73 replies to this topic

[nowayout]

I am surprised that MDMA is being discussed as a cure for anxiety and OCD. Is there any evidence of this being the case?

There is indeed some recent research supporting the use of psychedelics, under specific controlled circumstances, for treating anxiety and depression. It is important to realize, though, that this is not a do-it-yourself kind of treatment. Patients need to be under the guidance of a trained psychiatrist during the trip, or it may do more harm than good.

http://www.nytimes.c...?pagewanted=all

Dr. John Halpern, head of the Laboratory for Integrative Psychiatry at McLean Hospital in Belmont Mass., a psychiatric training hospital for Harvard Medical School, used MDMA — also known as ecstasy — in an effort to ease end-of-life anxieties in two patients with Stage 4 cancer.

Michael Mithoefer, for instance, has shown that MDMA is an effective treatment for severe P.T.S.D.

Doblin, for instance, has F.D.A. approval to do a study on the psychological effects of MDMA when taken by healthy volunteers. His subjects will be therapists who are taking part in a MAPS program that teaches them how to guide their clients through psychedelic journeys.

http://www.cnn.com/2...sion/index.html

In the MDMA study published in July, for instance, 10 of the 12 people who took the drug no longer met the criteria for post-traumatic stress two months later.

Edited by viveutvivas, 02 September 2012 - 10:33 PM.

[Heraclitean]

OK, I see. It seems that benefits are accrued in a clinical setting. My skepticism was geared more towards the idea that necking an E during a rave will make you a wiser and healthier person.

I guess that the prerequisites are a) very pure material b) low dose c) very low frequency, as in only once d) in a session guided by a therapist who is familiar with the procedure.

[Raptor87]

OK, I see. It seems that benefits are accrued in a clinical setting. My skepticism was geared more towards the idea that necking an E during a rave will make you a wiser and healthier person.

I guess that the prerequisites are a) very pure material b) low dose c) very low frequency, as in only once d) in a session guided by a therapist who is familiar with the procedure.

There´s this!

http://en.wikipedia..../Stanislav_Grof

To continue this thread I am wondering about DMT? Would it be benefitial the same way MDMA could be?

Does anyone have any experience regarding this?

Edited by Brainfogged, 02 September 2012 - 11:25 PM.

[Heraclitean]

OK, I see. It seems that benefits are accrued in a clinical setting. My skepticism was geared more towards the idea that necking an E during a rave will make you a wiser and healthier person.

I guess that the prerequisites are a) very pure material b) low dose c) very low frequency, as in only once d) in a session guided by a therapist who is familiar with the procedure.

There´s this!

http://en.wikipedia..../Stanislav_Grof

To continue this thread I am wondering about DMT? Would it be benefitial the same way MDMA could be?

Does anyone have any experience regarding this?

Without meaning to censure in any way, and more to get a feeling for the meaning of this thread, could I enquire as to why you seems so interested in psychedelic therapy? Considering its *highly* unorthodox nature, the fact that it isn't well studied (for obvious [legal and moral] reasons) and its general lack of availability to the public.

[nowayout]

Without meaning to censure in any way, and more to get a feeling for the meaning of this thread, could I enquire as to why you seems so interested in psychedelic therapy? Considering its *highly* unorthodox nature, the fact that it isn't well studied (for obvious [legal and moral] reasons) and its general lack of availability to the public.

Psychedelic therapies seems promising in that there are indications that they really may effect a cure or long-lasting remission in one or a small number of treatments, as opposed to the largely ineffective and expensive chronic drug therapies with chronic side effects currently available (see e.g. the research showing SSRIs are scarcely more effective than placebo and may make depression, etc., worse in the long run).

What are the moral reasons justifying (in your opinion) not studying psychedelics more?

Edited by viveutvivas, 03 September 2012 - 07:06 PM.

[Heraclitean]

Without meaning to censure in any way, and more to get a feeling for the meaning of this thread, could I enquire as to why you seems so interested in psychedelic therapy? Considering its *highly* unorthodox nature, the fact that it isn't well studied (for obvious [legal and moral] reasons) and its general lack of availability to the public.

Psychedelic therapies seems promising in that there are indications that they really may effect a cure or long-lasting remission in one or a small number of treatments, as opposed to the largely ineffective and expensive chronic drug therapies with chronic side effects currently available (see e.g. the research showing SSRIs are scarcely more effective than placebo and may make depression, etc., worse in the long run).

What are the moral reasons justifying (in your opinion) not studying psychedelics more?

I am not personally opposed, morally or otherwise, to honest research into treatment of mental unbalances with psychedelics. I have some personal experience in this area which indicates to me that it could potentially be fruitful, albeit not in the way that the vast majority of individuals do it today, even those who innocently into the woods to become "one with nature" (which is just glorified escapism in my opinion, but I may be being too judgmental).

The moral reasons it isn't (not shouldn't) be more studied is because most people, including lawmakers and government bureaucrats, and even most psychologists I presume, feel a moral repugnance towards granting any sort of significant and unique medical benefit to illegal substances. I believe it is common knowledge that most people are very conservative and easily swayed by what is held to be true by large numbers of people, regardless of the facts, hence why I used the word "obvious". I was not referring to my own moral objections.

[nowayout]

The moral reasons it isn't (not shouldn't) be more studied is because most people, including lawmakers and government bureaucrats, and even most psychologists I presume, feel a moral repugnance towards granting any sort of significant and unique medical benefit to illegal substances. I was not referring to my own moral objections.

So now that they have legal permission to do some studies, there is no basis anymore for their moral objections, correct? In any case, I find legality a poor basis for morality.

Edited by viveutvivas, 03 September 2012 - 07:20 PM.

[Heraclitean]

I don't know, you'd have to ask them. The drugs are still illegal though, I don't think decriminalizing their research in small amounts will make a huge dent in public opinion, but ultimately that is an empirical question which I am not in a position to answer.

And yes, legality is a poor basis for morality.

[Blink]

There´s this!

http://en.wikipedia..../Stanislav_Grof

To continue this thread I am wondering about DMT? Would it be benefitial the same way MDMA could be?

Does anyone have any experience regarding this?

The MDMA high is nothing like what you experience on real psychedelics like LSD, DMT and Psilocybin. I think they might have an even bigger potential as therapeutic tools. However, they're also more unpredictable. With MDMA it's pretty much the same high every time, but with psychedelics every experience is different. They can be very deep and spiritual.

Here's a documentary about how they cured anxiety and depression in terminally ill cancer patients with psilocybin.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=JASWFASqcps
www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV-j2JhoVE
www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRn_HD7nH8g

Edited by Blink, 03 September 2012 - 07:41 PM.

[Raza]

MDMA is great for getting a taste of what being socially connected feels like, when due to any number of conditions that isn't your normal state. You can orient yourself in that state of mind, realize the benefits, have that one important reconnecting conversation with someone with whom communication had ground to a halt under normal conditions, even pick up a little bit of social skill while on it provided your dose isn't overwhelming... all round, it is very capable of aiding one-time therapeutic experiences.

But it's not suitable for daily or even weekly use. I've seen it tried, but lower, continued doses just didn't seem to give the right effect. And for OCD and general (non-social) anxiety, it'd be a very heavy-handed and untargeted approach.

Edited by Raza, 04 September 2012 - 08:37 PM.

[Raptor87]

http://www.maps.org/...spaper-MAPS.pdf

[Major Legend]

Assuming we are all on the same page in terms of what MDMA feels like, it makes you so socially connected and boundlessly empathetic even at lower doses that the social interactions you are experiencing whilst on it automatically becomes too easy, and too natural.

This means you are not learning anything socially, and also you are much more sociable and pleasant compared to your normal self. To the point that when you have the social interactions with the same people again, they have this expectation of how sociable you were, and thus you are unable to live up to this expectation again.

So the issue is that its not very useful as a therapeutic agent because of how effective it is. It could perhaps make you see the world in a different light, but only for a short while, when it wears off people will flip pretty much 180 degree back to where they were before.

Where does that leave us? People certainly cannot take MDMA on a routine basis because of downregulation and neurotoxicity issues. From the perspective of a shy person the overall experience would certainly be disorientating and frustrating.

Edited by Major Legend, 07 September 2012 - 02:26 PM.

[Raza]

That's not entirely and/or necessarily true. Yes, the memories of what you did on MDMA, and consequently the skills learned from your actions, will be less accessible from a sharply different state of mind, but they won't be gone entirely. Regular users of MDMA in particular tend to learn that the state of mind they reach on it is not a distinct thing entirely from their personality/mood when sober, but that rather both are points on a spectrum, which you can explore until the dots are seamlessly connected as doses of various potencies and various states of memory and afterglow come and go. One of the big psychological benefits of recreational drug use is 'getting to know yourself' across the broader spectrum of your possible moods and mental states, so that you can learn to agree with yourself across mood changes and maintain a core identity and system of belief that stays mostly accessible no matter what you feel like at the moment.

People building unrealistic, detrimental expectations of you based on your behaviour on MDMA is possible, but not inherent to the drug use. All you have to do to avoid that is communicate; let them know you're under influence so they can place it. When doing drugs with people who already have a place in your life - which is when therapeutic reconnecting conversations are most useful - this shouldn't be any kind of trouble... and even halfway drug-wise strangers will know not to expect people they met in states of euphoria at clubs and raves to act quite the same elsewhere.

[nowayout]

Anecdotally some people go into profound, even dangerous depressions coming off recreational ecstacy. There are neurotoxicity issues as well. It is still a dangerous drug that would best be used under professional guidance.

[stablemind]

Street E sent me straight into the shit hole. Well, I have to thank it for finally exposing my disorder since it exacerbated all my symptoms. I urge anyone to use this with caution, as it ain't always as nice as it seems.

[medievil]

According to the study's i saw poly drug use increased the risk of depression but when controlled for other drugs no association seems to have been made however the research showing just mdma use doesnt cause long term issues is limited.

[protoject]

my opinion is that neurotoxicity and tolerance to this drug will be associated with the size of dose, purity and the frequency used. For some reason I think using a dose 1/5th of a regular 100mg dose [20 mg or so depending on how you react], taken orally and not snorted, might be enough to have a therapeutic effect while being little enough not to induce much tolerance or toxicity problems. When I say therepeutic, I don't mean in the sense of a Psychedelic being used , or a drug being used along with a clinician who helps you work through psychological problems or to be a supportive guide for the experience. I think, those elements can be very useful and important, but when i talk "therepeutically" i mean that you could probably have a therepeutic benefit in your everyday working and waking life, or , less frequently than every day [perhaps every 3rd day for example]. If you're not a frequent drug user or abuser I think the effectiveness wouldn't diminish and you could still receive some kind of effect. It's possible for someone, maybe not possible for others. This is all Hearsay from the imaginary person of the Brains of Protoject. . . not to be mistaken as medical advice.

Edited by protoject, 09 September 2012 - 04:35 PM.

[Major Legend]

That's not entirely and/or necessarily true. Yes, the memories of what you did on MDMA, and consequently the skills learned from your actions, will be less accessible from a sharply different state of mind, but they won't be gone entirely. Regular users of MDMA in particular tend to learn that the state of mind they reach on it is not a distinct thing entirely from their personality/mood when sober, but that rather both are points on a spectrum, which you can explore until the dots are seamlessly connected as doses of various potencies and various states of memory and afterglow come and go. One of the big psychological benefits of recreational drug use is 'getting to know yourself' across the broader spectrum of your possible moods and mental states, so that you can learn to agree with yourself across mood changes and maintain a core identity and system of belief that stays mostly accessible no matter what you feel like at the moment.

People building unrealistic, detrimental expectations of you based on your behaviour on MDMA is possible, but not inherent to the drug use. All you have to do to avoid that is communicate; let them know you're under influence so they can place it. When doing drugs with people who already have a place in your life - which is when therapeutic reconnecting conversations are most useful - this shouldn't be any kind of trouble... and even halfway drug-wise strangers will know not to expect people they met in states of euphoria at clubs and raves to act quite the same elsewhere.

Thats a fascinating way to look at it, and certainly why drug users tend to have a different mindset to straight people, however i wonder where you got the idea of the multiple connecting dots on different levels of serotonin i find it interesting but hardly therapuetic if not frustrating that my perception would go upwards and then downwards below baseline to anxiety and depression ( depending on dosage of course).

Pure mdma strength should not be under estimated to people without tolerance. I can attest this is one of the harder drugs.

Medievil any ideas on what is good to prevent neurotoxicitty? Is it caused by sertonin system damage or more oxidative stress? I suppose at low doses the key culprit would be oxidative stress.

[medievil]

Combination of hyperthermia and oxidative stress, id recommened something like curcumin or other sups that are both neuroprotectants and anti oxidants to prevent neurotoxic damage.

[Raza]

Thats a fascinating way to look at it, and certainly why drug users tend to have a different mindset to straight people, however i wonder where you got the idea of the multiple connecting dots on different levels of serotonin i find it interesting but hardly therapuetic if not frustrating that my perception would go upwards and then downwards below baseline to anxiety and depression ( depending on dosage of course).

Just something I realized after so long of doing drugs. With your first dose of MDMA especially, you tend to get joinked into a completely different state of mind where barely anything from the rest of your life seems relevant. I personally believe that's what responsible for the 'magical first roll' phenomenon; you have no frame of reference for that state of mind. Beginner's Mind for the party in question. After a while though, you begin to orient yourself and start consolidating, becoming more and more 'like yourself' on the drug, and your everyday personality with all your everyday worries and prejudices start seeping through. Having expectations of the state that are no longer being completely met also doesn't help.

Many people resent this, because fun is then no longer automatic, the drugged state less of an escape - but it's not just bad things that start crossing over. Consolidating your identity and frame of reference has many benefits as well, including the increasingly effective transfer of skills, and far less painful transitions as you learn to accept the mood change without running into conflicts with yourself. It goes beyond that though; you can transcend aspects of mental disorders and perspective itself with the right experiences and reconciliatory skills.

MDMA crashes and stimulant anxiety may not be pleasant, but these temporary, clearly drug-induced lows taught me a lot about how to recognize anxiety and alienation by the thought processes they encourage, which helps you catch yourself and take a step back when they come by (much more subtly) in your every day life and you're about to be a dick to someone or worrying about something way more than you need to. You'll be able to pinpoint the feeling and say, "Hey, I'm feeling anxious/unsympathetic towards people... maybe I'll pop a theanine or wait it out instead of having this argument/making this decision right now." I would call them therapeutic, in their own way.

Re: neurotoxicity - I've mostly seen oxidative stress and excitotoxicity suggested. Personally, I take vitamin C and milk thistle beforehand (strong antioxidants that help the brain and liver), and a crushed ibuprofen (anti inflammatory drugs help against excitotoxicity) if I notice myself going past a certain level of stimulation.

Edited by Raza, 10 September 2012 - 08:57 AM.

[Major Legend]

Everyone should read this really awesome thread on mdma cerebral damage, with some very recent studies on humans quoted:

http://www.longecity...ion-nootropics/

I want to say to everyone who is considering this for recreational or therepeutic use to stay away as much as you can from this

From what i gathered from reading, basically MDMA damages sertonin receptors in the thalamus and other areas of the brain, as serotonin neurons are hugely associated with memory and cognitive related tasks, it would explain why people become without a better word more mentally deficient after sustained use of MDMA, with many anecdotal experience reports online.

More importantly, two points, according to the studies quoted by the aforementioned thread. Though the damage on the brain was dose dependent, the damage starts at very low dose in humans in multiple studies, in a late nineties studies i read two pills a month for a year is enough to bring peoples scores down to nearly half of their own results in cognitive tests given preusage (only 2 weeks of recovery accounted for in that study though) In other very recent studies (2008ish) there were clear signs of grey matter dissapearing, as well as other signs of permanent structural deficiencies.

The second point is that in a long term study that lasted 7 years on primates the serotonin showed little to no recovery in terms of large radius reinnervation, meaning the neruons were unable to form far connections, this means recovery is not only slow, but permanent regeneration is near impossible naturally.

Though poly drug use may contribute to the results of some studies being over exaggerated there is absolutely no doubt that MDMA causes hard neruotoxic damage by itself, there are some polymorphisms that may attenuate or not even experience this kind of neurotoxicity. Due to the way MDMA does damage it is certainly possible that problems do not show up in normal cognitive tests but in more complex tasks.

Anecdotally without going into my personal life, MDMA even in very low doses certainly has a retardation effect in complex tasks, appreciation of art and other higher functions that i have never experienced, these are not detectable but if you build complex visual references before and after of a complex experience such as remembering the sequencial order of a delicate action movie set piece this becomes immedietely apparent during attempting to recall, tested two weeks apart between remembering and recall each time before and after MDMA usage. Recall of specific details become harder, chronology becomes more confused and importantly the recall of abstract and symbolic elements/transitions and timing becomes much impaired.

Combined with its amazing ability to elevate people out of social misery, i find this drug very dangerous, for those who can't be stoppd we can think about antioxidants and mitochondrial support, with the goal of reinnervation and receptor regeneration after usage still i think its better to stay away from it, there is no proof any of our current noots or supplements can repair the very specific damage that MDMA causes structurally, and these damages are very likely not noticebly easily until its too late.

Any suggestions on the antioxidant side and neurogenesis side for sertonin would be very helpful.

Edited by Major Legend, 20 September 2012 - 02:34 PM.

[stablemind]

Yup listen to this guy ^^. There are soooo many other options to treat social anxiety which are far safer for long term use. MDMA basically puts your brain on over drive and kills brain cells. I remember my brain feeling super wired after popping. It felt like I fried some parts of my brain. Thankfully it messed up my head so much that I sought regular treatment.

[Raptor87]

Yup listen to this guy ^^. There are soooo many other options to treat social anxiety which are far safer for long term use. MDMA basically puts your brain on over drive and kills brain cells. I remember my brain feeling super wired after popping. It felt like I fried some parts of my brain. Thankfully it messed up my head so much that I sought regular treatment.

We are talking pure MDMA here which is not dangerous in supervised conditions.

[Assured]

We use to use a drug called M1, it did reduce social awkwardness.

[Adamzski]

I think I would be a different person today if I had not experienced the warmth and connectedness of E!
The problem is that many friends of mine ended up not being able to go out without being totally off there faces,,, 3-4-7 pills.. desperatly finding someone to get on off or no fun..

My most amazing experience was horse tranquilizers, I was put into a completely empty world, I draw on this experience of nothingness when I am very stressed out. It probably almost killed me thou as I can remember people talking about calling ambulances but I felt no bad effects at the time and recovered fine that night, It is the only time in my life when I have felt nothing, yes there is no point of reference to this.

[Major Legend]

I can empathise, having parts of your brain put to sleep, creates new perspective, in which you learn about the way your brain(soul) works, seeing how your perception is really a formation of multiple parts responsible for different functions like time awareness is fascinating.

However this is not an endorsement for taking drugs, the effects of any powerful drugs like E, and so on has just created a disconnect for me between how i'm "supposed" to be and how I really am. I am not a naturally sociable person so to know that other people live in different worlds (more sociable) does not bring comfort to me. The fact that the brain is just like a computer and once its gone its gone does not comfort me.

Taking drugs creates a subsequent disconnect with people who have never done drugs as well, everything you do becomes a shadow of what could be an experience being pumped full of dopamine and serotonin, we forget the natural high, I have long forgotten the anchors and straightness to the perception I once had about myself and about the world, and thats not a good thing. Uncertainty (because you become more aware of other peoples state) and awareness often creates doubt/analysis, this leads to a lack of confidence and ultimately could lead to anxiety if its not controlled appropriately.

Ignorance is bliss, some of us are lucky we can escape, and treat it as an enlightening experience but there are many who can't fight the lure. You just need to hang around drugs forums to see how many people are hopelessly glued to these substances like MDMA, and convincing themselves that these drugs are not causing damage, despite a decades worth of studies showing they do.

Again if anyone considers doing this kind of therapy, I highly suggest using a "cocktail" of preventative measure.

Also! To give a perspective of how damaging MDMA can be. I've noticed how there are a lot of people doing methamphetamine/amphetamine daily or multiple times a weekly and still live normal lives, i've never heard anyone drop MDMA every day, even every weekend is considered heavy usage on the drugs forums.

[medievil]

"I want to say to everyone who is considering this for recreational or therepeutic use to stay away as much as you can from this
"
Well i dont think you can say that with treatment resistance being a big problem, i allways avoid saying to avoid something but instead i will elaborate on the risk. If MDMA can cure me for example of PTSD wich is downside cognitive decline thats a no brainer.

Emotional issues are far more severe then mild cognitive decline.

[Adamzski]

I've noticed how there are a lot of people doing methamphetamine/amphetamine daily or multiple times a weekly and still live normal lives, i've never heard anyone drop MDMA every day, even every weekend is considered heavy usage on the drugs forums.

Very true, its an extremely damaging drug, many people can live relatively normal lives while even being addicted to heroin and crack.. but I also have never seen someone come through a period of even just once a week heavy E use.. and daily, I really couldnt see how anyones brain could hold up to a few weeks of daily MDMA.

[Polaris]

This is an interesting topic that brings back vivid memories. I would like to add my own experience. I have done many drugs, but I think the repercussions from MDMA were the worst of all of them, although at the height of the high it seemed to be the most blissful of the many natural or synthetic substances I have ever ingested. If I had taken pure MDMA in a supervised condition in the most favorable circumstances, certainly that would have been better than getting whatever I could get. Even so, when you artificially lift yourself up to such an incredible high, you must come down. The extreme drop is quite harsh.

Without getting in too deep, you not only deal with physical consequences, you can also open yourself up to psychic influences because you may have created tears or holes in your aura, your electromagnetic, energetic protective web or field. This is your filter that protects you from negative external influences. People think they are only dealing with the effects of physical chemicals here, but you cannot separate the physical from the metaphysical. There are physical toxic effects, as well as psychic toxic effects. These things happen folks. I will not vouch for everyone’s experience, since some people can be much more resilient than others, but this is a powerful drug we are dealing with, and this is more likely to happen than not.

I compare the artificial high from MDMA with reaching higher states of consciousness, naturally, such as in a kundalini awakening. The whole awakening cycle can lead to a burnout, where the body’s resources have been used up to climb the heights of the awakening peak. What goes up must come down. Of course, it doesn’t have to be a terrible experience, but what is called the “Dark Night of the Soul” is usually experienced. I liken it to the darkest hour before the dawn of a beautiful new day. This is a natural cycle, and for many, very appropriate because it can provide a profound and valuable growth experience.

I experienced this Dark Night of the Soul at the tail end of my MDMA addiction. I think this was the lowest point of my entire life, and there were many, many low points before and after that event, so the experience had a lot of competition for that slot! I experienced years of depression before that, but the MDMA pushed me to my rock bottom point. Of course, I don’t regret that because I figured out how to put the pieces of myself back together and to rebuild something new. It did take years, though.

Under perfect controlled circumstances, perhaps MDMA could be helpful to achieve a specific purpose, with the support of others, with all the right nutrients and a healthy physical foundation, but I think there are few who are fortunate enough to have all of these elements in place. But, I do understand that some people are in serious need of drastic measures when nothing else has worked to resolve intolerable suffering. Some people may need crazy things to happen to wake them up or heal them. To that, I leave you with the words of a master:

“Use only that which works, and take it from any place you can find it.”
-Bruce Lee, Tao of Jeet Kune Do

Edited by Polaris, 18 October 2012 - 12:58 AM.

[Raptor87]

Some people may need crazy things to happen to wake them up or heal them. To that, I leave you with the words of a master:

“Use only that which works, and take it from any place you can find it.”
-Bruce Lee, Tao of Jeet Kune Do

I like that. And it is so right. It's not until we hit rock bottom, suffer from a crisis or go through something out of the ordinary that opens our minds up and kills our defences in order to build something new. Man life can be hard.