56 replies to this topic

[BDon]

I've seen various articles from a olympic trainer Charles Poliquin recommending 35-45g of fish oil. Is there really " anabolic/androgenic " properties with that high of a dose. I was told from many people at my gym and health-conscious people that they feel much better, more energized and their skin is much more clear and better overall. As they have a anti-aging like effect when they take a high amount of fish-oil. The only negative thing they mention is the fat intake would be around 30-50g (approximate) of a high intake of omega-3. However they also notice they are losing weight, looking slim and what not. The best part about it they say also that their joints feel more lubricated no more stiffness and what not.

I'm curious to ask this to any others out.

Thanks!

[cypan]

Not much of an educated response here, but my approach to supplements has so far been to try to not megadose on purpose unless there's enough evidence backing safety and benefit from doing so. I mean, hell, I've even been supplementing vitamin C with only 250 mg due to mixed research while many others supplement 2 g or more. As for fish oil, my initial reaction is "holy mackerel oil, Fatman!" (see, this is why I try to avoid making popular culture references...). There would have to be some *serious* research behind the safety of dosing so high on any fat, but especially a polyunsaturated fatty acid such as that, before I even consider such a thing. I supplement a total of 3 g fish oil per day, which goes along with whatever I get from my pescetarian diet.

[nameless]

I've already stated my opinion on high dose fish oil, but will repeat again -- there is no evidence that mega-dosing will improve your health. And there is decent evidence that it will harm it. 40g/daily = approx. 12-24g of EPA/DHA daily (depending on concentrate). That's an insane dose.

For starters, oxidation and immune suppression are two things to be concerned about.

Edited by nameless, 22 April 2012 - 09:37 PM.

[Hebbeh]

Classic absurd claims that bodybuilders/athletes use to hide while attempting to explain their steroid gains. It's not the steroids...it's the fish oil. Victor Conte of the BALCO steroid infamy had his athletes claim their steroid gains were due to ZMA.....it's not the steroids...it's the zinc and magnesium pills....riiight!!! And on it goes. 30 grams of fish oil is not only dangerous...it's stupid..,,and these athletes aren't really using fish oil like this....it's just a cover story for the steroid use. In reality, fish oil is not exempt from the inverted U shaped dose response curve for any potential benefits...and 20-30 grams is waaay off the chart!!!

Edited by Hebbeh, 22 April 2012 - 09:51 PM.

[brunotto]

If you have an autoimmune disease 3 grams of fish oil maybe a good idea (no more)... but if you are healthy 3 grams is really too much... better stay at 1 gram or less (or even nothing).
If you take 3 grams of fish oil also a lot of anthioxidants are needed.

Edited by brunotto, 23 April 2012 - 10:44 AM.

[joikd]

For a short period of time (about 4 weeks) I took 30 capsules / day. I only noticed two things--my face became oily at first, then went back to normal, and two warts (one was a huge one on my foot that had been there for years) went black, then fell off and disappeared. Years later the warts are still gone. But, high doses of anything scare me, so that is probably the last of my "experimenting."

[BDon]

I read fish oil liquids are far more potent than capsules or such. Do you guys agree with this. Nordic Naturals is a great brand but far too expensive. What brand/model do you guys take?

[nameless]

Potency can be determined by concentrate levels, and perhaps form (ethyl ester vs triglyceride). A capsule and liquid should absorb the same amount, if using the same form and concentrate. Although the liquid may oxidize a bit faster, as it doesn't have capsule protecting it -- refrigerate to be safe, whatever type is used.

Edited by nameless, 24 April 2012 - 12:49 AM.

[hamishm00]

I've seen various articles from a olympic trainer Charles Poliquin recommending 35-45g of fish oil. Is there really " anabolic/androgenic " properties with that high of a dose. I was told from many people at my gym and health-conscious people that they feel much better, more energized and their skin is much more clear and better overall. As they have a anti-aging like effect when they take a high amount of fish-oil. The only negative thing they mention is the fat intake would be around 30-50g (approximate) of a high intake of omega-3. However they also notice they are losing weight, looking slim and what not. The best part about it they say also that their joints feel more lubricated no more stiffness and what not.

I'm curious to ask this to any others out.

Thanks!

The weight loss effect could be as a result of improved "fat firmness"

Changes in texture, colour and fatty acid composition of male and female pig shoulder fat due to different dietary fat sources.

Hallenstvedt E, Kjos NP, Overland M, Thomassen M.

Source

Department of Animal and Aquacultural Sciences, Norwegian University of Life Sciences, P.O. Box 5003, N-1432 Ås, Norway. elin.hallenstvedt@fkf.no

Abstract

Two experiments with 72 slaughter pigs in each were conducted. Entire males and females were individually fed restricted. Palm kernel-, soybean- and fish-oil were used in varying combinations, giving different dietary fat levels (29-80g/kg) and iodine values ranging from 50 to 131. Shoulder fat was analysed for fatty acid composition (inner and outer layer), firmness and colour. A clear dose-response relationship was seen between fatty acids in diets and in shoulder fat. Interestingly, the very long chain n-3 fatty acids seemed to be deposited more efficiently when additional fat was included in the diet. Both high and low dietary iodine values changed towards less extreme iodine values in fat. Low-fat diets enhanced de novo synthesis of fatty acids. Males revealed a higher percentage of PUFA and a lower percentage of C18:1 and MUFA. Fat firmness, but not colour, was influenced by sex and dietary fat source.

[niner]

The inverted U-shaped curve is alive and well. A little fish oil is good (really good, in fact. I wouldn't be without it), but a lot is bad. Here are a few refs regarding the 'a lot is bad' angle.

High dose fish oil causes lipid peroxidation, a bad thing.

Fish oil associated with prostate cancer risk.

The more highly unsaturated fatty acids (EPA, DHA) in an animals membranes, the shorter its lifespan.

Long-term intake of fish oil increases oxidative stress and decreases lifespan in senescence-accelerated mice

[BDon]

It's scary how something may seem so beneficial for supplementation can be shorten your lifespan.

[BDon]

Well I came to the conclusion just to keep it at a low minimum since I'll be eating much fish throughout summer. My question is does anyone know a website with a chart showing a specific intake of fish and their range values of (n-3) intake levels from that specific serving?

I found that 3 oz of Salmon is about 1.1 - 1.9g of total n-3

If 3 oz salmon yields 1.1-1.9g omega-3 thereofre 4x the value will be ---> 12oz of salmon yields 4.4 - 7.6g of omega-3 (now 4.4 - 7.6g omega-3 is a lot in a single serving thefore if I eat two or three big meals of 12oz fatty-fish I'll be getting minimally 13g of omega-3 which is a lot probably correct?

Therefore no needed to super-dose any fish-oil supplementation at all if I am eating this much fish over-summer. The problem is in the states due to school i'm on a budget so it's hard to afford salmon when chicken breast price is really affordable. Yes I don't get no omega-3 throughout the year it's sad...

[Blankspace]

My question is does anyone know a website with a chart showing a specific intake of fish and their range values of (n-3) intake levels from that specific serving?

The Linus Pauling Institute provides a chart with the average EPA/DHA levels of a variety of fish/seafood.
http://lpi.oregonsta.../omega3fa/#food

[hbar]

How often are you going to be eating that much fish? I don't know what the reason is for eating so much fish, but to be quite honest, in this day and age solely eating fish to make sure you're getting all the EPA/DHA you need seems like a really, really bad idea to me. Our oceans are turning into giant cesspools, which makes eating fish a risky proposition unless you can be somehow sure about exactly what you're eating. My current take on eating fish is I'll do it once a week maybe (though most of the fish I get is via sushi, which is so damned expensive it's hard to eat too often) and get the rest of my EPA/DHA through a fish oil supplement.

I really do think that this is one of those times where getting important nutrients solely/mostly through food may actually be a bad idea. Sure, I'd rather drink green tea than take GTE, and I'd rather drink wine than take a red wine extract. But eating fish instead of taking fish oil? Occasionally, yeah, but most of the time...nope.

Well I came to the conclusion just to keep it at a low minimum since I'll be eating much fish throughout summer. My question is does anyone know a website with a chart showing a specific intake of fish and their range values of (n-3) intake levels from that specific serving?

I found that 3 oz of Salmon is about 1.1 - 1.9g of total n-3

If 3 oz salmon yields 1.1-1.9g omega-3 thereofre 4x the value will be ---> 12oz of salmon yields 4.4 - 7.6g of omega-3 (now 4.4 - 7.6g omega-3 is a lot in a single serving thefore if I eat two or three big meals of 12oz fatty-fish I'll be getting minimally 13g of omega-3 which is a lot probably correct?

Therefore no needed to super-dose any fish-oil supplementation at all if I am eating this much fish over-summer. The problem is in the states due to school i'm on a budget so it's hard to afford salmon when chicken breast price is really affordable. Yes I don't get no omega-3 throughout the year it's sad...

[BDon]

Hey guys,

to update well I went to wal-mart and picked up some local fish-oil softgels. All I can say is the smell is NASTY! however the profile doesn't look bad at all!


Spring Valley - Fish Oil 1400 mg, Triple Strength, Natural Enteric, 60 Softgels



I really appreciate all the input here about not taking mega-doses of omega-3. Thanks a lot guys! I just think eating a well diet and not supplementing too much now is the best for me. If I do eat large fish in a day then I won't take much fish-oil supplements however if I don't then possibly I'd benefit into taking it.

[zorba990]

So far the most Fish OIl I have taken is 1/2 shot glass blended with whey protein and water. (Zero carb lemon smoothie...Yum!)
(http://www.iherb.com...00-ml/2796?at=0)
Thats about 1 1/2 Tablespoons or approx 20g fish oil rounding up.
Which is five label servings:
8000 mg Omega 3 Yielding:
--------------------------------
4000 mg EPA
2500 mg DHA
1500 mg "Other" Omega 3 ''

According to this site: http://www.wildpacif...079/PAGE/505912
A reasonable sized salmon steak would have 17g of fat.

So other than the fact that the fat from Carlson's is processed, and possibly less heated than the cooked Salmon steak, what would be the difference?




High Dose Oils Study:

Reprod Nutr Dev. 2005 Sep-Oct;45(5):549-58. Effect of randomized supplementation with high dose olive, flax or fish oil on serum phospholipid fatty acid levels in adults with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Young GS, Conquer JA, Thomas R. SourceHuman Biology and Nutritional Sciences, University of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario N1G 5B6, Canada.

According to Poliquin's interpretation of the above study,
http://www.charlespo...l-the-time.aspx

They key findings showed that while the AA/EPA ratio did decrease in the flax group (from 11.1 to 6.4 or 43%), the fish oil group was far superior, dropping from 16.5 to 1.4 or 91%. In addition, flax oil showed no statistically significant increase in EPA or DHA even when using a 60 gram per day dose! Fish oil showed a 944% increase in EPA and a 213% increase in DHA. Is 60 grams too much? There were no serious adverse events in any group, with only some individuals reporting loose stools and fish burp in the flax and fish oil groups, which lessened throughout the supplementation period.
Managing the types of dietary fats may not seem that important to some, but the membrane of every cell in your body is made up of two layers of fat molecules (the lipid bi-layer). You choose what type of fats make up your cell membranes every day by the supplement and food choices you make. When you increase your levels of EPA and DHA in your cell membranes, your risk of many diseases goes down over the long term, but your pain, inflammation, and stiffness will also decrease in the short term.

Edited by zorba990, 25 July 2012 - 06:47 PM.

[niner]

Is 60 grams too much? There were no serious adverse events in any group, with only some individuals reporting loose stools and fish burp in the flax and fish oil groups, which lessened throughout the supplementation period.

This sounds perilously close to Poliquin saying that 60g of fish oil is just fine. Depends on how long you want to live...

[zorba990]

Is 60 grams too much? There were no serious adverse events in any group, with only some individuals reporting loose stools and fish burp in the flax and fish oil groups, which lessened throughout the supplementation period.

This sounds perilously close to Poliquin saying that 60g of fish oil is just fine. Depends on how long you want to live...

If you ate 3 good sized servings of Salmon every day it would be close to that much. Still, Inuit's seemed to have a short average lifespan from what I remember. Sigh.. back to Coconut oil I guess...

[niner]

Is 60 grams too much? There were no serious adverse events in any group, with only some individuals reporting loose stools and fish burp in the flax and fish oil groups, which lessened throughout the supplementation period.

This sounds perilously close to Poliquin saying that 60g of fish oil is just fine. Depends on how long you want to live...

If you ate 3 good sized servings of Salmon every day it would be close to that much. Still, Inuit's seemed to have a short average lifespan from what I remember. Sigh.. back to Coconut oil I guess...

You can stick with the Salmon. I just checked on nutritiondata.com, and they say 100g Alaskan wild salmon (raw) has 11.7g of fat. However, only 1.3g of that is omega 3. The rest is SAFA, MUFA, and PUFA. I'm presuming that all the omega 3 is in the form of EPA/DHA, the Highly Unsaturated FAs. (HUFA). It's even possible that it's less than that, if there's some omega 3 PUFA in the mix. It's only the HUFAs that are bad in excess.

[david ellis]

I have had a different experience. In 2009 I was taking high dose fish oil, I took a malondialdehyde test to find out what my peroxide levels were. I came back with low levels - in the healthiest quartile. For the last year or so, I have been wondering why my experience was counter to the science. I looked up a few of my old links about fish oil. I think that I have an explanation. In this 2008 thread I was worried about lipid peroxidation. In this thread, I got a schooling about rosemary extract. So, since then, my fish oil has always been protected by rosemary extract, and a daily supplement of 300 mg of rosemary extract. I think the rosemary protected me against peroxidation in 2009 and is protecting me now.

[ironfistx]

You have to look at how much EPA and DHA is in a dose.

You can have a pill that says 1,000mg fish oil but only has 200mg of EPA and 120mg of DHA.

Or you can have a pill that says 1,000mg of fish oil and has 400mg EPA and 200mg DHA.

Those are very different doses even though they are both 1,000mg fish oil.

It's kind of like how with bromelain you have to look at the dosage and the GDU, because just saying "500mg bromelain" doesn't mean anything. Is that 18 GDU? Is it 600 GDU? Is it 2,000 GDU?

The liquid kinds of fish oil are usually more concentrated and cheaper per mg of EPA and DHA.

I found this thread while searching for fish oil megadosing. I figured it might not be as healthy as everyone was saying.

Edited by ironfistx, 25 January 2013 - 08:57 PM.

[Kevnzworld]

I have had a different experience. In 2009 I was taking high dose fish oil, I took a malondialdehyde test to find out what my peroxide levels were. I came back with low levels - in the healthiest quartile. For the last year or so, I have been wondering why my experience was counter to the science. I looked up a few of my old links about fish oil. I think that I have an explanation. In this 2008 thread I was worried about lipid peroxidation. In this thread, I got a schooling about rosemary extract. So, since then, my fish oil has always been protected by rosemary extract, and a daily supplement of 300 mg of rosemary extract. I think the rosemary protected me against peroxidation in 2009 and is protecting me now.

Most negative studies regarding higher dose fish oil (PUFA's ) can be attributed to their propensity to oxidize. CoQ 10 supplementation has been also shown to counteract lipid peroxidation.
http://www.sciencedi...531556503002687
Also astaxanthin :
http://link.springer...0394-011-0250-z

[david ellis]

I have had a different experience. In 2009 I was taking high dose fish oil, I took a malondialdehyde test to find out what my peroxide levels were. I came back with low levels - in the healthiest quartile. For the last year or so, I have been wondering why my experience was counter to the science. I looked up a few of my old links about fish oil. I think that I have an explanation. In this 2008 thread I was worried about lipid peroxidation. In this thread, I got a schooling about rosemary extract. So, since then, my fish oil has always been protected by rosemary extract, and a daily supplement of 300 mg of rosemary extract. I think the rosemary protected me against peroxidation in 2009 and is protecting me now.

Most negative studies regarding higher dose fish oil (PUFA's ) can be attributed to their propensity to oxidize. CoQ 10 supplementation has been also shown to counteract lipid peroxidation.
http://www.sciencedi...531556503002687
Also astaxanthin :
http://link.springer...0394-011-0250-z

I read the Co10 article about peroxides and Q10. Triple whammy, peroxides , DNA damage suppressed and life extension. I could really celebrate if I was a rat, so I can just smile a little.

I repeated the tests that I took in 2009 this January. Next week I should get test results on my Tbars lipid peroxide and DNA damage levels.

[ironfistx]

What is a good dose of CoEzyme Q10 to take? I've seen it added to some B complexes.

[Kevnzworld]

What is a good dose of CoEzyme Q10 to take? I've seen it added to some B complexes.

The ubiquinol form is the most effective. If you are in good health and under fifty I would say 100 mg a day with food that contains some fat is adequate. Given that B's are water soluble, a version that contained coq10 wouldnt be a formula that I would take.

[ironfistx]

What does B vitamins being water soluble have to do with taking them with CoEnzyme Q10?

[niner]

What is a good dose of CoEzyme Q10 to take? I've seen it added to some B complexes.

The ubiquinol form is the most effective. If you are in good health and under fifty I would say 100 mg a day with food that contains some fat is adequate. Given that B's are water soluble, a version that contained coq10 wouldnt be a formula that I would take.

I'd go lower than that. I'm healthy and over fifty, and I take zero millgrams per day. Now, maybe I'm not getting enough, but it doesn't seem to be hurting me. I've taken ubiquinol in the past, at a dose of about 150mg a week. If you take it in the oxidized CoQ10 form, then you'll need a bigger dose.

What does B vitamins being water soluble have to do with taking them with CoEnzyme Q10?

Ideally, the hydrophobic things would be dissolved in oil, while the water soluble things can be taken dry. When hydrophobes are taken dry, you're fighting against a lot of physical chemistry, since they need to find some lipids to dissolve in or else they'll just pass through you. Those lipids would come from dietary fat, but it's not going to be an efficient process. When they're pre-dissolved in oil, the hard part is already taken care of. If they're all mixed in the same formulation, then they're probably all dry. This doesn't mean you won't absorb any of it, but you will lose some. Maybe that's ok if you don't really need the full dose.

[ironfistx]

I found it. It's in the Source Naturals Coenzymate B Complex:

http://www.vitaminsh...43#.UQQMrKO5WcU

There are 12mg of CoEnzyme Q10 in a serving.

[Kevnzworld]

The ubiquinol form is the most effective. If you are in good health and under fifty I would say 100 mg a day with food that contains some fat is adequate. Given that B's are water soluble, a version that contained coq10 wouldnt be a formula that I would take.

I'd go lower than that. I'm healthy and over fifty, and I take zero millgrams per day. Now, maybe I'm not getting enough, but it doesn't seem to be hurting me. I've taken ubiquinol in the past, at a dose of about 150mg a week. If you take it in the oxidized CoQ10 form, then you'll need a bigger dose.

Here is another study showing that taking CoQ10 could be beneficial for someone taking fish oil supplements. Keep in mind that most studies that demonstrated problems with PUFA's were done on rodents.
" Effect of lifelong coenzyme Q10 supplementation on age-related oxidative stress and mitochondrial function in liver and skeletal muscle of rats fed on a polyunsaturated fatty acid (PUFA)-rich diet."
Conclusion :
"These findings provide mechanisms to explain the effect of CoQ(10) in extending the life span of animals fed
a PUFA-rich diet."
http://www.mendeley....l-function-liv/

Here s a study done on humans that shows 150mg of ubiquinone increases SOD, and decreases CRP ( increases an endogenous antioxidant , and decreases systemic inflammation).
http://www.mendeley....y-markers-high-


I am 56 and in good health. I take 200 mgs of ubiquinol daily for many reasons, including those above. I take 2000 mg of fish oil daily ( plus who knows how many other oils in my diet ). I think that lipid soluble ( lypophilic ) antioxidants are important for decreasing lipid peroxidation.
Statin users should also supplement with CoQ10.

Edit: fixed broken link.

Edited by niner, 26 January 2013 - 09:37 PM.

[BLimitless]

Key point is that bodybuilders might be getting an insane amount of omega-6 in their diet. I used to eat 200g peanut butter a day and then stuff my face with all sorts of other omega-6 rich goodies, you can imagine how that felt.