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Light Therapy - Nootropic effect

anxiety depression mdma nootropic cognitive light therapy

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#1 nickygstar

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 07:40 AM


all this is in my own perspective because as far I can see there are no studies for light therapy and cognitive abilities, only with mood.

I started using a light box, not for SAD that I was aware of, but to boost mood. I have always found in the summer I am much happier and can think clearer. So I used two different lights, one was a white light:

After two or three days of using (first thing after waking for 30 mins) I was significantly more clear headed and mentally sharper. However, I felt stressed after a few more days and my sleep wake cycles became uneven. I've sinced used a blue light for the same time. I find this causes a great increase in mood, and if controlled right can be extremely beneficial for cognitive abilities. Since using it I feel a lot more sociable, almost excited to socialise again, and more clear headed, I don't get brain fog any more. I'd like to say to anyone who might suspect a placebo effect, it is definitely not. I was wondering what people thoughts on this are. And if anyone reads it and tries it because they read this would be fulfilling.

I was thinking that possibly the effect might be so prominent because I have abused MDMA in the past and have anxiety, which I think partly could have made cognitive abilities slip. But from using a light at the right times I have found all these effects reversed. Obviously the is more relevant to people who don't work outside in the sun, but because when you use light therapy it is on a schedule I believe this is why it has such a profound effect.

#2 LazarusMan

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 01:16 PM

Triple post! :P Very interesting. Are there any studies that indicated that different wave lengths of light can have different effects. I have hear, though I don't remember from where, that blue light tends to calm people while red lights can bring about aggression. Quite funny actually that the local bar here "Red Lulu" has a high rate of bar fights and the inside is completely lit with red lighting. haha

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#3 jadamgo

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 07:23 PM

Blue/Green light stimulates the melanopsin receptors, which play a major role in entraining the circadian rhythm. Blue/Green light and white light are the most stimulating. If you're underaroused, lightboxes (or sunlight) will certainly provide a nootropic effect. If OTOH you're over-aroused (e.g. GAD) you'd instead become agitated and distractible.

#4 nickygstar

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 09:30 PM

Triple post! :P Very interesting. Are there any studies that indicated that different wave lengths of light can have different effects. I have hear, though I don't remember from where, that blue light tends to calm people while red lights can bring about aggression. Quite funny actually that the local bar here "Red Lulu" has a high rate of bar fights and the inside is completely lit with red lighting. haha


I have seen studies of white vs. blue light, and in some other studies they used red light as a placebo. Interesting, I guess if there was enough red light then it could have that effect, if that is what it does.

#5 nickygstar

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 09:33 PM

Blue/Green light stimulates the melanopsin receptors, which play a major role in entraining the circadian rhythm. Blue/Green light and white light are the most stimulating. If you're underaroused, lightboxes (or sunlight) will certainly provide a nootropic effect. If OTOH you're over-aroused (e.g. GAD) you'd instead become agitated and distractible.



Actually, that is what I have found more in the last few days. I have GAD, but also kind of low mood. I find the blue light lifts my mood very effectively (almost euphoric sometimes) as well as allowing me to think clearer. However, straight after using for around 2 hours, I cannot stop getting into arguments in my head about anxiety provoking things. I have been using it for 30 mins each day on the highest setting, and this side effect has slowly crept up. I am going to stop for a while, then reduce to 15 mins on lowest setting and go from there. Do you know of any way to get the mood lift, and nootropic effect without the increase in anxiety? A different colour light perhaps? (white light was even worse than blue).

Edited by nickygstar, 05 June 2012 - 09:36 PM.


#6 jadamgo

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 11:41 PM

If you have GAD, anything that stimulates and energizes you can cause anxiety. In order to solve the low mood problem without getting more anxious, you have to treat the GAD.

Luckily, GAD is extremely treatable -- most modern antidepressants stand a good chance of relieving the symptoms. (They're often much better at managing anxiety than depression, curiously enough. I personally think the SSRIs, SNRIs, and MAOIs should be marketed as long-term anti-anxiety drugs instead of anti-depressants.)

Also, modern psychotherapy is very effective with the anxiety disorders. As the most common psych conditions in first world countries today, the anxiety disorders have been studied thoroughly, and they all have their own specific therapies. GAD is usually treated primarily with behavioral methods like relaxation training and exposure/desensitization, but cognitive restructuring can play a pretty significant role too.

Once you have the anxiety under control, you will be able to enjoy the full benefits of light therapy and other treatments for your low mood. Until the GAD is well-treated or cured, the best advice I can give you for managing both the low mood and high anxiety is exercise. You'll have to find which kinds of exercise are helpful to you and which aren't -- what makes one person feel calm and happy may cause another person to panic. But just about everyone can find at least one type of exercise that reliably improves both emotional and physical health.

#7 nickygstar

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 02:56 PM

If you have GAD, anything that stimulates and energizes you can cause anxiety. In order to solve the low mood problem without getting more anxious, you have to treat the GAD.

Luckily, GAD is extremely treatable -- most modern antidepressants stand a good chance of relieving the symptoms. (They're often much better at managing anxiety than depression, curiously enough. I personally think the SSRIs, SNRIs, and MAOIs should be marketed as long-term anti-anxiety drugs instead of anti-depressants.)

Also, modern psychotherapy is very effective with the anxiety disorders. As the most common psych conditions in first world countries today, the anxiety disorders have been studied thoroughly, and they all have their own specific therapies. GAD is usually treated primarily with behavioral methods like relaxation training and exposure/desensitization, but cognitive restructuring can play a pretty significant role too.

Once you have the anxiety under control, you will be able to enjoy the full benefits of light therapy and other treatments for your low mood. Until the GAD is well-treated or cured, the best advice I can give you for managing both the low mood and high anxiety is exercise. You'll have to find which kinds of exercise are helpful to you and which aren't -- what makes one person feel calm and happy may cause another person to panic. But just about everyone can find at least one type of exercise that reliably improves both emotional and physical health.


Thanks for the reply, it is very informing. SSRIs are effective at treating GAD, I have taken citalopram and my anxiety was greatly reduced, however, I became impulsive and cold-hearted. Do you know if any other SSRIs are likely to cause the same effects? Are there major differences between them? Psychotherapy is also useful but for me seems to take a very long time to make any differences, and if there are things you don't want to accept then it can be useless. I find running to be the best form of exercise to combat anxiety.

#8 jadamgo

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 10:25 PM

Yes, the "selective" SRIs are not all as selective as they seem. The only totally selective one is escitalopram (Lexapro). Actually, we don't really know if it's fully selective; we just assume it's fully selective because we can't find any targets for escitalopram other than the serotonin transporter. For all we know, these drugs might be affecting untested/unknown receptors without our knowledge, and this may explain many of the differences between these supposedly identical drugs.

If the citalopram has made you cold-hearted (as in "blunted/flattened social emotions"), that's a common side effect of high-dose SSRI treatment. It will probably go away if you reduce the dose, or if you switch to a different medication. Any of the SSRIs is worth a try, except that I don't normally recommend Paxil because there's a mild issue of people depending on Paxil to fall asleep at night and having withdrawal symptoms when quitting it.

As for the impulsivity, that's a bit harder to understand. SSRIs are not generally known for making people more impulsive. In fact, when dosed properly SSRIs usually increase the positive social emotions and decrease impulsivity. You could add buspirone to the citalopram, or switch to vilazodone. If you have insurance, go for the vilazodone. Don't let the doctor push you all the way up to the maximum dose of 40mg without first trying the 20mg dose -- it might work fine, and is less likely to cause side effects. If you don't have insurance, buspirone is cheaper but you have to take it several times per day.

As for non-SSRI drugs, you could always try Effexor XR, Cymbalta, or Savella for long-term use. There are also some short-term non-addictive medicines like propranolol, trazodone, and hydroxyzine which can halt anxiety flareups without the addictiveness of benzos. There are, of course, other drugs that work for GAD, but messing around with the TCAs and MAOIs tends to cause more side effects than they're worth. On the subject of fixing the problem without side effects...

There are many psychotherapies nowadays that deliver fast results for anxiety. If you're uncomfortable waiting a long time for old-fashioned therapy to work, you might be interested in a course of modern, time-limited psychotherapy. CBT, ACT, behavior modification, and brief psychodynamic therapy are all shown to deliver results in weeks to months, instead of years. In my case, I started last July with a quadruple diagnosis of ADHD, relapsed major depression, social phobia, and anxiety disorder NOS. (And circadian rhythm sleep disorder, but I wasn't in treatment for that one.)

After 8 sessions of psychotherapy, all I had left was well-controlled ADHD. In fact, halfway through the therapy, I had my doctor cut the dose of ADHD meds in half to eliminate the side effects.

But you should know that I only had this success with my third therapist -- I had seen someone in high school who didn't help me with very much despite several months of weekly sessions, and lots of money. And as I was relapsing into depression and developing the anxiety disorder, I began seeing my college's psychologist weekly and he was entirely unhelpful. Neither of those people knew how to deal effectively and rapidly with the problems I was having. So I asked a local doctor for help finding someone who knew what they were doing. She found a perfect match -- an experienced therapist who specialized in emotional and attention problems in young adults! We got along well, and the rest is history.

Summary:
1.) You don't have to tolerate the emotional side effects of high-dose citalopram. Cut the dose or switch to another med -- they are NOT all the same. SSRIs, SNRIs, and Viibryd (vilazodone) are your first options for switching, and you don't need a psychiatrist to get them.
2.) Good therapy works quickly. If you'd like to have the GAD cured so you don't need anxiety meds for the rest of your life, good therapy is the way to go. It starts working within the first month, and you'll be back to normal (or better) within 3-10 months.

#9 nickygstar

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 10:13 PM

Yes, the "selective" SRIs are not all as selective as they seem. The only totally selective one is escitalopram (Lexapro). Actually, we don't really know if it's fully selective; we just assume it's fully selective because we can't find any targets for escitalopram other than the serotonin transporter. For all we know, these drugs might be affecting untested/unknown receptors without our knowledge, and this may explain many of the differences between these supposedly identical drugs.

If the citalopram has made you cold-hearted (as in "blunted/flattened social emotions"), that's a common side effect of high-dose SSRI treatment. It will probably go away if you reduce the dose, or if you switch to a different medication. Any of the SSRIs is worth a try, except that I don't normally recommend Paxil because there's a mild issue of people depending on Paxil to fall asleep at night and having withdrawal symptoms when quitting it.

As for the impulsivity, that's a bit harder to understand. SSRIs are not generally known for making people more impulsive. In fact, when dosed properly SSRIs usually increase the positive social emotions and decrease impulsivity. You could add buspirone to the citalopram, or switch to vilazodone. If you have insurance, go for the vilazodone. Don't let the doctor push you all the way up to the maximum dose of 40mg without first trying the 20mg dose -- it might work fine, and is less likely to cause side effects. If you don't have insurance, buspirone is cheaper but you have to take it several times per day.

As for non-SSRI drugs, you could always try Effexor XR, Cymbalta, or Savella for long-term use. There are also some short-term non-addictive medicines like propranolol, trazodone, and hydroxyzine which can halt anxiety flareups without the addictiveness of benzos. There are, of course, other drugs that work for GAD, but messing around with the TCAs and MAOIs tends to cause more side effects than they're worth. On the subject of fixing the problem without side effects...

There are many psychotherapies nowadays that deliver fast results for anxiety. If you're uncomfortable waiting a long time for old-fashioned therapy to work, you might be interested in a course of modern, time-limited psychotherapy. CBT, ACT, behavior modification, and brief psychodynamic therapy are all shown to deliver results in weeks to months, instead of years. In my case, I started last July with a quadruple diagnosis of ADHD, relapsed major depression, social phobia, and anxiety disorder NOS. (And circadian rhythm sleep disorder, but I wasn't in treatment for that one.)

After 8 sessions of psychotherapy, all I had left was well-controlled ADHD. In fact, halfway through the therapy, I had my doctor cut the dose of ADHD meds in half to eliminate the side effects.

But you should know that I only had this success with my third therapist -- I had seen someone in high school who didn't help me with very much despite several months of weekly sessions, and lots of money. And as I was relapsing into depression and developing the anxiety disorder, I began seeing my college's psychologist weekly and he was entirely unhelpful. Neither of those people knew how to deal effectively and rapidly with the problems I was having. So I asked a local doctor for help finding someone who knew what they were doing. She found a perfect match -- an experienced therapist who specialized in emotional and attention problems in young adults! We got along well, and the rest is history.

Summary:
1.) You don't have to tolerate the emotional side effects of high-dose citalopram. Cut the dose or switch to another med -- they are NOT all the same. SSRIs, SNRIs, and Viibryd (vilazodone) are your first options for switching, and you don't need a psychiatrist to get them.
2.) Good therapy works quickly. If you'd like to have the GAD cured so you don't need anxiety meds for the rest of your life, good therapy is the way to go. It starts working within the first month, and you'll be back to normal (or better) within 3-10 months.


Thanks for the reply, actually I was only taking 10mg of Citalopram because that is all I needed, and although there were not many side effects, I didn't really feel myself. I gather you are from the US, because you are quoting the drugs by brand names rather than drug names, and you mention benzos, which are very rarely perscribed here in UK. I'm not sure if all the drugs you mentioned are available here in the UK. I find I am very sensitive to all medication and also supplements, generally finding that I become blunted, or get insomnia or sleepy depending on the drug. Plus it is such a pain switching medications, only to feel indecisive about whether it is the right thing to be on them anyway once they start to work. I agree with you with CBT, I know less about ACT. It is keeping the persistence and motivation of doing it long-term, I find I have random periods of remission in which the therapy seems pointless and then the symptoms come back weeks later. I have also tried nearly every supplement imaginable. The most effective is inositol in high doses, although that makes me feel blunted and decreased libido, as well as lowers my blood sugar because I am always craving sugar. Siberian ginseng worked well apart from making me feel agitated and unable to sleep. 5HTP made me more anxious, St John's wort worked well but again blunted. Mindfulness meditation I do every day does little for my anxiety. Its an ongoing battle. I'm glad you had such profound results from psychotherapy, which did you use? I have been doing CBT on and off for atleast a year, but I've come to the realisation that it is a constant willingness to change your cognitions that will pay off so it has to be every day. It seems to work well when I sit down and try to change the thoughts, but once in a new situation, the adrenaline that is pumping around my body seems hard to stop.

#10 Anewlife

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 07:32 PM

I felt stressed after a few more days and my sleep wake cycles became uneven.


This sounds like you overdid the light therapy or your body was still adjusting, it can create a headache if you dont ease your way in to it, and if you use it too much or at the wrong time of day it can mess with your sleep cycle.

I was thinking that possibly the effect might be so prominent because I have abused MDMA in the past and have anxiety, which I think partly could have made cognitive abilities slip.


I have experienced the benfits of sunlight before MDMA use and it was very prominent. Everyone experiences is but just puts it down to "oh its such a nice day :)"

With light therapy you need to ease in to it over a couple weeks even though the benefits are immediate. More is not better.

It should also provide a continued increasing benefit over time.

Cognitive ability is linked to mood, you dont need a study on cognitive effects, if it improves your mood it will improve your cognitive ability.

#11 eon

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 06:43 AM

i'm closely looking at this light therapy device on ebay:

 

PHILIPS goLITE P2 Light Therapy Device
 
 
Does anyone here have experience with this product?


#12 vendelin

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 06:56 AM

Interesting thread. Been planning to try a light box, but the good ones are expensive..

Apparently you have to use it max 1 hr after waking up (ideally half hr before desired wakeup time) to not mess up your cardiac rhytm.

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#13 eon

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 06:25 PM

I'd start using cheaper lights. I've seen those lights that go for hundreds of dollars. The Philips GoLite listed on Ebay I think was about $150 brand new. The one I linked above earlier starts at a $10 auction.

 

 

 


Edited by eon, 05 April 2015 - 06:27 PM.






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: anxiety, depression, mdma, nootropic, cognitive, light therapy

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