• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans

Photo
- - - - -

which diet / confusion


  • Please log in to reply
70 replies to this topic

#1 DeepB

  • Guest
  • 18 posts
  • 1
  • Location:Europe

Posted 05 November 2012 - 08:27 PM


Hi everybody,

I am living right now off a very unhealthy diet (mostly fast-food), am 25 and european.
But the information available is overwhelming. High-fat low carb is good. Low carb high fat is good. Grains are good. Grains are bad. Meat is good. Meat is bad.
So i have two questions.

1) Are there any generally accepted statements? like sugar is bad, antioxidants are good, this or that is good/bad?
Are myotoxins bad/something to look out for?

2) I am searching for a diet which has the following attributes (in that order):
a) benificial for mental faculties
b) easy to follow/implement
c) good for general health / longelivety

best regards
Daniel

#2 hivemind

  • Guest
  • 417 posts
  • 60
  • Location:Earth

Posted 05 November 2012 - 09:16 PM

Plant based diet low in saturated fat. Limited amounts of meat, especially red meat. Whole grains, legumes, tubers, vegetables and fruits. Low fat or mediterranean style diet with unsaturated fats. Limited amounts of dairy and other animal foods.

High fat low carb acceptable only if done with nuts, seeds and healthy oils. :) Atkins style diet is a disaster.

Edited by hivemind, 05 November 2012 - 09:19 PM.

  • like x 2
  • dislike x 2

sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for NUTRITION to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#3 misterE

  • Guest
  • 1,035 posts
  • -76
  • Location:Texas
  • NO

Posted 09 November 2012 - 03:44 AM

I have to agree with hivemind. Plant-based diets are the ultimate diet for the longevity of yourself and the planet. Whole-grains, beans, breads and potatoes should provide the bulk of your calorie needs. Vegetables for the fiber and phytonutrients and fruit if you have a sweet-tooth or crave a desert or treat. Look into the works of T Colin Campbell, Caldwell Esselstyn, Dean Ornish, John McDougall, Neal Barnard, Hans Diehl, Joel Fuhrman, Mark McCarty and others alike.

Basically you want to lop off the top three boxes of the food-pyramid.

Posted Image
  • dislike x 1
  • like x 1
  • Disagree x 1

#4 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 19,076 posts
  • 2,000
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 10 November 2012 - 05:01 PM

You will notice an immediate boost in health and performance just by dropping the fast food and empty carbs (donuts, bread, pasta, anything with processed grains). Dropping empty carbs and sugary treats is very hard for most people, but you will notice immediate health benefits. Do that first - drop the bad stuff - and see how you feel.

What misterE and hivemind suggested is pretty good. If you want to go one step better, don't eat many grains. Of course, it depends on your finances as well. Eating more good fruits (like berries) and superfood vegetables is more expensive than eating much less nutritious grains.

#5 misterE

  • Guest
  • 1,035 posts
  • -76
  • Location:Texas
  • NO

Posted 10 November 2012 - 06:43 PM

Without making grains (or starches) the staple of your diet, your chances for long-term compliance or success on a healthy diet will be compromised. Low-fat/high-fiber grain based diets (like the Pritikin, Ornish and Esselstyn diets) have been shown to reverse diabetes, metabolic-syndrome, prostate-cancer and atherosclerosis [1-5].

[1] Diabetes Care. 1983 May-Jun;6(3):268-73. Long-term use of a high-complex-carbohydrate, high-fiber, low-fat diet and exercise in the treatment of NIDDM patients. Barnard RJ, Massey MR, Cherny S.

[2] Metabolism. 2006 Jul;55(7):871-8. Effect of a short-term diet and exercise intervention on metabolic syndrome in overweight children. Chen AK, Roberts CK, Barnard RJ.

[3] J Urol. 2005 Sep;174(3):1065-9; discussion 1069-70. Intensive lifestyle changes may affect the progression of prostate cancer. Ornish D, Weidner G, Fair WR.

[4] Am J Clin Nutr. 2007 Sep;86(3):s889-93. Prostate cancer prevention by nutritional means to alleviate metabolic syndrome. Barnard RJ.

[5] J Fam Pract. 1995 Dec;41(6):560-8. A strategy to arrest and reverse coronary artery disease: a 5-year longitudinal study of a single physician's practice. Esselstyn CB Jr, Ellis SG, Medendorp SV.

Edited by misterE, 10 November 2012 - 06:52 PM.


#6 zorba990

  • Guest
  • 1,602 posts
  • 315

Posted 10 November 2012 - 07:36 PM

Opinions vary. I would certainly avoid all GMO wheat and GMO Corn. I suspect them (no proof yet) greatly in the new inflammatory breast cancers that are starting to emerge (really scary stuff).

Mind's recommendations are very sensible and a great start. Drop the junk and eat real unpackaged food as much as possible.

Here's some low carb angle:
http://www.bulletpro...-to-steve-jobs/

#7 hivemind

  • Guest
  • 417 posts
  • 60
  • Location:Earth

Posted 10 November 2012 - 09:37 PM

Oats are very healthy and whole grain wheat tastes very good. I could not live without grains. :)

In the blue zones people eat legumes and potatoes too. There are no fruitarian blue zones. The fruitarian thing is not very practical and also too sweet for my taste(a lot of fructose). :)

Edited by hivemind, 10 November 2012 - 09:49 PM.

  • like x 1

#8 DeepB

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 18 posts
  • 1
  • Location:Europe

Posted 11 November 2012 - 03:06 PM

Well, that was what I thought, no real consensus over it.

What misterE and hivemind suggested is pretty good. If you want to go one step better, don't eat many grains.


Why would I not want to eat grains?

Also are there facts that are generally egreed upon? (like sugar is bad?)

#9 misterE

  • Guest
  • 1,035 posts
  • -76
  • Location:Texas
  • NO

Posted 11 November 2012 - 04:49 PM

In the blue zones people eat legumes and potatoes too.



The longest living populations on earth today live on primarily plant-based diets low in processed-food. These include people from Okinawa, Japan; Sardinia, Italy; Nicoya, Costa Rica; Ikaria, Greece; and even the Seventh Day Adventists right here in Loma Linda, California!

Edited by misterE, 11 November 2012 - 04:50 PM.


#10 misterE

  • Guest
  • 1,035 posts
  • -76
  • Location:Texas
  • NO

Posted 11 November 2012 - 04:56 PM

Also are there facts that are generally egreed upon?



I'm sure everyone here agrees that processed and refined-foods are bad. Things like chips, cookies, cakes, pies, ice-cream, candy, soda, pastries, donuts, etc.

Edited by misterE, 11 November 2012 - 04:57 PM.


#11 sthira

  • Guest
  • 2,008 posts
  • 406

Posted 11 November 2012 - 05:08 PM

Well, that was what I thought, no real consensus over it.


Eat fewer calories. Eat mostly plants. Keep protein to RDA levels. Avoid sugary drinks -- avoid juice, avoid Gatorade-like products, avoid weird rock star energy shit. Avoid emptiness.

Drink green tea, drink coffee, drink water, drink some red wine, drink beer, just don't go bezerk. Ok, sometimes go bezerk. But avoid added salt. Avoid most processed foods -- avoid things posing as foods -- avoid food-like substances in boxes, containers, cans. If you cannot avoid that mess, then limit that mess. Avoid packages that trumpet health claims -- avoid sugary junk cereals, avoid salty pre-packaged objects, avoid weird soy concoctions -- tofurkey? --yuck, don't eat it. Eat no soup from a can.

Limit bread, limit pasta, limit most grains, limit empty carbs that'll only jack up your blood sugar and make you sick and old. Eat whole foods -- eat foods you recognize. Eat organic fruits and eat organic vegetables. Eat leafy greens, eat cruciferous vegetables -- eat them raw and eat them steamed, just eat them, your taste for them will become very sensitive if you'll just give them a chance. Eat olive oil. Eat nuts. Eat legumes. Eat fermented foods. Eat lower-iodine seaweed, like nori or laver. Eat some dark chocolate. Not too much. Eat less food.

If you must eat meat, treat meat as a spice, treat meat as a side dish, treat meat as special because meat is special -- animals (probably) suffered then (definitely) died for you. That means something. Have respect. If everyone could go to a mainstream slaughterhouse and see and smell and hear what happens inside, nearly everyone would think more before eating meat. Think more before eating meat.

Try to get most vitamins and nutrients from food, not from supplements. Diet trumps supplements. Be very careful about what pills you swallow. Many of these pills are just for show, many are fakes, many are passing fads, many are just making people rich off your hard-earned paycheck. Analyze your diet using a tool like cronometer, figure where you're falling short, then supplement for that specific food component. Go for RDA levels. Be conscious.

Tune out the screaming, shouting, zealous people who think they've got all this figured out. Biology is wildly complex. Nutrition science is in its infancy. But certain nutritional guide posts seem to stay solid through the rancor. What are these guide posts? Find them, make these guide posts your longterm habit. Your future you may thank your present you.
  • dislike x 1
  • like x 1

#12 Hebbeh

  • Guest
  • 1,661 posts
  • 570

Posted 11 November 2012 - 05:23 PM

Eat.....................................Your future you may thank your present you.


+1 Best advice ever. Combine sthira's advice with "all things in moderation" and you can't lose.

#13 DeepB

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 18 posts
  • 1
  • Location:Europe

Posted 11 November 2012 - 07:56 PM

If you must eat meat, treat meat as a spice, treat meat as a side dish, treat meat as special because meat is special -- animals (probably) suffered then (definitely) died for you. That means something. Have respect. If everyone could go to a mainstream slaughterhouse and see and smell and hear what happens inside, nearly everyone would think more before eating meat. Think more before eating meat.


Is that now health related or belief related?

#14 hippocampus

  • Guest
  • 736 posts
  • 112
  • Location:medial temporal lobe, brain

Posted 11 November 2012 - 11:00 PM

Read Michael Pollan's book "In Defense of Food". It's not actually about which diet is the best, but about our complicating with nutrition. Basically, he concludes his advice in: "Eat food. Mostly plants. Not too much." (and by eat food he is thinking about "real" - non-processed food, which he discusses in book).

#15 hivemind

  • Guest
  • 417 posts
  • 60
  • Location:Earth

Posted 12 November 2012 - 12:32 AM

Well, that was what I thought, no real consensus over it.


Eat fewer calories. Eat mostly plants. Keep protein to RDA levels. Avoid sugary drinks -- avoid juice, avoid Gatorade-like products, avoid weird rock star energy shit. Avoid emptiness.

Drink green tea, drink coffee, drink water, drink some red wine, drink beer, just don't go bezerk. Ok, sometimes go bezerk. But avoid added salt. Avoid most processed foods -- avoid things posing as foods -- avoid food-like substances in boxes, containers, cans. If you cannot avoid that mess, then limit that mess. Avoid packages that trumpet health claims -- avoid sugary junk cereals, avoid salty pre-packaged objects, avoid weird soy concoctions -- tofurkey? --yuck, don't eat it. Eat no soup from a can.

Limit bread, limit pasta, limit most grains, limit empty carbs that'll only jack up your blood sugar and make you sick and old. Eat whole foods -- eat foods you recognize. Eat organic fruits and eat organic vegetables. Eat leafy greens, eat cruciferous vegetables -- eat them raw and eat them steamed, just eat them, your taste for them will become very sensitive if you'll just give them a chance. Eat olive oil. Eat nuts. Eat legumes. Eat fermented foods. Eat lower-iodine seaweed, like nori or laver. Eat some dark chocolate. Not too much. Eat less food.

If you must eat meat, treat meat as a spice, treat meat as a side dish, treat meat as special because meat is special -- animals (probably) suffered then (definitely) died for you. That means something. Have respect. If everyone could go to a mainstream slaughterhouse and see and smell and hear what happens inside, nearly everyone would think more before eating meat. Think more before eating meat.

Try to get most vitamins and nutrients from food, not from supplements. Diet trumps supplements. Be very careful about what pills you swallow. Many of these pills are just for show, many are fakes, many are passing fads, many are just making people rich off your hard-earned paycheck. Analyze your diet using a tool like cronometer, figure where you're falling short, then supplement for that specific food component. Go for RDA levels. Be conscious.

Tune out the screaming, shouting, zealous people who think they've got all this figured out. Biology is wildly complex. Nutrition science is in its infancy. But certain nutritional guide posts seem to stay solid through the rancor. What are these guide posts? Find them, make these guide posts your longterm habit. Your future you may thank your present you.


Yes, this is good advice.

I would not avoid certain fruit juices though consumed in reasonable amounts. For example cold pressed 100% pomegranate juice is very healthy.

And I can fit considerable amounts of whole grains to my limited calories diet. You have to get the calories from somewhere. Leafy greens have no calories. :)

And avoid saturated fat. :)

Edited by hivemind, 12 November 2012 - 12:37 AM.


#16 misterE

  • Guest
  • 1,035 posts
  • -76
  • Location:Texas
  • NO

Posted 12 November 2012 - 06:13 AM

And I can fit considerable amounts of whole grains to my limited calories diet. You have to get the calories from somewhere. Leafy greens have no calories. :)



Great point! Without grains and other starches... where do the calories come from? Since vegetables don't provide enough calories, as hivemind mentioned, limiting grains and starches means you are increasing the percentage of fat, simple-sugar and protein in your diet. Eating less grains (starch) virtually means you get your calories from either fat, sugar or protein. Which when you think about it, that's exactly what most Americans do on a daily basis! They put in the wrong type of fuel.

It is well established that glucose is the body’s main primary fuel source, feeding the body fat, fructose and protein is like putting diesel fuel in an unleaded-car! You can expect the car to function properly without the right type of fuel, right? What starch is, are long complex chains of glucose: the body's primary fuel.

Edited by misterE, 12 November 2012 - 06:23 AM.


#17 misterE

  • Guest
  • 1,035 posts
  • -76
  • Location:Texas
  • NO

Posted 12 November 2012 - 06:21 AM

Not only are plant-based diets (based on whole-grains) the healthiest and the most sustainable, but perhaps also the cheapest.

2500 calories of:
Salmon===============$30.60
Rib-eye steak==========$24.29
Big Mac===============$14.77
Chicken breast=========$13.72
Steak burrito*==========$ 12.65
Whopper==============$ 11.12
Milk==================$10.37
Cheddar cheese========$ 8.54
Ground Beef===========$ 6.55
Sweet potatoes=========$ 3.00
White potatoes=========$ 1.75
Brown rice=============$ 1.52
Grits==================$ 1.28
Oats==================$ 1.09
Pinto beans============$ 1.05
Corn tortillas===========$ 1.00
White rice=============$ 0.44

*Taco Bell


http://www.drmcdouga...ar/foodcost.htm


#18 hivemind

  • Guest
  • 417 posts
  • 60
  • Location:Earth

Posted 12 November 2012 - 07:26 AM

Vegetable oils are very cheap calories too. I would bet that most calories in the Big Mac come from vegetable oils and that it has a considerable profit margin in the price. :)

Edited by hivemind, 12 November 2012 - 07:27 AM.


#19 DeepB

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 18 posts
  • 1
  • Location:Europe

Posted 12 November 2012 - 05:13 PM

Ok, so the eat unprocessed food suggestion seems kind of common.
Is there a reason no one yet has suggested a paleo-style diet?
there was only

High fat low carb acceptable only if done with nuts, seeds and healthy oils. :) Atkins style diet is a disaster.

why is that so?
If I look around in other (older) threads here, many people here suggested a paleo-style diet, are there some new scientific findings that didn't exist a few years back that say that it is bad?

#20 TheFountain

  • Guest
  • 5,362 posts
  • 257

Posted 12 November 2012 - 07:16 PM

MisterE a lot of what you say sounds good to me, but what about the anti-nutrient component of many grains? They would seem to be counter to longevity. But I agree with the necessity of healthy starches in ones diet, particularly from potatoes. Especially the sweet variety. M joints hurt when I don't get healthy carbs in the diet (with high emphasis on the HEALTHY part).

#21 zorba990

  • Guest
  • 1,602 posts
  • 315

Posted 12 November 2012 - 08:57 PM

I think you will find a much easier time eating appropriate amount of calories on a more paleo diet.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2724493/

No advice was given to restrict food intake. Therefore, the lower reported energy intake during the Paleolithic diet despite no difference in weight of reported food intake agrees with the notion that such a diet is satiating and facilitates a reduced caloric intake


  • like x 1

#22 hivemind

  • Guest
  • 417 posts
  • 60
  • Location:Earth

Posted 12 November 2012 - 10:37 PM

If I look around in other (older) threads here, many people here suggested a paleo-style diet, are there some new scientific findings that didn't exist a few years back that say that it is bad?


I think paleo is a fad diet. Just the same old low carb repackaged. It will lead to high cholesterol levels and atherosclerosis.

http://www.youtube.c...B5&feature=plcp

Edited by hivemind, 12 November 2012 - 10:38 PM.

  • like x 1
  • dislike x 1

#23 misterE

  • Guest
  • 1,035 posts
  • -76
  • Location:Texas
  • NO

Posted 13 November 2012 - 03:27 AM

Is there a reason no one yet has suggested a paleo-style diet?


Basically, there are no studies done using the paleo-diet on reversal of atherosclerosis (the number one killer of Americans). The fact that the starch-based diet can reverse atherosclerosis, for me is quite impressive and until other research is done on humans showing reversal of atherosclerotic lesions with another diet (especially one based on meat, like the paleo-diet), choosing any other diet than the starch-based diet makes it risky, does it not? If health were your true goal, would you follow a diet that hasn't been proven to reverse the number one killer of Americans?

Epidemiological studies show that when nations switch from their grain-based veganish diets (like in Japan and India) to rich diets high in meat, fat and simple-sugar they quickly develop metabolic-syndrome [1-9].

The largest dietary change that took place in America in the 20th century was the decrease in beans, grains and potatoes and an increase in meat, dairy, total fat and total sugar [10-11].

I think it comes down to this. Many folks who promote these types of meat based diets (like the paleo or Atkins diets) grew up eating these rich delicacies and don’t want to part with their pork-chops. If you eat rich foods you are going to take on the appearance and disease of wealthy aristocrats and royalty of the past, who got to feast on meat, fat and sugar daily, like most Americans nowadays.

Posted ImagePosted Image



The last and perhaps most important thing folks need to realize is that the paleo-diet is not sustainable for seven billion people and counting. It takes a tremendous amount of water to grow all the crops to feed the livestock. A California Water Education Foundation study found that it takes nearly a whopping 2500 gallons of water to make a single pound of beef [12]!

Posted Image

To me the evidence is quite clear, the same diet that protects you from metabolic-syndrome and increases your longevity, is the same diet that can promote the longevity of our planet and prevents the suffrage of fellow creatures of the earth. It’s a plant-based diet with an emphasis on starches.







[1] Am J Cardiol. 1998 Nov 26;82(10B):18T-21T. Diet, lifestyle, and the etiology of coronary artery disease: the Cornell China study. Campbell TC, Parpia B, Chen J.

[2] Eur J Nutr. 2006 Feb;45(1):52-4. No evidence of insulin resistance in normal weight vegetarians. A case control study. Valachovicová M, Krajcovicová-Kudlácková M, Blazícek P.

[3] Diabetes Care. 1979 Mar-Apr;2(2):161-70. Diabetes mellitus and its vascular complications in Japanese migrants on the Island of Hawaii. Kawate R, Yamakido M, Nishimoto Y.

[4] Asian Pac J Cancer Prev. 2004 Jan-Mar;5(1):28-35. Association between type II diabetes and colon cancer among Japanese with reference to changes in food intake. Kuriki K, Tokudome S, Tajima K.

[5] Eur J Cancer Prev. 2004 Apr;13(2):127-32. Secular trend of colon cancer incidence and mortality in relation to fat and meat intake in Japan. Kono S.

[6] J Am Coll Nutr. 2010 Apr;29(2):81-91. Imbalanced dietary profile, anthropometry, and lipids in urban Asian Indian adolescents and young adults. Gupta N, Shah P, Goel K.

[7] Nutr J. 2011 Jan 28;10:12. A cross-sectional investigation of regional patterns of diet and cardio-metabolic risk in India. Daniel CR, Prabhakaran D, Kapur K.

[8] Metab Syndr Relat Disord. 2004 Spring;2(1):14-23. The Metabolic Syndrome in Asian Indians: Impact of Nutritional and Socio-economic Transition in India. Wasir JS, Misra A.

[9] J Diabetes. 2011 Dec;3(4):278-92. Nutrition transition in India: secular trends in dietary intake and their relationship to diet-related non-communicable diseases. Misra A, Singhal N, Sivakumar B.

[10] Am J Clin Nutr. 2010 May;91(5):1530S-1536S. Trends in food availability, 1909-2007. Barnard ND.

[11] Am J Clin Nutr January 1959 vol. 7 no. 1 91-97. The American Diet—Past and Present. Trulson MF.


[12]http://www.ejlw.sakia.org/cms/fileadmin/content/irrig/general/kreith_1991_water_inputs_in_ca_food_production-excerpt.pdf

Edited by misterE, 13 November 2012 - 03:33 AM.

  • dislike x 1
  • like x 1

#24 misterE

  • Guest
  • 1,035 posts
  • -76
  • Location:Texas
  • NO

Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:02 AM

MisterE a lot of what you say sounds good to me, but what about the anti-nutrient component of many grains? They would seem to be counter to longevity.


Phytic-acid is notorious for being blamed as a "villain-nutrient" preventing your body from absorbing minerals and such. While this may be true to a small extent, phytic-acid has some beneficial roles as well, such as antioxidant and anticancer activity, and increasing insulin sensitivity [1-3].


[1] Mol Nutr Food Res. 2009 Sep;53 Suppl 2:S330-75.Phytate in foods and significance for humans: food sources, intake, processing, bioavailability, protective role and analysis.Schlemmer U, Frølich W, Prieto RM.

[2] Free Radic Biol Med. 1990;8(1):61-9.Antioxidant functions of phytic acid.Graf E, Eaton JW.

[3]
Pol Merkur Lekarski. 2012 Jul;33(193):43-7.Phytic acid--anticancer nutriceutic.Nawrocka-Musiał D, Latocha M.

#25 zorba990

  • Guest
  • 1,602 posts
  • 315

Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:55 AM

Many diets reverse Heart Disease through blood pressure regulation:
http://30bananasaday...-heart-disease/

But I believe it is largely a ascorbate deficiency issue that causes arterial damage:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....7?dopt=Abstract

From http://www.lef.org/f...tamin_c_01.html

Our direct observation, based on carotid ultrasound testing, show that very high vitamin C supplement users have remarkably healthy carotid arteries. When adjusted for other factors such as age, elevated homocysteine, LDL cholesterol and glucose, these very high vitamin C takers as a group appear to have less carotid pathology than the general population. A review of previously published findings indicates that consuming a wide variety of very high potency dietary supplements, combined with blood screening to monitor cholesterol, homocysteine, glucose, iron and other atherogenic risk factors, confers a significant protective effect against the development of carotid artery disease.
  • like x 1

#26 DeepB

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 18 posts
  • 1
  • Location:Europe

Posted 13 November 2012 - 09:15 AM

Is there a reason no one yet has suggested a paleo-style diet?


Basically, there are no studies done using the paleo-diet on reversal of atherosclerosis (the number one killer of Americans). The fact that the starch-based diet can reverse atherosclerosis, for me is quite impressive and until other research is done on humans showing reversal of atherosclerotic lesions with another diet (especially one based on meat, like the paleo-diet), choosing any other diet than the starch-based diet makes it risky, does it not? If health were your true goal, would you follow a diet that hasn't been proven to reverse the number one killer of Americans?


well, I guess the outcome is not as clear here as you say, right?
As far as I know there are a lot of studies that say different. Like

Participants on a low-carbohydrate diet had more favorable overall outcomes at 1 year than did those on a conventional diet. Weight loss was similar between groups, but effects on atherogenic dyslipidemia and glycemic control were still more favorable with a low-carbohydrate diet after adjustment for differences in weight loss. [1]


or

In postmenopausal women with relatively low total fat intake, a greater saturated fat intake is associated with less progression of coronary atherosclerosis, whereas carbohydrate intake is associated with a greater progression. [2]


Don't get me wrong, I don't want to say that Paleo is better, I have not enough knowledge in this field to do that, I am just saying that it is probably not as simple as you say.

Epidemiological studies show that when nations switch from their grain-based veganish diets (like in Japan and India) to rich diets high in meat, fat and simple-sugar they quickly develop metabolic-syndrome [1-9].


Here again, I guess the keyword is sugar. And as far as I know a paleo diet is low on sugar, right? So not really applicable.


The largest dietary change that took place in America in the 20th century was the decrease in beans, grains and potatoes and an increase in meat, dairy, total fat and total sugar [10-11].

Again sugar.

I think it comes down to this. Many folks who promote these types of meat based diets (like the paleo or Atkins diets) grew up eating these rich delicacies and don’t want to part with their pork-chops. If you eat rich foods you are going to take on the appearance and disease of wealthy aristocrats and royalty of the past, who got to feast on meat, fat and sugar daily, like most Americans nowadays.

And again sugar.


The last and perhaps most important thing folks need to realize is that the paleo-diet is not sustainable for seven billion people and counting. It takes a tremendous amount of water to grow all the crops to feed the livestock. A California Water Education Foundation study found that it takes nearly a whopping 2500 gallons of water to make a single pound of beef [12]!


Ok that is an argument I can fully agree with. But in this case I am egoistic. I am searching for a diet that is good for me, not for everyone. There is not enough oil on the planet for every person in the world having a car. Still that is no reason for me to not have one.


To me the evidence is quite clear, the same diet that protects you from metabolic-syndrome and increases your longevity, is the same diet that can promote the longevity of our planet and prevents the suffrage of fellow creatures of the earth. It’s a plant-based diet with an emphasis on starches.

That is the queston. Do the things you say also stand when you take sugar out of the equation?



EDIT: and also see what zorba posted above:
In a 2 year study, all (Mediterranean, Low fat, Low carb) diets induce regression of carotid atherosclerosis. [3]


[1] Linda Stern, MD; Nayyar Iqbal, MD; Prakash Seshadri, MD; Kathryn L. Chicano, CRNP; Denise A. Daily, RD; Joyce McGrory, CRNP; Monica Williams, BS; Edward J. Gracely, PhD; and Frederick F. Samaha, MD (2004). "The Effects of Low-Carbohydrate versus Conventional Weight Loss Diets in Severely Obese Adults: One-Year Follow-up of a Randomized Trial". Annals of Internal Medicine 140 (10): 778–85.
[2] Dariush Mozaffarian, Eric B Rimm and David M Herrington (2004). "Dietary fats, carbohydrate, and progression of coronary atherosclerosis in postmenopausal women"
[3] http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20194883

Edited by DeepB, 13 November 2012 - 09:21 AM.

  • like x 2
  • dislike x 1

#27 hivemind

  • Guest
  • 417 posts
  • 60
  • Location:Earth

Posted 13 November 2012 - 02:29 PM

Mediterranean diet = very little red meat and saturated fat.

That low carb/high carb thing is not so significant. If you do low carb, do not do it the Atkins way. Low carb done in the mediterranean way can be healthy. If you do low fat, do not eat junk carbs.

Saturated fat and dietary cholesterol raises cholesterol to supraphysiological levels, which is not healthy. Your arteries start to accumulate plaque when LDL cholesterol is over 80. Optimal level is under 70. Red meat also raises iron levels too high.

Attached File  statin1.png   41.1KB   15 downloads

Edited by hivemind, 13 November 2012 - 02:42 PM.

  • like x 1

#28 hivemind

  • Guest
  • 417 posts
  • 60
  • Location:Earth

Posted 13 November 2012 - 02:50 PM

Many diets reverse Heart Disease through blood pressure regulation:
http://30bananasaday...-heart-disease/

But I believe it is largely a ascorbate deficiency issue that causes arterial damage:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....7?dopt=Abstract

From http://www.lef.org/f...tamin_c_01.html

Our direct observation, based on carotid ultrasound testing, show that very high vitamin C supplement users have remarkably healthy carotid arteries. When adjusted for other factors such as age, elevated homocysteine, LDL cholesterol and glucose, these very high vitamin C takers as a group appear to have less carotid pathology than the general population. A review of previously published findings indicates that consuming a wide variety of very high potency dietary supplements, combined with blood screening to monitor cholesterol, homocysteine, glucose, iron and other atherogenic risk factors, confers a significant protective effect against the development of carotid artery disease.


It's the cholesterol, stupid! :)

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3012294/

During the 1992 presidential campaign in the USA, the Clinton campaign slogan was “It's the economy, stupid,” and that phrase apparently was helpful in getting Mr. Clinton elected president. Several recent publications have been highly critical of some lipid-lowering trials using statin drugs and also have debased the cholesterol “hypothesis” on atherosclerosis (1–3).

What is the evidence that “elevated cholesterol” causes atherosclerosis? There are four supporting arguments in my view (4–7). 1) Atherosclerotic plaques are easily produced experimentally in herbivores (e.g., rabbits, monkeys) simply by feeding these animals cholesterol (e.g., egg yokes) or saturated fats. Indeed, atherosclerosis is probably the second easiest disease to produce experimentally. (The first is an endocrine deficiency—simply excise an endocrine gland.) 2) Cholesterol is present in atherosclerotic plaques in experimentally produced atherosclerosis and in plaques in human beings. 3) Societies and individuals with high serum cholesterol levels (total and low-density lipoprotein [LDL] cholesterol) compared to populations and individuals with low levels have a high frequency of atherosclerotic events, a high frequency of dying from these events, and a large quantity (burden) of plaque in their arteries. (The best study in my view supporting this thesis is the Seven Countries study [8–10].) 4) Lowering total and LDL cholesterol levels decreases the frequency of atherosclerotic events, the chances of dying from these events, and the quantity of plaques in the arteries. No one has produced atherosclerosis experimentally by increasing the arterial blood pressure or glucose levels or by blowing smoke in the faces of rabbits their entire lifetime or by stressing these animals. The only way to produce atherosclerosis experimentally is by feeding high-cholesterol and/or high-saturated-fat diets to herbivores. (Atherosclerosis is not a disease of carnivores, and it is not possible to produce atherosclerosis in carnivores [dogs, cats, tigers, lions, etc.] unless the thyroid gland is removed or made dysfunctional before a high-cholesterol or high-saturated-fat diet is administered [11]).

Why has the proven causal relation between abnormal serum LDL cholesterol and atherosclerosis been so difficult to accept by so many extremely intelligent physicians? One factor, in my view, is that this cholesterol-atherosclerosis causal relation has been diluted by the concept of multiple atherosclerotic risk factors and the idea that atherosclerosis is a multifactorial disease. The Framingham study, which has taught us all so much, introduced the concept of “risk factors” and fostered the view that the greater the number of risk factors present, the greater the chance of atherosclerotic events (12). As a consequence, “elevated cholesterol” became just one of several risk factors and was perceived as essentially having no more influence than elevated systolic blood pressure, diabetes mellitus (“glucose intolerance”), cigarette smoking, abdominal obesity, lack of regular physical activity, family history, or left ventricular hypertrophy except in the younger patients (13). The view that atherosclerosis is a multifactorial disease has muddled the waters in my view. This is not to say that cigarette smoking, elevated blood pressure, diabetes mellitus, obesity, and inactivity are not harmful—of course they are—but if the serum LDL cholesterol is <60 mg/dL or the serum total cholesterol is <150 mg/dL, there is no evidence (with extremely rare exceptions [14]) in my view that these other “risk factors” cause atherosclerosis.

A second factor is the introduction and propagation of the thesis that atherosclerosis is an inflammatory disease (15). Yes, a few mononuclear cells are regularly seen in experimentally produced atherosclerotic plaques but not commonly in plaques of patients with fatal coronary disease or in plaques excised by endarterectomy (16, 17). And, yes, some blood inflammatory markers are commonly elevated in persons with atherosclerotic events. But, many patients have atherosclerotic events when the high-sensitivity (hs) C-reactive protein (CRP) is normal (<1 mg/dL), and patients with the highest levels of hs-CRP (e.g., rheumatoid arthritis, systemic lupus erythematosus) have only a slightly higher frequency of atherosclerotic events than do others of similar age and sex with normal or near-normal hs-CRP levels. The same principle, however, does not apply to cholesterol. The patients with the highest serum levels of total and LDL cholesterol, namely those patients with homozygous familial hypercholesterolemia, have an incredibly high frequency of atherosclerotic events, and they have them at very young ages—teenage years (18). And patients with the next highest serum LDL cholesterol levels, namely those with heterozygous familial hypercholesterolemia, have atherosclerotic events often in their 30s and 40s.

A third factor preventing acceptance of the causal relation between abnormal serum LDL cholesterol and atherosclerosis has been the observation that among adults with nonfamilial hypercholesterolemia but similar levels of serum LDL cholesterol, some develop atherosclerotic events and others do not. It is in this group particularly in my view that the other “risk factors” as well as high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol levels come into play. Of two people of similar age and sex and similar serum LDL cholesterol levels, say 130 mg/dL, the patient whose systolic systemic blood pressure is 170 mm Hg versus the other patient with a systolic pressure of 115 mm Hg is at much greater risk of an atherosclerotic event. And cigarette smoking may work in a similar fashion. Nevertheless, if the serum LDL cholesterol is <60 mg/dL, maybe <50 mg/dL, irrespective of the degree of blood pressure elevation or the number of cigarettes smoked daily, atherosclerotic plaques do not develop.

Another factor may be the use of multiple atherosclerotic risk factors in the guidelines for whom to treat and whom not to treat with lipid-lowering drugs. Although the guidelines do focus on the serum LDL cholesterol level, the number of other “risk factors” present plays a prominent role in this therapeutic decision (19). If no other nonlipid risk factors are present or if only one non-LDL cholesterol risk factor is present and there have been no previous atherosclerotic events and diabetes mellitus is not present, the magical drug treatment number is an LDL cholesterol level >190 mg/dL. Refraining from drug intervention until this very high LDL cholesterol level is reached plays down or even nullifies the importance of cholesterol in preventing events. (It is important to realize that the lipid-lowering drug guidelines [1988, 1993, 2001, and 2004] have to do only with reducing atherosclerotic events. They do not concern themselves with preventing atherosclerotic plaques in the first place. Of course, if atherosclerotic plaques are prevented, atherosclerotic events do not occur!)

Such high guideline drug treatment levels keep, in my view, many persons deserving of lipid-lowering drug therapy from receiving these magical agents (20). The danger of high cholesterol levels to longevity was recognized by the life insurance companies in the 1930s but not by physicians. The normal range of serum total cholesterol in laboratory reports for decades was listed as 150 to 300 mg/dL. In 1972, one of the world's most prominent lipidologists reported that his total cholesterol “worry level” for patients was a value >300 mg/dL. If the expert uses such high numbers, what importance can be placed on cholesterol by the nonexpert community? Incidentally, for the first several decades of the Framingham study, an “elevated cholesterol” was defined as a serum total cholesterol >250 mg/dL. At this level, it is easy to understand how this “risk factor” did not separate itself from the others.

It is time to move on from a goal “to decrease risk” to a goal “to prevent plaques” (21). To do so requires much lower levels of LDL cholesterol than advocated by the guideline publications. My goal for all individuals worldwide is a serum LDL cholesterol at least <100 mg/dL and ideally <60 mg/dL. The beauty of the JUPITER trial is that it dramatically demonstrates what incredible reductions in events can be produced in a short period of time (<2 years) by reducing the LDL cholesterol by 50% even when starting from a level considered by many to be normal (<130 mg). The mean level (108 mg/dL) might be considered “good” or even “great” by many physicians, but lowering it to 55 mg/dL (by rosuvastatin 20 mg/dL) decreased all events by >40%, indeed nearly 50%, including a reduction in stroke by 48%! This trial beautifully shows that we can drastically reduce or even prevent atherosclerotic events and expensive procedures by taking a single pill every day and do it safely. Most Americans will not reach the JUPITER treatment levels (LDL cholesterol 55 mg/dL) by diet alone. The statin drugs have been ingested by humans now for nearly 30 years, and their safety and thus benefit/risk ratio may be the best of any proven useful medication. The toxicity resides mainly in atherosclerosis, not in the drug.

I consider it unfortunate that there continues to be so much criticism of statin drugs, which I consider to be the best cardiovascular drug ever created.[low asterisk] These drugs can prevent first and subsequent atherosclerotic events, they can reduce cardiovascular and all-cause mortality rates, they have the capacity to reduce the quantity of atherosclerotic plaques already present, and by decreasing the frequency of myocardial infarcts they reduce the frequency of heart failure and malignant ventricular arrhythmias. Their ability to reduce the serum levels of CRP may have benefits not yet fully appreciated. The discoverer of the first statin drug (Akira Endo, PhD) is deserving of the Nobel Prize for medicine!

The lower the LDL cholesterol the better, and this principle has been established repeatedly despite the voices of the anticholesterol, antistatin fallacy mongers! It's the cholesterol, stupid!

#29 Polishedbrass

  • Guest
  • 15 posts
  • 2
  • Location:The Netherlands

Posted 13 November 2012 - 03:09 PM

Is there a reason no one yet has suggested a paleo-style diet?


Basically, there are no studies done using the paleo-diet on reversal of atherosclerosis (the number one killer of Americans). The fact that the starch-based diet can reverse atherosclerosis, for me is quite impressive and until other research is done on humans showing reversal of atherosclerotic lesions with another diet (especially one based on meat, like the paleo-diet), choosing any other diet than the starch-based diet makes it risky, does it not? If health were your true goal, would you follow a diet that hasn't been proven to reverse the number one killer of Americans?

Epidemiological studies show that when nations switch from their grain-based veganish diets (like in Japan and India) to rich diets high in meat, fat and simple-sugar they quickly develop metabolic-syndrome [1-9].

The largest dietary change that took place in America in the 20th century was the decrease in beans, grains and potatoes and an increase in meat, dairy, total fat and total sugar [10-11].


I find it interesting that you name 3 different macro nutrients to be the cause of a certain epidemiological phenomenon and then try to conclude something about a diet that is focussed on just two of these three components.
Furthermore an all important phenomenon is completely left out here, that is the overconsumption of macro nutrients and calories and a possible underconsumption of micronutrients and fiber. Epidemiological studies are a very, very iffy object to draw more specific conclusions from.
These are taken into extremes and compared only in these extremes.
The American diet too low in fiber, too high in saturated fats, too high in refined carbs, too high in calories and too low in micronutrients. It is laughable to expect to base any conclusions regarding a balanced diet out of these epidemiological finds.
Furthermore this says nothing of diets that are for example high in fat and protein, but also contain enough vegetables for adequate micronutrients and fiber.

A reasonable comparison would be a balanced diet that included meat (but also sufficient plant based foods/micro nutrients/fiber and not an excess of calories) against the same diet only with the exemption of meat (and some supplements/foods to acount for it) Only then we might have a little more reason to establish the 'evils' of animal based foods. These studies are very hard to conduct.


I myself am of the view that we need to cut back our emphasis on animal proteins for both environmental reasons as well as animal welfare. Though studies on the "ideal diet" are divided into radical camps and at this point none can point out which one of them is right.
I think time will show that a more moderate approach will be the right one and individual genetic variance will be a factor determining which diet might be the "ideal" diet for them. In the same way as different cultures have supported themselves in very different geographical locations with different available resources.

I would also like to add that longevity in itself is not everything. Emphasis on very low protein intake might prolong your life a bit though in what state? Maintenance of muscularity and strength into high age is vital to quality of life at that age and will require adequate protein intake for example.

Edited by Polishedbrass, 13 November 2012 - 03:15 PM.

  • like x 1

#30 hippocampus

  • Guest
  • 736 posts
  • 112
  • Location:medial temporal lobe, brain

Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:41 PM

not all fats are unhealthy: mono- and polyunsaturated fats are healthy. not all kinds of sugar containing food is unhealthy - if it has enough fiber it's ok. moderation, moderation, moderation! (but even moderation in moderation).

I think we all agree that saturated fats and refined sugar is bad and that vegetables and moderate amounts of fruit/berries are healthy. So are fatty fish (with omega-3). That's what everybody agree about.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users