70 replies to this topic

[DeepB]

It's the cholesterol, stupid!

Is it really total cholesterol? or total LDL cholesterol? I always thought that it was the ratio between LDL and HDL...

[hivemind]

It's the cholesterol, stupid!

Is it really total cholesterol? or total LDL cholesterol? I always thought that it was the ratio between LDL and HDL...

It is mostly the LDL cholesterol level. Total cholesterol is good too because low TC means low LDL.

LDL/HDL ratio is not very useful. High LDL is not good no matter what the HDL is.

[hivemind]

not all fats are unhealthy: mono- and polyunsaturated fats are healthy. not all kinds of sugar containing food is unhealthy - if it has enough fiber it's ok. moderation, moderation, moderation! (but even moderation in moderation).

I think we all agree that saturated fats and refined sugar is bad and that vegetables and moderate amounts of fruit/berries are healthy. So are fatty fish (with omega-3). That's what everybody agree about.

That saturated fat thing is a never ending battle. In my country the saturated fat war has been going on at least from the 70's. Many people just refuse to accept the fact that saturated fat is not healthy..

There are no real experts or academic researches on the side of the pro saturated fat people. Still, the debate never ends. Then there are people like Dariush Mozzaffarian from Harvard, who try to make up even more confusion. :D

[misterE]

It's the cholesterol, stupid!

Is it really total cholesterol?

Yes.

Dr. Esselstyn says to get total cholesterol below 150. Doing this allows dissolving of the plaques and you make you “heart-attack proof”!

Esselstyns diet is whole-grains, beans, vegetables (including starchy vegetables) and three fruits a day. No animal products, oil, nuts, avocadoes or olives, juice or refined sugar.


--In regards to your alluding on the previous page about sugar being the "main culprit" is not entirely true. The reason why sugar gets a bad rap is because it is very lipogenic (meaning it can convert into body-fat very easily). Sugar (sucrose) contains 50% fructose. That fructose is converted into palmitic-acid (a saturated-fatty acid) in the liver in a process called de-novo-lipogenesis. The saturated-fatty acids synthesized from the fructose then go on to impair insulin-signaling.

Starch on the other hand isn't able to convert into fat under normal circumstances. The body would rather burn that glucose up instantly for energy any excess is stored as glycogen. Starch metabolism doesn't produce damaging fatty-acids like sugar metabolism does.

So if you eat a lot of meat (like you do on the paleo-diet) you are putting saturated-fatty-acids into your body. If you drink a bunch of soda, you are (essentially, thru conversion of fructose to palmitic-acid) putting in the same saturated-fatty-acids. There is no change metabolically!

Why would you follow a meat-based diet (like the paleo-diet)? There’s no glucose in meat. The body runs on glucose… so give it lots of glucose! Beans, breads, grains and potatoes are loaded with glucose. The paleo-diet is nearly “glucose deficient”. They exclude all sources of glucose except for tubers.

[zorba990]

Opinions vary:
http://articles.merc...drates-age.aspx

Low cholesterol is not associated with longevity, in fact the opposite is true:
http://www.drbriffa....l-cause-cancer/
http://phys.org/news203844242.html
http://healthimpactn...anded-lifespan/

Animals That Make Vitamin C, Don't Get Atherosclerotic Heart Disease
http://www.drdach.co...rt_Disease.html

Edited by zorba990, 14 November 2012 - 04:47 AM.

[hippocampus]

not all fats are unhealthy: mono- and polyunsaturated fats are healthy. not all kinds of sugar containing food is unhealthy - if it has enough fiber it's ok. moderation, moderation, moderation! (but even moderation in moderation).

I think we all agree that saturated fats and refined sugar is bad and that vegetables and moderate amounts of fruit/berries are healthy. So are fatty fish (with omega-3). That's what everybody agree about.

That saturated fat thing is a never ending battle. In my country the saturated fat war has been going on at least from the 70's. Many people just refuse to accept the fact that saturated fat is not healthy..

There are no real experts or academic researches on the side of the pro saturated fat people. Still, the debate never ends. Then there are people like Dariush Mozzaffarian from Harvard, who try to make up even more confusion. :D

That's like saying that "creationism vs. evolution" is a never ending battle.

It's the cholesterol, stupid!

Is it really total cholesterol?

Yes.

Dr. Esselstyn says to get total cholesterol below 150. Doing this allows dissolving of the plaques and you make you “heart-attack proof”!

Esselstyns diet is whole-grains, beans, vegetables (including starchy vegetables) and three fruits a day. No animal products, oil, nuts, avocadoes or olives, juice or refined sugar.


--In regards to your alluding on the previous page about sugar being the "main culprit" is not entirely true. The reason why sugar gets a bad rap is because it is very lipogenic (meaning it can convert into body-fat very easily). Sugar (sucrose) contains 50% fructose. That fructose is converted into palmitic-acid (a saturated-fatty acid) in the liver in a process called de-novo-lipogenesis. The saturated-fatty acids synthesized from the fructose then go on to impair insulin-signaling.

Starch on the other hand isn't able to convert into fat under normal circumstances. The body would rather burn that glucose up instantly for energy any excess is stored as glycogen. Starch metabolism doesn't produce damaging fatty-acids like sugar metabolism does.

So if you eat a lot of meat (like you do on the paleo-diet) you are putting saturated-fatty-acids into your body. If you drink a bunch of soda, you are (essentially, thru conversion of fructose to palmitic-acid) putting in the same saturated-fatty-acids. There is no change metabolically!

Why would you follow a meat-based diet (like the paleo-diet)? There’s no glucose in meat. The body runs on glucose… so give it lots of glucose! Beans, breads, grains and potatoes are loaded with glucose. The paleo-diet is nearly “glucose deficient”. They exclude all sources of glucose except for tubers.

Ketosis is not bad for ya'.

[hivemind]

Opinions vary:
http://articles.merc...drates-age.aspx

Low cholesterol is not associated with longevity, in fact the opposite is true:
http://www.drbriffa....l-cause-cancer/
http://phys.org/news203844242.html
http://healthimpactn...anded-lifespan/

Animals That Make Vitamin C, Don't Get Atherosclerotic Heart Disease
http://www.drdach.co...rt_Disease.html

That is simply not true.
Mercola is not scientifically valid information. This is not a matter of opinion.
But yes, you can find many unscientific sites on the internet that deny everything starting with the lipid hypothesis which is scientifically proven beyond any doubt by now. (it was proven already in the early 80's) You can also find all kinds of silly conspiracy theories.

http://content.onlin...ticleid=1379036

Edited by hivemind, 14 November 2012 - 12:54 PM.

[zorba990]

Opinions vary:
http://articles.merc...drates-age.aspx

Low cholesterol is not associated with longevity, in fact the opposite is true:
http://www.drbriffa....l-cause-cancer/
http://phys.org/news203844242.html
http://healthimpactn...anded-lifespan/

Animals That Make Vitamin C, Don't Get Atherosclerotic Heart Disease
http://www.drdach.co...rt_Disease.html

That is simply not true.
Mercola is not scientifically valid information. This is not a matter of opinion.
But yes, you can find many unscientific sites on the internet that deny everything starting with the lipid hypothesis which is scientifically proven beyond any doubt by now. (it was proven already in the early 80's) You can also find all kinds of silly conspiracy theories.

http://content.onlin...ticleid=1379036

Science's conclusions on the subject seem to vary:

http://wholehealthso...diet-heart.html

[hivemind]

Science's conclusions on the subject seem to vary:

http://wholehealthso...diet-heart.html

That person is another cholesterol denialist and a layman. Internet blogs are not the best source of information on this topic.

[zorba990]

Science's conclusions on the subject seem to vary:

http://wholehealthso...diet-heart.html

That person is another cholesterol denialist and a layman. Internet blogs are not the best source of information on this topic.

And all these journals are 'layman'?
From : http://wholehealthso...diet-heart.html

A Sampling of Unsupportive Studies

Here are references to ten high-impact prospective studies, spanning half a century, showing no association between saturated fat consumption and heart attack risk. Ignore the squirming about saturated-to-polyunsaturated ratios, Keys/Hegsted scores, etc. What we're concerned with is the straightforward question: do people who eat more saturated fat have more heart attacks? Many of these papers allow free access to the full text, so have a look for yourselves if you want:

A Longitudinal Study of Coronary Heart Disease. Circulation. 1963.

Diet and Heart: a Postscript. British Medical Journal. 1977. Saturated fat was unrelated to heart attack risk, but fiber was protective.

Dietary Intake and the Risk of Coronary Heart Disease in Japanese Men Living in Hawaii. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 1978.

Relationship of Dietary Intake to Subsequent Coronary Heart Disease Incidence: the Puerto Rico Heart Health Program. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 1980.

Diet, Serum Cholesterol, and Death From Coronary Heart Disease: The Western Electric Study. New England Journal of Medicine. 1981.

Diet and 20-year Mortality in Two Rural Population Groups of Middle-Aged Men in Italy. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 1989. Men who died of CHD ate significantly less saturated fat than men who didn't.

Diet and Incident Ischaemic Heart Disease: the Caerphilly Study. British Journal of Nutrition. 1993.They measured animal fat intake rather than saturated fat in this study.

Dietary Fat and Risk of Coronary Heart Disease in Men: Cohort Follow-up Study in the United States. British Medical Journal. 1996. This is the massive Physicians Health Study. Don't let the abstract fool you! Scroll down to table 2 and see for yourself that the association between saturated fat intake and heart attack risk disappears after adjustment for several factors including family history of heart attack, smoking and fiber intake. That's because, as in most modern studies, people who eat steak are also more likely to smoke, avoid vegetables, eat fast food, etc.

Dietary Fat Intake and the Risk of Coronary Heart Disease in Women. New England Journal of Medicine. 1997. From the massive Nurse's Health study. This one fooled me for a long time because the abstract is misleading. It claims that saturated fat was associated with heart attack risk. However, the association disappeared without a trace when they adjusted for monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fat intake. Have a look at table 3.

Dietary Fat Intake and Early Mortality Patterns-- Data from the Malmo Diet and Cancer Study. Journal of Internal Medicine. 2005.
I just listed 10 prospective studies published in top peer-reviewed journals that found no association between saturated fat and heart disease risk. This is less than half of the prospective studies that have come to the same conclusion, representing by far the majority of studies to date. If saturated fat is anywhere near as harmful as we're told, why are its effects essentially undetectable in the best studies we can muster?

[hivemind]

And all these journals are 'layman'?

Those are observational cohort studies done with mostly western populations.

That kind of studies are not reliable. The base diet is very unhealthy: saturated fat just replaces something even more unhealthy. There are also problems with regression dilutation bias.

http://ajcn.nutritio...92/2/459.2.full

Edited by hivemind, 14 November 2012 - 06:26 PM.

[zorba990]

Dr. Rath's Study (vitamin c and supporting nutrients)
http://www.drrathres...osclerosis.html


http://www.drrathres...rt-disease.html
Dr. Rath identified and our research has proven that atherosclerosis is nature’s plaster cast for weak and cracked arterial walls that are chronically deficient in vitamin C and other essential nutrients.

[DeepB]

I think I decided for a high-fat low-carb diet. For those saying that that is unhealthy, what would you suggest me to do to monitor my risk?
Regular cholestrerol tests? Regular IMT-tests?

[spirilla01]

sounds like a sensible choice. Someone is got to stop this MisterE spamming this forum with nonsens.

[misterE]

I think I decided for a high-fat low-carb diet. For those saying that that is unhealthy, what would you suggest me to do to monitor my risk?
Regular cholestrerol tests? Regular IMT-tests?

Low-carb diets high in animal-protein and animal-fat increase the risk of diabetes, while diets high in plant-protein and plant-fats decreased the risk [1]. Have your insulin-sensitivity monitored.



[1] Am J Clin Nutr. 2011 Apr;93(4):844-50. Epub 2011 Feb 10. Low-carbohydrate diet scores and risk of type 2 diabetes in men. de Koning L, Fung TT, Liao X.

Edited by misterE, 16 November 2012 - 09:39 PM.

[hivemind]

I think I decided for a high-fat low-carb diet. For those saying that that is unhealthy, what would you suggest me to do to monitor my risk?
Regular cholestrerol tests? Regular IMT-tests?

It is not unhealthy if you eat unsaturated fats and low cholesterol.

Cholesterol tests, total cholesterol under 150 and LDL under 70.

Edited by hivemind, 17 November 2012 - 12:49 AM.

[Chupo]

Low-carb diets high in animal-protein and animal-fat increase the risk of diabetes, while diets high in plant-protein and plant-fats decreased the risk [1]. Have your insulin-sensitivity monitored.



[1] Am J Clin Nutr. 2011 Apr;93(4):844-50. Epub 2011 Feb 10. Low-carbohydrate diet scores and risk of type 2 diabetes in men. de Koning L, Fung TT, Liao X.

I just read that study. It says, "A higher carbohydrate consumption was also associated with an increased risk of diabetes in a comparison of extreme deciles (RR: 1.26; 95% CI: 1.07, 1.49; P for trend = 0.003).
Conclusion: These data suggest that diets lower in carbohydrate and higher in fat and protein do not increase the risk of type 2 diabetes in women. In fact, diets rich in vegetable sources of fat and protein may modestly reduce the risk of diabetes."

That was observational though. Here are some controlled trials:

Compared to corresponding values after the very low-carbohydrate diet, fasting total cholesterol, LDL-C, and HDL-C were significantly (p < or = 0.05) lower, whereas fasting glucose, insulin, and insulin resistance (calculated using the homeostatic model assessment) were significantly higher after the low-fat diet. Both diets significantly decreased postprandial lipemia and resulted in similar nonsignificant changes in the total cholesterol/HDL-C ratio, fasting triacylglycerols, oxidized LDL, and LDL subclass distribution.
CONCLUSIONS:

Compared to a low-fat weight loss diet, a short-term very low-carbohydrate diet did not lower LDL-C but did prevent the decline in HDL-C and resulted in improved insulin sensitivity in overweight and obese, but otherwise healthy women. Small decreases in body mass improved postprandial lipemia, and therefore cardiovascular risk, independent of diet composition.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15047685

All diet regimens are associated with a significant reduction in BMI and improvement of some metabolic parameters in obese adolescents. Low-carbohydrate diets apparently have no advantage over high-carbohydrate low-fat diets. The significant drop in insulin level and HOMA in the low carbohydrate diet groups is noteworthy given the increasing frequency of type-2 diabetes as part of metabolic syndrome in children and youth. The impact of low carbohydrate diets in obese and insulin-resistant youth warrants further investigation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18826492

Another benefit of low carb diets is that it activates AMPK and Sirtuins,[1] both of which are associated with longevity[2]. Activated AMPK, in turn stimulates endothelial NO (nitric oxide) production in the blood vessels, which is beneficial for cardiovascular health. [3] Low carb diets are also anti-inflammatory. [4]


[1] Effect of dietary macronutrient composition on AMPK and SIRT1 expression and activity in human skeletal muscle.

[2] AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK) controls the aging process via an integrated signaling network.

[3] Direct activation of AMP-activated protein kinase stimulates nitric-oxide synthesis in human aortic endothelial cells

[4] Comparison of low fat and low carbohydrate diets on circulating fatty acid composition and markers of inflammation.

Edited by Chupoman, 17 November 2012 - 10:13 PM.

[hivemind]

Dietary fat is the nutrient that is most closely associated
in epidemiologic studies with the risk of developing T2DM.
Although dietary fats clearly have an impact on total
caloric intake (related to their calore density) and on circulating
lipids, they have a minimal impact on glycemia
acutely. Fat intake is a contributor to obesity and is the
critical nutrient for cardiovascular risk management. It is
recommended that people with diabetes (and everyone in
general) consume a diet that is modestly restricted in calories
(if overweight) and contains less than 10% of total
calories as saturated fat and less than 10% as polyunsaturated
fat. Some advocate substituting foods high in monounsaturated
fatty acids (i.e., seeds, nuts, avocado, olives,
olive oil, and canola oil) for carbohydrate, but most patients
do not find adequate variety in the monounsaturated fatty
acid category and often overeat these high-calorie foods.
Higher-carbohydrate diets can raise postprandial glucose
and triglycerides but are much less calorically dense than
higher-fat diets and have a higher thermic effect, both of
which tend to promote weight loss.

I think I decided for a high-fat low-carb diet. For those saying that that is unhealthy, what would you suggest me to do to monitor my risk?
Regular cholestrerol tests? Regular IMT-tests?

It is not unhealthy if you eat unsaturated fats and low cholesterol.

Cholesterol tests, total cholesterol under 150 and LDL under 70.

Can't eat too much of any fat however. Fat tends to increase your weight. It has almost 9 Kcal per gram, more than twice the amount carbohydrate or protein has.

Edited by hivemind, 18 November 2012 - 02:43 AM.

[hivemind]

Low carb diets are also anti-inflammatory. [4]

Saturated fat is pro-inflammatory.

[Chupo]

Low carb diets are also anti-inflammatory. [4]

Saturated fat is pro-inflammatory.

There is no contradiction. Saturated fat doesn't hang out in the blood on low carb like it does on low fat diets.

http://rdfeinman.wor...-in-your-blood/

Edited by Chupoman, 18 November 2012 - 03:29 AM.

[Hebbeh]

Dietary fat is the nutrient that is most closely associated
in epidemiologic studies with the risk of developing T2DM.
Although dietary fats clearly have an impact on total
caloric intake (related to their calore density) and on circulating
lipids, they have a minimal impact on glycemia
acutely. Fat intake is a contributor to obesity and is the
critical nutrient for cardiovascular risk management. It is
recommended that people with diabetes (and everyone in
general) consume a diet that is modestly restricted in calories
(if overweight) and contains less than 10% of total
calories as saturated fat and less than 10% as polyunsaturated
fat. Some advocate substituting foods high in monounsaturated
fatty acids (i.e., seeds, nuts, avocado, olives,
olive oil, and canola oil) for carbohydrate, but most patients
do not find adequate variety in the monounsaturated fatty
acid category and often overeat these high-calorie foods.
Higher-carbohydrate diets can raise postprandial glucose
and triglycerides but are much less calorically dense than
higher-fat diets and have a higher thermic effect, both of
which tend to promote weight loss.

Can't eat too much of any fat however. Fat tends to increase your weight. It has almost 9 Kcal per gram, more than twice the amount carbohydrate or protein has.

You (and the text book) are making the critical assumption that dietary lipids are associated with eating in caloric excess and I can assure you that is not the case except in Joe Couch Potato. Compare apples to apples...and not compare to the gluttonous diet of the obese. Of course eating in caloric excess will always lead to ill health...no surprises there. Dietary lipids are not the villain...over consumption is the problem....and that is what the text book is describing...obesity. Many healthy people don't prescribe to a high carb diet...but eat healthy...which includes healthy fats. But like all nutrients, not all dietary fats are created equal...some lipids are associated with greater benefits. There are essential fatty acids....but I've never heard of an essential carb. Eliminating all dietary fat would have much greater negative health consequences rather than eliminating all carbs. In the end, obesity and T2DM is a disease of over consumption and lack of activity...not a macro nutrient imbalance.

Edited by Hebbeh, 18 November 2012 - 03:26 AM.

[Chupo]

Can't eat too much of any fat however. Fat tends to increase your weight. It has almost 9 Kcal per gram, more than twice the amount carbohydrate or protein has.

It doesn't matter. Time and time again studies show that people voluntarily consume fewer calories on low carb diets while low fat diets have to be calorie restricted. I eat once a day and simply have no desire for food the rest of the day.

[hivemind]

Low carb diets are also anti-inflammatory. [4]

Saturated fat is pro-inflammatory.

There is no contradiction. Saturated fat doesn't hang out in the blood on low carb like it does on low fat diets.

http://rdfeinman.wor...-in-your-blood/

Don't know about that, but saturated fat raises inflammation markers.

But the whole systemic inflammation theory is not very scientific. It's just speculation.

Edited by hivemind, 18 November 2012 - 03:59 AM.

[hivemind]

You (and the text book) are making the critical assumption that dietary lipids are associated with eating in caloric excess and I can assure you that is not the case except in Joe Couch Potato. Compare apples to apples...and not compare to the gluttonous diet of the obese. Of course eating in caloric excess will always lead to ill health...no surprises there. Dietary lipids are not the villain...over consumption is the problem....and that is what the text book is describing...obesity. Many healthy people don't prescribe to a high carb diet...but eat healthy...which includes healthy fats. But like all nutrients, not all dietary fats are created equal...some lipids are associated with greater benefits. There are essential fatty acids....but I've never heard of an essential carb. Eliminating all dietary fat would have much greater negative health consequences rather than eliminating all carbs. In the end, obesity and T2DM is a disease of over consumption and lack of activity...not a macro nutrient imbalance.

There is an epidemiological association. Of course not all healthy people eat low fat. That is not what it reads there. High fat consumption increases the risk of T2DM and weight gain.

Saturated fat is not an essential fatty acid. The needed amounts of EFAs are very small.

You can't eliminate all fat or all carbohydrate. It makes no sense. Carbs(glucose) are the primary fuel the body(and brain) prefers.

Edited by hivemind, 18 November 2012 - 03:57 AM.

[Hebbeh]

here is an epidemiological association. Of course not all healthy people eat low fat. That is not what it reads there. High fat consumption increases the risk of T2DM and weight gain.

The epidemiological association is correlated with overeating as evidenced by weight gain and not macro nutrient balance. Don't confuse dietary lipids with T2DM and weight gain caused by over consumption and eating to excess....these are two different issues.

[hivemind]

here is an epidemiological association. Of course not all healthy people eat low fat. That is not what it reads there. High fat consumption increases the risk of T2DM and weight gain.

The epidemiological association is correlated with overeating as evidenced by weight gain and not macro nutrient balance. Don't confuse dietary lipids with T2DM and weight gain caused by over consumption and eating to excess....these are two different issues.

High fat intake correlates with overeating more than high carb intake. Fat people eat fat.

Edited by hivemind, 18 November 2012 - 04:06 AM.

[Hebbeh]

High fat intake correlates with overeating more than high carb intake. Fat people eat fat.

Fat people overeat. People that eat fat but don't overeat are not fat. Overeating and dietary fat are two completely separate and unrelated issues. Correlating dietary fat with overeating and obesity is simply an excuse to blame dietary fat for poor lifestyle choices rather than take responsibility for overeating. What's so hard to understand about the concept that fat doesn't make people fat but overeating makes people fat. It's the calories (and lifestyle)...not the fat!

[hivemind]

http://www.jacn.org/.../3/207.full.pdf

Individuals of all ages who consume a diet with fewer than
30% of calories from fat consistently have lower energy intakes.
The data suggest that reducing fat intake is one effective
strategy for also reducing total energy consumption

[Hebbeh]

http://www.jacn.org/.../3/207.full.pdf

Individuals of all ages who consume a diet with fewer than
30% of calories from fat consistently have lower energy intakes.
The data suggest that reducing fat intake is one effective
strategy for also reducing total energy consumption

You left out this part...

The typical American diet is linked to obesity, heart diseases and certain forms of cancer.

They are referring to the "typical American diet" which we all know is garbage junk food. We are not discussing the typical junk food diet in this thread. Nobody is suggesting pork rinds or McD's. Like I said...compare apples to apples. We are not discussing an obese person's dietary expertise. What's so hard to understand about the concept that dietary fat is independent of a junk food diet? And....

The data suggest that reducing fat intake is one effective strategy for also reducing total energy consumption

It says ONE strategy...not the only strategy or even the best strategy.

edit...and the strategy they are really discussing is....

reducing total energy consumption

which indicates they are describing overeating once again....not a macro nutrient imbalance.

Edited by Hebbeh, 18 November 2012 - 05:10 AM.

[hivemind]

It's just harder to be thin by eating a lot of fat because of the energy density.