23 replies to this topic

[cinnabar]

Can someone explain why it might be that when I take FMN (25-50mg sublingually) before going to sleep, I feel much more creative than usual the following day?

It does not work with regular riboflavin, and it does not help with getting things done (i.e. focus and motivation) unless it is something creatively inspired. So, for example, I might be inspired to write some fiction, but I still have trouble with studying or learning something new.

[golden1]

FMN =??

[cinnabar]

from wikipedia:

Flavin mononucleotide (FMN), or riboflavin-5′-phosphate, is a biomolecule produced from riboflavin (vitamin B2) by the enzyme riboflavin kinase...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavin_mononucleotide

[golden1]

Hmm sounds interesting, I can't think of a real reason it would do that at the moment. If i have a chance to get some and try it I'll let you know if it happens to me too though.
wild guess would be:

In its role as blue-light photo receptor, (oxidized) FMN stands out from the 'conventional' photo receptors as the signaling state and not an E/Z isomerization.

https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=blue+light+sleep
^many things show blue light especially will interrupt sleep.

so maybe somehow you get deeper sleep or you are more awake from being able to better sense blue light when you wake up?
I don't know why riboflavin wouldn't have that effect though and like i said wild guess.

[Pirate]

Cinnabar, what are you taking the FMN for?

[Turnbuckle]

Can someone explain why it might be that when I take FMN (25-50mg sublingually) before going to sleep, I feel much more creative than usual the following day?

It does not work with regular riboflavin, and it does not help with getting things done (i.e. focus and motivation) unless it is something creatively inspired. So, for example, I might be inspired to write some fiction, but I still have trouble with studying or learning something new.

Riboflavin 5'-phosphate is an activator of brain glutaminase, glutaminase generates glutamate from glutamine, and glutamate is involved with synaptic plasticity.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 14 November 2012 - 04:34 PM.

[cinnabar]

Cinnabar, what are you taking the FMN for?

When I was trying to deal with my chemical sensitivies, I tried it occasionally. It sometimes helped with dealing with solvent exposure. The creativity side effect was unexpected.

Riboflavin 5'-phosphate is an activator of brain glutaminase, glutaminase generates glutamate from glutamine, and glutamate is involved with synaptic plasticity.

Thank you!

This is interesting because I am sensitive to any glutamates (or things that convert to it) in food. I don't get any of the same negative side effects from FMN. However I do notice that FMN taken as a sublingual tablet while sleeping (i.e. slow release, takes hours to dissolve) works far better than the powder (sublingually), as the powder ends up being mildly stimulating, supporting the idea of glutamate. If the FMN effect is due to increased brain glutamate, it does suggest to me that the spaciness and headache from ingested glutamate is gut or liver related rather than just in the head.

[cinnabar]

If anyone is interested in trying it:
I should clarify that in my experience, the effect happens only after sleeping with FMN, and is noticeable most of the next day, but the tablet works a lot better than the powder, even at a lower dose. I didn't notice increased creativity if it was taken at other times of the day, even with a midday nap.

[Turnbuckle]

Riboflavin 5'-phosphate is an activator of brain glutaminase, glutaminase generates glutamate from glutamine, and glutamate is involved with synaptic plasticity.

Thank you!

This is interesting because I am sensitive to any glutamates (or things that convert to it) in food. I don't get any of the same negative side effects from FMN. However I do notice that FMN taken as a sublingual tablet while sleeping (i.e. slow release, takes hours to dissolve) works far better than the powder (sublingually), as the powder ends up being mildly stimulating, supporting the idea of glutamate. If the FMN effect is due to increased brain glutamate, it does suggest to me that the spaciness and headache from ingested glutamate is gut or liver related rather than just in the head.

Have you noticed the ketamine thread?

In their research, Duman and others show that in a series of steps ketamine triggers release of neurotransmitter glutamate, which in turn stimulates growth of synapses.

So why not just take glutamine and riboflavin 5'-phosphate--an excellent activator of glutaminase in the brain? Glutaminase generates glutamate from glutamine, and there you are.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 15 November 2012 - 09:03 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

I gave this stuff a try yesterday and I think it works. Yesterday I took a 50 mg capsule of riboflavin 5'-phosphate, a tablespoon of glutamine and magnesium ascorbate, and today, working on a novel, I felt especially sharp. The glutamine I added because of the ketamine study and the magnesium ascorbate as an anti-oxidant and for the potentially nootropic effects of magnesium. Next I'll add in magesium threonate.

[Psionic]

I am looking forward to more trials.. what about higher doses?

[Pirate]

Turnbuckle, are you still experimenting?

[Pirate]

...a tablespoon of glutamine and magnesium ascorbate,

Do you absolutely need these other supps?

[Turnbuckle]

...a tablespoon of glutamine and magnesium ascorbate,

Do you absolutely need these other supps?

Glutamine is half the idea, isn't it? And yeah, I've tried it three times so far, but I don't recommend it for every day. Once a week at the most, and maybe a teaspoon instead of a tablespoon. Creating too much glutamate in the brain can't be a good thing. Vitamin C & E have been shown to reduce or block the toxic effects of glutamate in rats, so those would be good additions.

[cinnabar]

i was under the impression that glutamine transport to the human brain was well controlled and dietary glutamine didn't have much impact on it, e.g.
http://jn.nutrition....ent/130/4/1016S

I think its worth trying without the glutamine anyways.

edit: link refers to glutamate but does mention glutamine in the text

Edited by cinnabar, 24 November 2012 - 04:53 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

i was under the impression that glutamine transport to the human brain was well controlled and dietary glutamine didn't have much impact on it, e.g.
http://jn.nutrition....ent/130/4/1016S

I think its worth trying without the glutamine anyways.

edit: link refers to glutamate but does mention glutamine in the text

Glutamine moves into the brain while glutamate does not, but if you already have sufficient glutamine the FMN will work without further supplementation.

Glutamine moves from the plasma across the blood-brain barrier (BBB) by a facilitated process, albeit slowly, compared with other neutral amino acids...

Glutamate is an amino acid that functions as an excitatory neurotransmitter and normally does not enter the brain.

http://ajpcell.physi...74/4/C1101.full

Edited by Turnbuckle, 24 November 2012 - 05:12 PM.

[Pirate]

.... but if you already have sufficient glutamine the FMN will work without further supplementation.

How can you tell if you have sufficient glutamine already?
Assuming you can't tell except by taking a dose of it, how much glutamine should I take?
(I have both FMN and glutamine on hand now)

[Turnbuckle]

.... but if you already have sufficient glutamine the FMN will work without further supplementation.

How can you tell if you have sufficient glutamine already?
Assuming you can't tell except by taking a dose of it, how much glutamine should I take?
(I have both FMN and glutamine on hand now)

Try it both ways.

[kevinseven11]

This will synergize with piracetam. It might even synergize eith creatinine

[Pirate]

.... but if you already have sufficient glutamine the FMN will work without further supplementation.

How can you tell if you have sufficient glutamine already?
Assuming you can't tell except by taking a dose of it, how much glutamine should I take?
(I have both FMN and glutamine on hand now)

Try it both ways.

How much glutamine did you use Turnbuckle?

[Pirate]

I took it last night without glutamine, today, I don't feel any less or more creative.

Has anyone else tried this recently.

I still have no idea how much glutamine to add, I have tried 2g in capsule form, l-glutamine actually, without any major differences. It was a while ago now, but I recall having a good thinking day the next day.

[Pirate]

Okay, I'm pretty quick witted today. Has to be more to nootropics then one-liners though, surely!

[Duchykins]

Good catch, Furniture, you're absolutely right.

 

Riboflavin is awesome and a major player in migraine prophylaxis for exactly those reasons you mentioned:

 

1) improves mitochondrial function

2) keeps ATP flowing smoothly and consistently, preventing a buildup of calcium ions in the cell

3) puts mitochondrial calcium permeability in check, which comes in handy in the event of elevated extracellular glutamate

4) prevents a vicious cycle of elevated intracellular Ca ions triggering extracellular glutamate release triggering Ca channels to open so ions enter the cell, on and on, till cell death

5) and therefore keeps you rolling in ATP and raises your glutamate excitotoxicity threshold

 

 

 

There is no way I could thrive or even barely tolerate hundreds of mg of riboflavin (both R5P and USP) daily if it didn't do this.

 

There is stronger evidence for the efficacy of riboflavin in migraine prophylaxis than even magnesium.  Now that is saying something.

 

R5P seemed better than the riboflavin USP because the USP is a precursor in this case.  Same with the other B vitamins.   

 

He got creative because his mitochondria were happy.

 

Will theoretically synergize with other substances that are major-moderately involved in mitochondrial energy production & transport: coQ10, creatine, taurine, carnitine, citrulline, pantethine & other active Bs, magnesium/potassium ...

Edited by Duchykins, 04 August 2015 - 07:47 PM.