54 replies to this topic

[Maecenas]

would anybody explain me the strange thing I notice everytime I see running addicts? They often look a decade older. Their bodys look fit and young but their faces are worn and aged.
And it looks like the more you run the more wrinkles you get.Professional runners look older than simmers, ultramarathoners look older than marathoners. Until now I've heard different explanations of this strange phenomena. Among the most widespread are:
Sundamage
Low subcutaneous fat in face increases aging of skin
High carb consumption does the same
High cortisol levels
Bouncing movements of facial skin during running causes damage to skin and sagging

One of the mentioned causes deals exceptionally with running - bouncing of facial skin. Many plastic surgeons and cosmetologists talk about this (but they are the interested party). But does mild mechanical influence on facial skin cause a severe wrinkles and sagging over time? If sun damage makes 2/3 of skin damage maybe running and uv rays is the worst combination for prematurely aged face? Also low fat levels can be a culprit.So what do you think of this?
.

[malden]

pics or it dident happen

[hivemind]

High carb consumption does not do that.

[ta5]

Exercise causes oxidative stress. The net effect of moderate exercise is normally positive, but at some point it's too much. I saw some studies awhile back.Though, I don't know if anyone knows If or how much that affects a person face and skin. I think it may explain part of it.

Fat in your face actually looks better, softer, smoother, less wrinkles. Lower overall body fat does the opposite.

Or, maybe we are confusing cause and effect: maybe it's ugly people trying to compensate. :-)

[DAMI]

Runners probably spend a lot of time running outdoors, so they get a lot of sun damage.

[Marios Kyriazis]

It is clearly oxidative and other stress damage (like excessive glycation and AGE production which in turn worsens oxidative stress). Chronic pro-inflammatory agents are also increased. Prolonged and repeated exercise should only be confined to professional athletes who do this for a living. Normal everyday people should avoid regular strenuous exercise. There is nothing more pro-aging that a regular, hour-long jogging session.

[zorba990]

It is clearly oxidative and other stress damage (like excessive glycation and AGE production which in turn worsens oxidative stress). Chronic pro-inflammatory agents are also increased. Prolonged and repeated exercise should only be confined to professional athletes who do this for a living. Normal everyday people should avoid regular strenuous exercise. There is nothing more pro-aging that a regular, hour-long jogging session.

Doesn't appear to be true
http://www.anti-agin...-and-telomeres/

[Marios Kyriazis]

These studies compare exercise in already fit individual with untrained controls. Strenuous exercise in very fit people is not as stressful as strenuous exercise in unfit people.

In any case, the value of telomere length in relation to longevity has been questioned.

[Raptor87]

Weather conditions? Sun/rain/wind both dries out the skin, makes it peel and also there's the sun.

I know a lumberjack who worked in the woods for many years and damn, it looked like someone had been chopping his face for lumber!

Perhaps protective mask's could be something. I know there are special one's made för runners.

Edited by Brainfogged, 17 September 2012 - 08:14 PM.

[zorba990]

If that is the case I would think this guys would look horrible:
http://abcnews.go.co...section=1206833

There is an aspect to low bodyfat that produces some wrinkling of the face but I think he looks pretty good considering.

[nowayout]

Endurance sports done at the elite level is known to deplete sex hormones, including testosterone and estrogen. There are several studies confirming this phenomenon available on Pubmed, for example. It may be that chronically lowered sex hormones does a number on the skin in endurance athletes, since we know that, for example, skin aging is accelerated in postmenopausal women when estrogen falls.

Edited by viveutvivas, 17 September 2012 - 09:00 PM.

[1kgcoffee]

It is clearly oxidative and other stress damage (like excessive glycation and AGE production which in turn worsens oxidative stress). Chronic pro-inflammatory agents are also increased. Prolonged and repeated exercise should only be confined to professional athletes who do this for a living. Normal everyday people should avoid regular strenuous exercise. There is nothing more pro-aging that a regular, hour-long jogging session.

This.
I did a lot of running in my teen years. At the time, I was convinced that long distance running would prolong my life and turn me into a hard bodied badass, but it only made me feel worn out. I also noticed a significant loss of subcutaneous facial fat. Perhaps the results would have been better if I had trained differently.

Zorba,
you kidding? He looks like a crackhead.

Edited by 1kgcoffee, 17 September 2012 - 10:49 PM.

[zorba990]

It is clearly oxidative and other stress damage (like excessive glycation and AGE production which in turn worsens oxidative stress). Chronic pro-inflammatory agents are also increased. Prolonged and repeated exercise should only be confined to professional athletes who do this for a living. Normal everyday people should avoid regular strenuous exercise. There is nothing more pro-aging that a regular, hour-long jogging session.

This.
I did a lot of running in my teen years. At the time, I was convinced that long distance running would prolong my life and turn me into a hard bodied badass, but it only made me feel worn out. I also noticed a significant loss of subcutaneous facial fat. Perhaps the results would have been better if I had trained differently.

Zorba,
you kidding? He looks like a crackhead.

You are right, I was wrong.
Looking at recent pictures he doesn't look good.
http://t3.gstatic.co...8FqEzkHSfc3cpqv

My concern with that many miles was always loss of hormones (feminization for males) that I saw in the long distance runners I have run with.
When I first read his book I was impressed with how much muscle and how little aging he seemed to have.
http://manvsclock.co...t-happiness.jpg

But now the massive miles seem to have caught up with him. Ah well. Moderation....

Edited by zorba990, 18 September 2012 - 01:27 AM.

[1kgcoffee]

Disgusting how some will ruin themselves in an effort to be healthy. What a sad contrast.

[ta5]

It's interesting to look at Olympic track athletes. The shorter the race, the more muscular and healthy they look. The longer the race, the more emaciated and frail they look. (Not that they are frail, but they often look frail.) You can probably look an Olympic runner and guess the distance of their event pretty close. It seems remarkably linear, with few exceptions for the very top athletes.

[zorba990]

Weather conditions? Sun/rain/wind both dries out the skin, makes it peel and also there's the sun.

I know a lumberjack who worked in the woods for many years and damn, it looked like someone had been chopping his face for lumber!

Perhaps protective mask's could be something. I know there are special one's made för runners.

Like this?
http://www.ortablu.o...re-all-the-rage

[Raptor87]

There are different types. Here´s one for allergies.

http://www.respro.co.../sportsta_mask/

There´s for winter and other extreme conditions aswell.

A mask along with sunglasses and a ballcap and you are all set.

http://cdn.theatlant...oto02.photo.jpg

Edited by Brainfogged, 18 September 2012 - 01:18 PM.

[JLL]

It's interesting to look at Olympic track athletes. The shorter the race, the more muscular and healthy they look. The longer the race, the more emaciated and frail they look. (Not that they are frail, but they often look frail.) You can probably look an Olympic runner and guess the distance of their event pretty close. It seems remarkably linear, with few exceptions for the very top athletes.

Yep, sprinters = fit & healthy, long-distance runners = cancer patients.

I guess marathon is just about the worst exercise you can do, but I'm thinking even ordinary jogging might not be that good. Interval training FTW.

[Shepard]

There is nothing healthy about top-tier athletics, no matter the event tested. Sprinters don't only train intervals, anyway.

[Mind]

There is nothing healthy about top-tier athletics, no matter the event tested. Sprinters don't only train intervals, anyway.

Care to elaborate Shepard. I assume you are referring to "top-tier athletics" vs. longevity. My stab at it would be that training so intensely for so many years piles up the stress and wears out the body. Also, many of them consume enormous amounts of food and their metabolism is running flat out and thus they would probably acquire more cellular damage. Some in the "top-tier" also use PEDs that probably run counter to longevity.

[ta5]

Int' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://pmid.us/21618162']Int J Sports Med. 2011 Aug;32(8):644-7. Epub 2011 May 26.
Increased average longevity among the "Tour de France" cyclists.
Source
Department of Physiology, Faculty of Medicine, University of Valencia, Spain.
Abstract
It is widely held among the general population and even among health professionals that moderate exercise is a healthy practice but long term high intensity exercise is not. The specific amount of physical activity necessary for good health remains unclear. To date, longevity studies of elite athletes have been relatively sparse and the results are somewhat conflicting. The Tour de France is among the most gruelling sport events in the world, during which highly trained professional cyclists undertake high intensity exercise for a full 3 weeks. Consequently we set out to determine the longevity of the participants in the Tour de France, compared with that of the general population. We studied the longevity of 834 cyclists from France (n=465), Italy (n=196) and Belgium (n=173) who rode the Tour de France between the years 1930 and 1964. Dates of birth and death of the cyclists were obtained on December 31 (st) 2007. We calculated the percentage of survivors for each age and compared them with the values for the pooled general population of France, Italy and Belgium for the appropriate age cohorts. We found a very significant increase in average longevity (17%) of the cyclists when compared with the general population. The age at which 50% of the general population died was 73.5 vs. 81.5 years in Tour de France participants. Our major finding is that repeated very intense exercise prolongs life span in well trained practitioners. Our findings underpin the importance of exercising without the fear that becoming exhausted might be bad for one's health.
PMID: 21618162

→ source (external link)

[niner]

Our major finding is that repeated very intense exercise prolongs life span in well trained practitioners. Our findings underpin the importance of exercising without the fear that becoming exhausted might be bad for one's health.

So at least being in the Tour (in the pre-steroid era) doesn't kill you as rapidly as being a typical couch potato, but we don't know how they would compare to people with reasonable exercise programs.

[AgeVivo]

would anybody explain me the strange thing I notice everytime I see running addicts? They often look a decade older. Their bodys look fit and young but their faces are worn and aged.

Are you making that up based on a theory? Or do they really look older? Any sounds articles/statistics on the topic?


Because I have my own theory of ageing that would predict it, but I am not sure that they really look older.

Edited by AgeVivo, 18 September 2012 - 06:55 PM.

[Shepard]

Care to elaborate Shepard. I assume you are referring to "top-tier athletics" vs. longevity. My stab at it would be that training so intensely for so many years piles up the stress and wears out the body. Also, many of them consume enormous amounts of food and their metabolism is running flat out and thus they would probably acquire more cellular damage. Some in the "top-tier" also use PEDs that probably run counter to longevity.

Sure, I'm talking about elite level athletes, not casual sports. When people make comparisons with athletes of particular sports, they naturally choose the high profile individuals. Sport is selection, and will select for all the various factors that makes one successful. Usain Bolt would still possess a physique that is unattainable for almost everyone even if he hadn't become the greatest sprinter the species has ever produced.

It's hard to compare something as fuzzy as longevity (or long-term health, really) with the particular sport, other than we can probably say that American football is the best way to die young in a predictable fashion. The diet, training, lack of strong social structure, psychological stressors, drug use, joint injury, inevitable surgeries, etc. are probably not your best bet. I say that it's antithetical to health because sport is now profession. Long-term considerations are thrown out the window. Drug use is mandatory, and it's so much more prevalent and worse than most can imagine.

Further note, it's not just in high-level athletes that you see destructive behaviors. Now that Master's sections of various sports have popped up, the people who never made it to the top have the opportunity to still compete as they get older. Acclaim within a community without monetary compensation is still enough to drive the aforementioned behaviors. And when you add in the fact that these people likely weren't the genetic cream of the crop in the first place and they're past their prime..,..The ego needs to be kept in check in situations like this.

Edited by Shepard, 18 September 2012 - 07:30 PM.

[nowayout]

... we can probably say that American football is the best way to die young in a predictable fashion.

Hmm...

http://www.usatoday....nger/54847564/1

A records-based study of retired players conducted by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) concludes that they have a much lower death rate than men in the general population, contrasting the notion that football players don't live as long.

Edited by viveutvivas, 18 September 2012 - 08:57 PM.

[Shepard]

... we can probably say that American football is the best way to die young in a predictable fashion.

Hmm...

http://www.usatoday....nger/54847564/1

Looks like it's not as bad as I thought. My belief was apparently based on the the common opinion more than anything else. <I tracked down where the oft-quoted 52-58 numbers originated from. Seems to be an opinion piece by two MDs from UNC who have been involved with concussion research in the NFL with no reference or further backing for their numbers.>

Looking at the paper, the authors give a lot of weight to the fact that rates of smoking have consistently been much lower in players than general population. You also see lower levels of other things like diabetes in football players which is easily understandable. Cardiomyopathy is higher in defensive line players and players with the most playing time than population. Nervous system and muskuloskeletal disorders are higher than general population (3x for general neurodegenerative mortality, 4x for AD and ALS).

Edited by Shepard, 19 September 2012 - 01:38 AM.

[Maecenas]

would anybody explain me the strange thing I notice everytime I see running addicts? They often look a decade older. Their bodys look fit and young but their faces are worn and aged.

Are you making that up based on a theory? Or do they really look older? Any sounds articles/statistics on the topic?


Because I have my own theory of ageing that would predict it, but I am not sure that they really look older.

I'm concerned not as much about their health, although it's also necessary, but more about how they look. As I know, the average lifespan among elite endurance athletes is 3-5 years longer than among general population. I think that it's already scientific fact that moderate aerobic exercise prolongs life, but it somehow eliminates your chances to live your maximum years.
I make that up based on observations, so you can disagree. I've seen many professional athletes in real life, I also evaluated hundreds of photos of professional marathoners, cyclists, footballers and swimmers. And in my observations marathoners tend to look 5-6 years older than they are, but swimmers look their age.
And what is your theory?

Edited by Maecenas, 19 September 2012 - 08:25 AM.

[GhostBuster]

Int J Sports Med. 2011 Aug;32(8):644-7. Epub 2011 May 26.
Increased average longevity among the "Tour de France" cyclists.
Source
Department of Physiology, Faculty of Medicine, University of Valencia, Spain.
Abstract
It is widely held among the general population and even among health professionals that moderate exercise is a healthy practice but long term high intensity exercise is not. The specific amount of physical activity necessary for good health remains unclear. To date, longevity studies of elite athletes have been relatively sparse and the results are somewhat conflicting. The Tour de France is among the most gruelling sport events in the world, during which highly trained professional cyclists undertake high intensity exercise for a full 3 weeks. Consequently we set out to determine the longevity of the participants in the Tour de France, compared with that of the general population. We studied the longevity of 834 cyclists from France (n=465), Italy (n=196) and Belgium (n=173) who rode the Tour de France between the years 1930 and 1964. Dates of birth and death of the cyclists were obtained on December 31 (st) 2007. We calculated the percentage of survivors for each age and compared them with the values for the pooled general population of France, Italy and Belgium for the appropriate age cohorts. We found a very significant increase in average longevity (17%) of the cyclists when compared with the general population. The age at which 50% of the general population died was 73.5 vs. 81.5 years in Tour de France participants. Our major finding is that repeated very intense exercise prolongs life span in well trained practitioners. Our findings underpin the importance of exercising without the fear that becoming exhausted might be bad for one's health.
PMID: 21618162

→ source (external link)

Cyclists are quite muscular. My guess is that sports that allows you to maintain/increase muscle mass are healthier than sports that deplete it.

Edited by GhostBuster, 23 November 2012 - 05:11 PM.

[hivemind]

Int J Sports Med. 2011 Aug;32(8):644-7. Epub 2011 May 26.
Increased average longevity among the "Tour de France" cyclists.
Source
Department of Physiology, Faculty of Medicine, University of Valencia, Spain.
Abstract
It is widely held among the general population and even among health professionals that moderate exercise is a healthy practice but long term high intensity exercise is not. The specific amount of physical activity necessary for good health remains unclear. To date, longevity studies of elite athletes have been relatively sparse and the results are somewhat conflicting. The Tour de France is among the most gruelling sport events in the world, during which highly trained professional cyclists undertake high intensity exercise for a full 3 weeks. Consequently we set out to determine the longevity of the participants in the Tour de France, compared with that of the general population. We studied the longevity of 834 cyclists from France (n=465), Italy (n=196) and Belgium (n=173) who rode the Tour de France between the years 1930 and 1964. Dates of birth and death of the cyclists were obtained on December 31 (st) 2007. We calculated the percentage of survivors for each age and compared them with the values for the pooled general population of France, Italy and Belgium for the appropriate age cohorts. We found a very significant increase in average longevity (17%) of the cyclists when compared with the general population. The age at which 50% of the general population died was 73.5 vs. 81.5 years in Tour de France participants. Our major finding is that repeated very intense exercise prolongs life span in well trained practitioners. Our findings underpin the importance of exercising without the fear that becoming exhausted might be bad for one's health.
PMID: 21618162

→ source (external link)

Cyclists are quite muscular. My guess is that sports that allows you to maintain/increase muscle mass are healthier than sports that deplete it.

Cyclists are not muscular.

[GhostBuster]

Int J Sports Med. 2011 Aug;32(8):644-7. Epub 2011 May 26.
Increased average longevity among the "Tour de France" cyclists.
Source
Department of Physiology, Faculty of Medicine, University of Valencia, Spain.
Abstract
It is widely held among the general population and even among health professionals that moderate exercise is a healthy practice but long term high intensity exercise is not. The specific amount of physical activity necessary for good health remains unclear. To date, longevity studies of elite athletes have been relatively sparse and the results are somewhat conflicting. The Tour de France is among the most gruelling sport events in the world, during which highly trained professional cyclists undertake high intensity exercise for a full 3 weeks. Consequently we set out to determine the longevity of the participants in the Tour de France, compared with that of the general population. We studied the longevity of 834 cyclists from France (n=465), Italy (n=196) and Belgium (n=173) who rode the Tour de France between the years 1930 and 1964. Dates of birth and death of the cyclists were obtained on December 31 (st) 2007. We calculated the percentage of survivors for each age and compared them with the values for the pooled general population of France, Italy and Belgium for the appropriate age cohorts. We found a very significant increase in average longevity (17%) of the cyclists when compared with the general population. The age at which 50% of the general population died was 73.5 vs. 81.5 years in Tour de France participants. Our major finding is that repeated very intense exercise prolongs life span in well trained practitioners. Our findings underpin the importance of exercising without the fear that becoming exhausted might be bad for one's health.
PMID: 21618162

→ source (external link)

Cyclists are quite muscular. My guess is that sports that allows you to maintain/increase muscle mass are healthier than sports that deplete it.

Maybe cyclist's muscular thighs have something to do with their longevity as thin thighs are related to increased mortality:


Thigh circumference and risk of heart disease and premature death: prospective cohort study


http://www.bmj.com/c...t/339/bmj.b3292