are often depressed, and the depression may first appear during prolonged benzodiazepine use.[12]

…benzodiazepines cause or aggravate depression, perhaps by reducing central monoamine activity.

However, anxiety and depression often coexist, and benzodiazepines are often prescribed for mixed anxiety/depression. Sometimes, the drugs seem to precipitate suicidal tendencies in such patients.

It has been suggested that this effect is due to disinhibition of aggressive tendencies (paradoxical stimulation), which are then turned toward the self.

For this reason, the Committee on Safety of Medicines recommends that "benzodiazepines should not be used alone to treat depression or anxiety associated with depression. Suicide may be precipitated in such patients."

SUMMARY AND CONCLUSIONS
Increased risk of attempted suicide, especially in depression

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Am J Psychiatry. 1972 Dec;129(6):738-42.

Aberrant [suicidal] response to diazepam: a new syndrome.

Hall RC, Joffe JR.

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All [these patients taking diazepam] showed symptoms of tremulousness, apprehension, insomnia, depression, and (later) ego-alien suicidal ideation. None had a history of previous psychiatric disorder…

Because the quality of the suicidal ideation in this syndrome differs from the usual indicators of suicidal intent, physicians should be alert to early symptoms of the syndrome and take measures to protect the patient against suicidal impulses. 6 case reports are included.

wow cheers mate! this is exactly what happend to my sister... benzos made her suicidal! people need to know this stuff!

[medievil]

Allright where was i;

So concluded was that those issues could come from their ability to induce long lasting depression wich can indeed be a argument against the use of benzodiazepines.

HOWEVER:
It still isnt convincing that there are enough proper alternatives wich makes (for now) their clinical use a must.
Im sure there are ways to counteract the depression induced by them; of most importance patients should be warned off this before given a prescription.

What are those things that can help with that side effects?
Ill have to research this; with this knowledge "harm reduction" can be applied instead of just saying fuck benzo's wich wont people needing them make them throw away.

Bigger reply later

[stevep229]

Bump bc i greatly enjoyed reading this thread. Though I thoroughly agree with Hooter/wowser, i liked reading the arguements from idividuals whos lives have been touched by benzoes, one positively and the other negatively. Though i firmly believe they are terrible drugs, i do have a vague undestanding of how medievil is thinking, bc they improve his quality of life...though it was increased mortality rate that was the original topic. I believe that most ppl taking benzos have exp a decrease in quality of life, but if he has not i understand why he thinks the way he does. Emotional responses have no place in a scientific debate though, even if it is the emtional impact from the topic that is driving the "arguementers". Excellent read. Also a thank you to scienceguy for having a moderate and knowledgeable demeanor.

[Sartac]

Apologies about this not being purely scientific, and the lack of references,

I prefer to use GABAergic drugs on an emergency basis or recreationally, knowing the long term consequences and expecting rebound anxiety when discontinuing. Definitely a yin and yang effect that disrupts homeostasis. Withdrawal can be brutal, so not suggesting that they're worth using at all.

More often, phenibut or alcohol are discussed for recreational use, however correlations abound. I've messed with valium and zolpidem for anxiety and sleep enough to feel that the clinically prescribed effects aren't personally sustainable, as the studies also point to with tolerance. Remeron and herbs such as valarian root and kava kava are some alternative hypnotics, though they can carry their own (and similar) risks. Of course, just because some things are natural, this doesn't mean they're safe. There's updated info on the kava wiki page that describes toxicity of various preparations.

[medievil]

Bump bc i greatly enjoyed reading this thread. Though I thoroughly agree with Hooter/wowser, i liked reading the arguements from idividuals whos lives have been touched by benzoes, one positively and the other negatively. Though i firmly believe they are terrible drugs, i do have a vague undestanding of how medievil is thinking, bc they improve his quality of life...though it was increased mortality rate that was the original topic. I believe that most ppl taking benzos have exp a decrease in quality of life, but if he has not i understand why he thinks the way he does. Emotional responses have no place in a scientific debate though, even if it is the emtional impact from the topic that is driving the "arguementers". Excellent read. Also a thank you to scienceguy for having a moderate and knowledgeable demeanor.

The op admitted it can be attributed to the increase in depression to cause wich can allways be counteracted; i wish tea and biscuits and taking kava kava helped everyone with issues but thats not the case in a ton of those cases and those people are helped with benzo's.

The complications are mostly caused by retarded docs as they dont fully explain the potential bads; if ppl compare the bad with the good some are way better off with them.

Saying they can drink roses tea for anxiety is bullshit; its individually dependent and most find benzo's far more potent; valerian is a gabaa PAM too for example but its pure placebo in massive doses for me; and many more find the naturals not as good.

not that i say that natural things like mulungu dont have massive potential.

The only meds there's absolutely no need for are antipsychotics; they are extremely bad.

[stevep229]

The only meds there's absolutely no need for are antipsychotics; they are extremely bad.

I watched me grandmother slowly turn into a zombie... like just a husk of a human being. No energy, no joy, no positive emotions, no negative emotions, no memory recollection... like an interactive vegetable. i went through her meds, and her doc had her on alprazolam and risperidone. both were removed, as were half the other meds that he prescribed, and doctors were changed. within a month she was telling funny stories from when she was a child, laughing, she could remember mine and my 4 younger brothers names, she had the "normal" range of human emotion and interaction. I was in a similar instance with having multiple SSRIs thrown at me for anxiety this, and anxiety that, with my thoughts on the matter ignored, and made out to me some ignorant webmd junkie. change of doctors and change of diagnosis changed my life. it sickens me that doctors take as much of an advantage as possible of ppls ignorance, whether in be through age or a lack of pharmaceutical knowledge. thus far, in the last 2 yrs, ive done remarkably well diagnosing myself... i think its currently 4-0, with me pulling ahead. majority of docs are just drug peddlers for big pharma... lol, i stop my ranting, but i feel you probably agree, by assumptions pulled from body of knowledge you have shared on this site.

[medievil]

In that zombie state you dont experience extreme stress anymore wich allways triggered a psychosis in my case i even recommened ap's on risperdal wtf it completely changed my personality was agrying with most board morons instead of posting about the good shit.

[stevep229]

prescribing someone A.P.s is like less invasive... euthanasia. the person is still breathing and functioning, but it kills who they are... pharmaceutical lobotomy

Edited by stevep229, 14 June 2012 - 05:43 PM.