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CR did not extend lifespan in latest primate study

calorie restriction monkey

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#31 niner

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 02:01 AM

I currently don't see any supps out there that have shown any credible evidence that they can lengthen max lifespan either. ... the buckyball experiment seems flawed


The problem that I worry about with fullerenes is exactly the same as what might be the case in this primate CR study: Long lived primates have better endogenous antioxidant defenses than rodents, so they aren't likely to see as much benefit from an antioxidant intervention, nor from CR, for similar reasons. Still, the Baati experiment worked better in rats than any supplement ever, OR CR (AFAIK). So where's the flaw? I fail to see it. Small N isn't a flaw, given the magnitude of the effect.
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#32 rwac

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 02:17 AM

I currently don't see any supps out there that have shown any credible evidence that they can lengthen max lifespan either. ... the buckyball experiment seems flawed


The problem that I worry about with fullerenes is exactly the same as what might be the case in this primate CR study: Long lived primates have better endogenous antioxidant defenses than rodents, so they aren't likely to see as much benefit from an antioxidant intervention, nor from CR, for similar reasons. Still, the Baati experiment worked better in rats than any supplement ever, OR CR (AFAIK). So where's the flaw? I fail to see it. Small N isn't a flaw, given the magnitude of the effect.


I bet lab primates get fed better food in general than say rats, which get fed standard rat chow. This would point towards the ON being generally more important than CR as a part of CRON, and AgeVivo also noticed it.
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#33 BobSeitz

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 03:01 AM

As a former CRONie (Calorie Restriction with Optimal Nutrition), and still a borderline CRONie, I'd like to share a few thoughts.

What's dispiriting to me about this is that, although by now, there are other anti-aging intervention strategies, calorie restriction has been the most robust. If all else failed, you could always fall back on calorie restriction... only now, we know that you can't.

One ugly consequence of these National Institute on Aging calorie-restriction-in-primates results would seem to me to be the suggestion that we can't continue to apply the results of lifespan studies of short-lived animals to long-lived animals like humans. And that, I should think, makes it a lot slower and more expensive to evaluate aging interventions in humans.

Another startling consequence of the NIA study is the alleged decoupling of healthspan from lifespan. We might expect that animals (and people) that enjoy the health benefits that CR confers upon the animals that practice it would live longer than animals eating a healthy but somewhat-higher calorie diet. But the NIA study doesn't seem (at least to me) to support that expectation. (One noteworthy point: the control arm in the NIA study... unlike the University of Wisconsin Primate Center study... was 10% calorie restricted. The experimental arm was simply further restricted in caloric intake.)

So where do we go from here?

For me, these results raise new questions regarding the role of exercise, meditation, and protein intake in at least healthspan if not lifespan extensions in humans. Two "Idylls of the Tribe" when I joined the Calorie Restriction Society in 2004 were that:
(1) CRONies needed higher levels of protein intake than ad libbers because protein turnover was higher in calorie restricted animals, and
(2) CRONies should avoid or minimize exercise because (a) calorie restriction offered the same benefits as exercise without the exercise, and (b) mice on calorie restriction that exerted themselves didn't live quite as calorie restricted animals that ran treadmills.

The first of these fallacies was laid to rest in 2008 when Luigi Fontana (M. D., Ph. D.), et al, discovered that CRONies had elevated levels of IGF-1 (Insulin-like Growth Factor 1) which were attributable to our high-protein diets, whereas lowered levels of IGF-1 have characterized animals that have extended maximum lifespans: Long-term effects of calorie or protein restriction on serum IGF-1 and IGFBP-3 concentrations in humans.

The second fallacy became a fallacy only yesterday in that we now know that calorie restriction probably won't lead to meaningful lifespan extensions in humans, which means that exercise won't have the same meaning for us that it does for rodents.


It seems to me that there is a veritable fermentation of new anti-aging discoveries and possible interventions surfacing in the anti-aging field right now. Maybe the elimination of calorie restriction as a centerpiece in anti-aging interventions will clear the way for other anti-aging strategies to flourish, but right now, there's a gaping hole, I think, where CR lately stood.

Edited by Michael, 01 September 2012 - 06:41 PM.

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#34 Matt

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 03:39 AM

Another startling consequence of the NIA study is the alleged decoupling of healthspan from lifespan


If you look at the 'health' of the CR animals their results were far from impressive. CR females having significantly higher Triglycerides than the female control group. Cholesterol levels not improving in the female group. No improvement in fasting serum glucose for the adult onset rhesus monkeys. I'm not aware of the typical difference in lifespan between female and male rhesus monkeys but 27.8 years vs 35.4 years. I know that for most species it's the females that typically live longer. The monkeys according to Dr Luigi Fontana did not show the same hormonal changes with their IGF-1 as is proven over and over again to be important in longevity in animals and in humans. The young-onset CR group looks fairly good but is not really outperforming the controls. Zero incidence of cancer is impressive though and the survival curve looks better for the younger group . Quality of nutrition of obviously an important factor; we know already that putting humans on a western diet but reducing their Calories does not produce then huge effects than CRON provides. Also as I said before; the control group received the exact same diet thus being supersupplemeted and the CR group not. We don't know how the effect of being locked up for life would have on longevity (or now do we?). Depression could be a factor and ameliorate some longevity benefit of CR. You know there are many variables that can affect lifespan studies which are not easy to control for. It is proven that humans do respond better (at all ages) than these rhesus monkeys. It's surprising to see the two case of diabetes in teh CR group. As well as CVD. It seems the Wisconsin CR group are doing better when it comes to health - for the moment at least.

Don't discount CR yet because these animals were in my opinion not responding to CR how rodents and how humans are in terms of markers of disease. There are things that can influence the effect CR has on lifespan. Just as an example (I'm sure it's not the case in this study); Even ambient room temperature can affect the cancer incidence and reverse the anti-tumor effect of CR "Storage at 30C largely reversed the early antilymphoma effect of CR in C57BL mice, reducing the 47% increase in the 50% survival found in CR
mice to just 4% for the CR/30C group." http://www.cryonet.o...p.cgi?msg=10019

The answers are somewhere in the details and design of the study. Don't get out the Cookies just yet! ;)

Edited by Matt, 31 August 2012 - 04:17 AM.

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#35 Brett Black

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 03:51 AM

Posted Image


Hahaha. Wrong beacon though.

Try this one:
Posted Image
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#36 BobSeitz

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 04:11 AM

Thanks, Matt! That's a reassuring reply (:-))I'll rest better after that.
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#37 DR01D

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 04:17 AM

CR combined with exercise and strength training might get you to 90, 100 or maybe even a little further. Jack LaLanne made it to 96 and he had amazing health until his last couple of years.

However if you want to live to 120+... I don't think so. Somewhere in history monks or some other religious group that practiced CR would have figured out how to live to 120+ and they would have passed this info down from generation to generation. CR would have been discovered centuries ago. Maybe even thousands of years ago.

The study results don't surprise me.

None of this turns me off on CR. Living healthy into my 90s sounds good to me.

Edited by DR01D, 31 August 2012 - 04:20 AM.

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#38 Matt

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 04:31 AM

Staying Physically Active, Socially Engaged Improves Longevity
http://www.webmd.com...d-up-to_6-years
"Half lived for 90 years or longer, with women being more likely to survive to this age than men."

Looking forward to hearing what Michael has to say!

#39 DLR

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 10:48 AM

Stephan from Whole Heart Source weighs in: Does Calorie Restriction Extend Lifespan in Mammals?


If you look at the evidence (articles published), Stephan from Whole Heart Source is citing the SAME two articles I talked about. The article by Liao I already told you that is flawed (read my previous post with the commentary in another published article). The second one is a good one (or so it seems to me), but it doesn't take into account that wild mice eat 20 per cent less than lab mice, and that may be 40 per cent restriction might be equal to the 60 per cent restriction we find in lab mice (that ad lib eat an awful lot), and therefore this might be too much for wild mice (approaching the critical 65 percent degree of restriction, which is the maximum CR proven to be working in lab mice under certain circumstances). The Harper article suggests that 40 percent CR may be too much in WILD mice, who eat 20 per cent less than lab mice,. Also, the article does talk about these issues and states that it may be a limitation, since we don't know whether a less severe degree of restriction would extend lifespan in wild mice (I cannot edit a post more than once)

So he only has one article to contradict all the evidence on CR in mice, and only to suggest that 40 percent CR may be too much in lab mice, since the do not eat so much as the lab mice that are ad lib. Currently I haven't seen any CR studies on wild mice using less severe levels of restriction, such as the 25 or 30 per cent we see in CR humans. What's more, it's just one article. As of now, we have two articles that do no indicate that CR works. The one by Harper in mice and the NIA one in primates.

If anyone has found other articles whose results don't support CR, I'd be very willing to read them.

Edited by Michael, 01 September 2012 - 06:36 PM.


#40 niner

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 11:30 AM

We don't know how the effect of being locked up for life would have on longevity (or now do we?). Depression could be a factor and ameliorate some longevity benefit of CR. ... it's surprising to see the two case of diabetes in teh CR group. As well as CVD.

Don't discount CR yet because these animals were in my opinion not responding to CR how rodents and how humans are in terms of markers of disease.


The bizarrely bad health of these animals, along with their lousy markers compared to humans on CR suggests that this study has low relevance to humans on CR. I think the depression argument is kind of a straw-grasp, as the controls were similarly caged.

Hahaha. Wrong beacon though.


LOL!
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#41 Matt

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 12:30 PM

Right. Look at the fasting glucose level rise in the CR monkeys just as the ad lib group for Males *shrug* see attached file. To me it looks like they screwed up. They didn't respond in the same way mice do and even humans are. The female survival curves look terrible also. Look at the fasting serum Triglycerides for the female CR monkeys. :o It seems monkeys are being killed off early by a crappy diet? lol


Figure 1 | (left column a) Survival curve and triglycerides, cholesterol and glucose levels for
old-onset monkeys.


Figure 2 | (right columns a/b) Survival curves and glucose and triglycerides levels for youngonset
monkeys

Attached Files


Edited by Matt, 31 August 2012 - 12:39 PM.


#42 nowayout

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 12:54 PM

Right. Look at the fasting glucose level rise in the CR monkeys just as the ad lib group for Males *shrug* see attached file. To me it looks like they screwed up. They didn't respond in the same way mice do and even humans are. The female survival curves look terrible also. Look at the fasting serum Triglycerides for the female CR monkeys. :o It seems monkeys are being killed off early by a crappy diet? lol


I doubt that, since the old-onset monkeys did have a quite dramatic beneficial response to the diet, and it was the same diet. (It still didn't extend their average lifespan, though).

This suggests something interesting, namely that starting CR too young may "immunize" you against some of the benefits of CR as reflected in biomarkers. This kind of reminds me of that rodent experiment that found that a course of ALA early in life also "immunized" them against benefiting from CR.

#43 nowayout

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 12:58 PM

It seems that maybe the conclusion we can draw from the two studies is that an ad-lib diet high in sugar will shorten lifespan.

That is not really a big surprise.

I am not familiar with the literature, but could this perhaps have been all there was to CR studies all along?

#44 Matt

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 01:08 PM

This study is the low sugar diet (but the diet wasn't perfect) and has show a couple cases of young-onset CR developing diabetes. The Wisconsin study is high sugar and have zero cases of diabetes in their CR group. Again *shrug* xD I'm puzzled by the inconsistencies between the groups and between the sexes in how they responded to CR. These are not typical responses of animals on CR. Whether it's early-onset or late.

I saw Michael post on the CR lists. He's going to write about it soon apparently. Hurry up! :p

Edited by Matt, 31 August 2012 - 01:14 PM.


#45 Mind

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 06:40 PM

This study is the low sugar diet (but the diet wasn't perfect) and has show a couple cases of young-onset CR developing diabetes. The Wisconsin study is high sugar and have zero cases of diabetes in their CR group. Again *shrug* xD I'm puzzled by the inconsistencies between the groups and between the sexes in how they responded to CR. These are not typical responses of animals on CR. Whether it's early-onset or late.

I saw Michael post on the CR lists. He's going to write about it soon apparently. Hurry up! :p


Puzzling, certainly, but disappointing as well because this has to be one of the better-monitored long-term well-designed CR studies ever conducted. If CR was a magic bullet, the diet would not matter, only total calories. Still, I think the fact that many CRONies exercise, eat very nutritious food, and lead fairly happy stimulating lives, makes a big difference. I would be willing to bet that human CRONies will have better survival rates than non-CR but it might not be as good as what many people were hoping for.

One other thing that seems to pop out again with this study is the late-life drop in health/survival. It seems when it happens, it happens fast. The CR monkeys had better health metrics - their healthspan was longer - but their lifespan was not. The C60 mice DID live a lot longer, but they all died at about the same time, which was interesting in itself. Elite human athletes maintain great health into old age, but when they go, the deteriorate fast (there is a graph/study of this here in the forum somewhere, posted by the late Chris Heward, but can't find it right now). Supercentenarians seem to not age very much (for decades sometimes), then suddenly deteriorate. What is the fundamental part of aging that we don't have a grasp of right now that causes the rapid deterioration? The "control group" of humans living normal overweight lives on the SAD diet deteriorate more gradually it seems. They have minor problems in their 40s, significant surgery or disease in their 50s, hobble through their 60s in lots of pain, and barely make it to 70. It is easy to see the hows and whys of their gradual deterioration. For those who are focused like a laser beam on health (and animals in experiments), it seems they remain very healthy late into life with most major organs functioning pretty well, then boom...dead. Any ideas?
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#46 AgeVivo

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 07:32 PM

I did not know that CR animals suddenly deteriorate and die?!? If CR is especially protecting from some *slowly* deteriorating diseases (I am not sure about that) it could explain -- animals would mostly die from remaining, more rapidly killing, diseases.

Concerning the not so great health in CR monkeys and even diabetes cases (in young CR animals !!!!????!!!!!?????????), could there be a pathogen in their group that could have lead to such effects? Just an idea that pops up when reading the thread.

Edited by AgeVivo, 31 August 2012 - 07:35 PM.


#47 stephen_b

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 08:04 PM

Zero incidence of cancer is impressive though and the survival curve looks better for the younger group .


I wonder if this is more an indictment of the role junk calories play in cancer.

#48 cheezeweezel

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 09:31 PM

Try this one:
Posted Image



A pair of ragged claws, scuttling across the floors of silent seas. (Prufrock via Shaka)

But let's be careful. He may be scrawnier than me, but he's way, way smarter than I'll ever be. I really really want MR to comment on the paper.

So don't annoy he-who-will-not-have-his-initials-spelled-out.

MR phone home.

- cw

#49 Chupo

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 01:07 AM

Dr. Rosedale's assessment:

We have received a lot of questions regarding this study pertaining to calorie restriction in rhesus monkeys. Here are a few quick, off-the-cuff thoughts that I will expand on at a later date.

It should be noted that there was a small reduction in mortality (24% in the control group versus 20% in the CR group in young onset CR initiation). Their results contrasted sharply with life prolonging affects seen in rhesus monkeys at the Wisconsin National Primate Research Center trial, where 37% of monkeys in the control group died compared to 13% in the CR group at the time of publication a few years ago..


One factor that is mentioned in this NIA study to try to explain why their results contrasted quite significantly from the primate study done at the Wisconsin Primate Research Center is that “diet composition may strongly affect the life prolonging effect of calorie restriction in a long-lived nonhuman primate”. I would have to see exactly what they were feeding the monkeys at each of the centers to ascertain a difference, however, I do know that they were feeding the monkeys approximately a 60% carbohydrate diet at NIA. That may be way too much to ascertain a clear benefit of CR to life extension. Additionally, triglycerides increased throughout life in both the control and calorie restricted groups. This indicates that burning energy from fat was quite limited in both groups. I believe that what I have said for two decades is very true; that health and longevity will be determined by the proportion of fat verses sugar one burns over a life time. The monkeys in this study were likely still being forced to burn sugar and minimal fat as their primary fuel, secondary to the high carbohydrate diet they were still being fed.


I have long maintained that it is not calorie restriction but carbohydrate and protein restriction that mediates effects of longevity, and that typical calorie restriction reduces calories from both proteins and carbohydrates to a very limited extent. I feel one can go much further in showing benefits of CR with a very low carbohydrate, high-fat, and low to moderate protein diet.


It is now becoming known that the health and life prolonging effects of calorie restriction are not due primarily to calorie restriction per se but are mediated through lowering of metabolic pathway signaling, namely insulin, mTOR, and likely leptin in “higher” animals that use fat as a primary fuel. Therefore the macronutrient content of the diet is extremely important, however this was not well known to the experimenters when these rhesus monkey experiments were initiated over two decades ago.
Click on the link below to see the study.
Impact of caloric restriction on health and survival in rhesus monkeys from the NIA study


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#50 BobSeitz

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 02:54 AM

While we're waiting for Michael (who knows immeasurably more about this than I do), here are a few further comments on calorie restriction in humans.

Luigi Fontana defines two types of aging. Primary aging is the inexorable underlying aging process whose rate increases exponentially with age, at least until late in life. It's species-specific. Secondary aging is, perhaps, more environmentally modifiable than primary aging, and is related to health span. In the past, although the average life span was quite short, there were individuals who lived to ripe old ages. For example, Micheangelo was 89 when he died. Isaac Newton made it to 84. Copernicus made it to 80. Galileo expired at 78. These lifespans were far less common in that time frame than they are today, but they did occur. Hundreds of years ago, the survival curve began declining in the twenties and fell more or less steadily into old age. What has changed dramatically is the fraction of us who make it to 80 or 90 thanks to advances in public and private health... antibiotics, sanitation, better nutrition, medical advances. In other words, the rate of secondary aging has slowed resoundingly, squaring up the survival curve. More and more, people... those with the right genes and/or (maybe) healthy lifestyles... are living into their eighties and nineties. But in the meantime, all their pieces and parts are quietly aging, and like the wonderful one-horse shay, once a stringent challenge comes along like a stroke or a heart attack (or even an infection), other organs fail. (At least, this is my fantasy about what might be happening.)

The slowing of primary aging is, as I understand it, much harder to effect than the slowing of secondary aging. Calorie restriction (or maybe protein or even methionine restriction) slows the underlying rate of aging in animals (and, we'd like to think, in humans). By now, other interventions have been found to slow aging in, e. g., roundworms (C. elegans), but calorie restriction is, as I understand it, the best-tested and best understood of these lifespan extension techniques.

Another consideration regarding calorie restriction is that the payoff is less when CR begins after an animal is full-grown than it does when calorie restriction starts just after weaning. When CR starts in infancy, the animal grows up small and stunted compared to fully-fed peers, and life-long calorie restriction can yield greater maximum life extensions than it can when CR starts in adulthood.

At the last (4th) Calorie Restriction Conference that I was able to attend, in April, 2006, the buzz among the animal researchers was that the National Institute on Aging calorie restriction experiment was going very, very badly. Their rhesus monkeys were said to be a very angry lot, throwing their food at their keepers and at the walls. Also, as I recall, there were problems getting them to eat. I remember wondering at the time whether they were going to be able to complete the study. Michael can speak to this a lot better than I can, but it was a topic of coffee-table conversation at the time.

At that conference, there were no fewer than four papers giving (different) reasons why calorie restriction wouldn't be expected to work in humans. One of these, written by Aubrey de Grey, argued that from an evolutionary perspective, calorie restriction wouldn't have provided for more than a season or two of lean times. Calorie restriction wouldn't be expected, he suggested, to add more than a year or two to human lifespans. He and other researchers also noted that the larger the animal, the less the gain from calorie restriction in keeping with this thesis that CR won't add more than a year or two to lifespans. One case in point is the 1987-2001 Purina Dog Chow longevity study of 24 25%-calorie-restricted Labrador Retrievers and 24 ad lib-fed controls. The study began when the dogs were three years old and continued until they all died. The median lifespan of the CR subset was 18 months longer than the median lifespan of the control group... an improvement of something like 13%. (Of course, both sets of dogs were fed ad lib until they were three years old.)

My private reaction to Dr de Grey's paper at the time was that the CR-induced, ten-to-fifteen-year improvement in humans in cardiovascular and other health metrics that Drs. John Holloszy and Luigi Fontana documented in their watershed paper in the April, 2004, issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences handily trumped arguments that CR doesn't work in humans. Drs. Holloszy and Fontana found that CR produces dramatic improvements in cardiovascular risk profiles among those of us who practice it. (My HDL levels jumped from around 50 before I went on CR into the 70's and 80's after that time. This spring, my total cholesterol was 169, my HDL was 73, my triglycerides were 38, and my fasting glucose was 81.)

Update: I just found a disquisition that I wrote in 2008 that summarizes some CR material, with hyperlinked references.

#51 Matt

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 04:45 AM

Thanks for that Bob. Another thing that I forgot to mention is that the the two studies also are different because in the Wisconsin study the monkey's receive treatment for any medical conditions (i.e diabetes, dental care etc...) whereas the NIA monkeys do not. Correct me if I'm wrong about this but this is what I heard. I also heard many years back that the study was going bad and this is why I'm really not surprised at this result. The lack of benefit of CR on glucose and lipids (or the mixed results in the groups) is not consistent with an animal being CR'd.

About the no incidence of cancer in the younger rhesus monkeys; Calorie intake early in life might a predicator of cancer later on. I think this is found in humans too.

A study was published a few years back which stated:

"*"A comparison between CON and CR groups revealed a convergence of caloric
intake between these diet groups at older ages evident in both sexes.
Although 30% restriction was imposed on the monkeys, CR males were eating
only 20% less than CON at 26 years of age, and CR females 12%
less than age-matched CON because of the reduced intake of the CON monkeys."

I don't know if they had corrected this by lowering the Calorie intake of the CR animals further?

Edited by Matt, 01 September 2012 - 04:45 AM.


#52 BobSeitz

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 04:45 AM

Afterthoughts: The linked article (above) gives a brief synopsis of the 1950's Spanish (Vallejo) study to which "nhenderson" refers on the first page of this thread, and also summarizes the results of the 1987 Purina Dog Chow study of calorie restriction in 24 Labrador retrievers.

#53 scottknl

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 05:24 AM

Thanks, Bob. I enjoyed reading your disquisition from 2008. The food throwing behaviour and mood etc does provide another source that says some thing wasn't right about the NIA study. So sad to see such a lot of $ and time wasted in this study.

#54 AgeVivo

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 06:44 AM

Puzzling, certainly, but disappointing as well because this has to be one of the better-monitored long-term well-designed CR studies ever conducted


It is interesting to see how the analysis of the quality of the experiments evolved in time:
1. great study done by the super knowledgeable NIA on the matter, this will definitely be the reference // the Wisconsin study is nice but of far less good quality
2. surprising results. is this real? where is the big error? // the Wisconsin study doesn't tell more given its less good quality
3. disapointing results. is CR not so robust?
4. disapointing results. is there an issue with the NIA study? // the Wisconsin study really isn't of help (high glycemic index, etc)
5. questionable results? minor issues detected in the NIA study // the Wisconsin study was different
6. minor NIA issues that could be important. ignore results? // the Wisconsin study wasn't perhaps so bad after all

This is the needed scientific way of reasoning and matt's comments are great; now the scientific way of reasoning continues: we don't want to stay at this point because we don't want to do cherry picking (take the results we like and discards the ones we don't like), so now we need to recognise that the NIA study was not so bad after all, and continue investigate what may have happened in BOTH experiments (boths could have confounding factors, leading to too positive or too negative results).

PS: do we have the frozen monkey bodies of the two experiments, to make analysis? (eg pathogen analysis; I know it can be done with a little drop of blood in rodents, with some sequencing, so it should be possible with a little sampling)

Edited by AgeVivo, 01 September 2012 - 06:51 AM.


#55 Matt

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 07:17 AM

Also a few points

- Lifespan for Rhesus monkey in captivity was previously thought to be 27 years. This study has raised it to 35 years average life expectancy (35-36 years for the CR group was my guess 5 years ago actually :p)
- Maximum lifespan was thought to be 40 years. We have 4 monkeys alive over 40 in the CR group and 1 in the control group.
- Antioxidants or other micronutrients synergistic with CR 10% and increasing lifespan to that of 30% CR'd monkeys?
- Wisconsin diet; Less age-related disease in CR monkeys with a very high sugar diet and are CR'd less than the NIA group.

Anyone have any data on things like fasting glucose, lipids, hormone profiles of the Wisconsin monkeys recorded and graphed over time? I'm guessing nothing is published and it's not included in the 2009 paper.

Also see attached file to look at age-related disease of NIA early-onset and Wisconsin monkeys adult-onset. Also genetic analysis will be done. That could give us some good clues. There is still a lot of good that can come through this negative result.

Attached Files


Edited by Matt, 01 September 2012 - 07:29 AM.


#56 AgeVivo

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 11:08 AM

I have superimposed the 2 pictures you posted, showing the evolution of the percentage of the monkey population free of age-related disease:
Attached File  monkey_diseases.gif   15.52KB   42 downloads

... the smooth curves are the high-sugar Wisconsin study... impressively above...

#57 kismet

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 12:19 PM

I am still very confused.

A study was published a few years back which stated:

"*"A comparison between CON and CR groups revealed a convergence of caloric
intake between these diet groups at older ages evident in both sexes.
Although 30% restriction was imposed on the monkeys, CR males were eating
only 20% less than CON at 26 years of age, and CR females 12%
less than age-matched CON because of the reduced intake of the CON monkeys."

I don't know if they had corrected this by lowering the Calorie intake of the CR animals further?

Yes, that's what a 2005 paper on a substudy of the NIA (Ingram et al. 2012-- THIS study) experiment says. So does or does it not apply to the WHOLE NIA cohort?

And then MR said in reagrds to the WisconsinNPRC cohort (Weindruch et al. 2009/08--OLDer study):

All:

The paper doesn't come out 'till tomorrow; there have been a couple of press leaks, but this is from Science's own website, and cites Weindruch directly:

Calorie-Counting Monkeys Live Longer
By Michael Torrice
ScienceNOW Daily News
9 July 2009


... monkeys can live to 40, and the average life span is 27 years. Now that the surviving monkeys have reached their mid- to late 20s ... Sixty-three percent of the calorie-restricted animals are still alive compared to only 45% of their free-feeding counterparts. For age-related deaths caused by illnesses such as cardiovascular disease and cancer ... 14 versus five monkeys [have died], respectively. Another seven control and nine lean monkeys died from causes not related to aging such as complications from anesthesia or injuries. Leaner diets also reduced muscle and brain gray matter deterioration, two conditions associated with aging. (The team has not yet studied cognitive differences between the two groups.)

Researchers who study aging are split on how much stock to put in the study. Leonard Guarente ... believes that not enough monkeys have died yet to make definitive comparisons between the two groups. ... On the other hand, molecular biologist Matthew Kaeberlein ... points to the difference in age-related deaths between the two groups as the more relevant statistic. "The fact that they see a significant effect at this point suggests there will be a robust effect when they finish the study," he says.

Weindruch and his collaborators plan to continue monitoring the remaining monkeys, which could stretch the study's length past 3 decades. ...

This is the best of the 3 nonhuman primate studies, and still has some flaws: the actual differnce in Calorie intake has dwindled down to almost zero, because none of the animals are very engaged with their rather monotonous and restricted lives, so the AL eaters aren't finishing their meals a lot of the time; the food isn't the best, nutritionally, and there were definitely some specific nutritional problems (such as excessive retinol, early on) in the diets; we don't really know how how to best care for and feed nonhuman primates, nor how long they can live in captivity, because so few have been studied; and above all, there's evidence that the AL group probably should've been restricted a bit more and the CRed animals restricted even further in turn (no effects on menstruation in the females, and probably some of the AL diabetes is related to modest overweight).

But this is the first solid evidence of a real mortality difference, and it looks substantial.

-Michael

WNPRC the best?! From the NIA paper I see many reasons why NIA* > WNPRC. Didn't read the methods papers--yet, but what makes WNPRC good? I only noted that they mention a phase-in period but NIA did not, so far. also interesting: on the superimposed graphs the "high sugar" WNPRC cohort is doing BETTER health-wise, no? Eyeballing the mortality curves gives the same idea, WNPRC > NIA. If we can get an NIA graph not split by sexes, could someone superimpose the two? But why is that happening?

Secondly, as Matt notes, how do the the caloric trajectories look, so do ad lib and CR intakes converge in both studies?

*at least when we compare young-onset cohorts

--
also, calm down, we are practically looking at two interim analyses ;.)

Edited by kismet, 01 September 2012 - 12:47 PM.


#58 Matt

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 12:54 PM

http://www.physiolog...s/Kemnitz35.pdf You should take a read of that. It explains the WNPRC study and also some results they had earlier on. A couple points from the WNPRC

"IGF-1 and IGFBP-3 were also
measured at the 42- and 54-month assessments in the Group 1 animals from our DR
study and no effect of DR was observed for either measure at these time points."

"In contrast to rodent studies, we found no evidence for a decrease in T3 with DR in monkeys (Fig. 7).
We have seen no consistent age-related trends in T3 levels for the animals in Group 1."

Both of these I believe are important for Calorie Restriction to work in animals. Not only that... IGF-1 and T3 are both implicated in longevity in humans (studies on centenarians and offspring of centenarians). No effect to these were found in this study from old data... but a reduction in T3 was found in the NIA study pmid:12189585 (old data). Humans show a reduction in IGF-1 with CR/low protein and also consistently show lower levels of T3. The monkeys studies do not show these changes that we expect when on CR. :-/

Edit: I really want to get the most recent data on the Rhesus monkey studies together so I can take a look at the differences between the studies. Also look at patterns in their weight, hormone, metabolic, lipid profiles, caloric intake over time for both studies.

Edited by Matt, 01 September 2012 - 01:28 PM.


#59 ajnast4r

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 04:42 PM

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

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#60 Michael

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 06:07 PM

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LOL!

The discussion to date has really been good, so I thank you all for it. I'm now working on a post for the SENS Research Foundation's CSO Blog, which will give my thoughts in extensive (excessive?) detail & documentation.
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