107 replies to this topic

[Reborn]

Templanoid, here is my initial feedback regarding the NOW brand.

First I should mention that, after taking PS for 11 days now, it seems as though my body has mostly recovered from the severe fatigue, brain fog, and other symptoms regardless of whether I supplement the next day. I have tested this by delaying supplementation in the mornings yet still experiencing significant improvement over where I was 2 weeks ago. I don't know if my symptoms would fully return if I stopped taking PS for a longer period of time. However, continuing to supplement daily with PS seems to give me an additional boost (very roughly 30-40%) for ~ 4 to 5 hours with a peak somewhere between 1 and 3 hours after ingestion. The GNC brand has provided that extra boost (for me) and the cheaper NOW brand performed similarly today. Based on limited data, my initial impression is that both brands are similarly effective.

Edited by Reborn, 25 October 2012 - 01:34 AM.

[Templanoid]

Reborn,
So are you saying that the NOW brand PS gives you an additional boost of 30 to 40%? 30 to 40% of your baseline performance before you started the PS supplementation?

Also, which NOW brand did you try? Is it this? http://www.soap.com/...pla&cagpspn=pla

Edited by Templanoid, 25 October 2012 - 01:49 AM.

[Reborn]

I refer to my symptoms prior to taking PS as 0% improvement (of course). That is my baseline. At times of peak benefits from PS, I feel much better and refer to that as 100% (for ease of explanation). Very, very roughly, if I don't take PS that next morning, I feel about 60-70% improvement from before ever taking PS (when I was at 0%). Once I supplement with PS that day, it gives me an extra 30-40% boost that brings me back to feeling 100% (if that makes sense).

Regarding products, the link you provided is the NOW brand that I took today with good results.

[Templanoid]

Perfect. Thanks a lot! I'm going to head down to a GNC store and get some and try them. Can't hurt too much, I figure.

[Reborn]

If it does not work, I will gladly buy the remainder from you at cost+shipping to compensate for an incorrect recommendation. That said, I wish you the very best of luck!

[Templanoid]

Thanks a lot! That's really generous of you, Reborn. I just got the Phosphatidyl Serine 100 mg version, as I figured I'll give it a shot first. I'll try to take 3 pills so its equivalent to 300mg. Do you take it before food or after food?

Edited by Templanoid, 25 October 2012 - 03:24 AM.

[Tubemode]

Anytime is fine.

[Templanoid]

Ok, so I just took some (3 x 100mg pills) after having half a chicken subway. Lets see what happens. I just read that this keeps you up, I wish I read that before, oh well. I'll report back in an hour or so.

Edited by Templanoid, 25 October 2012 - 04:12 AM.

[Templanoid]

Ok, so I guess it's been an hour. Interesting. So far I don't have anything seemingly drastic to report. But I do feel a little less lethargic. Not active, but less lethargic, perhaps a bit more "awake"? I have to mention that about 30 minutes after my dose, I was starting to feel a bit of a "flush" on my skin, kind of like a bit hot, but it might have been my anxiousness of wondering what to expect. And I also started to feel a bit sleepy and tired, but that could have been because of the long day I've had and the food I just eat along with the dose. Now I seem to be feeling slightly more alert mentally and, like I said earlier "less lethargic". Vision appears a bit sharper, higher contrast, but this could be the Piracetam that I took about 4 hours ago, not sure (I've never felt much from Piracetam so far). So I'm not sure how to gauge this. Could be placebo, could be the effects, but nothing definitely obvious.

Edited by Templanoid, 25 October 2012 - 05:24 AM.

[Reborn]

My recommendation is to take 300 mg in the morning with food and then go about completing the tasks for the day. You can take another 100 mgs about 5 hours later as well. Personally, I didn't supplement with anything else except for a B-complex. I'd love to know how you are doing after 24 hours.

[Templanoid]

Alright. I'll do that tomorrow: I'll skip all my supplements and take only a B-Complex and 3 x 100mg pills of PS with breakfast, and perhaps one more 5 hours later and see how it goes. I'll report in tomorrow.

[Templanoid]

So I took 400mg PS this morning right before breakfast, and so far felt no effects. :( It's been 5 hours so I just took a 100mg more. I did have a double espression about 1.5 hours ago because i have class and i needed the boost. I just took a 100mg of PS just now (it's been 5 hours since first dose), so I'll see what happens. Nothnig drastic to report so far sadly :(

[Templanoid]

Well, I can definitely confirm, after one full day of trying PS, that it doesn't work for me. :( I hate to be saying this, I really really wish it did something, but I just felt no difference or improvement. Maybe a very subtle anxiolytic effect, but nothing else. I might keep taking PS until the bottle is over, but I guess my journey to find another nootropic continues.

[Reborn]

Templanoid,

Foremost, I am very sorry that PS did not work for you and that my suggestion did not help. As compensation, I will gladly buy the remaining PS from you at cost & will send you a PM immediately after this post so we can coordinate an exchange if you so choose.

If you had the same condition that I do, I think you would have clearly seen improvements within 24 hours of supplementation (which happened for my mother and I). Because your symptoms were so similar to mine, I thought it was worth a try and I don't regret encouraging you to make the attempt. However, I did get concerned that this might not work once I read that your cortisol levels were normal.

Also, although I am certainly not an expert, I strongly suspect that there is a genetic component to my condition. My mother's side of the family is very mixed ethnically with some of my ancestors coming from regions of the world that are still relatively untouched by modern medicine and science. On that side of the family, at least 5 relatives that appeared well balanced mentally and largely successful through early adulthood only later showed most of the symptoms that I have described. Over time, their lives came to a grinding halt (which was slowly happening to me over the course of at least 15 years and I watched happen to my mother). Because PS has worked for two members of the family so far, I will write a letter to others with the similar symptoms and see if PS will work for them too.

Also, I am beginning to understand that PS is probably not the solution for most people. However, I can testify that it does work for some people.

Again, Templaniod, I am very sorry PS did not work out for you. Please know that I had the best of intentions.

Very best of luck in your continued search for a solution.

Edited by Reborn, 26 October 2012 - 11:10 AM.

[Libertarian Longevity]

I think Dexedrine works a lot better than Ritalin. Before going on Dexedrine I had tried a lot of different antidepressants as I was lacking motivation and depressed in general. Once on the Dexedrine my depression was gone and Dexedrine helped motivate me to do many things I hadn't bothered with before, such as making sure I get an A in all my college classes (rather than skip doing my work or showing up for class, resulting in getting an F in a lot of classes before the dexedrine, with a C being considered good enough for me the first few years of college, as even though I was taking out student loans to go to a University rather than care about my classes I cared more about having my dorm room stocked with Vodka so I could just get drunk daily instead of care about my grades).

So for me Dexedrine is sort of a wonder drug. In high school, middle school and elementary I could always get an A if I tried, but usually got my grades pulled down to the C range from not doing my homework with only my test grades managing to average me out on a C in classes where I get an A on all the tests. It was motivation to try which kept me getting really high grades, in high school it wasn't until I transferred out of public school into a private school where they didn't give homework I started getting all As. Although when I entered college I still lacked that drive to do homework, research papers, etc, to make sure I get the best grades possible. Instead I considered it good if I could manage a C without doing any of the homework or assignments beyond the exams. I remember one college class I got an A on all the exams, but I failed the class since I didn't want to bother writing the research report required as a huge part of the grade. Finally one semester I just stopped going to all my classes and decided to take a break from college. Eventually I started up college again, but got myself on dexedrine. Now for the last few semesters I have only been getting As in the classes I take and tend to do assignments as early as I can, then submit essays early enough for my teachers to tell me if there anything they see which I can fix to improve my grade, then I fix all the mistakes and turn it in for the highest A possible. In Financial Accounting this semester I took it as an 8 week condensed course and got an A on every assignment and exam. My final grade in the class was over 99%, much higher than the course average.

So for me dexedrine has cured my depression I once had, which almost seems like I never had it now since I'm not depressed and don't require any SSRI antidepressants (none of those did anything for me). I also used to have anxiety, but I have a prescription for klonopin which takes care of any anxiety if I have it. Although after starting the dexedrine I find i don't even need the klonopin, but keep it around just in case I have a stressful day or end up in a situation which might cause anxiety. If you were to get a script of something like klonopin, which is a long lasting anti-anxiety med, that could go a long ways in getting rid of any anxiety you might get from stimulants sometimes.

Edited by Libertarian Longevity, 26 October 2012 - 03:04 PM.

[noos]

Well, I can definitely confirm, after one full day of trying PS, that it doesn't work for me. :( I hate to be saying this, I really really wish it did something, but I just felt no difference or improvement. Maybe a very subtle anxiolytic effect, but nothing else. I might keep taking PS until the bottle is over, but I guess my journey to find another nootropic continues.

You can´t expect results from a supplement in one day, not even from drugs.

[Libertarian Longevity]

Well, I can definitely confirm, after one full day of trying PS, that it doesn't work for me. :( I hate to be saying this, I really really wish it did something, but I just felt no difference or improvement. Maybe a very subtle anxiolytic effect, but nothing else. I might keep taking PS until the bottle is over, but I guess my journey to find another nootropic continues.

You can´t expect results from a supplement in one day, not even from drugs.

Something like Ritalin, Dexedrine, etc, you do feel the effects come on right away and if previously you've been lacking the drive to be productive, suddenly you have it. So since from his viewpoint he's looking for a replacement for ritalin, which does have immediate effects, I'm not surprised he's looking for something with similar efficiency. Supplements can be useful in making sure your brain has everything it needs to operate at maximum normal efficiency, but its still roughly the same as what he would be at if he was eating a well balanced diet. From drugs you can expect results in one day, the drugs which say you need to take it for weeks or months before you really know if its working tend to be the useless drugs which are often times mostly placebo or make the person worse off than they were before with no benefits.

Although you're right that if he is going to take over the counter supplements he'll need to lower his expectations drastically, since they won't be comparable to the prescription only drugs which have a significant effect, with doses being adjustable to make them very effective. The main drawback to things like ritalin and dexedrine is you need to be careful not to build up a huge tolerance, although as long as you don't double up on your doses you can maintain the same dose with it still working.

Edited by Libertarian Longevity, 26 October 2012 - 03:25 PM.

[Tubemode]

Well, I can definitely confirm, after one full day of trying PS, that it doesn't work for me. :( I hate to be saying this, I really really wish it did something, but I just felt no difference or improvement. Maybe a very subtle anxiolytic effect, but nothing else. I might keep taking PS until the bottle is over, but I guess my journey to find another nootropic continues.

You can´t expect results from a supplement in one day, not even from drugs.

This is because he's looking for something like Ritalin without the negatives.

Like we keep saying, go to a doctor and get a script for Deprenyl.

[Templanoid]

Sorry, I've disappeared for a a few days... totally lacking energy and facing major motivation issues and slight depression. :/

Don't get me wrong. I'm not really looking for 'Ritalin without the side effects'. Ritalin felt good, and got me to work, but it was a little too strong, and I'm not sure maybe I need something more than just Ritalin.

Libertarian Longevity,
Does Dexedrine require a script? Problem for me is, at this point, I am not even sure what I need. I feel like my depression is a result of me not feeling adequate in social situations because my brain does not work fast enough and my responses to people in conversations are very slow and that typically means people don't quite enjoy conversations with you. I really need something to make me sharper, more alert, have more mental energy, and maybe even reduce anxiety. You could say that perhaps the depression is causing all those mental symptoms, but I really don't know about that... at this point I don't even have the energy to drill further. :(

Tubemode,
As a student its really tough to go to a doctor here in the US and get the medicine without proper insurance, it's definitely going to be expensive. Anyway, what kind of doctor do you suggest I go to? A Psychiatrist? I will see if I can make an appointment sometime and see how much it might cost. I really need something, I need to be stimulated, alert, sharp, etc.

Reborn,
No worries about PS. You were making a recommendation and the only way I could have found out was to try it. So don't worry about it, no harm done. Thanks for taking the time to respond, though, I appreciate it.

[Tubemode]

Dexedrine, Focalin, Methylphenidate, Adderall, Strattera - all of these drugs require a script.

I think you're going about this the wrong way. You say you like Ritalin? Find something to attenuate the negatives then, instead of wasting money and time looking for things to replace it.

Might I recommend taking your Ritalin with L-Theanine. Zrbarnes uses it to take off the edge from his Adderall use, send him a PM.

If this doesn't work out, go see a psychiatrist. Look into Dexmethylphenidate. I know your pain. Although I have the money to see a doctor and buy the medicines, taking care of everything on my allowance is tough.

Here's a tip: tell them you're already on Ritalin or have been on Ritalin and you want to try something else. Makes the process easier every time.

[Templanoid]

Dexedrine, Focalin, Methylphenidate, Adderall, Strattera - all of these drugs require a script.

I think you're going about this the wrong way. You say you like Ritalin? Find something to attenuate the negatives then, instead of wasting money and time looking for things to replace it.

Might I recommend taking your Ritalin with L-Theanine. Zrbarnes uses it to take off the edge from his Adderall use, send him a PM.

If this doesn't work out, go see a psychiatrist. Look into Dexmethylphenidate. I know your pain. Although I have the money to see a doctor and buy the medicines, taking care of everything on my allowance is tough.

Here's a tip: tell them you're already on Ritalin or have been on Ritalin and you want to try something else. Makes the process easier every time.

No I didn't say I like Ritalin. I don't necessarily like it, it did feel OK when it worked, but I don't think Ritalin was what I am looking for to treat my condition.

Incidentally, the user Brainfogged just created a thread in this subforum called Sluggish cognitive tempo disorder (SCT), which sounds very much exactly like the condition that I have. http://www.longecity...o-disorder-sct/

[Templanoid]

Anyone else have any insight or recommendations for what I could try? I bought some Vitamin D and L-Lysine, I'll see how they work tomorrow along with the rest of my stack, maybe even with Modafinil.

[Tubemode]

Nothing OTC can or will rival the efficacy of Ritalin as a focus and attention aid. I suggest you move up. Trust me on this, a lot of us have been around here longer than most, and any competent and educated member will tell you that you can't compete with pharmaceutical drugs from the standpoint of potency.

Go to a psychiatrist and ask for dexedrine or adderall. This approach is generally much better than wasting your money on OTC supplements that won't do anything. Trust me, I've been there.

[Templanoid]

Nothing OTC can or will rival the efficacy of Ritalin as a focus and attention aid. I suggest you move up. Trust me on this, a lot of us have been around here longer than most, and any competent and educated member will tell you that you can't compete with pharmaceutical drugs from the standpoint of potency.

Go to a psychiatrist and ask for dexedrine or adderall. This approach is generally much better than wasting your money on OTC supplements that won't do anything. Trust me, I've been there.

But I am not sure if Adderall (which I have tried just once, a friend who has a prescription gave me some, and it had similar effects on me as Ritalin did) or Dexedrine are going to deal with the root cause of my problem, which is cognitive delay and poor functioning. I know you may say that I don't sound like I have such problems in these posts, but these posts are all of linear in nature and do not demonstrate the departments in which I lack in.

[Tubemode]

So far, no one really knows if SCT is even a legitimate mental condition, one distinct from ADHD, depression or dare I say - Aspergers syndrome.

Looked it up for you, it seems that sympathomimetics such as Ritalin and Adderall are some of the few medicines used to treat this supposed condition.

Here's a thought: what if you have legitimate clinical depression, and the emotional pain brought upon by this disorder (not to mention the physiological causes such as an increase in MAO) has been causing your cognitive issues?

I mean, what if the general lack of social connections in your life isn't responsible for your depression? What if it is the other way around? That your depression is causing your day to day difficulties?

Makes sense. Ritalin is also an anti-depressant, and you've spoken positively about the drug, despite the side-effects. Ritalin doesn't alter the conformational structure of your neural system in the short term in the same way that allosteric modulators such as Piracetam do, all it really does is improve your mood and give you energy, in layman's terms.

I think you should focus on substances that will improve your mood. Everything will fall into place thereafter.

As per my original recommendation, look into Deprenyl.

By the way, there is no 'NZT' pill.

[Templanoid]

You know, you do have a point. I was trying to come up with an argument against you, but I see how it's hard for me to prove otherwise. Yet, it is also pretty hard to say that it is the depression causing my symptoms. Let me explain.

Here's the thing. I have to mention, I'm not constantly depressed. Especially when an exciting event is about to come up, or I read about something exciting, I can almost feel the dopamine squirt, so to say, and I become excited, energized and positive. However, my cognitive abilities are still almost always at a low performance mode. However, I do get largely depressed after I return from social situations, because this is when my symptoms/problems become most apparent: Not being able to think as fast, not being able to discern and analyze the things that people say - I end up being isolated from a group of people talking (even if the group is as small as a 3 person group). I get mental blocks on what to respond or how to respond - even though I shouldn't. I often can't express myself verbally very well, I stumble in speech, my sentences are uttered out in chunks or parts, because I can't process thoughts/words fast enough - as a result people just tend to, pause for a bit, then "overlook" what I just said and simply continue on as if I did not say something of relevance, or because my speech is simply unusual? I don't know. So, when I'm in a situation where this becomes the most apparent (mostly social ones), I realize how I didn't fit in, how I can't develop deep relationships, and this thus cause me to be depressed (and yes, this depression might be refeeding itself into the cycle, making it a downward spiral). To add, at this moment, I feel OK. I feel like I'm able to type this post out articulately (but that's coming from me.. how ironic, heh), I don't feel mentally tired.. i don't feel mental lethargy, brain/thoughts seem less sluggish and my social concerns aren't in the forefront as much. I just woke up not too long ago, haven't had anything to eat, haven't taken any supps yet. Was out partying for Halloween last night - and I went through the same issues I described above. I was drinking quite a bit last night, though I did take some of the supps from my stack before going out, including Piracetam, ALCAR and Phosphatidylserine)

So, to me, that largely seems to be a cognitive issue which is the cause of my depression. If that is true, taking Deprenyl would be curing the symptom and not the root cause, no? What do you think?

Recently, I've been thinking about anxiety also being a big factor in my problems - not the only factor - because even behind the confines and comfort of my computer and the Internet, I'm not always cognitively sharp, but social anxiety might be causing further mental blocks from my already lower mental performance. What do you think about this?

Ugh, I really don't want or mean to turn this into a psychological help support thread, I feel there's something physiologically wrong.

Edited by Templanoid, 01 November 2012 - 09:59 PM.

[RYAN474]

Templanoid,
I can relate 100% to your point that even if your mood is good and you get a 'dopamine squirt', the underyling cognitive abilities still remain in low performance mode. So your mood can be good, but you still feel slow and are lacking clarity.
I agree with everything tubermode said.
Here's what I would say ..
a) Focus on things that will improve your mood and everything else will be easier. Doesn't mean its going to solve everything, but it will help speed up the process. This has been and continues to be true in my case.
b) Trust your instinct when you say that anxiety may also be a big factor in your problems. Anxiety was a big factor that took me forever to realize or accept. And anxiety relieving supplements meds didn't necessarily help a lot of the other pieces. But it was definitely one huge helpful piece that makes an enormous difference when combined with all the rest. Especially for social situations, this was the extra piece I needed.
c) Of course, there is no "one" answer-- no "NZT" as templanoid said. Its going to require at least a few interventions, and is unlikely that one particular drug, supplement, or 'remedy' in general will be the answer. It will probably require a number of drugs, a number of supplements, and a number of other "remedies". In my case, its nothing less than 20 extremely critical things that I learned over time. And more like 50 to 100 things.

-- Forgive my cliche analogy but for what its worth-- its like a car. Lets pretend some things went wrong in the manufacturing process of the car (like genetics). They put the wrong engine in it, they didn't properly bolt-in the transmission, they put three big tires and one small tire. Its missing a belt, and they put the wrong type of oil in it. Its going to start just fine but going to be really difficult to make run properly. Troubleshoot one thing at a time and it will all be running top notch sooner than you know.

[Tubemode]

Seriously. Take it from me: not being charismatic and witty is not a sign of a cognitive deficiency. Just means you're hanging out with the wrong sort of people.

Frankly, as someone who was part of the debate team for eight years all the way from high school and college? Being sharp isn't something you're born with. You work on it. You practice.

Not everyone can be Mr. Popular. Don't put that pressure on yourself. I take it you've seen Limitless? No pill is going to make you a cultural pundit overnight. Quit aspiring to be like that.

The bulk of your complaints regarding your cognitive performance seem to stem from your interactions with other people. Apart from that, you seem like a very coherent individual.

The general opinion in this thread is that you don't really suffer from anything apart from anxiety and yes, low self-esteem issues. You mentioned Ritalin fixing your social issues? This is because it lowers inhibitions.

I love science. And I hate it when people spout dogmatic advice, but for once, I am going to go the other way and do just that: go out there and start mingling with other people.

Again, please. You don't have a 'structural' issue. Save for some anxiety probably.

Edited by Tubemode, 02 November 2012 - 08:44 AM.

[Templanoid]

Thanks for the replies. Again, Ritalin gave me a bit of a "high". I never said it fixed my social issues - it never has, as far as I can remember - in fact, it comes in the way when the side effects kick in. I might have misstated it, but I don't remember saying Ritalin fixed my issues (even when it "worked" with no side effects). So please don't get the impression that it did anything much than make me feel buzzed and excited and smiley.

I mingle with people more than you'd imagine. I'm always out with people, at work, after work, with friends on weekends. Apart from that, I go clubbing *at least* 2, if not 3, times a week, every week, for the past 2.5 years. A lot of it in hopes to get better at this. Never has anything been different in my recall-able past than it is today. My ability to make relationships closer than the acquaintance level is close to zero.

I saw Limitless recently after people kept talking about it and thought it was a only a slightly exciting movie, but my quest to look for a fix for my mental state predates it, right here on Longecity (back when it was Imminst). Being witty/charismatic/Mr. popular would sure be great, but all I'm asking for now is much MUCH more mundane than that, believe me. I find it hard that my cognitive performance/issues could be benchmarked clearly via the replies I make in this thread. I can read and respond, I am not that low IQ. I've been fighting with this for far too long to notice that it isn't some form of structural issue - possible that it has been bought on by depression long ago. I do have immense insecurity issues at this point and this could be something I could "practice" or "work on" (eventhough I've seemed to have tried, as much as my lethargic self would allow me to), my lethargy (mental and physical), lack of mental clarity and slowness are based on something more tangible. This lethargy has been with me all my life - it;s something we've been talking about multiple times over the past decade and a half in my family. I have cognitive issues - perhaps not severe, but I simply can not say that I don't. I do mingle with people, a lot, but as mentioned I end up feeling quite depressed afterwards and it's as if I have hit a wall - I don't know how to improve my aforementioned issues by doing so anymore. It's a feedback loop and I feel like at this point I can't make things better without some sort of an intervention from the outside, that is supps/meds.

Going on with that, are you suggesting Deprenyl and some anti-anxiety meds/sups as the start to potentially improve my overall condition?

And ryan474,
Since you seem to have some experience that might have a few things common to mine - What kind of anti-anxiety/depressant meds/sups did you use?

Edited by Templanoid, 02 November 2012 - 10:31 AM.

[Tubemode]

Lol. So you're looking for a girlfriend.

Jokes aside.

Deprenyl in itself is an anti-depressant and anti-anxiety drug. It is a monoamine oxidase inhibitor. Look up anecdotes and experiences regarding the drug if you have the time.

But saving you the time: you will find that most people have reported a general sense of well-being and a proverbial 'loss of worries' whilst on it. It is also a popular study drug - often combined with caffeine and any other norepinepherine/dopamine releasing agent.

There are drawbacks though: you can't take your Ritalin while on it (yes, you can die if you do this), and the drug's mechanism of action lasts for a couple of weeks, so you have to be careful about what you take, eat and drink while on the drug. Might want to check your BP every two days as well.

Regardless, I don't think you want to go the SSRI route. It might exacerbate your anhedonia and lethargy.

With regards to the therapeutic aspect of your condition? Do you like clubbing? If you don't like the atmosphere then you are going to have a hard time talking to people. I mean honestly, that isn't the only place to meet women.

A lot of people generally don't like clubbing either. I've been to many a club in the past - you can't get a word in with all the noise.

Aren't there any women where you work?

Edited by Tubemode, 02 November 2012 - 11:06 AM.