11 replies to this topic

[JBForrester]

An interesting article on the importance of subcutaneous fat (mind you, I am a female speaking here). Here's an excerpt:

"In the study, 12 overweight or obese and metabolically unhealthy subjects were given a drug (Pioglitazone) for a duration of 12 weeks. While the exact actions of this drug, and more generally the thiazolidinediones (TZD) class of drugs are beyond the scope of this post, it is important to understand that these drugs seem to upregulate the production of healthy new fat cells (a process known as adipogenesis) – that is they make you fatter. By doing so, these drugs increase the storage capacity of your fat tissue – something that is limited in unhealthy obese individuals.

And that is precisely what happened in these subjects following 3 months of Pioglitizone administration. First, they gained about 2kg of body weight. Their amount of subcutaneous fat in the belly went up by about 10% and that in their butt/thigh by about 24%. Interestingly, their amount of dangerous visceral fat decreased by about 11%. (Some suggest that visceral fat really begins to accumulate and potentially lead to metabolic problems when benign subcutaneous fat runs out of storage space. Thus, not surprising to see an increase in storage capacity of subcutaneous fat and yet a reduction in visceral accumulation)."

Take a look and let's hear what you think:

http://scienceblogs....d-improve-meta/

[niner]

Wow, pretty interesting. We've long known that visceral fat was bad, but this is saying that subcutaneous fat is actively good. At least in people who are already metabolically unhealthy. I'd really rather see people eat right and exercise and just not get fat in the first place, but ya learn something new every day...

[JBForrester]

Wow, pretty interesting. We've long known that visceral fat was bad, but this is saying that subcutaneous fat is actively good. At least in people who are already metabolically unhealthy. I'd really rather see people eat right and exercise and just not get fat in the first place, but ya learn something new every day...

Yes, definitely eating right and exercising is critical. However, it could give insight to why liposuction and other forms of mechanically removing fat is harmful, especially to women, and why certain diets work and do not work for certain body types. Men, who generally have less subcutaneous fat also seem to do better on the Paleo Diet with interval training, whereas women who are more pear shaped seem to do better on high carb diets combined with aerobic activity such as long-distance running.

Edited by JBForrester, 07 January 2013 - 09:39 PM.

[James Cain]

This is actually something we research in our lab. The simplest explanation is that fat cells serve as a depot for excess energy. If you consume excess calories they will be stored in fat cells, and the fat cells grow larger. If fat cells grow too large they become dysfunctional and release inflammatory signals to reduce insulin sensitivity, thus restricting further nutrient uptake and growth. Pushed too far, over-sized fat cells can become dysfunctional, perhaps necrotic, and inflammatory to a degree that they affect other tissues, leading to many of the co-pathologies seen with obesity.

TZD drugs, and similar treatments, basically tell fat cells to replicate, so instead of having one over-sized dysfunctional fat cell you could have two smaller healthier fat cells. Of course you still have the same amount of actual fat, but each cell is more metabolically healthy and so you avoid a lot of the inflammation and pathology associated with obesity. The ability to do this naturally, and the initial number of fat cells, seems to be somewhat different for each person, which is why there are those who are morbidly obese but seemingly healthy while at the same time there are more slender people with insulin resistance and such.

To some extent this reasearch focuses on how to create a benign obesity phenotype, since preventing or reversing obesity seems to be less likely at the moment. TZDs also have some pretty bad side effects if used too long, so (as with most drugs) they're good as a short term treatment to improve metabolic health to make initial fat loss easier, after which the individual can continue without drugs. But most people start the drugs, feel better, and think they can just keep on indefinitely with the drugs.

[Michael]

TZDs do a lot more than increase adipogenesis, however, including improving beta-cell function (in rodents -- results are not yet clear in humans, and probably won't be aabsent autopsy studies). Some of these effects may be secondary to, or mediated thru', the increased storage of energy in SC fat, but most are not likely to be thus.

[JBForrester]

This is actually something we research in our lab. The simplest explanation is that fat cells serve as a depot for excess energy. If you consume excess calories they will be stored in fat cells, and the fat cells grow larger. If fat cells grow too large they become dysfunctional and release inflammatory signals to reduce insulin sensitivity, thus restricting further nutrient uptake and growth. Pushed too far, over-sized fat cells can become dysfunctional, perhaps necrotic, and inflammatory to a degree that they affect other tissues, leading to many of the co-pathologies seen with obesity.

TZD drugs, and similar treatments, basically tell fat cells to replicate, so instead of having one over-sized dysfunctional fat cell you could have two smaller healthier fat cells. Of course you still have the same amount of actual fat, but each cell is more metabolically healthy and so you avoid a lot of the inflammation and pathology associated with obesity. The ability to do this naturally, and the initial number of fat cells, seems to be somewhat different for each person, which is why there are those who are morbidly obese but seemingly healthy while at the same time there are more slender people with insulin resistance and such.

To some extent this reasearch focuses on how to create a benign obesity phenotype, since preventing or reversing obesity seems to be less likely at the moment. TZDs also have some pretty bad side effects if used too long, so (as with most drugs) they're good as a short term treatment to improve metabolic health to make initial fat loss easier, after which the individual can continue without drugs. But most people start the drugs, feel better, and think they can just keep on indefinitely with the drugs.

Really interesting. Thanks for posting that, James.

Does the weight gain from TZD cause a certain kind of subcutaneous fat redistribution to the body (i.e. upper body fat shifts to lower body)? From what I understand, apple, box, or V shapes, especially in women, are due to a lack of fat cells within the body, physiologically making them more prone to diabetes, etc. Supposedly the abdomen fat cells are the only subcutaneous fat cells that cannot multiply, so once there are enough fat cells within the body, there will be less inflammation excreted from over-filled fat cells within the abdomen. Therefore, does the subcutaneous weight gain from TZD change the body shape of subjects? It'd be interesting to know as I wonder if it could potentially prevent any future diabetic or insulin resistant diseases in those who are naturally born with apple, square, or v-shaped bodies, as well as hormonal imbalance within women of such a shape, or those whose health has declined as a result of the mechanical removal of fat. Hope I'm being clear.

Edited by JBForrester, 10 January 2013 - 02:37 AM.

[YOLF]

So what supplements can one take for this? I wouldn't mind having more subcut fat and less visceral. I've read really good things about it actually. I'm trying to put on muscle too though to burn more of the visceral without doing anything.

[Mind]

So what supplements can one take for this? I wouldn't mind having more subcut fat and less visceral. I've read really good things about it actually. I'm trying to put on muscle too though to burn more of the visceral without doing anything.

Just keep exercising and you will probably do better than someone on a supplement.

[JBForrester]

So what supplements can one take for this? I wouldn't mind having more subcut fat and less visceral. I've read really good things about it actually. I'm trying to put on muscle too though to burn more of the visceral without doing anything.

There's no supplement - TZD is something your doctor has to prescribe to you. As of now, it's for medicinal purposes from what I understand.

[chung_pao]

Why would anyone take a drug that makes them fatter?
That's one sure way to mess up your own biology.

[JBForrester]

Why would anyone take a drug that makes them fatter?
That's one sure way to mess up your own biology.

By biology I'm assuming you mean physiology. Of course, there would be some type of homeostasis process that would happen. Eventually the body would adapt to it though. For diabetes patients, the decrease in visceral fat, thus the decrease in cortisol, would be beneficial.

[alecnevsky]

http://lowfatcooking...s/a/bodyfat.htm
"

Even if you lack the tell-tale belly fat, you still might not be as healthy as you think. Looking slim is one thing, being healthy is quite another. Research in the U.K. suggests that being a normal weight or even thin doesn’t mean all is well. U.K. scientists have created

fat maps

of nearly 800 people using MRI (magnetic resonance imaging) machines. Close to half the women and more than half the men with normal BMI scores had excessive levels of internal fat deposited around the heart and liver, and streaked through under-used muscles—much like a well-marbled steak.

Doctors surmise that diet alone is not enough to protect our bodies from disease. While dieting may help us look better in a bathing suit, it could also cause our bodies to change the way it stores fat. Those who turned out to have excess fat on the inside tended to be sedentary and generally ate poorly—though not always in excess."

So I can be 5% body fat and still be obese? Lol. How would you measure this? Can we estimate visceral fat by crude cholesterol numbers?