LONGECITY

Hey all,

I have been doing a lot of research regarding nootropics such as piracetam and such, and I was wondering about acetylcholine deficiency. I notice that I have a LOT of the symptoms listed on the Nutritional Healing website (unsure of its reliability/validity):

Difficulty remembering names and faces after meeting people
Difficulty remembering peoples birthdays and numbers
Difficulty remembering lists, directions or instructions
Forgetting common facts
Trouble understanding spoken or written language
Forget where I put things (e.g. keys)
Making simple mistakes at work
Slowed and/or confused thinking
Difficulty finding the right words before speaking
Disorientation
Prefer to do things alone than in groups / social withdrawal
Rarely feel passionate
Feel despair and lack joy
Lost some of my creativity / lack imagination
Dry mouth

Anyway, I have an order of 500g of choline bitartrate on the way, so I will be using this thread as a log for when I begin supplementing with piracetam and the choline.

My "stack" will follow rooster's idea of simplicity, meaning I will use something around the idea of this:

2.4g piracetam 2x daily (to be upgraded to 4.8g 2x daily if positive effects are displayed)
somewhere between 500mg and Xmg of choline bitartrate daily (will experiment with this based on dirdir207's experience)
1200mg or 2400mg of fish oil per day
And, of course, a daily multivitamin

Wish me luck.


Sources:

http://www.nutrition...ne%20deficiency

and

http://www.longecity...to-work-for-me/

Good luck on your stack . Might I add, if you do think you are choline deficient, I would suggest trying choline at a dose of about 3000mg, which is a manageable upper dose for most people. If you feel considerably better just from the choline without many common choline overload side effects, I would suggest you continue to just use the choline for two or three days to restore your choline back to normal before adding in the piracetam. If you are looking for acute effects, and the most profound effects from piracetam, I would suggest starting off immediately at 4.8 grams (see science-guys post for more info on why that is).If the effects are too much at that dose you can always back it off accordingly.

The only way you can know for sure that you have an acetylcholine deficiency is to have your neurotransmitter levels checked. However simply ingesting choline and seeing if these symptoms ameliorate themselves can be a good indication. For instance I also matched almost every bullet on that list before, and since using just choline bitartrate I can attest that I couldn't be any further from those attributes. Piracetam is only the icing on the cake.

Hmm. that list of symptoms does match what you would expect from lack of acetylcholine(consider diphenhydramine's effect which is ach antagonist).
also http://en.wikipedia....nergic_Syndrome It's wikipedia I didnt' check for sources listed, but theres some more information.

How in the world would one check their neurotransmitter "levels"?? Through indication of metabolites in the CSF? While this is the only reliable method I know of, his description of symptoms surely does not warrant the risks involved in a lumbar puncture.

Even if he was found to have low choline concentration in his CSF, how would one interpret the results?

Sent from my GT-S5830

Others might recommend centrophenoxine or huperzine.

The choline bitartrate and piracetam came today. I don't think I will try it yet, for I have an exam tonight at 4, and I read a few cases where it caused people to be sleepy during the first few days of use. I shall start the regime on Saturday.

Yeah, don't start experimenting during exams. Begin during vacation.

Exam is over. I took 1/4 tsp of choline bitartrate just to see what happened. I'm not sure if anything at all, but I feel more sociable. Could be a placebo effect. More to follow this weekend.

edit: Also, I have never read anything about choline being linked to social ability; all I can say is that's how I feel.
Edited by IHavePotential, 18 April 2012 - 11:22 PM.

Finished up another exam. I decided since it is only 4pm, I will try 1/4 tsp of piracetam and 1/4 tsp of choline bitartrate.

First impression: cranberry and raspberry juice might just be the most disgusting thing on the face of the earth! I regret drinking the supplements with it. I shall find something else to mix my "shots" with next time. (I only use a very little amount of juice, so I am going to call it a shot lol)... More to follow.

Amendment to yesterday: No effects noticed. At one point I thought some greens looked greener and blues bluer; however, I am attributing that to a possible placebo effect and concluding that it may have just been my awareness of my surroundings rising because of drug ingestion.


Today:

I took 1/2 tsp of piracetam, 1/4 tsp of choline bitartrate, 1200mg of fish oil, 1000iu of vitamin D, and a multivitamin.

No effects as of yet. I took the supplements about an hour ago with a grilled cheese lunch. Hopefully something kicks in tomorrow or the next day (i.e. I hope I'm in a loading phase).

More to follow.

I would switch out choline bitarate with CDPCholine. High doses of CDPcholine increase ACH receptor density over time.

I would take
Acetyl L-Carnitine - it donates the acetyl- group to produce ACh
CDPcholine
and Vitamin B5 - a cofactor in ACh production.

I don't know what other co-factors there are to ACh production, but proper ACh production should be straightforward.

Hey all,

I have been doing a lot of research regarding nootropics such as piracetam and such, and I was wondering about acetylcholine deficiency. I notice that I have a LOT of the symptoms listed on the Nutritional Healing website (unsure of its reliability/validity):

Difficulty remembering names and faces after meeting people
Difficulty remembering peoples birthdays and numbers
Difficulty remembering lists, directions or instructions
Forgetting common facts
Trouble understanding spoken or written language
Forget where I put things (e.g. keys)
Making simple mistakes at work
Slowed and/or confused thinking
Difficulty finding the right words before speaking
Disorientation
Prefer to do things alone than in groups / social withdrawal
Rarely feel passionate
Feel despair and lack joy
Lost some of my creativity / lack imagination
Dry mouth

To be fair, you could say the same thing about a lot of different conditions. A lack or overabundance of other neurotransmitters such as serotonin or dopamine could produce very similar symptoms. Of course, you could also just be deficient in ACH.

Others might recommend centrophenoxine or huperzine.

Is centrophenoxine anti cholinergic like DMAE ?
Huperzine A is NMDA antagonist ,when combine with Piracetam ,it less Piracetam 's efficiency .

Is centrophenoxine anti cholinergic like DMAE ?
Huperzine A is NMDA antagonist ,when combine with Piracetam ,it less Piracetam 's efficiency .

Please, tell me from where you learned that DMAE was anticholinergic. There are a few studies which propose this hypothesis, but there data are not conclusive in my eyes, and the dosages also seemed unreasonable. As far as I know, centro is only documented to be pro cholingeric. We could all be wrong though.

Huperzine's NMDAR antagonism isn't that profound in my experience, especially when taken at lower levels (like 10 mcg 2-3x daily, totally 20-30 mcg). You can also try galantamine, which has quite another unique spectrum of effects. With more sophisticated, specialized, and functional acetylcholinerase inhibitors in the pipeline, I predict that you will inevitably and eventually succumb to the bandwagon and to the will of the herd...no matter what your attitude toward huperzine is today.

I, just now, took 1/2 tsp of piracetam, a 750mg capsule of aniracetam, 1/2 tsp of choline bitartrate, 1200mg of fish oil, and 1000mg of Vitamin D... Hopefully some effects start to show, for I have no had any effects that I cannot attribute to a placebo. Updates to follow in the next while.

Hey all,

I just took another dose now. I shall update effects on it. I don't feel anything yet.

No effects to note for 27 April.

Slight side note: piracetam tastes horrid. I have tried mixing it with gatorade to minimize the taste. It sort of works. :P

I have taken another dose of the "stack" and will update tomorrow. I'm hoping that my lack of results stems from a) slow uptake (i.e. I'm in an attack phase) or b) the amount administered is on a pole of the bell curve. Hopefully I am not someone whom does not benefit from it.

-Dan

Your experiment is a fail because:
You used choline bitarate. It does not cross the BBB. At least not in significant enough amounts. I tested it myself, there was nothing but placebo.
And without enough choline in the brain, racetams wont work as good. If you are deficient, piracetam should have no big inpact on you this way.

Sorry for my harsh words.

1. You should buy CDP-Choline, its been proven to work. Yes, it does cost more, but at least it works, and depending on your acetylcholine deficit, in lower dosages.
2. You should add acetyl-l-carnitine. As mentioned before, it will act as an acetyl donor.
By combining both you are making sure the brain has everything it needs to produce acetylcholine.

I've been going through a similar process like you, and choline bitarate and lecithine had no or only a very very mild effect on me.
CDP Choline on the other hand made me actually enjoying little successes, way more productive, I can understand complex stuff more easily, and I have a general higher joy in life - and a higher stress resistance. I pretty much have(had?) similar problems you posted.
I have been able to work for 10 hours in one day on math problems, where normally I can't continue for more then a few hours a day (no matter if with breaks or not) And I freaking enjoyed it!!!
Don't take my word on the positive effects just yet, because its only been day 2 on cdp choline for me, so it could be placebo too... but the following facts support it:
1. cdp choline crosses the BBB
2. all of the effects have been reported with cdp choline and have scientific backing
3. my body smell changed from no smell to normal human smell (lol). This makes sense because there are acetylcholin blockers on the market to inhibit body smell. So at least in the body, it gets converted to acetylcholine for me!

Anyways... get those supps and redo your experiment. You'll be surprised, if indeed you suffer from a acetylcholine deficit.
I've not been trying piracetam with it, but so far, I'm impressed by cdp choline...

Digit span is a good way to know if you are low on ACh in the brain as impaired memory is a tell tale sign. You can test yours on http://www.cambridge...test/digit-span and if you are below 7 consider supplementation. I highly reccommend CDP choline, or my faviorate Alpha GPC, over the bitartate version.

Digit span is a good way to know if you are low on ACh in the brain as impaired memory is a tell tale sign. You can test yours on http://www.cambridge...test/digit-span and if you are below 7 consider supplementation. I highly reccommend CDP choline, or my faviorate Alpha GPC, over the bitartate version.

thanks for the url, didn't know the site before.
Mind me asking why you think that this test does assess acetylcholine deficiency? (references?)

Yeah, thanks.

I scored 8 just now.

I'll keep track of this. It seems like a good way to quantify any improvements that may occur.

Digit span is a good way to know if you are low on ACh in the brain as impaired memory is a tell tale sign. You can test yours on http://www.cambridge...test/digit-span and if you are below 7 consider supplementation. I highly reccommend CDP choline, or my faviorate Alpha GPC, over the bitartate version.

thanks for the url, didn't know the site before.
Mind me asking why you think that this test does assess acetylcholine deficiency? (references?)

I believe the forward digit span is used to measure "immediate memory" and this is largely governmed by the parietal lobe which is dominated by ACh. Of course, I don't want to sound too reductionist as cognitive process involve many other simultaneous circuits.

I did find a study where an anti-cholinergic reduces digit span, http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/1467811