51 replies to this topic

[Absent]

The key word I would like to point out there is experience. The brain adapts to experience.

Yes, while it's growing. Adults can barely even learn new languages as most of the plasticity of the brain has been lost. I give it to you that if a child is given training at the age of four, many things are possible. But at 24 that plasticity is not there anymore as the brain has mostly been wired already, and large changes are no longer possible.

The decline in learning ability isn't the direct result of decreased plasticity. Plasticity of the brain is dependent upon a number of factors, and is more of an observable quality than something that controls other things.

A childs mind is pure, very cleanly flowing. While as we age, just overtime our minds become dirty and can grow inefficient if we don't maintain them. A comparison that comes to mind here is imagine you have an engine. If that engine is clean it may run flawlessly. Over time though that engine is going to get dirty and it's going to decrease in efficiency.

What meditation does is purifies the mind and organizes it while enhancing function by training how well it can concentration and how deeply it can become absorbed into whatever you're focusing on. There are 90 year old Yogic Meditation masters who have idetic memories and perfect cognition. Under brain scans it has been shown their brains seem as young as a 20 year old but function with higher cognitive efficiency than ever seen before. Meditation can be thought of as body building for the mind.

Plasticity is simply the measurement of how much a brain can adapt and learn, and how much it can adapt and learn is dependent upon a number of factors.The brains of meditators are shown to be extremely plastic as a result of being extremely focused and organized from continued practice.

Edited by Siro, 30 January 2013 - 08:39 PM.

[Lister]

The key word I would like to point out there is experience. The brain adapts to experience.

Yes, while it's growing. Adults can barely even learn new languages as most of the plasticity of the brain has been lost. I give it to you that if a child is given training at the age of four, many things are possible. But at 24 that plasticity is not there anymore as the brain has mostly been wired already, and large changes are no longer possible.

Very antiquated view.

http://www.news.illi...1211gamers.html
http://www.icdvrat.o..._N03_Torres.pdf

These and other articles are specific to redevelopment of the brain in the elderly using video games. This is only one example of how the brain can grow and change at any age.

It is my opinion that the traditional views of static IQ and the nonexistence of EQ are derived from an overall sense of insecurity. People want to feel unique and special hence they would prefer to see themselves as above a subset of people. They take a superior position whether it’s through their grades in school (IQ) or their position within society.

Also, one might ask “how are we supposed to determine individual strengths and weaknesses if we’re all the same?” I think that’s a false argument. Individuals will always have their preferences and therein lays their strengths and weaknesses. If they don’t like math they won’t be good mathematicians; it has little to do with their IQ. If they were to suddenly develop an interest in math they may become brilliant mathematicians regardless of how smart they appear to be.

Experience is a factor true but I feel that the most important factor is drive/motivation. IQ is just a stone age way of segregating groups of people.

[platypus]

Show me a 30-year old who learns languages as easily as a child. As far as I know, it just does not happen.

[anagram]

just do puzzles a day, learn something new, do hard work, use supplements(including drugs),
take melatonin, get a good night sleep, limit stress during the day, eat right, meditate, fresh air, and long walks
= peace and plasticity

[Absent]

Show me a 30-year old who learns languages as easily as a child. As far as I know, it just does not happen.

It is an extraordinarily rare occurrence. Children can learn an incorporate languages easier because their minds are free from a lot of the garbage that an adult mind has accumulated. They can practically absorb knowledge to the degree which they focus and recall it to the degree of which their mind is clear. This sort of clarity for recall and intense absorption of knowledge arises out of intense concentration. This is one of the reasons autistic savants can seemingly learn very rapidly and recall with intense precision, as well as have lightning fast reflexes(if it relates to their interest), it has to do with an intense concentration. Intense concentration is inevitably impossible without a clear mind. Training the mind to concentrate though will inevitably clear it. This is the essence of training concentration through meditation, the mind can clarify and increase in organization and power.

There are a number of meditative/yogic masters out there who are well-versed in 10-15+ languages out of simply picking them up in their studies. Though sadly many of these masters do not and will not go in labs as they prefer to stay in isolation.

Regarding your point, this are indeed very rare occurrences Training concentration doesn't really happen outside of meditation, and such intense degrees of meditation aren't very prevalent in the modern world, and have been thought of as more of a spiritual practice due to the people who usually meditate. The truth is meditation is a scientific practice of training and strengthening the mind, as weight lifting is a practice to strengthen the body. You often usually only find spiritual people meditating because strength of the mind is well connected to the strength of spiritual experiences, and other mental phenomenon.

I hope one day for meditation to lose the spiritual stigma that is stuck to it, and be well incorporated as a scientific practice for strengthing the mind, here in the west. Which has already began to happen with various programs such as TM Meditation, but not spreading fast enough in my opinion. TM Meditation is more of a money making sham than anything. The greediness around it from it's creators will prevent the scientific effects of meditation from being known spreading as fast as they should be able to.

[ben951]

Show me a 30-year old who learns languages as easily as a child. As far as I know, it just does not happen.

The guy "suffer" from Asperger's syndrome the mildest form of autism.

http://youtu.be/BPHv9KqpgqM

I guess he would probably learn another language faster than a child.
(My first language is French and he speaks perfectly) I red a comment from a German guy who said his German was perfect too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAtWuQmdexs

[Lister]

I think of the brain in exactly the same way I think of my desktop computer. Perhaps this dehumanizes us but bear with me.

When you get a computer its fast and it’s fantastic. Over time it gets slower and slower; the average person would view it as being an old pile of junk because they’re comparing it to new models and assuming they’re just that much faster. Truth is a huge reason why people’s computers are slow is because they’re completely full of junk.

If you take your average 3 year old computer and reformat it, installing the newest Operating System and the newest software updates it can more than double the speed it runs at.

This is how I view the human mind; we are all given the same specs when we’re born and we’re given the freedom to use that computer as we see fit. Other than brains that were the result of mutation every single brain is pretty much the same.

So then the difference between an adult mind and a child’s mind is the adults mind is fragmented and full of spam and malware while the child’s mind is fresh and clean.

This is why I could see us directly augmenting our minds with technology as well as externally reprograming our minds… though perhaps not in our lifetimes (publicly at least).

Can you imagine downloading a “pack” from the Apple store, uploading it to your mind and in 30 seconds and have the equivalent of a PHD? Haha perhaps that’s a tad off topic.

[Absent]

Very good fragmentation/defrag comparison Lister,

Though one of the greatest things about the human brain is, due to its structure, they can be billions of times more efficient than any computer. If the brains full physical potential could be tapped into, it could easily surpass some of today's most powerful supercomputers.....I do believe one day when our brains are fully understood, there is no reason why such technology of downloading information into the brain cannot be achieved.

After all... the key to any form of engineering is understanding. The more you understand about something, the more you influence those components you understand. Total understanding = Total potential influence.

[xEva]

I guess he would probably learn another language faster than a child.
(My first language is French and he speaks perfectly) I red a comment from a German guy who said his German was perfect too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAtWuQmdexs

His Russian was not perfect (but he said that he studied it only for a few months -- he had accent and used wrong case in a sentence). I also thought that his Italian was a bit smudged. and he speaks very simple, mundane sentences. It does not mean that he could carry a complex conversation. The guy who learned Icelandic in a week was very impressive though.


Regarding a 30-yo learning a language, if it is his first 'foreign' language then yes, it will be very tough, but if it is 3rd, 6th, etc, it will be quite easy. The more languages one already knows, the easier it is to acquire another.

[BDon]

What do you all think about Nootropics in terms of aiding to become a genius. We all seen Limitless and know the NZT-48.. However we all know a lot of people who are successful used drugs, amphetamines, etc to be bright...

Steve Jobs + LSD/Acid to make Apple what it is today?

Paul Erdos personally said he had to take amphetamines to functionalize and set his mathematical theories otherwise he took a week off and couldn't be able to funtionalize as he did.

What do you all think? Who knows perhaps Einsten did cocaine..

[Absent]

What do you all think about Nootropics in terms of aiding to become a genius. We all seen Limitless and know the NZT-48.. However we all know a lot of people who are successful used drugs, amphetamines, etc to be bright...

Steve Jobs + LSD/Acid to make Apple what it is today?

Paul Erdos personally said he had to take amphetamines to functionalize and set his mathematical theories otherwise he took a week off and couldn't be able to funtionalize as he did.

What do you all think? Who knows perhaps Einsten did cocaine..

It is most certainly possible to access a drug induced state of mind while sober, with training. It won't happen automatically, but once a person has experienced an altered state, with enough mental training, they can re-enter it without the use of the drug.

The same concept can be applied to seeing someone perform martial arts. If you have never seen someone perform martial arts before, then you cannot practice it. When you see them perform some specific move, and have memory of it, then you too, have the knowledge to practice it, and replicate it.

[Lister]

Mirror Neurons I think they're called. They are also what make yawns contagious.

THC, LSD and other substances forcibly change your state of thinking which can open the door to a broader state of mind. It’s comfortable to think of things in very narrow terms as the fewer variables involved the less thinking time required.

By human nature less work is preferred. Thus thinking broadly on an issue is not something we’d really prefer to do. We’d rather have the answer right away and skip the mental work just as we’d rather things slot together physically with as little physical work as is possible.

Think about the Lotto; we don’t want to work for the millions we just want to be given them as we think that will be better; though usually it’s not better as the pleasure of earning something is often overlooked.

So to bring this back around I’ll say that likely a broader thought pattern is directly involved in genius; so by forcibly viewing things broadly through substances like LSD we see the benefits of thinking that way. We are then motivated to think broader which brings us closer to genus.

Yes; I basically just said that smart people are just less mentally lazy than people viewed as being stupid.

It’s the simplest answer.

PS: That doesn’t mean that taking lots and lots of LSD will make you smarter, it won’t; it’s just a way of “test driving” a broader thinking version of yourself. The only way to “purchase” that version is to earn it through significant mental work.

[mastercowboy]

First, I start this with a quote:

Over the centuries, people have placed a wall around such mastery. They have called it genius, and have thought of it as inaccessible. They have seen it as the product of privilege, inborn talent, or just the right alignment of the stars. The have made it seem as if it were as illusive as magic, but that wall is imaginary. This, is the real secret: The brain that we posses is the work of 6 million years of development, and more than anything else, this evolution of the brain is designed to lead us to mastery, the latent power within us all." ~ Robert Green, from his book "Mastery"

VERY GOOD BOOK. Read it especially if you're interested in mastering any sort of skill

Many people are always looking for some way to permanently increase their intelligence. Not even LTP from various substances is permanent. Once off the substance, your brain chemical levels will revert to their normal levels and your brain will function at it's usual efficiency.

Some people might think that all geniuses or super-intelligent people are simply that way because of genetics, or luck. While this is true for a VERY small percentage of cases, it is not the case for them all.

What makes a person intelligent/genius is how their thought patterns/neuronal structures are arranged, and how areas of their brain communicate. THIS IS CHANGEABLE IN ALL PEOPLE. Clearly easier to influence at younger ages because the brain is producing more development juice, but with(or without) the aid of supplements, it can be rewired at any age... Most people don't really think about the structure of their thought processes and patterns. Or when they do they think very broadly about it, as in "I can't figure this out" bla bla bla.

If you were to take cognitively enhancing supplements/nootropics, and just practiced any random ol mental skill, no matter how much you practice it, the nootropic will not make you more efficient at it. The nootropic can however speed up the rate at which you learn, and/or increase the complexity of newly formed patterns. But ultimately what it comes down to, if the "root neuronal system" of that mental skill isn't complex in function, then all of the following steps into that, no matter how complexly structured, won't make you a genius at the skill.

Here's an example. There are memory tournaments around the world, where people will go to compete to see who has the best memory. 99% of them will tell you they are not special, and they are not savants. They did not simply try to remember over and over again making their memory super developed. What they did, was RELEARN a new method of remembering. They don't recall how a normal person would. They have a structured method to doing it. That structured method is the "root" at which they build the rest of their recall. They are not super powered in any way, they have just trained their neuronal structure for recall to function in a very specific way using various tricks to remember.

Some people might think Einstein was some Genius that nobody can compete with. That he was simply genetically gifted at math or visualization. This, again, was not the case. Einstein was a normal person in his youth. The only difference between him, and you, and is that he had this interest in science at a young age. When working at the patent office he mentally practiced doing thought experiments with visualization, and visualizing math at work. He was not gifted at math better than you or I, he simply had a different manner of solving mathematical problems by using a different brain structure.This method of his for solving was highly complex in it's execution, but he built on this, over time he became very good at it.

The brain folks, is like a very powerful computer. If you are running very simple software in it, then you're not going to get anything extravagant out of it. Overclocking that computer with drugs, supplements, and nootropics, will not increase the functioning of that software, this is simple fact. Instead, designing that software to operate in a more complex manner, will allow it to utilize more of the computer at once. Just as a simple piece of software may use 1/16th of the amount of RAM that a complex piece of software uses.

If you want to increase your intelligence, or your mental skills, nootropics will only take you so far. You need to focus on your software. Focus on the thought patterns of whatever it is you're trying to do. Practice tricks to tweak your mental exercises to make them more efficient try to incorporate different parts of your brain into the mix. THERE IS NO FORUMLA FOR THIS The brain has limitless resources so the sheer amount of mental skills that can be developed, or the complexity in functioning of thought-patterns is literally LIMITLESS.


When it comes to new thought patterns, it's like learning any skill. It may be challenging at first, but with enough practice(over a couple weeks), it can be second nature. You might wonder, how can you improve your memory if it just happens spontaneously. The only reason you experience it as happening spontaneously is because you have been doing that certain method your entire life. You can develop a new method of remembering and practice it so it is as easy to do as your current method of remembering, yet only more efficient.


This can be done with anything, and trust me when I say.... YOUR IMAGINATION IS YOUR ONLY LIMIT. Your imagination is the foundation of your mind. If you can imagine some sort of mental-task, your brain can do it, and then it's only a matter of exercising it into reality as a task you can perform in seconds. You are the programmer for your mind.


A TIP: The visual center of the brain is one of the largest and most powerful sections. Therefor it is going to be easiest and most efficient to utilize it in your mental task, over most any other part of the brain. Einstein managed to incorporate his visual center into his math through lots of practice and visualizing various problems when he was working at the patent office in switzerland. He would sit there all day and visualize the various devices he would see, imagining how they would function in his mind. He also did this with physics-thought experiments. He likely wasn't easy or effective at first.... but with PERSISTENCE, he managed to make it so effective that he could visualize devices working as if they were going in front of his eyes. Many other innovators used this trick, including Temple Grandin(albiet she had the autistic advantage), Leonardo Da Vinci(who was no different from you nor I, despite popular belief, he just used different thinking patterns), and Nikola Tesla, to name a few.


Remember... you are the controller, the programmer. You can tell your mind to function in any manner whatsoever. The possibilities are endless. Nootropics can obviously help speed up the rate at which you can learn and develop these new skills..... though without actively trying to change your thought patterns.... no nootropic will permanently increase your intelligence.


I had some really good websites that talked about different tricks you use to reprogram your mind to become more creative, have a better memory, etc... but I lost the links xD.... If I find them, I will post them and update this topic... so be on the look up.

Edit:

Here is one of the sites that talks about various mental tricks you can do to think more creatively, more hilarious, and many other things, etc. It's linked to a particular article having to do with mathematics. There are many other sub-sections in the drop-down menus at the top.
http://enchantedmind...tics_part1.html

You remind me of my teacher in school trying to convince us that all of us are equal in terms of intelligence and we just needed to study harder to be successful.Of course all of this was done in an effort to make us study,because he was sick of seeing the students' low deegrees...

Definitely all people are not equal intelligent and i don't take into account mental retarted etc.I mean about "normal" considered people.Some people just don't get it,no matter how many pills they take,harder study or courses they take.Some people are born dumb,the rest of others less dumb and there are a few that are genius.

It is good to give hope and optimism to poor mind people that can be equally intelligent with smarties but i think it is better to be realistic.I believe that smart people consider themselves average intelligent and are more modest about themselves.On the other hand,It seems that the smart ass type of people are the most arrogant too and this is one of the main reason they never improve further.

By the way,i strongly believe in face characteristics that describe a person's skills or personality and these are what you were born with.This can't be change and could be considered the 50% of your intelligence.The rest can be developed overtime and improve further.I can read faces based on experienced and have found some spots that show the deegree of intelligence or stupidity if you like!

Do you think that face characteristics change during growing according to a person's external stimuli?Big question,maybe for another thread...

[Lister]

You remind me of my teacher in school trying to convince us that all of us are equal in terms of intelligence and we just needed to study harder to be successful.Of course all of this was done in an effort to make us study,because he was sick of seeing the students' low deegrees...

Definitely all people are not equal intelligent and i don't take into account mental retarted etc.I mean about "normal" considered people.Some people just don't get it,no matter how many pills they take,harder study or courses they take.Some people are born dumb,the rest of others less dumb and there are a few that are genius.

It is good to give hope and optimism to poor mind people that can be equally intelligent with smarties but i think it is better to be realistic.I believe that smart people consider themselves average intelligent and are more modest about themselves.On the other hand,It seems that the smart ass type of people are the most arrogant too and this is one of the main reason they never improve further.

By the way,i strongly believe in face characteristics that describe a person's skills or personality and these are what you were born with.This can't be change and could be considered the 50% of your intelligence.The rest can be developed overtime and improve further.I can read faces based on experienced and have found some spots that show the deegree of intelligence or stupidity if you like!

Do you think that face characteristics change during growing according to a person's external stimuli?Big question,maybe for another thread...

I’m not so sure about that. The amount of mislabelled objectivity we have in society is insane!

If you try and explain a simple concept to someone and they just don’t get it no matter how you explain it, you may assume they’re just stupid. It’s a simple concept so they should be able to understand it right?

But then it’s a simple concept to you! That doesn’t mean it’s a simple concept to everyone else. Unless you constantly analyze your thought processes and your knowledge base you may be missing a HUGE amount of info regarding your understanding of that simple concept.

I was raised a certain way and that means that I can see societies inner workings easily. If I try and explain some simple concepts such as respect to people they often just don’t get it. To me it’s a simple concept but to them, it’s alien. This isn’t because they’re stupid; they just haven’t been exposed to things like I have.

It takes an extreme amount of patient but you can teach that person that simple concept. You just have to be able to trace back their misunderstandings and rebuild their knowledge of that idea from the base.

This is the entire purpose of school. You start at 1+1=2 and build up to complex proofs and beyond. Thus if you have an extremely complex proof which you can easily do and seems simple that doesn’t mean we can all do math on that level. Not because we’re stupid but because we haven’t built up our understanding that far.

Even if there are truly stupid people in this world don’t be foolish enough to think you can spot them. It would take tests well beyond our current understanding to prove that someone is stupid. At this point if someone isn’t good at a subject you can explain their lack of skill through many reasons. They may lack interest, drive, confidence and they may be taking on more than they can chew at any one time. Their teachers may not teach in a way that they understand. Emotions, stress/pressure, family and environmental effects can all be a factor in the learning process.

It’s so vastly hugely big that I can’t help but feel slightly annoyed at people who call others stupid. It's just not that simple! And really you're only calling them stupid because you're annoyed that they can't see things the way you do. Irritation is not proof of intelligence and neither is your need to feel special/superior.

[Absent]

You remind me of my teacher in school trying to convince us that all of us are equal in terms of intelligence and we just needed to study harder to be successful.Of course all of this was done in an effort to make us study,because he was sick of seeing the students' low deegrees...

Of course not everyone is of equal intelligence, just as not everyone is of equal body strength, muscular size, and muscular tone. I'm trying to make people realize that intelligent is not some uncontrollable quality that we just have. It develops in the brain just as any other aspect of the mind develops. Of course if you don't try to consciously influence it, it is going to only grow to a certain extent... just as if you don't try to consciously influence the knowledge that you absorb in school(by studying), then there are going to be people who naturally remember more, and people who naturally remember less. Though in school they try to get you to consciously take this process of memorizing into your own hands. All highschool is is regurgitating knowledge, for the most part. Anyone can study enough and remember something just as well as anyone else, it just might take some extra work for some people.

The entire point of this topic is emphasizing that we are not all equal intelligence, but we all have the potential for growth of our intelligence. School they just teach you to increase your knowledge, what you can recall. This is not the same as increasing your intelligence. Increasing your intelligence is the act of manipulating, modifying, and sculpting your thinking processes to make them more efficient, and powerful. They DO NOT teach you this in school.

[Adaptogen]

Do you have any more resources similar to the first link posted? There was a lot of interesting information on it but I desire more

[Absent]

My suggestion is to google, and look around. There are lots of books on the subject with a lot of amazing tricks in them that you can do with your mind to get it to do really neat things.

[GaDoomZ]

Nature trumps nurture. Nurture has a role, obviously; but you've exaggerated it.

Forgive me if I am wrong here, but according to the OP, he's not saying anyone could achieve this. But with persistence, and a new methodology of thinking/rewiring the brain. You will be potentially better off than you are now. Nature started it off, but its up other variables/yourself how you choose to deal with it

My suggestion is to google, and look around. There are lots of books on the subject with a lot of amazing tricks in them that you can do with your mind to get it to do really neat things.

Any books that you can personally vouch for?

Edited by GaDoomZ, 07 February 2013 - 04:23 AM.

[Junk Master]

"Einstein frequently lamented his own problems in mathematics throughout his career..." and was notoriously sloppy with his equations. I'd say you can make a stronger case for Einstein having been on the autistic spectrum given his many eccentricities, lack of social skills etc., than being a paragon of self-actualization.

Many on the spectrum have co-morbid OCD as well as sensory issues which can allow them to seek refuge by tuning out the world through intense concentration/visualization to the point of obsession with a topic (their "thing"). Einstein's was physics.

[Lister]

"Einstein frequently lamented his own problems in mathematics throughout his career..." and was notoriously sloppy with his equations. I'd say you can make a stronger case for Einstein having been on the autistic spectrum given his many eccentricities, lack of social skills etc., than being a paragon of self-actualization.

Many on the spectrum have co-morbid OCD as well as sensory issues which can allow them to seek refuge by tuning out the world through intense concentration/visualization to the point of obsession with a topic (their "thing"). Einstein's was physics.

I could see that being the case. We are all built to think about survivability and all the other natural instincts that likely use up a huge amount of our thinking time. If you were able to tune that out completely think of the things you could do!

[kurdishfella]

Drugs can't make you smarter with one exception if you lack those things due to genetic mutation. What drugs can do and genetic engineering is create an stronger brain but that doesnt nessecarily make you smarter it just means you have a brain that can learn more easier and faster but its probably not much. maybe if we can implement something merge brain with techonology we can become smarter but in the end it is the mind and personality of the person that makes someone smart or not which cant be affected.

 

 a single smart act does not make someone into a genius, it just means they have been through it and know how to react to such situation

Edited by kurdishfella, 17 June 2023 - 06:57 PM.

[adamh]

Seems kind of silly to say einstein wasn't so smart, just an average guy who studied really hard. Lots of young people are interested in physics and science, they concentrate on it very hard but almost none of them will turn out to be a genius.

 

I agree study and training increase your ability to do mental things. Its better to start young but you can start at any time. I learned a new language at 40 and I learn new things every day so this "you will lose your plasticity" thing is not absolute. And I've met many others who have done the same and more at a not so young age

 

Drugs do give a temporary boost to intelligence. Stimulants make you work harder, some drugs help with memory. If you take a sedative before an iq test you will do worse than usual and if you have a cup or two of coffee instead, your results will show a boost on average.

 

Much of what I've read here sounds like wishful thinking. If you study hard you will be as smart as einstein. If you learn to think a little differently, you will have a perfect memory. You will improve by studying, there are memory tricks which do help and practice makes a difference with that too. But no amount of study and motivation will make the average person have an iq of 200 as was claimed.

 

Give people encouragement, not a false hope

Edited by adamh, 23 June 2023 - 11:08 PM.