383 replies to this topic

[kevinseven11]

You must use bacopa for more than just once but it synergizes. Perhaps it needs additional others.

[Dissolvedissolve]

You must use bacopa for more than just once but it synergizes. Perhaps it needs additional others.

Synergizes with what? I was using it for memory effects. I used it consistently for around 3 months before giving up on it. Although memory effects if they do exist would be slow to kick in and subtle, I certainly didn't notice any. I would strongly recommend against bacopa for any people with anhedonia / lethargy / amotivation / low sex drive, as it worsened all of those for me.

[medievil]

" I don't think you'll find medievil'esque stacks on the list."

I can provide some long term anecdotes soon, you are purely skeptical based on my regimes wich have nothing to do with individual suggestion for a particular issue.

I must report the exact opposite with regard to Bacopa. It made my anhedonia much worse.

I often see completely useless suggestions for issues like this, my suggestions are based on anecdotes showing succes, as an example amisulpiride and zyprexa where included, and in contrast to what funk says they also have a ton of long term anecdotes behind them.

Amisulpride is a good suggestion; but I hope you're not going to recommend some illegal research chemical like MDPV, or 'psychosis powder' as it is otherwise known.

Personally the most effective pharmaceutical I have trialled for both subtypes of anhedonia has been Pramipexole. I know it's not very popular because of the adaptation phase, and it's complete lack of recreational value, but it is the closest thing to a cure I've ever experienced. It's also had some negative exposure relatively recently because a few loud idiots took it in combination with memantine. Which subsequently resulted in dysfunctional adaptation and an overall unpleasant experience. Of course they typically fail to mention this combination when posting about how pramipexole is the product of the devil.

I will probably elaborate on my extensive experience with the substance in a dedicated thread. I'm about to start taking it again, after a 9 month hiatus for various reasons, so I may even post a log. I just wanted to make people aware of it as a potential option. At least it has some clinical evidence for it's effectiveness in this regard.

Those are options for people resistant to other things, i warned about MDPV too, all i do is list all options, if someone only gets relief with some stim rc then he should adress the benefit/risk ratio and then decide.

[kevinseven11]

Hmm perhaps Bacopa with a gaba antagonist? Those studies showed that they only corrected 5ht2c receptors if they were high or low.

[FunkOdyssey]

Personally the most effective pharmaceutical I have trialled for both subtypes of anhedonia has been Pramipexole. I know it's not very popular because of the adaptation phase, and it's complete lack of recreational value, but it is the closest thing to a cure I've ever experienced. It's also had some negative exposure relatively recently because a few loud idiots took it in combination with memantine. Which subsequently resulted in dysfunctional adaptation and an overall unpleasant experience. Of course they typically fail to mention this combination when posting about how pramipexole is the product of the devil.

I will probably elaborate on my extensive experience with the substance in a dedicated thread. I'm about to start taking it again, after a 9 month hiatus for various reasons, so I may even post a log. I just wanted to make people aware of it as a potential option. At least it has some clinical evidence for it's effectiveness in this regard.

I agree that some of the prominent internet trials of pramipexole were bastardized by other substances and look forward to following your log. I might experiment with it again sometime in the future. I tried it for a period of a week before and was way too gung-ho about rapidly raising the dose, resulting in sides that made me quit.

[Galaxyshock]

How do you people respond to alcohol? Do you find it blunting, sedating, stimulating, pro-social?

[Dissolvedissolve]

How do you people respond to alcohol? Do you find it blunting, sedating, stimulating, pro-social?

I don't have anxiety issues, so I don't find alcohol to be remotely therapeutic. I would never drink by myself, as I find alcohol to be enjoyable solely as a means of enhancing social situations.

I do find it to be paradoxically both stimulatory and sedating, in a strange way focus-enhancing, and pro-social. I think alcohol has a tendency to enhance consummatory pleasure by helping one focus on what's at hand, but I don't think it reduces anticipatory issues, at least for me. So it's pleasant but not therapeutic.

Since alcohol is a GABA-A positive allosteric modulator, we'd expect some sort of pleasant anxiolysis, but no real benefit in terms of anticipatory anhedonia or the dopamine system. I do believe alcohol has some indirect effects on dopamine, which are part of the risk of addiction, but they're not dominant in terms of the phenomenology of alcohol consumption. I think most people respond positively to alcohol. I'd find it interesting if other people with anticipatory anhedonia do not respond well to alcohol.

[Adaptogen]

I dont know if i have anticipatory anhedonia, but alcohol doesn't do much for me. i have a lot of anxiety, and it takes a pretty large amount to have any real effect on me

[brainslugged]

Great post...do people really exist that dislike the consummatory factors? That is like a list of some of the best things in existance

... I was just wondering "what about comsumatory anhedonia?"

I don't think I have anhedonia on a clinical level, but my pleasure levels are definately skewed in favor of anticipatory. I could fantasize about things for hours and hours and feel really good. For example, when I am hungry, I find it more pleasureable to think about eating than to actually eat. Same as how planning is fun for most things, but actually doing them is not.

Not to say I never enjoy the consumary pleasures, but it is not an everyday occurance.

2. The sound of crackling wood in the fireplace is very relaxing
-I don't really pay attention.
4. I love the sound of rain on the windows when I’m lying in my warm bed
-yes to this most of the time.
5. The smell of freshly cut grass is enjoyable to me
-More irritating than anything else. When there are strong smells like this, I find it difficult to breathe.
6. I enjoy taking a deep breath of fresh air when I walk outside
-I actually really don't like breathing, as silly as that sounds. It feels laborious when I think about it. I hate how you can breathe, but you can never quite get all the air into your lungs that you want.
8. A hot cup of coffee or tea on a cold morning is very satisfying to me
-Meh, I have never really found this to be the case. Under the right conditions, hot chocolate can be good like this.
9. I love it when people play with my hair
-Well, the one time this happened, I liked it a lot.
10. I really enjoy the feeling of a good yawn
-I don't really understand this. Yawns feel uncomfortable.
13. I appreciate the beauty of a fresh snowfall
-Yeah, I like nature.

Mostly, I just kinda have a bad feeling all the time, kinda like a pain or an ache. Either my muscles hurt(pretty much all the time) or my skin feels irritated or my stomach aches. It isn't really like pain-pain. It is not like I am going to double over from it or anything, it is just that unpleasant feeling that is always there. I think it kinda acts to deter most pleasure.

There is also a high rate of diminishing returns. Eating isn't too pleasant because the first bite is good, but the 2nd isn't great, and about half-way through the meal, I am pretty much not tasting anything, just feeling the texture. Eating foods side by side with a lot of contrast kinda helps with this, but not fully.

I am getting better with accomplishments since taking racetams. Accomplishments give me some satisfaction now. Sill, I don't get much, and that that I do get is mostly relief that I accomplished the task and avoided negatives of not accomplishing. Really, racetams mostly just "push me out" to the real world, but not in an extrovert way.

Really, the best I have found so far is aniractam. When I take it, sometimes I will just have profound moments of ease or something. All the pains and everything go away for a small bit and I am more able to enjoy things happening and everything seems more liquidated. This lead me to think maybe serotonin was the problem, but I have never had any good results with supplements affecting serotonin (have had some bad effects, twitching/sweating [5htp], aggression + sweating + exacerbation of the symptoms[inositol]) other than ani, so I am afraid of possible negative effects if I were to take SSRIs.

Hope I am not derailing the thread by talking about the wrong kind of anhedonia.

[Dissolvedissolve]

There's a thread about consummatory anhedonia called "The Anhedonia Thread." I made this one to branch off conversation of anticipatory anhedonia. It turns out a lot of people who think they have "anhedonia" actually have more issues with the anticipatory end of things. If you want to have an in-depth conversation about it, it's probably best to post there.

Anyway, my thoughts:
In your case, your discussion of lack of pleasure and low-level pain sounds like it may be based on opioid signalling. Endogenous opioids are largely responsible for consummatory pleasure. There also seems to be a glutamatergic component, but since you do enjoy some things, some of the time, your glutamate system is probably OK, and you look forward to things, meaning your dopamine signaling is adequate. Generally, something like low-dose naltrexone may be able to help in upregulating your opioid receptors and increasing consummatory pleasure.

[nupi]

I don't think I have anhedonia on a clinical level, but my pleasure levels are definately skewed in favor of anticipatory. I could fantasize about things for hours and hours and feel really good. For example, when I am hungry, I find it more pleasureable to think about eating than to actually eat. Same as how planning is fun for most things, but actually doing them is not.

Don't get me started about fantasizing about sex vs. actually having it (or same thing for even just making out...). Is it pain or is it anxiety (they can be quite similar)? What happens to it when you take gabaergic substances (benzo would be gold standard here but even something like Taurine might be an interesting test)?

[magniloquentc0unt]

i tried bacopa for three weeks (from pureencapsulations)
it didnt do shit. their energy xtra formula was "okay" but nothing compared to some good rhodiola or ginseng.
the energy xtra had eleuthero, schisandra, ashwaghanda, cordyceps, and like 50mg rhodiola per capsule wich quite frankly just wouldnt cut it.
bottom line, the adaptogens help slightly but dont fix anything in a major way, thats my experience:
ginseng to help you wake up in the morning
rhodiola for brightening the mood slightly

[kevinseven11]

Damn hmm okay so bacopa is out then. Sorry guys it was a false hypothesis.
Is it possible that gaba upregulation would benefit you guys?
Melanotan II looks promising.
Even Saffron extract may be good too.

Edited by kevinseven11, 16 December 2012 - 04:34 PM.

[nupi]

bottom line, the adaptogens help slightly but dont fix anything in a major way, thats my experience:

I agree. Even high dose Rhodiola or Bacopa can't hold a candle to proper anti depressants... (though I still wonder what would happen from stacking Prozac with Rhodiola, probably going to try over Xmas break)

[magniloquentc0unt]

Damn hmm okay so bacopa is out then. Sorry guys it was a false hypothesis.
Is it possible that gaba upregulation would benefit you guys?
Melanotan II looks promising.
Even Saffron extract may be good too.

fun guess, exactly yesterday a guy whos putting a lot of effort into curing anhedonia reported no results from injecting himself bremelanotide, which from what i understand on wikipedia is sort of a newer melanotan. i believe this is some damaging stuff

http://www.depressio...s/page__st__200

[Galaxyshock]

though I still wonder what would happen from stacking Prozac with Rhodiola, probably going to try over Xmas break)

Combining SSRI and MAOI... don't do it. You're just risking serotonin syndrome altough the MAO-inhibiting effect of Rhodiola seems to be reversible and different than pharmaceuticals.

[nupi]

Rhodiola is a supposedly a reversible selective MAOI-B (many things out there are, BTW, even cigarettes contain MAOI). I need to investigate it some more, but if it is really a MAOI-B, low doses should be safe.

[Galaxyshock]

Rhodiola is a supposedly a reversible selective MAOI-B (many things out there are, BTW, even cigarettes contain MAOI). I need to investigate it some more, but if it is really a MAOI-B, low doses should be safe.

It seems to inhibit both MAO A and B:

http://www.sciencedi...37887410900021X

For selective MAOB-inhibtion there are Hordenine, Cat's Claw and Fo-Ti that I know of.

[nupi]

Data on it seems to be quite contradictory. http://www.mindandmu...afe-take-w-ssri is a mess to read, but contains a number of case examples of people who were fine combining the two and not a single one who had any bad interactions... I might look into other herbal MAOB-I, good point.

[Galaxyshock]

True, Rhodiola as an adaptogen has complicated, broad range of therapeutic effects and measuring them scientifically is difficult. I've also read it being combined with SSRI without problems so it may be fine but I would be cautious.

I think adaptogens have thepeutic potential against anhedonia especially if it was induced by very high-stress period in the person's life (quite common?). In my experience Eleuthero ("Siberian Ginseng") has quite rapid antidepressive effect and some benefit for anhedonia, but tolerance tends to build up rather quickly (which in my case seems to happen with every substance). Panax Ginseng requires several weeks to do its' magic but may be the most potent of them all. Ginseng seems to affect the anhedonia-related pathways including glutamate, dopamine and opioid receptors.

Inhibition by ginseng total saponin of the development of morphine reverse tolerance and dopamine receptor supersensitivity in mice

http://www.sciencedi...30636239400267Q


http://www.sciencedi...091305794002247

http://onlinelibrary...enticated=false

Ginseng Total Saponin Inhibits the Dopaminergic Depletions Induced by Methamphetamine

https://www.thieme-c...5/s-2006-957610

[BLimitless]

[trimmed]

Mostly, I just kinda have a bad feeling all the time, kinda like a pain or an ache. Either my muscles hurt(pretty much all the time) or my skin feels irritated or my stomach aches. It isn't really like pain-pain. It is not like I am going to double over from it or anything, it is just that unpleasant feeling that is always there. I think it kinda acts to deter most pleasure.

There is also a high rate of diminishing returns. Eating isn't too pleasant because the first bite is good, but the 2nd isn't great, and about half-way through the meal, I am pretty much not tasting anything, just feeling the texture. Eating foods side by side with a lot of contrast kinda helps with this, but not fully.

I am getting better with accomplishments since taking racetams. Accomplishments give me some satisfaction now. Sill, I don't get much, and that that I do get is mostly relief that I accomplished the task and avoided negatives of not accomplishing. Really, racetams mostly just "push me out" to the real world, but not in an extrovert way.

I have had similar issues in the past and I solved them by increasing my magnesium intake. Get on a good multivitamin (I use Orange Triad) and buy some magnesium. And try drinking green smoothies every day, that should remove that chronic dysphoria.

[Dissolvedissolve]

As far as selective MAO-B inhibition, selegiline at 5-10 mg/day should be ideal.

I'll have to research panax ginseng.

I have a shipment of rhodiola rosea coming, but I'm not very optimistic about it.

[Adaptogen]

do you have any experience with rasagiline?

[nupi]

Interesting - can anyone recommend a Panax Ginseng product?

[magniloquentc0unt]

ive had good results with gincosan, its manufactured in switzerland. it also contains gingko biloba, which appears to inhibit NE reuptake in mice at some point, so i dont know if you're into that.
else, theres the "pure" giseng product, but a pharmacist told me its "an expensive sugarpill" and that the extraction/quantity is not worth of reccomendation.
http://www.ginsana-s...urProducts.html

otherwise id reccoment the capsules from "pine bran", its available at the reformhaus müller

Edited by magniloquentcunt, 17 December 2012 - 01:48 PM.

[nupi]

I would rather not target NE (I have a distinct suspicion that it makes me more obsessive and is anxiogenic, not a price I want to pay for the energy it delivers), however, truth to be told I do not think NE properties of Gingko are, if at all, very weak. I certainly never noticed a thing from it, even at high doses.

Let's see if I buy it locally or just get something from iHerb - the latter is most certainly cheaper, just hell a lot slower

Edited by nupi, 17 December 2012 - 02:23 PM.

[kevinseven11]

A study has showed ginger and silk tree have affinity for the anhedonia receptor(s). Ginger unfortantly has been shown to be an agonist but silk tree hasn't been tested. Silk tree is even used as an anti depressant just as agomelatine. So silk may be an antagonist. Anybody tried this herb out yet?
http://www.herb-phar...products_id=335
http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/20804838/

[magniloquentc0unt]

Btw on a notice i decided ill finish off my bacopa pills and so ive started taking it again, 1200mg 20% bacosides, yesterday and today )before i took 600mg a day)
I can say i feel i can jump from one tought to the next slightlY quicker and a weird, increased sense of awareness to phisical stimuli on my bodY. Im also taking ginseng on a daily basis in pill format but today i tried a liquid extract, so keep that incount.

[Adaptogen]

A study has showed ginger and silk tree have affinity for the anhedonia receptor(s). Ginger unfortantly has been shown to be an agonist but silk tree hasn't been tested. Silk tree is even used as an anti depressant just as agomelatine. So silk may be an antagonist. Anybody tried this herb out yet?
http://www.herb-phar...products_id=335
http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/20804838/

ginger is bad for anhedonia?

[kevinseven11]

It appears to be bad for sexual types.