14 replies to this topic

[Baten]

Figured this might have a place in Brain Health, since my tinnitus is most definitely brain health related.

I made a thread on reddit where I reported my findings over the years. Those interested might want to check it out.

[Geoffrey]

Thanks for the write-up, very useful. So as far as the -racetams are concerned, piracetam helped with your tinnitus for a while, but became ineffective after a year. Noopept worsened the tinnitus. I have found that all the -racetams (pir-, oxi- ani-) except pramiracetam seem to cause a constant high-pitched hissing in my ears. It's so noticeable that it's one way I can definitely tell I still have a -racetam in my bloodstream, i.e. that it hasn't been fully eliminated. It's mostly noticeable when I'm in a silent environment, and is not too annoying, but if I focus on it, it's definitely there. It goes away after a day or two abstaining from the -racetams. It also lessens with pramiracetam, oddly. I don't know if this is an actual "sound" caused by increased blood-flow, or caused by the -racetam potentiating the chatter of nerves connected to the sensory receptors in the ear.

[Baten]

Thanks for the write-up, very useful. So as far as the -racetams are concerned, piracetam helped with your tinnitus for a while, but became ineffective after a year. Noopept worsened the tinnitus. I have found that all the -racetams (pir-, oxi- ani-) except pramiracetam seem to cause a constant high-pitched hissing in my ears. It's so noticeable that it's one way I can definitely tell I still have a -racetam in my bloodstream, i.e. that it hasn't been fully eliminated. It's mostly noticeable when I'm in a silent environment, and is not too annoying, but if I focus on it, it's definitely there. It goes away after a day or two abstaining from the -racetams. It also lessens with pramiracetam, oddly. I don't know if this is an actual "sound" caused by increased blood-flow, or caused by the -racetam potentiating the chatter of nerves connected to the sensory receptors in the ear.

So weird how everyone reacts differently. There's people that report augmented hearing sensations that make listening to music more enjoyable for example,
but I haven't heard of people reporting racetams to cause high pitched hissing. Really odd, good that it fades once it's out of your blood.
I didn't notice much from aniracetam, and I didn't want to experiment too much with oxi since it made me really weird and manic.
Prami didn't dull much other than my emotions, though.

[Nobrainer]

Noopept worsened the tinnitus.

I just discovered this too.

I suffer from sleep problems caused by some extremely rare pharyngeal dystonia. My brain must always be active to compensate the dystonia or my breathing is suppressed and arousal follows in a few seconds. A bit like sleep apnea, but different. This results in reduced cerebral blood flow and severe chronic fatigue. This is why I am experimenting with nootropics.

My tinnitus started a few years ago when I was taking a commercial nootropic stack containing racetams and other ingredients. I always had some occasional tinnitus but never that bad. I was very sensitive to external noise which made it even worse. I stopped taking the stack and started zinc and sublingual B12 and the tinnitus stopped within a month. But then I was not sure what caused it or what stopped it.

I am currently taking 3x daily some capsules I made with about 50mg picamilon, 20mg noopept and a little sulbuthiamine, plus a 10mg vinpocitine tablet.
I have increased tinnitus now and suspect the noopept. I have taken the picamilon and vinpocitine before and I dont think it is that.
The sulbuthiamine is probably not the cause. I only got a 2g trial quantity, took two 300mg doses and divided the remainder over the 24 capsules. There was no tinnitus when I was on a larger dose.

I will remove the noopept from the stack and experiment some more.
To be continued.

Edited by Nobrainer, 24 April 2013 - 01:02 PM.

[Nobrainer]

To be continued.

It appears I totally forgot about that until someone sent me a PM.
 
I experimented some more using just the single substance without stacking with anything else and found that most nootropics cause tinnitus for me.
Noopept slowly increases tinnitus in several days and also slowly wears off when I quit it. It is a potent stimulant, but the slow buildup of its effects is tricky. Picamilon is similar. Pramiracetam is quick acting, within minutes after taking it, the tinnitus is turned on and it also wears off more quickly. Even phenibut has a slight but noticeable effect on tinnitus.

It seems that anything that raises acetylcholine increases tinnitus, even a single dose of pure choline bitartrate, so I am pretty sure that ACh is the cause. When taking choline on a daily basis, the effect wears off and tinnitus returns to the baseline low level. I dont feel any different then, so I doubt that daily choline supplementation has any benefits for me.

Reading up on (REM) sleep deprivation, it appears that ACh is not simply a matter of a single level that can be high or low. Sleep deprivation causes ACh increase in some areas of the brain and decrease in others. Sleep problems may also cause a reduction in cerebral blood flow. It certainly does for me, causing symptoms of lightheadedness, bad memory, headrushes, even dizziness like hyperventilating when I talk to much. If I understand correctly, ACh is important for regulating cerebral blood flow.

I think the inner ear is very complex and there can be many causes for tinnitus. For example, blood flow must be just right to prevent noisy, turbulent flow. Perhaps when lower ACh reduces cerebral blood flow in the brain due to sleep problems, ACh and blood flow in the inner ear is actually increased. When taking extra ACh or noots that raise ACh levels, it increases even more, causing more turbulent flow. Blood flow does seem to be an issue in my case, because sometimes the random noise suddenly stops and turns into a beep, as if turbulent flow suddenly changes into an oscillating flow, like air flow in a flute.

[VerdeGo]

This post made me question my own tinnitus symptoms after an adverse reaction to sulbutiamine last year. I searched the symptoms for high acetylcholine levels, and found this site:

 

http://mindrenewal.us/page13.html

 

I had the majority of these symptoms. And sure enough, sulbutiamine (and probably most other nootropics) increase acetylcholine levels in the brain. it makes sense if there is excess ACh, then dopamine and GABA levels are lowered, but this is just an educated guess based on what happened to me and your own lower dopamine levels. Unfortunately antihistamines and anticholinergics seem to be the best at lowering ACh levels. This is why I'm scared to try another nootropic that affects ACh levels in the brain. At the time I was so anxiety-ridden I thought I had hyperthyroidism, and antihistamines like Benadryl were not recommended because it could worsen symptoms of hyperthyroidism, so I never tried an antihistamine to test its effectiveness. Only cordyceps helped, but alas I'm not sure what effect it has on acetylcholine levels. I found this abstract, but I'm not sure if this confirms cordyceps lowers ACh levels or boosts them:

 

http://www.dovepress...d-article-JRLCR

 

Abstract: Cholinergic dysfunction is implicated in the pathogenesis of memory impairment related to Alzheimer’s disease (AD). Accordingly, regulation of M1 muscarinic acetylcholine receptor (M1 mAChR) has been one of the major targets in the development of novel drugs for AD. Utilizing an in vitro system for evaluation of the M1 mAChR, we have recently identified that extracts fromCordyceps sinensis (CS) promote M1 mAChR function.

 

But this is all now starting to make some sense ...

[VerdeGo]

One last note. Vitamins B1, B6 and B12 increase ACh levels. Sulbutiamine is an analog of B1, and after 6 months of being symptom-free after my episode on sulbutiamine, I noticed some symptoms of high ACh returned (tingling feet, cold extremities, etc.) after taking vitamin B6. Perhaps it has nothing to do with ACh? But for me at least, there seems to be some link between B vitamins and nootropics that affect ACh levels, and tinnitus/other symptoms of high ACh. You said the B12 helped you, and I experienced nothing unusual after taking B12, and I've taken B1 plenty of times without issue, but I think Nobrainer is onto something with the ACh/tinnitus connection. Thank you!

[Nobrainer]

I have tried reducing ACh with a scopolamine patch, though not for T but to reduce my dystonia. It gave me typical symptoms of low ACh like dry mouth, muscle weakness, headrushes to the point where I could barely stand up and walk.
I did not pay much attention to the tinnitus, perhaps it reduced but I am not sure. It has been a few years and you don't really notice T when its not there

Its weird but it seems I can have symptoms of both low and high ACh at the same time, raising it increases one set of symptoms and lowering it increases another set. This led me to believe there is an imbalance of ACh due to sleep problems.

I have a weird condition were my vocal cords close when I relax, closing the airway. I can only sleep when part of my brain stays awake to compensate and keep the airway open. This is very similar to sleep apnea. When I relax too much during sleep my brain goes into panic mode and spark nightmares just to keep my brain active enough to keep the airway open. When that happens a lot I wake up exhausted and feel a pressure in my ears for most of the day and increased T.
 

This post made me question my own tinnitus symptoms after an adverse reaction to sulbutiamine last year.

Sulbutiamine is about the only nootropic that does not increase tinnitus for me. I only use it occasionally at only 300mg dosage. It has not much effect in my brain but it does make me feel physically stronger.
Edit: Actually I do need to correct this, just tried some to make sure, made a suspension in water and held it in my mouth for a while (ignore the taste ) and then it comes on very strong and very quick. In a couple minutes tinnitus increased significantly but 10min later it seems to decrease already.

Quoting myself

I stopped taking the stack and started zinc and sublingual B12 and the tinnitus stopped within a month. But then I was not sure what caused it or what stopped it.

I am pretty sure now it was just the nootropic/racetam effect slowly wearing off, because I had a few more trials and some wear off very quickly and some very slowly.

That said, I think there can be many causes for tinnitus and what works in one situation may not work in another.

If you have tinnitus due to loud noise exposure, literature shows that B12 and Zinc help protect and possibly recover the acoustic nerve. Racetams may help because they increase blood flow, making more B12 and nutients available. However, the increased blood flow may be audible, contributing to tinnitus.

In my case, noise exposure is not the cause. I blame my sleep problems that cause an imbalance in ACh and blood flow. Racetams help combat my chronic fatigue and brain fog because they increase ACh and CBF (Cerebral blood flow), but that also increases in the inner ear causing unacceptable levels of Tinnitus. I have quit taking any racetams.

Edited by Nobrainer, 07 April 2015 - 10:16 AM.

[VerdeGo]

Thank you for the update. I think I'll stay away from racetams for now too, because I don't want to aggravate symptoms I've had in the past. Perhaps adaptogenic herbs and fungus like cordyceps, lion's mane, rhodiola, and ashwagandha somehow regulate brain function (specifically ACh levels) in addition to blood sugar, blood pressure, and other bodily functions? Also, cordyceps contains zinc and a host of other minerals and nutrients. I wish I knew what chemical in cordyceps stopped all tinnitus and other nerve-related issues temporarily in their entirety, but I don't. 

 

Can anyone please make sense of this? Does promoting M1 mAChR function help regulate ACh to normal levels, reduce them, or heighten them? 

 

http://www.dovepress...d-article-JRLCR

 

Abstract: Cholinergic dysfunction is implicated in the pathogenesis of memory impairment related to Alzheimer’s disease (AD). Accordingly, regulation of M1 muscarinic acetylcholine receptor (M1 mAChR) has been one of the major targets in the development of novel drugs for AD. Utilizing an in vitro system for evaluation of the M1 mAChR, we have recently identified that extracts fromCordyceps sinensis (CS) promote M1 mAChR function.

 

[jack black]

Great thread. I came across this by searching, as I have a mild case of tinnitus myself. It's probably hereditary and related to aging as both my grandpa and father had hearing loss and tinnitus in their old age.

 

The interesting thing is I already take low dose lithium orotate and medium doses of lysine. I happened to have 22mg zinc picolinate capsules and took one today. I'm going to bump the lysine doses up and see what happens.

 

I already take NAC and ALCAR daily (that was mentioned in another tinnitus thread; supposedly military did a study with those on hearing loss), and not sure if it does anything.

 

 

Edited by jack black, 04 March 2017 - 04:58 PM.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

I've found that magnesium bisglycinate significantly worsened my tinnitus (I have one ear I am almost deaf at due to a firecracker exploding near me when I was little). But if the idiots want to call this noise a "hallucination" as they do sometimes with schizophrenics (although it's an abuse of language and just not true) then you can say magnesium worsens those "hallucinations".

[PeaceAndProsperity]

I already take NAC and ALCAR daily

 

I think the point of everything to do with glutamate is taking it white you are exposed to noise, not after the damage is done.

[jack black]

Update, I did that increased lysine together with Li and Zn all weekend long and felt no difference. On the other hand, I skipped NAC and ALCAR this AM and ringing is worse.

[Duchykins]

It depends on what is causing the tinnitus, which could be any number of things.  

 

Around these parts, however, people play with a lot of chemicals that kick your glutamatergic and dopaminergic systems into high gear, and mess with brain histamine as well (indirectly because of histamine's relationships with glutamate and dopamine).  All three of these are critical excitatory systems.  

 

People also like to play with things that are GABAergic or otherwise ultimately interfere with their GABA's inhibitory jobs.

 

In these cases, the tinnitus is caused by overexcitation of the auditory nerves, and can result in semi-permanent damage depending on what exactly the cause is and for how long it was allowed to continue.  For example, in the case of long-term benzo use or abuse, the downregulation of GABA (and consequential runaway excitotoxicity) can leave ex-benzo users with tinnitus for more than a year after their last dose.

 

I personally don't see how cholinergics could help in many cases since I myself have had to deal with tinnitus for years and am horrifically hypersensitive to anything that directly or indirectly increases my ACh - indicating that I naturally have a high or overly functioning ACh system, perhaps for genetic reasons.

 

The tinnitus is a minor irritant in my life since I usually have other things bothering me, like sensory processing weirdness, general hypervigilance and hyperarousal.  I also notice background sounds that most people aren't even aware of - especially electronics.  I can hear if a muted TV is on somewhere in the house, or if a USB charger is plugged in to an outlet but not charging anything.  They just sit there and emit a high-pitch whine that's annoying as hell.  And sometimes, when everything is quiet, I can hear my eyes move (the jerking of the muscles) which is a really bizarre sound.  I probably have some undiagnosed inner ear problem.

Edited by Duchykins, 08 March 2017 - 10:24 PM.

[fiftyyy]

I have a slight tinitus in my right ear, caused my a firearm fired close to it. L-histidine and B-vitamins alleviate the symptoms