dirdir207: Thanks for your advice. However, I'd like to address a few things:
I would high HIGHLY recommend that you do not continue your current stack including piracetam MSG and calcium without co-administration of magnesium.
As mentioned above, I'm not taking MSG; I'm taking glutamic acid. The same theoretical risks concerning glutamate excitotoxicity still apply (although these are quite small, considering the large doses tolerated by humans without issues, which I discussed in the thread I created concerning glutamate research), but anything you mentioned relating to sodium content is irrelevant because glutamic acid doesn't contain sodium. Also (as mentioned above), I'm not taking piracetam; I'm taking oxiracetam (although your concerns related to calcium influx are still just as relevant in this regard).
Several things are very likely to occur with this combination. Firstly unbound glutamate very quickly excites glutamate receptors all over the body, including the gut brain and heart. While this is normally fine and can be quite pleasurable with the addition of calcium you are doing several things. One you massively increase the amount of calcium being released by the NMDA calcium ion channel, which is even further worsened by the fact that you are also supplementing piracetam which increases both glutamate release as well as the opening of calcium ion channels. I would speculate that this combination has the potential to be highly neurotoxic, however there haven't been any studies combining all three of these supplements.
Calcium isn't so much 'released' by NMDA calcium ion channels as "allowed to pass through" from the synaptic cleft to inside the presynaptic terminal. Anyway, that's nit-picking, I suppose
Oxiracetam increases glutamate release, and decreases glutamate levels, implying depletion. As a self-experiment (which is, after all, what we're all doing with nootropics in general), I am supplementing glutamic acid, which is converted by the body to glutamate, and have been doing so for over two weeks now with positive results and no perceptible ill effects. Glutamate in turn increases calcium influx into neurons. This is the mechanism by which neurons become "excited", which is (as you said) generally a good thing, so long as it is not excessive. Given a diet low in calcium, this may not be facilitated properly, and thus calcium supplementation may be called for. I haven't been able to identify any studies concerning calcium being depleted by the racetams, but that alone doesn't rule the possibility out. In any case, given that I consume very little in the way of calcium anyway, and am most likely correcting a mild deficiency regardless of racetam supplementation, this should not be an issue. I've only begun doing so yesterday, and although I haven't noticed any ill effects, I came down with a cold the night before last, and am quite fatigued and sick, so my first few days results will be flawed (still, I was eager to begin the test, so I'll ride out the cold and continue providing updates afterward). To put to rest any grave concerns you may have in relation to calcium supplementation alongside oxiracetam and glutamic acid (and a choline source), I'm only taking 250mg of calcium, three times daily. This is less than the average recommended calcium intake, and since I get very little calcium from dietary sources, there are likely many nootropic users exceeding my calcum intake just by drinking a few glasses of milk per day.
Also administration of calcium in the face of an existing magnesium deficiency, which a great number of people have, causes both calcium and magnesium to be driven into the bones, resulting in a sudden magnesium depletion crisis.
I've never even heard of this. Could you provide a link to any relevant studies? In any case, if I suddenly suffer the effects of magnesium deficiency, I'll go ahead and take some magnesium. I don't think this will be a likely outcome, given that my calcium intake isn't that high, as I noted above.
The combination of a diet high in MSG and calcium supplementation has greatly increased the incident of sudden cardiac death.
Can you provide a link to any relevant studies?
In addition, as there are glutamate receptors in the gut, sufficient quantities of MSG can very well lead to explosive diarrhea, which will both dehydrate you and cause even more magnesium loss and essentially no blockage of calcium ion channels. MSG will also be adding large amounts of sodium to your diet which will decrease potassium levels. Coupled with diarrhea you will lose even more potassium as well as very rapidly become dehydrated. MSG can greatly increase heart rate, as can dehydration, magnesium deficiency and potassium deficiency.
ALSO MSG greatly increases insulin secretion which can very quickly put you in a hypoglycemic state, which will also elevate your heart rate. The problem is even further exacerbated by piracetam which increases glucose metabolism in the brain, further lowing blood sugar levels.
After taking glutamic acid for over two weeks at 500mg three times daily (on an empty stomach, aside from my other supplements), I've suffered zero ill effects, and certainly haven't experienced any explosive diarrhea. As mentioned above, the sodium caution is irrelevant as I'm taking glutamic acid, not MSG. Although it's not related to this topic since I'm not taking it, I don't recall ever reading that MSG causes hypoglycemia, elevated heart rate, or dehydration, unless you consume it in amounts comparable to dangerous levels of plain old table salt. Certainly, if you took many grams of MSG, you could become dehydrated, just as you could become dehydrated if you took many grams of sodium chloride. Everything I've read concerning MSG points to the fact that risks concerning ingesting it are essentially the same risks as those for taking glutamic acid and sodium chloride together - take a huge amount, and it'll make you sick; otherwise, a moderate amount should be quite safe. Do keep in mind that over a billion Asians (most notably in Japan and China) have been regularly consuming several grams of MSG per day for decades, and there's no MSG-related illness epidemic in Japan or China.
This is not all just theoretical hearsay on the possible effects of this combination, this is from personal experience. I utilized this exact same stack, at isochroma levels, 5 grams of piracetam to about 2.5 grams of MSG every three hours and about a gram of supplemental calcium a day. Individually this should all be fine, the level of MSG is still well under what has been cited as neurotoxic in studies.
That's a considerable amount of MSG. I'm not particularly concerned with the sodium content you ingested so much as the glutamate content. Given a 16-hour waking day, taking 2.5g of MSG every three hours means 13.3g per day. That's 8.8 times the amount I'm taking. It's still well beneath neurotoxic levels by itself, but coupled with a megadose racetam (26.6g!) and 1g calcium supplementation, it may well be neurotoxic in conjunction. In any case, I highly doubt that much glutamate is called for, the majority of it probably being wasted.
However after about five or six days of this stack I started having horrific side effects. Intense explosive diarrhea, I actually shat myself in bed, had no idea it was coming. I had almost constant myoclonus, random tingling sensations all over my body, hyperthermia, a sensation while lying down that my whole body was being slid up and down. My heart rate got up to 150bpm whilst completely inactive and laying down, with a pulse in my stomach so intense I swore I was going to have or had already developed an abdominal aortic aneurysm that would burst any second. I experienced great pressure at random points in my skull and was intensely light headed and faint upon standing. Breathing was also somewhat difficult. Oh and I forgot to mention I had an essential tremor all over my body that would put Muhammad Ali to fucking shame.
If taking 13.3g of MSG with 26.6g of piracetam and 1g of calcium causes these effects, it's probably a good idea to decrease the dosage of one or more of these supplements. Still, I'm nowhere near these levels (aside from 750mg of calcium per day), and would never advocate them.
This all persisted for six or seven hours of confusion and disorientation before I realized what all was exactly going on, in which case I immediately consumed a gram of magnesium citrate, 10 milligrams of lithium orotate, 10 mg of manganese, 4 grams of lecithin, 2 tablespoons of peanut butter, a Hawaiian roll and a cup of 100 percent pure cranberry juice. After about thirty minutes all of my symptoms had disappeared, and iv'e never been more relieved in my life.
I can imagine your reasoning in taking magnesium citrate (to counter calcium), but why did you take lithium orotate, manganese, lecithin (for choline?), peanut butter, a Hawaiian roll, and a cup of cranberry juice? No disrespect, but I'd swear you were kidding if the rest of your post didn't seem fairly straight-forward.
So take it from me, take magnesium, eat regularly, make sure you're getting some potassium, and don't take quite as much MSG as myself. And of course, still please exercise caution.
Of course; I'm very cautious with nootropic supplementation. My brain is who I am, and everything I can be. I certainly don't want to damage it. However, the prospect of improving it it always very alluring - and has proven very rewarding thus far.
i was wondering if the interaction with piracetam and calcium could lead to osteoporosis, ( i'm recovering from a bad fracture to the humerus )... any ideas?
I doubt it, unless piracetam caused such a drop in extra-cerebral calcium that you were deficient elsewhere in your body. If so, calcium supplementation would probably resolve this.
i have osteoporosis symptom and lost one teeth while ago
so piracetam make calcium deficiency or calcium deficiency tend to have negative effect by not enough calcium to do the job
and
by withdraw from backup bone storage area ?
or focus on just calcium and glutamate is partial speculation by piracetam might increase uptake on every nutrients ?
i try to avoid calcium because i 'm prone to toxicity from glutamate but calcium deficiency also my problem ( and cause paradox in my concentration ).
if i not take milk a day my concentration really drop so much ,calcium (from milk ) really improve concentration and vision .
Theoretically, piracetam may keep more calcium tied up in neurotransmission (and possibly deplete calcium?), so calcium supplementation may be indicated. This is still theoretical and "experimental", though several people on these forums have sworn by the results. Still, as mentioned earlier, I'd like to see if any of those people are still taking calcium with their racetams, and if this supplementation has continued to provide noticeable benefits.
Edited by LBGSHI, 18 January 2013 - 06:29 PM.
- but I haven't seen anyone discuss the technical details. Given the evidence that at least part of the mechanism for the racetams' positive effects on cognition is related to their effects on calcium influx into the presynaptic terminal (all synaptic transmission relies on this activity), and after perusing the results of a few studies directly related to calcium and the racetams, it seems like this subjects begs at least some consideration.
