188 replies to this topic

[nupi]

Did you use straight up Ethylphenidate (which would be interesting because it is less active at NET than MPH itself) or did it convert from MPH in your body because of the booze? ADHD people tell me MPH can be quite sustainable if used properly, so there might indeed be a chance there.

Edited by nupi, 05 January 2013 - 10:45 AM.

[machete234]

No it was the substance allready before ingesting, alcohol is more or less because you drink anyways when going out and it makes it even less speedy.

Edited by machete234, 05 January 2013 - 11:03 AM.

[nupi]

Is that available from pharmacies or just RC sites?

[norepinephrine]

Nupi,
Have you given CILTEP a try? I think it'll tackle two birds with one stone for you - increased T from the forskolin, and CILTEP with phenylalanine/tyrosine + a stimulant acts on the dopaminergic system. I personally found I started to develop a tolerance to it in my first trial but am giving it a second run with quercetin.

[nupi]

As for CILTEP, I am a little wary about the purported hepatoxicity of Coleus Forskolii - I guess I need to find pure Forskolin to mess around with. Also the tolerance sounds like it may not be very helpful long term. I've been meaning to skim through that thread again...

[evolvedhuman2012]

actually i like to add point of view and approach matter too.

yes you can chase a girl that 10 other guys are after and if you win her over and she likes you, thats great.

and then there chasing a girl thats not interested in you. it could be a deadend and waste of time regardless of how much you want to "do" her.

in my opinion it is much easier to court a girl thats into you. and if she not bad, you may want to forgot about the one you really want but is not into you. it could be much easier and more rewarding that way.



yea, conservative ideology like the "man must chase woman" is one view. but our reality is a pretty complex place and things aren't always set in stone. that could be easier means to courting. but then again ,everything is also subjective and boils down to what is acceptable and whats not.

[nupi]

Of course it helps to pursue a girl that is into you. But with women communicating the way they do, that is not always all that obvious...

[norepinephrine]

Nupi,

What I'm somewhat confused about is why you don't take issue with taking methylphenidate or amphetamine to enhance sociability, but come up with caveats for CILTEP that would just the same effect the prior two (well, amphetamine is positively neurotoxic instead of possibly hepatoxic, but I'd take the latter over the former any day).

I don't really think the inelegant brain-dumping dopamine mechanism of common ADHD drugs are really good for anyone long-term, based on the scientific literature as well as prior prescriptions in elementary/middle school. A better way to go about it would probably be MAO or COMT-inhibitors (of which quercetin and green tea are two I'm currently using, and deprenyl is the more obvious pharmaceutical choice).

[nupi]

Adderral is more or less out of question considering that AMP is not really on the market in Switzerland. MPH might actually be neuroprotective rather than neurotoxic.

I am not all that convinced that MAOI and especially COMTI (nasty stuff if you read wikipedia) are any more elegant. If we could find a long half life, strnger version of Caffeine, that might already help because I have noticed that since I am on Fluoxetine, Caffeine actually has an effect - on mood and energy

[Raptor87]

I don't think the confidence solution lies in pills. Although they can be of an aid if one finds something that works for him. But I think that finding a drug or drugcombo will be like finding a needle in the haystack. One should just as well continuing facing the world.

Edited by Mind, 21 October 2015 - 10:44 PM.

[norepinephrine]

Nupi - I read over the (stump of an) article on Wikipedia for COMT inhibitors. Didn't really see anything 'nasty' outside of the side effects of pharmacautical COMT inhibitors; sorry for the confusion, but I was referring to non-pharmaceuticals in my previous post, e.g., EGCG and quercetin.

[nupi]

Oh, yeah those are ok (I take EGCG daily, anyhow, and have some small amount of Quercetin in my Multi)

[Major Legend]

Nupi - I read over the (stump of an) article on Wikipedia for COMT inhibitors. Didn't really see anything 'nasty' outside of the side effects of pharmacautical COMT inhibitors; sorry for the confusion, but I was referring to non-pharmaceuticals in my previous post, e.g., EGCG and quercetin.

COMT Inhibitors are dangerous when mixed with other things.

[nupi]

Fired my shrink today. Charging 200+/hour to my health insurance to tell me that I need to set goals and maybe consider a relationship while refusing to give me a MPH script is beyond anything I might consider even remotely acceptable.

[Raptor87]

Fired my shrink today. Charging 200+/hour to my health insurance to tell me that I need to set goals and maybe consider a relationship while refusing to give me a MPH script is beyond anything I might consider even remotely acceptable.

Have you ever tried mph? You know, it really messes with my social abilites! Consider that I already have social difficulties, so it becoming worse is really amazing.

Are you sure mph can help you?

[nupi]

Once, 10mg of it, years ago (my ex GF had a legitimate prescription for it). Do not really remember whether it did much at all.

In any case, the medication is safe enough that I should be allowed to simply try and see if it helps (especially since I do have a lot of what could be subsumed under ADHD-PI). Instead I got some bullshit about medication only being able to bring me back to my own baseline (yeah right, dopaminergics only push you back to baseline, that's precisely why they are being recreationally, I am sure). I can sort of understand why I am not allowed to try Selegiline, especially while on an SSRI, I have very little acceptance for not being able to try a legitimate medication. If I am being benevolent, the reason is because some idiots abuse it, if I am being less benevolent it is because it might actually get the job done and kill the shrinks revenue stream. As we know, there is no money to be made in curing patients.

Having said that, it can't be too hard to get some Ritalin through other channels. And if I have to coerce my ex into giving me a couple of capsules.

Edited by nupi, 12 January 2013 - 10:53 AM.

[Raptor87]

Once, 10mg of it, years ago (my ex GF had a legitimate prescription for it). Do not really remember whether it did much at all.

In any case, the medication is safe enough that I should be allowed to simply try and see if it helps (especially since I do have a lot of what could be subsumed under ADHD-PI). Instead I got some bullshit about medication only being able to bring me back to my own baseline (yeah right, dopaminergics only push you back to baseline, that's precisely why they are being recreationally, I am sure). I can sort of understand why I am not allowed to try Selegiline, especially while on an SSRI, I have very little acceptance for not being able to try a legitimate medication. If I am being benevolent, the reason is because some idiots abuse it, if I am being less benevolent it is because it might actually get the job done and kill the shrinks revenue stream. As we know, there is no money to be made in curing patients.

Having said that, it can't be too hard to get some Ritalin through other channels. And if I have to coerce my ex into giving me a couple of capsules.

Dude! If you don't have a prescription then I would advice you to get that idea out of your head. Do you think a few pills from YOUR X will help you? You need a better solution. Exactly what did your shrink say about goalsetting and relationships? I mean, doesn't he know that you have issues with this?

And if you are going to pop pills, then I don't believe that mph will help you. Mph messes with my verbal fluency, I have a tough time putting sentences together and the only thing it helps me with is forgetting the outside world. Sure it relieved some of my social anxiety, but when on them I just tend to drift off to my own place and focus on other things. Sure it feels like being on a damn vacation. But I become severely unsocial. Also I tend to sleep a lot when on them which is messy having hypersomnia and all.

If you seriously don't see any other solution then I would recommend other dopaminergics, preferably "L-dopa" kind of supplements.

[nupi]

Yeah, calling my ex would not be my favorite approach (which is presumably why I never did it in the first place). If I had MPH on hand, the fact that some doc (who on top of it all got the pharmacology of Prozac wrong) thinks I do not need dopaminergics most certainly would not deter me the least.

As for his points, who cares what exactly he had in mind - those session were useless (even if mildly entertaining) from the begin and that was just the straw that broke the camel's back. If he, by now, did not figure out that I am not his average patient then frankly, he will never do so (or as my boss put it a couple of weeks ago: "I believe you are resistant to therapy, anyhow").

Edited by nupi, 12 January 2013 - 12:35 PM.

[Raptor87]

Look I am not going in to a debate with you. But I will give you an honest reply. The things your therapist points out to you, goalsetting etc is important. A therapist that hands out drugs on demand is a bad therapist. You are completely disregarding everything else and assuming that mph will fix your issues as some kind of miracle drug, while not even listening to your therapist. You don't even know how mph will affect you. To me, it sounds that your boss is right, you are refusing therapy somehow. I do keep in concern that mph is dopaminergic which affects sociability. BUT! The action and it's function of this stimulant differs a lot from a regular dopaminergic drug. It can totally mess you up. I am not saying go back to your therapist. It's important to find a good person that you can trust and be honest and open with. But if you really need therapy then id suggest that you do get it and that you listen what the therapist has to say. Sitting there while thinking about the next pill wont help you and will actually keep you from your progress because you are focusing on shit. There are no miracle drugs. Pills and medications are for him to decide. Don't be a stubborn knowitall, it will only keep you as a rigid person who really doesn't want to change.

Edited by Brainfogged, 12 January 2013 - 04:35 PM.

[nupi]

Quite frankly, I consider the statement that I need to set goals for myself and to think about a relationship to be an insult to my intelligence (anyone's really). Whether I am receptive to therapy or not is an altogether different question because clearly, telling me to set goals is not therapy. That's at best common sense (and possibly wrong common sense, at that). It might be therapeutic if it was followed by some ideas or a howto and discussion of what steps would be required to do so but alas, it was not.

Furthermore, I am not even sure MPH would do much of anything to help, but on the off chance that it would, I should be allowed to try. Not allowing me clearly indicates that the psychiatrist lacks trust IN ME. Furthermore, pills and medication are for ME to decide, for two reasons
* The placebo effect is at least half the battle - if I believed sugar pills would help, they would more than likely actually do
* I have to live with the side effects
Shrinks should facilitate treatment and prevent patients from doing dangerous stuff, not antagonize ideas with a simple "that won't work". Provide me with a pharmacological reason why it won't, at the very least.

And now I will stop ranting.

[Major Legend]

Quite frankly, I consider the statement that I need to set goals for myself and to think about a relationship to be an insult to my intelligence (anyone's really). Whether I am receptive to therapy or not is an altogether different question because clearly, telling me to set goals is not therapy. That's at best common sense (and possibly wrong common sense, at that). It might be therapeutic if it was followed by some ideas or a howto and discussion of what steps would be required to do so but alas, it was not.

Furthermore, I am not even sure MPH would do much of anything to help, but on the off chance that it would, I should be allowed to try. Not allowing me clearly indicates that the psychiatrist lacks trust IN ME. Furthermore, pills and medication are for ME to decide, for two reasons
* The placebo effect is at least half the battle - if I believed sugar pills would help, they would more than likely actually do
* I have to live with the side effects
Shrinks should facilitate treatment and prevent patients from doing dangerous stuff, not antagonize ideas with a simple "that won't work". Provide me with a pharmacological reason why it won't, at the very least.

And now I will stop ranting.

Think you are getting desperate here Nupi.

Its unlikey MPH will help you socially, from experience it only helps with studying (turns you very inwards) and its a crappy drug with an effective time of a few hours and half a day crash, if you really want a stimulant solution, why not go with amphetamine? if you can't get that - CRAZE from driven sports is a good alternative (if you want a amphetamine like effect), we also have AMP, Dexeprine a lot of the body builder stims are half decent, and i'm sure way better than MPH.

[nupi]

Amphetamines and their derivatives are not truly on the market in Switzerland (you can get them on special prescription but it's a huge hassle I am told). So MPH is the most obvious dopaminergic that I could use...

I have not looked into Craze in detail but will do so...

Edited by nupi, 17 January 2013 - 08:36 AM.

[norepinephrine]

Agreed with Major Taylor. Adderall, on anything other than a strictly acute basis, puts me in an altogether serious mindframe where all I want to do is work and more work.

If I were to take it once a week, at most (to control tolerance) - then yes, socializing gets an brief enhancement, but even that's making a stretch. If anything, I just end up talking way too much and not caring because of the fleeting euphoric effects.

Any substance you take may lay a groundwork for action, but ultimately your success in relationships still has to flow out of right attitude and right actions.

[machete234]

If I were to take it once a week, at most (to control tolerance) - then yes, socializing gets an brief enhancement, but even that's making a stretch. If anything, I just end up talking way too much and not caring because of the fleeting euphoric effects.

Well saying a lot and saying some stupid things is better than saying not much at all but my evening definately had some facepalm moments.
My main concern was really my health because my hangover was bad.

Sure this cant change who you are and if you overdo it it will maybe get worse.
It might work for some people better than for others and if you are on an anti depressant I dont know if its wise to throw a stimulant in there.

Edited by machete234, 17 January 2013 - 10:17 AM.

[nupi]

Then let's try another question: rather than boosting confidence what compounds would be disinhibiting (alcohol does not do much, if anything, for me in that regard)?

Ultimately, I know it will not improve relationships, but maybe it will get me to the point where I approach someone - which is really the first step of getting to a relationship.

Edited by nupi, 17 January 2013 - 11:09 AM.

[norepinephrine]

Seriously, go read Models by Mark Manson already. I found it in PDF form for free from a quick Google search.

[nupi]

I will read it - I however doubt that more reading will help much, if at all.

[Major Legend]

Dis-inhibiting compounds?

Opiates, Xanax, Phenibut, they are mostly downers, and alcohol is one of the best ones because its easy to obtain, opiates feel more cleaner (and makes you more open to strangers) but stay away if you have an addictive personality.

but honestly? unless you smoke Meth or take MDMA (both of which I highly dis encourage anyone to do so due to neurotoxicity), you will not be able to obtain the kind of disinhibition seen in naturally really gregarious/socially people, infact its this kind of disinhibition that draws people to these drugs in the first place.

And I can tell you for a fact that if you are shy socially inhibited, or socially awkward, your level of sociability even under the influence of these powerful drugs will only bring you to a normal or just below average of an very outgoing person.

I'm still testing various methods and theories at the moment, whilst I have had much success in improving myself in terms of social and confidence, i've yet located an elegant solution to disinhibition. I think most people are inhibited, in broad terms of disinhibition in terms of doing what you want (being comfortable with self expression) thats easy to achieve using a combination of chemical and psychological conditioning, however if you mean disinhibition in terms of really selling yourself/products and really just "going for it" when it comes to people, obtaining this "aggressive" personality doesn't seem to be easy.

And yes you heard that right, what you are looking for is not broadly disinhibition, its also positive aggression, shy and nice people lack aggression, they don't upsell themselves.

So its self worth, self confidence, and self esteem - in terms of temperament what are we looking for? At the moment anyways, though not conclusively it seems being high energy, sharp and focused is a good prerequisite to and disinhibited is a good prequisite to aggressive (note unhealthy and old people are usually less aggressive, and people who are good with sports are usually successful in life), in a way we can discern that - all social valuations are based on health in some way (e.g. being able to filter out the noise and dominate).

also contrary to belief confident individuals don't fight the environment, they just don't really let the environment affect them (and you can train the brain to see like this),

what I have been unsuccessful with is that some people just seem better at being manipulative socially, or playing the political game, it seems that people who are similar get in easier socially, this means if you are weird or different you will generally have problems integrating or playing their game (note how most of society is stupid and relies on this social system to be fed), so I think if you are different, you really really need to be confident and not let it get to you (at least thats what I think for now)

There is one thing though, and I agree with it - there is no substitute for courage, no matter what you do what drugs you take, or how you think it may help or aid your performance, even alter the outcome but however you go about it, you will need to bite your teeth and gamble, you will need to roll that dice and let the chips fall, people won't come and give you stuff on a silver platter (they do it more if you are good looking and white ). You have to go up to people and dazzle them with your passions, and think of it like this - what difference does it make if they come to you, in the end is same, the lack of courage is just the fear of losing self esteem, you fear that you will feel worse afterwards, or you have experiences of failure before, so you are protecting your self esteem.

People like us have to let go, we have to anchor self esteem to something harder, something more untouchable, for people who are common they can anchor their self esteem to everyone else who are similiar, you fear that your darkest fears are true, but what if I told you that they probably are true? What if people do find you weird, or dislike you, or they genuinely want to see you fail - the truth is its all probably true, people have good sides, but they also have a very evil side, and if we allow our self esteem to be affected by it, then we will never be happy, we will never be successful and we will never be aggressive.

Just though I'd let those thought come out - it helps me sort it out in my head too.

[nupi]

I do not think GABAergics will do much to disinhibit - they reduce (or in the case of benzos, knock out) anxiety but that just leaves me in a state where I am quite happy to do nothing at all. MDMA is not an option given that I won't drop the SSRI and Meth, well, that sounds like an already bad move.

But I think you have a couple of very valid point, it is not just disinhibition, it is also aggression. When I transitioned from Cymbalta to Prozac there was a couple of days where I actually got that aggression (much to dismay of someone who royally pissed me off - let's just say she got her ass handed to her and a complaint to her boss on top of it). I believe I may have dipped into hypomania for a short while but it may also have been the initial DA surge from the Fluoxetine. So I am still wondering if a good dopaminergic could do something for me. Similar story for Testosterone, it both fuels aggression to some degree AND gives confidence.

I am not all that good at politics either but frankly, it seems some people enjoy it whereas I don't. I would be happy to go for the things I want, stick up for myself and otherwise ignore the politics.

You have to go up to people and dazzle them with your passions,

That is another thing - I am mostly devoid of passions. And have been that way for a long time. It used to be that anxiety drove me to achieve, but that is no longer the case. Makes for a more comfortable but ultimately somewhat ineffective life.

[machete234]

Seriously, go read Models by Mark Manson already. I found it in PDF form for free from a quick Google search.

I found the PDF and I find the way he starts the book really good: how the PUA things didnt work back in 2005
I could relate to that.